When I first started coming here, every cheater in my mind was a "whore" and a worthless, weak piece of Sh**. Even my lying cheating husband.<P>I think God puts people in our path to teach us things though, or maybe we just mellow with time and we really do heal, but now my view has changed a little and I am looking for some insight from you all.<P>A friend of mine has recently experienced horrible betrayal and is ending her marriage. Her trauma has been a long one, but she's finally thrown in the towel. She's separated, but her H is trying to get back with her. Meanwhile, she's having an affair. She doesn't see this guy as a knight in shining armor, but he helps to get her through the day. I don't agree with what she's doing and think it will cause her more pain in the long run, but I kinda can't blame her after what she's been through. I see her lover as a sleeze because he knows she's married, but I see her as a wounded person. Why the double standard? I still like her.<P>There is another person who I just met who has a baby by the "love of her life". She broke up her own marriage to do this and caused irreparable harm to the married man's marriage. I find myself liking her and yet being repulsed by her. <P>It seems like when the betrayers have a name, face, lives, and feelings like us, it's harder to label them "whores" and condemn them. I think it is wrong, wrong, wrong, but feel that they deserve the same forgiveness and compassion we want to give our betraying spouses. Still, that doesn't mean I want them in my livingroom, eating my food or calling my house.<P>Just wondering what you guys think about this?

Hi Popeye,<P>What do I think... I really think people who betray lack some morals. I have known meany betrayers I even liked a couple. One man who betrayed his wife was my mentor at the hospital I worked for. I really liked him. I just tried not to think about his home life.<P>My subordinate was the OW for another subordinate I had in my division. That was really hard to deal with. I would have to constantly go over and make sure they were working and not fooling around. I really hated it. When my division got bought I only allowed on of the two to come over. I refused to hire the male. Not because he was cheating on his wife but because he had issues working with me and taking orders. Now the affair is over and the OW is working fine again and I do not have to document any more lack of respect for her bosses as well as not fulfilling her job description.<P>Another OW and MM at work that got together just repulse me. He was so cruel to his wife. I am glad they got a divorce. This MM will cheat on the OW. I know it. She even gave up her children for him. He did not like them around. What a mess she has made of her life. How could a person place the OP above their own children?<P>Personally I really do try to find the best in people but some just repulse me. Maybe I am being too hard. Another guy would love to have the chance to cheat with someone at work. He is just too gross so no one will. He spends all his time at work looking at porn and using one of our products trying to find women on the Internet. He makes my stomach turn. <P>So I think that I try to look at it as good people really dumb mistake. Well I do try to see it that of way.

I was told the same thing by a coworker. She was a betrayed spouse once. Her H ended up leaving her for the OW. I was an OW last year for a few months. She sat by and watched the pain I caused myself, and it was genuine, and she said to me, just last week, that she never knew an OW could suffer until me. She said she began to have pity for me, and that she really likes me as a person, and appreciates how I handled things once I woke up from the fantasy. <P>I guess that's one good thing that my affair caused. Not much else.

I read this, and I wasn't going to reply, but I've changed my mind. Guess I'll throw my 2 cents in.<P>I've been the BS and the WS, more recently the WS. I never in a million years imagined myself doing something like that. I, too, thought cheaters were "whores" and bad people, etc. I always prided myself on never cheating on my H, even though he had cheated on me. Yet, I fell into the same crappy hole.<P>Pahakissa1,<BR>At first your comment, "What do I think... I really think people who betray lack some morals." really bothered me. Until I thought more about it..... <P>I consider myself to be a moral person. I even consider myself to be a Christian. I just made a horrible, awful mistake that led to more pain and misery for all involved. I'll admit, I didn't think I was a very moral person while having the affair, but I know deep down I am a good person. Just previously a really stupid one! I'm not justifying my A, but I would not consider myself a "whore" or a bad person. People make mistakes and have to figure things out on their own.<P>Which makes me think about this co-worker of mine that is starting an A. It really angers me, because she won't listen, but I never listened either. I knew what I was doing at the time was wrong, but I didn't stop it. She's going to have to face the same things. She's going to have to deal w/the aftermath. It just bothers me because she's fooling herself while she thinks she's fooling everyone else. I don't like her any less because of what she's doing. We're not much alike personality wise, so we're not close anyway. I just don't care to be around her while she's doing this. I definitely don't want to be involved in her chaos or listen to it. I've already been there, done that. I don't want to watch someone else put herself through it. And I'm not stupid, I've been in the exact same place she's at now. She thinks I can't see what's going on, the looks they give each other, or hear her when she talks to OM, etc. DUH!! I know more than she realizes!<P>So, anyway, I do agree that cheaters should be forgiven. Especially when they're trying to move on w/their lives and get past the affairs. Just thought I'd give you an "ex-cheater's" point of view.

