First and foremost - I've been following your posts and I'm very proud of you.<P>Next, on to your question...I wasn't sure, so I asked Robert.<P>He tends to agree with some of the other responses here (I didn't read him the responses, but he said pretty much the same thing.).<P>Though he honestly felt it did at the time, the feelings he had for PT never ever reached the "deep abiding love" that we had for each other. He THOUGHT they had, but they faded too quickly once he was working on our marriage.<P>He does care about this girl - they shared a part of life. I would be not only surprised but a bit disappointed if he didn't. I care about my first husband, my first "love", dear friends who I don't see anymore. But, according to him, that's the extent of the feelings right now. <P>The love he had for her in the beginning was real...I would never say it wasn't. But it never progressed to that higher level. Now, Nomas, you have to remember that he truly BELIEVED it was at that higher level at the time....otherwise he would never have considered giving up all that he was losing when he left us and moved in with her. He was willing to sacrifice his dreams, his future, his family, his parents, friends, brothers and sisters b/c of the feelings for this woman. THOSE feelings no longer exist - replaced by something akin to fond remembrances instead. Nothing wrong with that.<P>Keep working at your marriage. He also said something else I found very interesting....and very powerful.<P>"Once I decided to give you and our marriage all my thoughts and efforts, the intensity of my feelings for her changed almost immediately."<P>I remember. The withdrawal just seemed to disappear, he became more relaxed and happy. <P>Good luck. You're doing a good thing.<P>Love and prayers,<P>Lori

Matthew 6:21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.<P>Move towards thinking your wife is the treasure by thinking about her, dwelling on her fine points.<P>You know, I don't think of any of my old boyfriends fondly. Somewhere, somehow I attatched a "don't go there" response in my brain. I do not have any desire to let another man besides my H live in my heart. <P>NoMas, I am sure this will take time, but it is moving toward how you want to feel and not giving up that counts.<P>One problem I have with the His Needs/Her Needs idea is that the process focuses on the negative...what we aren't getting. Although we need to do that and grow and change to solve our relationship difficiencies, I think it is also important to dwell on the good in a relationship and in a person and magnify and celebrate even the little things. Then the rough areas are not quite as painful to examine.<P>Philipians 4:8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.<BR>

Lori and NoMas,<P>Robert's answer was just about the same as mine, 11 years ago. The head doctor finally asked me, "Do you want to be married or not?" Once I answered that question, the rest was dealing with the answer and the fallout.<P>Once I made the choice, the only thoughts of the OW were when I was alone, and sexually aroused. Otherwise, it was never really there.<P>I am not proud of it, but then again, I understand it and I am human, it was one of the greatest learning experiences, because it was one of failure, mine, to communicate, and to understand myself, and my relationship. However, I understand my marriage now 100X better now after 10 years and after reading about 10 more books.<P>Of all the reading I have done, and I never read for pleasure, and I love to study and analyze to understand, Harley's work makes the most sense. I see it every day, very clearly. And one of my biggest learning books, was "Private Lies." It made me realize the fantasy, and actually explained to my why I did it.<P>NoMas,<P>before you make ANY decisions, do your homework. Read all the books you can to find your reasons and your whys. Then be able to explain it to your wife. If you can't then you are acting without thinking and understanding, that what makes the biggest mistakes.<P>thl<BR>

Hi NoMas,<P>Very good question, and the answer is probably as individual as each of us and affected by the "type" of affair.<P>It seems obvious that the most damaging kind of affair is the strong emotional one and that is the kind you are involved in. My husband's affair was more of an ego-stroking, hero-worshiping, younger-woman chasing ME, relationship with one physical encounter that scared him into an idiotic panic. So it is a very different kind of problem. He never had a romantic kind of love for her, though I believe she DID think she was in love with him at the time, but now knows better.<P>ANYWAY, you are a very smart man and I know you have done all the reading. You know that your feelings are based on a fantasy situation created by long distance communication and only knowing the best of the other person. The two of you don't face the problems and unpleasantries of real life, only the images of the perfect life you COULD have with each other.<P>That said, as long as that fantasy exists, you will continue to have the same kind of feelings. And as long as you do, it will be a big obstacle in repairing your marriage.<P>I have often read comments from people on this site that you can love more than one person, and I believe that is true. However, as long as you try to love two people maritally and romantically you will be doing BOTH of them (and yourself) a great injustice.<P>Both your wife and the other woman must be wonderful people. Don't they both deserve to have a whole, complete, monogomous relationship? And don't you deserve that too?<P>Peppermint

