I, for one, would love it if some of the fellows could chime in here and enlighten us about "Male Brain Damage."<P>Because I sure as heck don't get it.

Cindy...Never apologize about going on about yourself. I have learned a great deal from you.<P>WS...thanks for the permission for the whack!<P>I have to be nice for the majority of five days straight now that he is off.<P>Maybe I should give him the whack right away and disapate my emotions

Dazed, JL was trying his best, and he shared more on the intimacy thread in Recovery, but I'm with you...<P>MEN...'plain this to us!<P>We wont male bash...promise

FHL,<P>Yeah right! As soon as I get that claw hammer out of the back of my head, I should be back to functioning normally. <P>I tried on that other thread. I recommended a book I found on men. I bought it because the title just made me laugh, it is called "Men made easy". I am no expert on such books and I am sure the same information is in others, but this lady seemed to have it put together pretty well. <P>You might want to take a look at it. Naturally, it is a "thin" book. It took me about an hour to read it but I wasn't pay attention to some of the ideas for "fixing" things. I don't need fixing thank you. <P>Best I can do ladies.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

I have a book called WHAT MEN DON'T WANT WOMEN TO KNOW: THE SECRETS, THE LIES, THE UNSPOKEN TRUTH by Smith & Doe (presumably John Smith & John Doe, their author photos includes Harpo Marx glasses & mustaches) The back of the book says "warning all women your perceptions about the men in your life are about to change forever. Disclaimer: the contents of this book may make you physically ill and cause irreparable emotinal and psychological damage. What you are about to read is absolutely 100% true, although no man will ever admit it and no woman will want to believe it."<P>The book is very funny & ghastly if true. It also includes a Fidelity Test you can take for your man based on his behavior. The score was accurate for my H's old behavior...<P>And the conclusion of the book, very MB Plan A stuff put in the words of "think of your man as your dog...you must not underestimate the power of an intelligent, well-executed training program."<P>So, there you go. No 2 X 4's, go for the "treats" .

Speaking of books, I haven't read much fiction lately (no time), but I picked up "I know this much is true" by Wally Lamb.<P>I really enjoyed it because the main character is male and the author really gets inside his head (before this I had only read female authors that could do it with female characters, George Eliot for instance).<P>You really feel for the guy, at the same time I didn't like him, but I couldn't put it down.

FHL -<P>I'm so sorry about your dog! I'm a dog lover and I know how hard it is to even consider putting them to sleep. My suggestion is to go to your vet and see if they have someone who does pet sitting. These are usually folks who love animals (or else they wouldn't bother! ) and do a great job of caring for them. <P>As far as bumping my H over the head with a hammer - I'm game! My H also forgets that I told him something about our schedules and then argues me up and down about it. My all time favorite was when he said that Mission Impossible with Tom Cruise was a James Bond movie! He argued with me over that for ages and then when the sequal came out, he finally gave in! When will they come out with little microchips that we can implant into our H's and program them to be Mr. Perfect! Hmmm - maybe I need to go to school for biomedical engineering ... <P>Vee

And how many times have I posted here that men are like dogs -- they train better through positive reinforcement than punishment????<P>And this guy gets PAID for writing what I've been saying all along. <P>Sheesh.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>And the conclusion of the book, very MB Plan A stuff put in the words of "think of your man as your dog...you must not underestimate the power of an intelligent, well-executed training program."<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This reminds me of an old movie. I can't remember the name of it. But a woman recommended that her newlywed daughter train her husband by using the same techniques as a dog trainer would. She recommended a book on dog training and told her to think of her H as a dog. Toward the end of the movie, the couple was very happy and the daughter realized that in training her husband she had also trained herself. VERY Plan A!<P>