I was a WS 2 yrs ago. It's not that I lacked morals, I lacked something at home. Everytime I reached out to my H - he was gone, he tries to tell me that he didn't have an affair while he was away overseas for a year, but that's bull. He comes home with loads of pictures of other women, his wallet is filled with women's phone numbers, etc. I never thought in a million years I would do something so horrendous as this.<P>But I was depressed. I'm still depressed but I can't go thru that ever again. It was wrong and it didn't help anything. Now - I kind of want out. I've gotten tired of his rude comments and his treating me like a social pirahia when he did the exact thing I did - have an affair. His frineds hate me, I wonder why? It's not because I had a PA, but it's what he said about me. Heck, I'd hate me too if I were badmouthed and called evil. <P>Most importantly, we WS' are people too. We are remorseful and wished we never did it. Just give us a little respect for going thru h*** and trying to climb out of it. I've asked God for forgiveness and tried to live in a manner that shows I'm worthy of a second chance. We all know that what we do is between us and God, so let us deal with the guilt. It's not for anyone else to judge. I've been through enough but was strong enough to say I'm sorry and forgive myself. To err is human, but to forgive is divine ....<P>Vee

I guess I am getting to a place where I can see the humanity in all people. I have forgiven my H and try to include his whore in that too. I feel sorry for them both actually. <P>I still think it is incredibly selfish, immoral, and there is no excuse for it. We all have difficult lives, but not all people try to solve their problems in this way, but I don't feel like it's the end of the world any more. It's the end of my marriage, but not the end of the world! <P>The big picture in all of this is "what now"?, I guess. I hope we all, betrayeds and betrayers, can get to a place of forgiveness and maturity so that this doesn't happen again and devastate the people we say we love. I can't tell you how much pain it has taken for me to get to this place. I do not want to live it again.

Hi Popeye,<P>This is a very timely post for me. Up until this weekend, I hated OW with a capital H.<P>That is, until I was cleaning out some junk in our garage and I hit on the motherload of E-mails, cards and letters between my H and OW that he had hidden away.<P>I waited a day to sit down and read them all. I really didn't want to, but knew that I had to. As I began to read them, my whole body was shaking.<P>What I found out was very eye opening. I could see the pain and anguish that OW was going through. Her marriage was breaking up (although I don't think the affair caused it, rather the affair was the final blow), she was feeling quite a bit of guilt over the breakup of her marriage, what it was doing to her kids, & also what their affair was doing to OUR marriage. At one point she wrote, "why can't you love your wife?" and "she rescued you, & gave you everything for 20 years..." Her handwritten letters had no dates on them, so I can't tell at what point in their affair they were written.<P>Of course, all of this guilt she was feeling wasn't enough for her to end it!!<P>I really was expecting to see that she was "trashing" me. But, she never did. Rather, I saw that she was very apprehensive about getting deeply involved with H. It was almost like it was just a fun, little game for her. A convenient, feel-good diversion from all of her problems. I don't think she began to desperately cling to my H until her divorce began to go through.<P>Her letters eluded to her stepping out on her H before this affair. They also told me that my H was the one who made the first move on her.<P>I still can't say that I'll ever like her. I think my hatred for her has now evolved into pity. I really don't think this individual is going to be happy with anyone. I came away with the impression that she doesn't like herself very well.

It is pitiful, isn't it? And such avoidable anguish!<P>For some reason, I am attracting these situations to me lately like flies! A friend who is separated from her H is seeing a guy who is seeing another friend of mine wh ois also separated! What a mess! I can't respect any of them. What are they doing to each other? I understand their issues because I know all the involved parties, but why choose this very painful way of masking the real hurt? Why do we do this to each other?<P>It seems so easy to me now to just say, "Just don't do it!"

I quess the biggest revelation to me from the posts on this board is that infidelity is not confined to men. I don't know who I thought men were having the affairs with...the same low-class, sl**, who just really got around alot, huh.<P>All our literature and movies have led us to believe that infidelity is second nature to men and generally more acceptable to society.<BR>Therefore it was condoned and overlooked.<P>To find everyday women now having affairs with co-workers says how much life has changed. Perhaps it is greater exposure to temptation for women now...chalk that up to more women in the workforce.<P>As for reasons, there are too many to make assumptions about, but one thing that stands out is that everyone is looking for someone to make them feel better about themselves.<P>Too bad they can't ask or won't ask for what they need from their partners.<P>Buffy