Faith....I really have appreciated all that you have shared with me.<BR>*******<BR>[QUOTE]Originally posted by FaithHopeLove:<BR>NoMas, I'm not saying you haven't done this, but I really can not recall any post that you have said anything really nice about your wife.<BR>************<P>You bring up an interesting point....about my lack of ‘praise’ for my wife here. Well....I guess if that came so naturally at this stage of my life....I guess I wouldn’t be here to begin with. :-)<P>Make note...that you don’t hear me ‘trashing her’ here either. This relationship that I ended up in was never about trying to get away from some ”horrible” woman. I told the OW that I really had a good marriage and could not really fault me wife...other than mentioning how over time....neglect and business took it’s toll on my heart. Yes...there were some unmet needs. But I have never blamed my wife or used that to justify my EA. Gosh....I get roasted here when I would spill my guts out for expressing my feelings for this OW. Imagine the response I would get if in the next breath, I was singing the praises of my wife. Everyone would have really thought I was mixed up.<P>But, in response to your point....there really are some wonderful qualities about her. I always looked forward to growing old with her...and getting the kids grown and gone so we could enjoy our latter years together. It is something we have always talked about. She has been a wonderful mother. She became my best friend over the years. Neither of us would have ever guessed...or dreamed in our wildest dreams...that we would be where we are today. Who ever does? We let our guard down. There was an obvious “crack in the armor”. We are dealing with the fallout of all that now. If I have ever expressed anything ‘negative’ about her, it was the fact that I was very disappointed that she did not seem available or willing to help me when I first cried out to her for help. I have made this known to her personally. I’m sure it comes across as blame or an excuse. But we are learning ...some very painful lessons.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by NoMas (edited July 05, 2000).]

This has been a somewhat encouraging thread. There have been some statements that I really like. I have a hard time with the fact that my H loves this OP. I don't really understand it, and I think it just sucks when Dr. Harley says he will always love her. I could deal with that if it was a "love" like I loved my ex-boyfriends that will die in time. I sincerely hope that is the case and your posts have been encouraging in that being so. <P>I recently asked my H if he ever thinks about the OP. He says he does sometimes. He misses her friendship. I think that's encouraging. I know he will never forget her, but if he could someday say she was only meeting the emotional needs that I wasn't, I would think that was a great progress, and I could live with that. I guess it's one of those things that time will work on.<P>Thank you for your words. You guys are great. Hang in there NoMas. You can do this. I hope your W is able to start meeting your needs, so you think of the OP in the past tense and not in the present tense. Good luck. I will keep you in my prayers.

NoMas' comments remind me of my H, although he is not at a place where he is willing to work on our marriage and give up OW.<P>I read that part of Dr. H's book too. I think it means if you end the A the right way and stop all contact, the love will always be there because nothing was done to allow it to die. If the A dies a natural death, I assume the love does too. This is very difficult for me to accept too. This is why my H is so scared right now. He feels we will have to leave town if we stay together because he couldn't be that near to OW. <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> Gosh....I get roasted here when I would spill my guts out for expressing my feelings for this OW. Imagine the response I would get if in the next breath, I was singing the praises of my wife. Everyone would have really thought I was mixed up.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Who in their right mind would roast you for praising your W?!!! Uh, Waiter! Reality check, please! It's what you NEED to do!! <P>A good mother. That's good. But what made you CHOOSE her, NoMas? Try it again--as if you just met her for the first time today. <BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> I was very disappointed that she did not seem available or willing to help me when I first cried out to her for help. I have made this known to her personally. I’m sure it comes across as blame or an excuse. But we are learning ...some very painful lessons.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This is good. But this is the nature of marriage...it is OUR responsiblitity to make our needs known--to keep trying to get our point across till it gets taken seriously. Our spouses may not hear our "first" cry for help. Some of us didn't even know what kind of help we needed or that we even had a need to begin with!! Let alone how to communicate that need! But we do now. If your W had known her marriage was in peril--that this incredible painful episode would come because of these unmet needs, she would have locked you in a room with her and wouldn't let you out until you both had hashed out an understanding. She would have made sacrifices. She would have negotiated. But you would have to as well.<P>My H had an EA/PA that lasted almost a year. When it was ended (discovered by his boss) he said "that's it" committed himself to his marriage and was determined to use all his expressions of love for me and love only me. That took cajones. That in turn, made me shoulder some responsibility for some of the weaknesses in our marriage and strengthens me to keep working just as hard as he is. If you want to know, ask and I will tell you what I did to contribute to the A. Thanks to Dr. H--I recognized it, I owned up to it, corrected it and my H has the W he needs and deserves. And I have the H I've always needed but never had.<P>Did you read that post "A betrayer speaks" ? I don't know your spiritual side but you may find some part in there that will flick a switch for you. I hope so.<BR> <BR> <P>This message has been edited by Leilana (edited July 05, 2000).]<P>[This message has been edited by Leilana (edited July 05, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Leilana (edited July 05, 2000).]