Well he woke up...well physically, anyway. I really haven't talked to him since early Tuesday morning or late Tuesday afternoon...can't remember...haven't seen him awake because he is on the 12 hour night shift.<P>Anyway he asked how I was. I told him, "To be perfectly honest, I am still angry."<P>Angry? Why? (Yup, he was serious)<P>I imagined one good whack with the 2X4, but instead said calmly "About the Art Fair." (I actually added on some additional words in my head, but we won't go there)<P>"Why are you angry?"<P>Another imagary whack, "Because you didn't even think to consider something that was so important to me. Plus I am really disappointed about not going."<P>Oh........(some silence) Well you know, there really wasn't anything I could do...I was the person designated to cover blah blah blah.<P>"I understand that even if you would have remembered my plans, you would still have had to change your schedule."<P>"And I said I was sorry."<P>"I don't think you were sorry enough (OK I know that sounds a bit unfair) AND you didn't make any attempt see if we could resolve the problem."<P>"Well, is there anything we can do?" <P>"I think she may be OK at boarders for a day and a night. Daughter said she would stay home, but since the idea is to spend time with D's, that misses the point. Could you call the boarder and see if it would work?"<P>"Why can't you."<P>"I could, but whenever I talk about the dog I start crying and it is embarrassing."<P>Oh<P>I know that you think that it is better to do everything yourself. You don't like to need and you don't like to be needed. But that kind of thinking doesn't make teamwork easy. This is hard for me and not that big of a deal for you. Maybe there is something that is easier for me (like most of the details of your life...whack...) than for you and I'll return the favor.<P>"OK...I'll call"<P>He hasn't yet.<P>Oh well, all in all I guess it went OK.<P>Thanks for listening!<BR>

Cripes. <P><BR>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{FHL}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

You have always been there for me, sensitive and helpful, so I will tell you what I think and you can either take it or leave it, if you wish!<BR>When my H does things like this (let's be honest, I am sure alot of H's do this occassionally) and it really hurts, like you are hurting now, I make a point. I say something along the line of "Honey, I don't mean to harp on this. I know your sorry, but I need to show how truly hurt I am. Your lack of thought about me bothers me, even though I understand completely why you have to work. I need you to understand that this event was so important to me and that I am hurting because it appears as though you didn't understand the importance of it to me." <BR>I have had events like this and it used to be when I told him about it and he explained his stand I would back off, feeling hurt and not expressing it completely. You need to tell him the depth of your pain so you can get it out in the open. Hope this helps, God Bless!<P>------------------<BR>Chick's <BR>Bren<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!

Thank you for the hug, Lor<P>Thank you, Bren. I will do that. I think he gets it, now...kind of, sort of.<P>I just wish he could learn from this experience and expand on it.<P>Ironically I think he learned a lot from his affair. Maybe it needs to be a BIGGIE for him to get it.<P>I'm not as angry. I was afraid I'd be bummed the whole time he was home. <P>

fhl,<BR>Your dilemma touches my heart. I too have done the wheelbarrow routine with a dog that weighs a lot more than 50 lbs! My heart goes out to you.<P>I'm probably going to reveal why I have problems in my own marriage as I state my opinion, but here goes. You have more than one issue here. The rearranging of schedules is one thing. Your H readily admits that he forgot. Maybe he also felt like he couldn't say no. Some industries are very demanding when it comes to the commitment expected from employees. Even if the need to reschedule was perceived, rather than real, his decision is understandable. <P>The real problem isn't the schedule, though, is it? He might have thought he was doing the right thing by being honest "Oh, I forgot about the art fair." What these words symbolize, however, is his lack of consideration for you. By his own admission, you never entered his thoughts when he made a decision that affects you. People can espouse this "manthink" theory til they're blue in the face, but I just don't buy it. I know men and women think differently. But when a H does something that hurts his wife deeply, dismissing it as "manthink" is just a feeble excuse in my book for unacceptable behavior. <P>I think it was Karenna in another post that sums it up so well -- we get what we tolerate. In the big picture of your marriage, accepting behavior that causes so much pain will lead to trouble down the road. I feel it's one of the biggest mistakes I've made in my own marriage. It's the old "sweeping things under the rug" syndrome. <P>As a matter of principle, fhl, I don't think you should fix this problem alone. Your H has said he's sorry, but what do his actions say?? When words say one thing, and actions say another, I look at actions every time. fhl, I hope that you make him understand how hurt you are, and why. According to the "manthink" theory, he just didn't realize the impact of his decision. Fine. He might be able to make a better decision next time if you tell him how you feel. Let me rephrase that. Tell him how you feel, and make sure he understands what you're saying (how dense is that "manthink" barrier, anyway? I'm not saying it'll be easy!)<P>

