Trying2_4give - THANK YOU, AND WELL SAID!!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by K:<B>It's called "the cult of common sense". </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Very arrogant attitude, don't you think??<BR>

missy, you wrote:<P>"I am just not sure where any of this will lead. I feel like I have fought for my h enough. He just does not me or the kids or hte wonderful life that we had.<P>Even if he did wake up one day, I am not sure I will be able to reconnect with him."<P>I understand how you feel. I've been dealing with this for a year now. My H and I have been physically separated for a year - not by my own choice, that's for sure! There is an emotional distance that takes place whenever any couple is separated; when you add a third party (the OW) into the mix, I think that the betrayed tend to eventually separate themselves, emotionally, from the betrayer, out of simple self-preservation. We know that they lie. We know that the betrayer cannot be relied upon to be there for us. The recurring thought that has entered my mind several times is, "What's the point to all of this?" If me and my H have been apart for so long ...doesn't this give *me* the opportunity to reassess and decide what is best for me? Shouldn't I be looking deep within myself to really see if I am willing to work on the marriage, if he comes back home? And most importantly, is my life *better* without him? And indeed, it is. I no longer have the frustrations that I had before. I am happier, and more at peace with myself. The distance between me and my H - due to his affair - has given me the opportunity to really sit down and think about, "Is this the *type* of man that I want for the long run?" I mean, really ... what's really *is* the point, when at this juncture, I feel that my H will resort to the same avoidance techniques (seeking out OW) should we get back together and problems occur in the marriage?<P>I understand your need for companionship. I have told a close friend of mine that I sometimes wish I were the type of person who could go out and fall in love with someone else. I wish that I could put my morals aside and just "do it." But I cannot. I'm essentially hardwired for honesty and commitment, and if I wanted another relationship, I would definitely get a divorce first. There is no way I could live with myself any other way.<P>What you're feeling, to my mind, is normal and expected. I don't know what the answer is, and I can offer no advice. I just wanted to let you know that you are not alone.<P>belld <P>

FA:<P>While you may "take offense" with the inference to common sense, I'd refer you back to missy's last post:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Thanks for all your responses. They all make great sense. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>All of this after 19 years together. 17 of which were wonderful before he met OW. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>DO any of you see any reason why I should continue to fight for this man, even when I am not speaking with him? IF you were all treated this way, why would you fight?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Based on this, I'd say that the "debate" here is healthy (and not offensive to missy), that she has a very long and loving history with her husband, and that she is still looking for reasons to fight for the marriage.<P>I don't think that there's a 100% chance that missy will be successful. But I do believe that the affair will burn out within 2 years (statistics again). I do believe that they had a good marriage prior. And I'm attempting to "cost analyze" what missy needs to do to keep her love alive for as long as possible---so that she and her husband get another chance.<P>If I believed that she was ready for divorce, I'd tell her "go for it". But she's not there yet. My advice, IMO, keeps her from divorce for a little while longer. And with her last question---if I were her, "yes" I would fight. My answer. Not a cult.

Again K by making comparisons to the plane crash and Niagra Falls you ARE saying that the friendship is DOOMED no if's ands or but's about it! And then you say that MISSY IS the one putting her marriage in "harms way". ARE YOU FOR REAL? SHE is the one putting her marriage in harms way by FINALLY letting some sunshine in her life. By finally feeling good about herself as a human being and not as some lower than life creature that her husband makes her out to be. By her finally doing what her husband has basically forced her to do and that is to continue living for HERSELF. Let me get this right, Plan B is to help her to not lose love for her husband, for her to work on herself, but ONLY and ONLY if she lives every breath on the hope that in a couple of months or years that her husband will come home to her. And of course because it happened to Lori it will definitely happen to Missy! With that thinking then NO ONE should get married due to the FACTUAL STATISTICS that 50% of marriage's end in divorce. And once again you have gone on your high horse by telling me it's "COMMON SENSE CULT" - Common sense to who? You of course and some others so that makes your way of living the right way for ALL. Come now, are we not adults with our OWN MIND or is that against the rules too.

My other post is lost somewhere so here is another, if it is a double then I apologize.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The situation that missy is approaching is putting her marriage in harms way.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>HUH? SHE IS PUTTING HER MARRIAGE IN HARMS WAY! Wow, i've heard it all now. By comparing her friendship to a plane crash and to hurdling over Niagra Falls you have already come to the only conclusion of failure on her part and in her future. I won't even comment on the high horse comment of "Common Sense Cult". Then again, yes I will - so what you are saying in your statement is that only your way of thinking is COMMON SENSE. Common sense tells me that you can never predict the future, ESPECIALLY not for someone else, you can give examples of others but can NEVER say THIS IS WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN. FACTUAL, 50% of marriages end in divorce, so with that then should we say NO ONE SHOULD MARRY? No, you follow what is right FOR YOU, you don't condemn them to fail.