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Hi NoMas,<P>well, you've got it from both sides today haven't you.<BR>Don't despair, everyone has their own opinions, and most of them are not wrong. They may not make you feel better when you hear about them, but that is what we value about each other right? Our differences, our thoughts, our varied experiences and opinions.<P>As for your question. I have absolutely no idea what my H initially felt, or still does feel for OW #1 (the one that broke us up)<BR>He will not discuss anything in any way, shape or form. He simply says he does not know. Uh huh - how do I deal with that?<P>I have told myself that he must have THOUGHT that he loved her. Why else would he throw away 9 years of marriage, 2 very young children and me. We had a great marriage, (well, in hindsight obviously not so great!!) were great friends, great lovers, (well, to each other) and respected each other. He got a job in another state, had 2 years of hell, and then was sacked. He was physically and emotionally exhausted. And we had grown apart in the 2 years, as he had no time for me or our family. He then moved back to our original home town, got a new job, and got a new woman!!<BR>I'm not really surprised that the A happened - he was so vulnerable, and she was a fruitloop. She just latched on. We were only apart 6 weeks while I stayed and sold our house interstate, but that was enough for him to want to leave our marriage and start a new life with someone else. We did try for 8 weeks after I moved back to be with him, but he just didn't want to be there. So I left, and came home to where I grew up, some 2000kms away. He has now moved here, but still says the famous 3 words "I DON'T KNOW"<P>He says he is attempting to get back into my life (not sure what that means as when I ask, he says, yep, you guessed it, I DON"T KNOW")<P><BR>I would love to know what his feelings were for the other woman. He has told me in the past that they discussed moving in together, but it never happened. He has also told me that he had thoughts of wanting to marry her (qualifies it by saying, but they were only thoughts) What the heck does that mean???<P>As you can see, I'm not much help to you. I have come to conclusions, and assumptions all on my own. He quite often tells me that I'm making assumptions, and that they are generally wrong, but does absolutley nothing to let me know what are the facts, or the right assumptions. So, I don't think about too much anymore., And am filing for divorce on Sep 3 2000, which I have to admit, I can't wait for. I need some closure on this. My thinking on this is, rightly or wrongly, when I divorce him, I won't have to think about 'it' anymore. I won't have to question anymore. It will be over.<BR>Yes, I probably will always wonder exactly what happened, and why, but I don't think I will ever know. He is not willing to share that with me, and that is something I just have to accept.<P>Keep on doing what you are doing. While you are still questioning, you are learning and growing. And that can only be good. Leilana has some very valid points doesn't she! I like what she writes. But don't let her opinions get you down too much. Take on board what she says, sift through it, and use what you want. But be honest with yourself.<P>hugs to you, I think you need them at the moment. Take care, and keep coming here.<P>Jo

Dawnn I have deleted much of my original post just because one person took offense. This IS America, but what you said was I all needed to hear to censure myself and do damage control. I have never before been accused of attacking anyone...here or anywhere. I am rather passionate about my beliefs and I may have an off the wall sense of humor but that's about it. I'm really horrified it was taken with the intent to do damage! <P> I admit to trying to get a reaction out of NoMas. I was trying to be thought provoking and was hoping for rip-roaring rebuttal! Unfortunately it was interpreted as just being provoking. Talk about a reality check!! Perhaps I should take a vacation from the forum for a while. Believe it or not, alot of people in my community and family members come to me for help and advice! <BR> <BR>Guess my days as a charm school instructor are over!<P>You are new to the forum, welcome. I'm sorry for the situation that necessitated you coming here. There is so much to learn here. I learn with every post. It IS a place to vent. It is a place to encourage, it is a place to celebrate. It is a place to cry. It is a place to share. It is also a place to be honest--with others but mostly with yourself. Otherwise there's no growth.<P>I open myself up to attack all the time. I reveal my despair and hurts embarrassments, all my soft vulnerable spots. (I'm masochistic that way!) And I've been attacked by someone in MB for defending the OW--because I actually LIKE her! But I've always cared and I've always been honest. I would never intentionally do harm. Please do a search under my name--you'll see me for who and what I really am. Do the same for NoMas so you know his story as well. Then you can tear into me again!! But seriously, it bothers me alot that someone would see me that way. <P>If I said anything that wasn't true, I sincerely apologise to you, Dawnn as well as to you, NoMas. I feel icky. <P> <p>[This message has been edited by Leilana (edited July 05, 2000).]