Lonesome Heart<P>You are absolutely right. <P>In his defense, he really "had" to change his schedule, given all the factors.<P>I was DISAPPOINTED about that, not hurt or angry. I was HURT when he hadn't even remembered something that we had talked about over and over that he knew was so important to me and he knew I depended on him to help me arrange.<P>I was ANGRY when he initially shrugged it off with a simple "I'm sorry."<P>How long did you do the wheel barrel thing? What was wrong with your dog?<P>My old pup has some sort of degenerative spinal disease (probably). I don't think she feels much from the waist down, no pain, anyway, although she does have some control over her facilities so there must be some sensation.<P>She last walked independently in January and with a bit of assistance through February and then with support of her right hind quarters until spring sometime. She was on predisone, but I she was still declining and I think it was making her anxious. The vet and I decided to just let her go and although she declined a little faster, she seemed more relaxed. Her heart and lungs still sound good (at least several weeks ago when last checked).<P>When she looks at me, she still melts my heart.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lonesome heart:<BR><B>But when a H does something that hurts his wife deeply, dismissing it as "manthink" is just a feeble excuse in my book for unacceptable behavior. <P>I think it was Karenna in another post that sums it up so well -- we get what we tolerate. In the big picture of your marriage, accepting behavior that causes so much pain will lead to trouble down the road. I feel it's one of the biggest mistakes I've made in my own marriage. It's the old "sweeping things under the rug" syndrome. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>FHL,<P>Lonesome Heart said exactly what I've been trying to say. Don't know why I just can't express myself sometimes.<P>I know you take issue with the practicality of POJA when it comes to recreational stuff, so put that aside for the moment. Let's look at POJA only in terms of behavior.<P>You are NOT being too sensitive. I completely agree with previous posts that he needs to know how and why this hurt you and that "sorry" includes a change in behavior. Maybe the end result of having to work would be the same, but next time you would want him to discuss a change of plans like that before he committs (sp?).<P>My h has a very demanding job (hours, travel). He used to just inform me at the last minute. Now, we sit down and review upcoming demands (especially travel) and he has been taking us with him on many trips. Believe me, it is an administrative nightmare to coordinate the flights and award tickets each time, but he does it. He has learned (hallelujah!) that the family is the most important and the job must be made to fit somehow.<P>Maybe your h still needs a change in perspective. I agree with lonesome heart that "sucking it up, well she said sweeping it under the rug" causes problems in the long run. That was my biggest mistake, I ALLOWED him to treat me like I was unimportant.<P>Remember the time you replied to one of my posts that you had been there and had the t-shirt, and I replied back that I was a bit sensitive to folks saying they had been there?<P>It was this very issue that triggered me that day. Most of the difficulties I've had these past months have not been so much getting past the pain of the EA/PA ,but the sensation of banging my head on the wall every time he has failed POJA and I've tried to patiently express myself and help him to do better next time.<P>It is haaaard, but I have seen some real changes. For me, the new road started with the A. I could no longer live like this. I had allowed him to not consider me or my feelings over and over, to me the A was the ultimate violation of POJA.<P>I hope I'm not coming on too strong, I feel very deeply about this. <P><P>------------------<BR>Cindy

Dear FHL,<P>What your husband did and said are exactly the kind of thing I would do. I'm always forgetting things, like anniversaries, birthdays, vacations, and plans. My H remembers everything, his plans never overlap, and he's very thoughtful. I'm the one who double schedules and forgets. (I'm working hard on this failing right now.)<P>Don't take it personal. Some people have a hard time remembering details and wehre plans overlap, dovetail, cross over, etc.. <P><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