Those of us who have betrayed in the past have learned that painful lesson and have realized what pain we've caused, not only to our spouse but to ourselves. I think in the grand scheme of things, we've hurt ourselves the most. Because in the end, the betrayed have their self-respect intact, right?<P>Being betrayed is one of the most painful things that can happen in a marriage, I've been through it too. And there is no excuse for an affair. But obviously when an affair occurs, it's symptomatic of other problems within the marriage. But no problem is so insurmountable as to be used as a reason for having an affair. Isn't the problem within the betrayer, mainly? I can see that this is not a black and white issue, there are many shades of gray here. But I see so many times the betrayed blaming themselves for what needs were not met, and ultimately blaming themselves for the affair. Needs not being met is not an excuse. I know the reason for my affair, it was immaturity, not taking my vows as I should have. And my husband had what I've heard other say a "revenge affair", but we're working through it.<P>I still have a real sore spot when it comes to hearing anyting on the radio, tv, movie, etc. when adultery is condoned or scoffed at. I think it's sick, it rips apart families daily and I think media making light of it just sends a message out to impressionable individuals that it's just a normal part of society. Really sad. <P>I think that behavior is what defines us, but only present behavior. I would hope that those who have made mistakes in the past have learned from those mistakes and insure that they never happen again. And I agree with you popeye, it's completely avoidable anguish. Unfortunately, sometimes people who become involved don't even recognize the pain they are causing.

To Momma and others,<P>I was not trying to imply that you are scum of the earth. Just trying to give my view.<P>I really do think that there is something lacking. To be honest if you knew me you would find that I have softened a great deal when it comes to affairs. In the end I was trying to say that I view the person now more than the actions.<P>To be honest when Tony was cheating on me the second time I could have cheated on him. I mean really cheated. They guy was smart, cute, hard working, honest. I did not. I would not even really let my self really sit down and ponder this avenue. Why because it is wrong for me. Others might feel they are justified but I just knew for me I could not do it.<P>Yes in the heat of our arguments I have asked Tony how he would feel if I did that to him. But see he knows I would never do that to him. Why because I am that type of person.<P>Please do not think I am trying to say I am better than you because I am not. I have a great deal of faults. I just try to over come them. <P>The only thing I was trying to get across is that I really have been trying to see the person and why the do the things they do and not just flat out judge. <P>Please forgive me. I was not trying to be condesending and view myself as morally superior.

If you asked me this question prior to my H's affair, I would have given you a completely different answer. You see, a good friend of mine (now an ex-friend) is serial adultress. She justifies this by saying that finding out that her father was gay and having an affair with another man at a very formative stage of her life permanently scarred her for life. I can count on two fingers of my hand the number of men she has been with who do *not* have wives, fiancees, or girlfriends. The rest were in someway attached to another woman. I have witnessed her get involved with MM with pregnant wives; once, she slept with a man while his wife was in the hospital giving birth to their second child, and the next day, my "friend" (who knew and worked with his wife) had the GALL to show up at the hospital with a gift for the baby.<P>I witnessed her sleep with MM with wives and small children at the same time she was having unprotected sex with a heroin addict.<P>I witnessed her going through so many of these "MM" relationships - and each time getting burned - that I finally got tired of it. And yet I continued to listen to her, because I was her friend, and that's what friends are supposed to do, right? Well, after my H's affair - BTW this friend was our mutual friend, and my H turned to her whenever he needed someone to talk to about his own indiscretions, naturally - I decided that it was about time that I severed contact with her. She was completely willing to tell me everything about her OWN affairs, and yet when my H was sleeping around, did she tell me about it? No. The mindset of these people is "Protect your own butt at any cost to any other person." The cheater must always be protected, no matter who gets hurt.<P>After witnessing this callous display of mendacity, I decided that whether or not my marriage survived, this "friend" had no place in it. I don't think that it is healthy for my H and I to have in our company someone who has affairs so frequently and nonchalantly. It sets a bad example, and when you are weak and willing (as my H was), I can see how her example might have made the thought of having an affair more "acceptable."<P>I'm actually glad for this revelation. I will not be cruel to this ex-friend if she haps into my life again. I simply will not fraternize with her, nor will I tell her any personal information about myself. I will be nice and congenial, without integrating her into my life. I have no loathing for her, but yet I don't particularly have any respect for her either. I'm hoping that my H will feel the same way.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>She justifies this by saying that finding out that her father was gay and having an affair with another man at a very formative stage of her life permanently scarred her for life. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This sounds like the same kind of logic an alcoholic might use:<P>"I'm an alocoholic. I can't quit. So I won't even try." (My 1st H actually said that.)<P>If someone recognizes that they have a problem and then do nothing about it, they are digging their own grave and probably hurting a lot of other people in the process. <P>You were quite right to cut this person out of your life. You need a friend that you can trust and she obviously can't be trusted.<BR>