Trying2_4give, you're ranting and raving, and making arguments about things that people simply have not said. Although I will quote some of these nonsensical rantings missy, know I am speaking to you, and not talking like you're not in the room. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> But please stop beating up on this poor woman and that is exactly what you are doing with your words of..."I too made the same MISTAKES that Missy is making" WHAT!! I didn't know nostradamus (sp?) was here on this board to predict the future!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>While each affair is different, they unfold in remarkably predictable ways which would put Nostradamos to shame. K wasn't predicting Missy's future, he was showing his <I>past,</I> and how it <B>could</B> affect missy's future. And Missy <B>IS</B> making mistakes in her efforts at marital recovery, if that is indeed what she wants. She needs to sit down and address what she really wants, without the emotional interference from her OM. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> As I said before, this is starting to feel like a programming! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It's not programm<B>ing,</B> but following a PROGRAM for marital recovery. Dr Harley's methods have an absolutely <B>amazing</B> rate of success, if you can follow them. Either the marriage recovers, or the betrayed spouse slowly loses their love for the betrayer, and is able to end the marriage with mental health and the tools and ability to thrive in their next relationship. It's not easy, but nothing worthwhile ever is. Trying, if you aren't happy with the program, maybe it's time to change the station? You ARE on a MarriageBuilders Forum, not a "Do It if it Feels Good until my Spouse wakes up" board.<P>Missy, what you are doing is wrong, pure and simple. Is it as wrong as what your H is doing? Of course not, but that's only a matter of degree. You are <B>married,</B> and being less wrong does not make it right. Do you deserve some happiness? Absolutely! But to turn one of Dr Harley's examples around (something I've had to do many times, working his "program" from the Betrayers vantage), wouldn't you rather have an amazing, loving relationship with your H? Even better than what you had those first 12 years? By working Dr Harley's methods, it is not only possible, but very likely.<P>And K... once again, bigtime kudos to you for sticking around and still trying to help people despite all this "justification" I continually see thrown in your face, sometimes with great venom. You STILL the man! <P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die<p>[This message has been edited by WhoDat (edited July 20, 2000).]

Trying, you wrote:<P>"No, you follow what is right FOR YOU, you don't condemn them to fail."<P>The point is, you cannot just do what is right for yourself. You have to always take into consideration how your actions affect your spouse - even when the spouse is cheating. In that way, you do what is right for *both* of you. I've posted this on many occasions, and I'll post it again. There are things that other people do that hurt us, and then there are the things that we do to ourselves to perpetuate the hurt. <P>*Wanting* to do something is not necessarily the 'right' thing. If that were the case, I'd be out having a revenge fling myself.<P>belld<BR>

trying2_4give<P>I will repeat myself, I am in total agreement with you. It seems to me that since this is the MB website that we should all step in line and run with whatever is stated here without using our <B>own</B> minds. It's amazing how an opinion that is different from the Harley's is attacked and shot down....and with venom. How common sense only applies to those who follow their line of thinking, that anything other than that is a "mistake". How <B>noble</B> it is of you to try to "save" those of us that may have a different view.<P>If I may say so without being <B>totally</B> offensive, maybe it is this "holier than thou", "know it all", "I know what is right" attitude that caused some spouses to seek another............just some food for thought.

WhoDat, thank you too for proving that my mind is only RANTING AND RAVING to you. Sorry, if i don't have the correct password for this club. But what you feel is my ranting and raving is what YOU feel and for you to tell me to go elsewhere "change the station" showed your true ignorance. Have a nice day. As I have said before I am a follower of Harley but I would never let 1 person's thinking take over my entire being, you MAY be right about Missy's friendship not working but you know what...I am open-minded enough to know that you MAY be wrong! And I am open-minded enough to know that I may be wrong. Sorry WhoDat, but I will not be run off due to my difference of opinion (gee, i hit it right on the button with my CULT comparison). Missy you have gotten some great advice and ideas from everyone. That's is why we all come here for different perspectives, but it seems that some don't want to hear it. However you interpret it or however you handle your situation, just know that their are people on this board who will be there for you, no matter what.

FA:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If I may say so without being totally offensive, maybe it is this "holier than thou", "know it all", "I know what is right" attitude that caused some spouses to seek another............just some food for thought.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hey, no offense taken---and certainly that assessment is on target in my case. There is NO DOUBT that disrespectful judgements were a major destroyer of my wife's love for me.<P>However, in following the "cult of Harley" methodology, I was able to make significant changes even while my wife was having an affair.<P>And as an aside, I'm not married to you, or trying2_4give, or anyone else here. So while I try to remain "respectful"---I will give my opinion, increasingly forcefully, when I perceive that someone may be heading in a direction that could cause them harm and suffering. And because of my success with MB methodology, and the fact that this IS a website owned by MarriageBuilders, yeah---I'll give you flak for advice that I think is running against the guidelines (and perhaps harmful). No one died and made me God of MarriageBuilders---but there is an off-chance that I might actually KNOW how to put these practices into use, and be able to guide people away from making mistakes that I've made (or have seen).<P>Tell me, both of you (trying2_4give and FA): how does this friendship help missy's marriage? And what are the risks involved? And are those risks worth it? Lay it on the line---use examples from these pages and from your own life. Don't sit and rant about cults, programming, and how everyone is picking on you. Please provide a service here, and from missy's point of view of wanting to save the marriage, how does having a close, sympathetic, attractive, sensitive opposite sex friend help?<P>If you can't, I really don't care to debate this further. <BR>