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<P>Okay, wait...hold everything...just a minute here.<P>I do NOT want to get in the middle of something that is none of my business, but I want to add something here.<P>While NSR is away we are supposed to be holding down the fort. Think about the loving replies he ALWAYS answers with regardless of how much personal pain he is in. We are acting like a bunch of brats whose parents have left them alone for too long.<P>If I was a newbie and saw this sort of stuff right away, I'd be looking for another forum.<P>Yeah, we are human. I was not very nice to an OW poster at one time too, and felt horrible. My H had moved out the same day a betrayer was lamenting about her married man and I posted an awful reply to her. NSR gently reminded me of why we are here. I was very gently chided and felt loved even though I was in the wrong.<P>Let's have patience and understanding of each other. Let's make NSR proud, as you know he'll be checking up on how we did when he returns.<P>allison<P>

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uh.....did I start something here?<P>:-)<P>Sure got bunches of replies to think about!<BR>

NoMas,<BR>I gotta say I couldn't quite understand why on earth you think you would have been flamed for saying nice things about your wife here.<P>I'm glad you don't mind my posts too much. I was thinking I was getting on your nerves.<P>Want to know something? I usually stay away from threads and posters that I don't have a good feeling about. I can see your marriage working out. I think you got way way off track, and it is sad to see you floundering, trying to find your way, but I think you can find your way back. I can just feel it.<P>Take care!

Hi Faith....<P>Let me clarify what I was talking about on that.<P>Obviously, I had some very strong feelings for the OP. I voiced those here. If I was also adding all the nice things about my wife, I could just hear the responses asking me: "IF your wife is so great, then what in the H**L are you doing with this OW?"<P>Like I said....this EA was not about trashing my wife or looking for reasons to leave her. I just didn't really realize how 'stale' things had gotten, until I "fell into a ditch" with this other person.<P>My wife still thinks I "went looking". I cannot convince her that was the farthest thing from the truth. If I am certain about anything, I know that I know...I was not out looking. It....just .....happened!<P>

NoMas,<BR>18 months along this road...I believe you. Anytime around D-day...there is no way I could have believed you if you were my H. I really think it is pointless AT THIS POINT to try to make your wife understand. She can't and she won't in the near future. That's just the way it is.<P>Although you can obviously make things worse, in the short term, I think you both need to recover from the trauma this infidelity has caused both of you, before you try to work on the nuts and bolts of the marriage. There will be plenty of time for that and you might find you wife is more than a willing partner if you loving and patient and remorseful instead of trying to get her to see her part or to work on your needs. <P>NoMas, sometimes when we find we aren't getting a lot out of something...almost anything...it is really because we are not giving enough. All these months when you were distracted by first the attraction and then the affair, even before, were you truly giving to your wife and your marriage? I know, I know, you protest "but neither was my wife". That could be, but you are not responsible for what you wife gives. You are only responsible for what you put into the relationship.<P>The truth is, if only one partner in a relationship changes, then the relationship changes. This can be for the good, or not. <P>What I am getting at is that you think it is sooo important for your wife to understand. I believe she will come to understand in her own time, but that in no way stops you from rebuilding the marriage. Plan A her! You may be amazed at the results.<P>But you say "I'm weak, I'm the one that needs the help". True, but it is often that in giving that we receive. It is in setting the example that we in fact learn. <P>You have spent months dwelling on yourself. I really think that you will find more answers, more results if you step beyond yourself and reach outward and of course Upward. <P>I have gotten the impression that your marriage problems are indeed a symtom of a larger emptiness within yourself and even though there may have been things your wife could have/should have done, it was always really more about you and were you are in life.<P>I know you are a man of faith. Don't you think that maybe the relationship you have to get right first is between you and God? You must have felt so distant from him for quite a while now.<P>If you get your faith back on track, you may not feel as needful and dependent on the actions or reactions of mere humans, your wife included.<P>I hope this retreat sets the stage for renewal and recommitment in all areas of your life.<P> <P>

Faith....<P>That was very well put....and I hear and receive everything you shared here. <P>Thank you.<P>Not to defend myself...but to just add one further point....<P>Yes....I have felt that my 'connection' with God has been weak....not sure why that is. It is easy to move along and take for granted that God is 'leading us'. I am reminded of the incident found in Luke, where after a 12 year old Jesus was taken to Jerusalem for the passover....his family returned home and went a 'full day's journey' before realizing they had left Jesus behind. If the very mother of Jesus could do that....then who are we to think it cannot happen to us. <BR>God's plan was for us to follow Him, not the other way around. Somewhere along the path, God 'zigged' and I 'zagged'. I know finding Him first is essential.<BR>But even with that...it was God who looked down at Adam in the Garden and even with that relationship God had with him, He still declared that it was "not good for man to be alone." <BR>I think various circumstances in my life at this point brought on much loneliness for me.<P>I am just thankful that God always writes the last chapter in our lives. I hope it will be a really good one for me.<P>Thank you again for your words....I have taken them to heart.<p>[This message has been edited by NoMas (edited July 06, 2000).]