Havin an affair is purely selfish on both sides. Also immoral. My H was raised better than that and he knew it. So no matter how good of a person you are, if you are involved in an EMR you are doing a BAD thing, regardless of the excuse. And of course, to steal a line from "The Talented Mr. Ripley", you will never meet anyone who considers him/herself a bad person. This doesn't mean a cheater or OP can't repent and redeem themselves. Everyone should have a chance to make their one mistake. An unusual side effect with some betrayer's (I've seen it with my H and a MW friend) is an almost militant commitment to family values. Of course this is usually in people who had those values before and chose to reject them to have their affair. when they realize how they've betrayed their own beliefs they become even more committed to them. I had a friend through high school who was always sleeping with someone else's BF. I kept being her friend, after all friends are supposed to be supportive and she wouldn't do it to me (since we were friends). Of course she eventually slept with my BF too. I knew she was a snake and she bit me. Duh. Just a matter of time. If any of my friends become OW I will sever the friendship. With friends like that..

fairydust,<P>No kidding. I think that is sending a very clear message to someone that their behavior is unacceptable. The circumstances should not matter. I know alot of people are in unhappy marriages, sometimes abusive marriages. But having an affair with another person is NEVER the answer. Never, ever, ever. <P>BTW, re., the above friend? When my H and I separated and she sort of "took" his side, I think that she was trying to snag him. My H and I have talked about this before, and he swears that it is not true. However, ex-friends sister (now deceased) was my best friend, and I knew for a fact that she made a move on her own brother-in-law. I sometimes wonder if her failure to tell me about my H's affairs was her wishful thinking that perhaps my H might get involved with her. I would not be surprised one bit.<P>belld

Another provocative post.<P>Wayward Spouse, Betrayed Spouse, Other Person.<BR>For the sake of convenience and to facilitate discussion we apply these labels to ourselves and others. Unfortunately, doing this tends to make us think in cookie-cutter images. It's almost imposible to avoid. But there a bazillions of stories in the Land of Infidelity, aren't there?<P>Few would argue when the mugger who sticks a knife in a stranger's face and demands, "Yer money or yer life." is called a thief. But how about the parent who steals the loaf of bread for the wee starving children during the Depression? (Getcher red-hot clichés right here!!) Sorry, but while it is more justified and even excusable, it is still theft.<P>I married at 18. We lived in the most out-of-the way places, because the rent was cheap. We couldn't afford a phone. I didn't drive, not that we could have afforded a car anyway. My husband, also 18, who couldn't seem to find money for me to have bus of cab fare, even in order to be able to work, never had a problem coming up with cash for a six-pack or three, or another bong-load. In addition, he had a tendency to abandon me for days and days at a time.<BR>Fast-forward two years. He goes off with his "just a friend" girlfriend for a four day weekend. This bit is far too complicated to relate here, so I'll just say, though the magic of technology (many, many years pre-Web, but there are similarities) I met a man with whom I eventually had an affair. Was I evil, no, I don't think so. Was I wrong? Absolutely, bang-on dead wrong. Was I a whore? In the most stringent application of moral judgment, yes. Much like the man with the bread is a thief. <BR>The affair ended. I struggled in my marriage. My husband continued with his fun and games. After a total of 7 years, I divorced him. As we were now both single, I re-established the relationship with the man I had cheated with. I loved him madly, but there were problems. I left him and moved far, far away. I never stopped loving him. He married. He came to my town to attend his father’s funeral. He looked me up and made it clear that he still cared about me and still wanted me sexually. Hmmm… whatever did she do? She loves him and was a whore during her marriage… Well, I told him I didn’t fool around with married men. Yes, I had changed tremendously; I had matured enough to know without any doubt at all that were I ever married again nothing could induce me to cheat on my husband. If things got that bed, I’d end the marriage. But, that wasn’t why I said what I did. I would <I>never</I> have knowingly had a relationship with a married man. So, who is the whore?<P>Sometimes affairs are truly errors in judgment. In my case, desperate loneliness became unbearable and I was too immature and to find a good solution. It is an explanation, but absolves me of nothing. <P>Is this the same as if my spouse were trying to take care of me, trying to be a good partner, but wasn’t able to meet all my needs because I wasn’t telling or wasn’t capable of telling what they are? Is it the same as if I were to have gotten bored and lonely because my spouse worked really hard, taking care of what we both had agreed needed taking care of, and was too tired to play with me at the end of the day? How about if, after 20 years of an apparently good and stable if lackluster marriage I start feeling a little taken for granted, or maybe a little, well, old. Along comes my very kind co-worker to offer to take care of all those things my spouse has let go. How about if my spouse is in a persistent vegetative state for 2 years? Ten years? Should I divorce? What if I don’t divorce, but allow myself to develop a love relationship with someone? And what if my spouse then wakes up? WHO is what then?<P>It seems to me that there is a vast continuum involved here. The labels we apply are usually for expediency and to make our feelings known. Few of us get so absolute about Who is What when it doesn’t involve us, or at least someone we are close to, directly. And I have not doubt at all that that contributes to the problem. Almost no one will <I>actively</I> refuse to accept cheating behavior in friends or acquaintances. It is commonplace for infidelity to be “politely overlooked” or even aided and abetted. We have, I believe, a rather twisted sense of decorum when it comes to cheaters. It even goes this far: it is much more likely that the betrayed spouse will experience the additional betrayal by friends or even family than that the unfaithful spouse will. Bearing this in mind, and also that we are acculturated pretty similarly in this regard across the country and despite other cultural barriers, it seems almost inevitable that we can tolerate some cheaters with nary a batted eye while others drive us batty.<P>Would you ever confront someone you knew to be having an affair, whether they were a married person or not? Would you ever denounce them? Would you ostracize them?<P>Remember "When they came for my friend I said nothing; When they came for my neighbors I said nothing; When they came for me there was no one left to say anything."?<BR>