"I NEED you to recognize my feelings, by acting more remorseful." <P>Ta Da! You wrote the script - and now maybe he understands? Maybe a little more than before?<P>Good.<P>My husband is pretty much as clueless as they come. About a month ago when we were driving, I said "shhhh", "listen". Buy me a rose was playing. He said, gee that's a cool song. I said, "That is my song."<P>Yesterday, he came home from work and had written all the words down to the song. He asked my son and I to sit down. Then he sang the song to me. He had tears in his eyes. He said he felt so bad because he had realized how badly he has treated me for so long.<P>Light bulb? He is human? He is getting it? He was pretty clueless and hopeless, right? Can you believe this? Wow! So, I guess what I am saying FHL, is there is hope! It takes a long time, and we do 99% of the work - but "love" hopes in all things.<P>I was at my son's wedding in May, listening to our pastor preach a sermon on marriage. I had been mulling over my mind - "was I in my relationship with my husband because of things I hoped for - and wondering if things would ever materialize, and wondering if I was delusional." <P>Pastor talked about how marriages can be bad, but true love always hopes.<P>It hit me, "No, I'm not delusional, I'm hopeful and that is because I truly love. It is okay! I can love my husband and my marriage now - and know that it is okay!!! It is alright to be hopeful, and it is not delusional!" It was like a lightbulb went on in my head, and realized that I truly did love my husband, and that is what God wants me to do. I felt much more resolved about being married. So much peace and joy.<P>FHL, my husband went to a seminar with his boss yesterday. It was a seminar on "emotional intelligence". Hmmmm. <P>My husband explained the "gut feeling we have", truly is the physical response we have as a result of an emotional feeling. The emotions first hit our body, starting with our stomach's. Wow! He is really trying to get in touch with his feelings, and he is not going to discount my feelings as much any more!<P>There is always hope, FHL. don't give up.<BR>TNT

Schizzo, <BR>You are right, and I am starting to get it. I may have been enabling bad behavior by licking my wounds and sucking it up.<P>Although I am still on comfortable with a strict POJA when two people are so different, I do need to be more assertive BEFORE I get my feelings hurt and AFTER they are hurt.<P>I should have written this on his calander (he should have, too). Even though the outcome would have been the same, if he would have come home and explained the problem and what he needed to do, ALONG with some ideas to solve the new problem created by the schedule change, AND some true sympathy for my feelings and imposed sacrifice, I would have completely understood.<P>Even if he came home and when he realized that he didn't even remember and showed he was sorry for being insensitive I would have understood.<P>I think he gets it, but I will go over this with him one more time to make sure he understands where and when I expect him to take ownership or at least co-ownership of a problem.<P>I can dig in my heals when it really matters, but I have learned to choose my battles carefully....maybe too carefully.<P>I really don't mind being flexible and I am easily content and don't need to control situations. Those are my strengths and I need to put them into my relationships.<P>However, I need to look at the flip side and my potential to be steam rolled...and I need to work on that.<P>Actually a few people in my life have made the mistake of taking my good nature for stupidity or timidity. They have been sorry. When I do dig in my heals, I can dig them in pretty hard.<P>However, I have never felt like I have had a stick in my marriage. Really, what am I going to do if H doesn't comply? Leave? No. Stop functioning in my marriage? No...I am still responsible for what I put into my marriage, even if I get nothing back.<P>I also want to give to me freely, not because I am demanding.<P>However, I know there is middle ground I need to explore more fully. <P>Anyway, thank you for caring so much and I really am listening and learning.<P>TNT,<BR>Wow, I can't even imagine it. I hope in your H's case it is the tip of the iceberg.<P>I loved what you said about hope and not being delusional.<P>God can always work wonders, can't he?<P>I so love what is going on in your life.<P>I love you guys....<BR>GROUP HUG!!!!!<P><BR>

I am not sure what I can add to all of the great insignt and advice everyone has offered you. I just wanted to add to the many others here who have thanked you for your words of wisdom.<P>You replied to one of my posts many months ago and I found your reply so insigntful and encouraging, I printed it and carried it around in my purse to read over and over.<P>I wish I could have relpied sooner in order to offer you some equally supportive comments but is seems the bases have been covered. I just did not want to miss this opportunity to say thanks.<P>Acacai