dragantraces, you wrote:<P>"Would you ever confront someone you knew to be having an affair, whether they were a married person or not? Would you ever denounce them? Would you ostracize them?"<P>No, I would not do any of those things. I would, however, not consort with the infidel and I would very gently let them know that I could not be around them as long as they were committing adultery. I would also make sure that the betrayed spouse was told. If the person were married, I would tell the person that they had one week to tell their spouse that they were cheating; and that if they did not 'fess up, I would call the spouse and tell them about the affair.<P>If the person were single and having an affair with a married person, I would tell the single cheater that I was phoning up the MP's spouse to inform them of the affair if they did not break if off with them in a week.<P>I will not tolerate cheaters in any way, shape or form, and will do whatever it takes to put an end to adultery, if I know of it. I wish to God that someone would have had the guts to come forward and tell me. Finally, someone did, long after the fact. But ironically, I feel resentful of this person, even though I am glad to have my suspicions confirmed. Why could this person have not told me as soon as he found out my H was cheating? Wasn't this something that I should have known about? Where was this "friend" then when I needed him the most? <P>belld<P>

Great post, dragantraces!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dragantraces:<BR><B>Sometimes affairs are truly errors in judgment. In my case, desperate loneliness became unbearable and I was too immature and to find a good solution. It is an explanation, but absolves me of nothing. <P>Is this the same as if my spouse were trying to take care of me, trying to be a good partner, but wasn’t able to meet all my needs because I wasn’t telling or wasn’t capable of telling what they are? Is it the same as if I were to have gotten bored and lonely because my spouse worked really hard, taking care of what we both had agreed needed taking care of, and was too tired to play with me at the end of the day? How about if, after 20 years of an apparently good and stable if lackluster marriage I start feeling a little taken for granted, or maybe a little, well, old. Along comes my very kind co-worker to offer to take care of all those things my spouse has let go. How about if my spouse is in a persistent vegetative state for 2 years? Ten years? Should I divorce? What if I don’t divorce, but allow myself to develop a love relationship with someone? And what if my spouse then wakes up? WHO is what then?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>For me, they are one in the same. From the scenerios that you have provided, it all boils down to communicating to one's spouse about whatever is felt that is missing, failure to do so means that they are all one in the same, at least to me. Waiting for a spouse to "wake up" without communicating that you have some type of problem is unfair to the marriage. <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>It even goes this far: it is much more likely that the betrayed spouse will experience the additional betrayal by friends or even family than that the unfaithful spouse will. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>While I may experience additional betrayals from friends or family members, they never promised me to remain faithful to me, while my spouse did. The trust that is given to friends and family does not compare to the trust that was bestowed upon a spouse. The betrayal of friends or family can not, nor will it ever come close to the pain that is brought by the betrayal of the person with whom you entrusted your heart..........ever.<BR>

Good story here....<P>But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.<BR> <BR>At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them.<BR> <BR>The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group<BR> <BR>and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery.<BR> <BR>In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?"<BR> <BR>They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger.<BR> <BR>When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."<BR>Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.<BR> <BR>At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.<BR> <BR>Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"<BR> <BR>"No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."<BR><p>[This message has been edited by lighthouse (edited July 17, 2000).]