Thanks, trying, for pointing out our differences so succinctly... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> However you interpret it or however you handle your situation, just know that their are people on this board who will be there for you, no matter what. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>When I was very active on this board in an effort to help recover my marriage, I was, I am sure one of the least liked people here. Most of the oldtimers from then have moved on, but I'm sure many still left will attest to that fact. The main reason for this is my complete lack of tact and diplomacy, coupled with the fact that I will <B>NOT</B> be there for someone no matter what. <B>I COMPLETELY REFUSE TO ENABLE DESTRUCTIVE BEHAVIOR!</B> If someone is doing something I feel is detrimental to marital recovery, I will tell them, and I will NOT beat around the bush.<P>I'd rather tell someone what they are doing wrong than to be "supportive" OF that wrong. Missy, the advice you are getting from trying and FA is that you are deserving of happiness and friendship, with marital recovery as a far distant second, if even in the race at all. As soon as YOU make that decision, head straight to the courthouse and file for divorce. Until then, you are MARRIED.<P><B>PERIOD.</B><P>I am sure if you decided to "handle your situation" by jumping off a bridge, trying2_4give would "be there for you, no matter what" and offer to give you a boost up onto the railing. Myself, I'd prefer to make an attempt to talk you out of it. Trying2_4give prefers to help "support" you in throwing your marriage off that selfsame bridge instead of helping you recover it.<P>Not me.<P><BR>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die<p>[This message has been edited by WhoDat (edited July 20, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhoDat:<BR><B>When I was very active on this board in an effort to help recover my marriage, I was, I am sure one of the least liked people here.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No surprise here!!!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I'd rather tell someone what they are doing wrong than to be "supportive" OF that wrong.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And ONLY you and those that think like you KNOW what is right or what is wrong?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> Missy, the advice you are getting from trying and FA is that you are deserving of happiness and friendship, and your marriage is of no import.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think your interpretation of what has been said is way, way off base. I don't believe anyone said anything of her marriage being of no import. Maybe if you go back and ACTUALLY read ALL the postings on this thread you will see that.<P>I guess you only give support to those that do what you tell them to do or think how you want them to think........that's pretty sad <P><BR>

Examples: <BR>1. He can give her self-esteem a wake up call and we all know when our self-esteem is up we can handle anything and everyone with MUCH CONFIDENCE including her interactions with husband. So that when he belittles her and makes her feel terrible, she can put on a smile and say "this man is lost, but he won't make me hate him"!<BR>2. He can give her a different spin on things or advice on how to connect/understand her husband being that he is the same sex. For me, talking to other woman friends when husband cheated was all the same advice "LEAVE HIM, MOVE ON, etc". Men can be more objective about other men's behavior and can give a different view of opinion that would help her and her reactions to husband more positively.<BR>3. Or if husband pisses her off she won't need that frying pan, she can get her male friend to take care of it! I'm joking, though it is nice to daydream!<BR>K, I am not taking anything away from what you are saying, I just don't understand the thinking that if a married woman has a friend that has a penis, then it is condemned to be a bad thing. As long is the male friend understands and respects where your heart and love is and understands that you want a friend and only a friend then why should we turn it away.<BR>Another example, my male friend is offering his time-share to me since husband and I are strapped for cash. He is doing this because he wants to see that husband and I get OUR TIME away together. This is a male friend that I have incorporated into BOTH my and husband's life and I would never want to turn such a friendship away because he is the opposite sex. He is trying to enhance my life with my husband and my husbands life with me. (and I met him when H and I were seperated for 3 weeks through his female cousin). I know the situations are different than what Missy is talking about, but I am trying to show that this is a friendship that is helping my marriage, because he gives us BOTH advice.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Tell me, both of you (trying2_4give and FA): how does this friendship help missy's marriage? And what are the risks involved? And are those risks worth it? Lay it on the line---use examples from these pages and from your own life. Don't sit and rant about cults, programming, and how everyone is picking on you. Please provide a service here, and from missy's point of view of wanting to save the marriage, how does having a close, sympathetic, attractive, sensitive opposite sex friend help?<P>If you can't, I really don't care to debate this further. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>First of all, I didn't know this was a debate, I thought it was a public flogging of those that didn't think as you do, that didn't follow the Harley methodology as well as you do, that dared have the gall to offer a different opinion on the MB website. I don't believe anyone ranted about cults, programming or getting picked on, like you do so very well, examples were given and comparisons were made to the line of thinking that permeates throughout this site......that one is <B>wrong</B> or making a <B>mistake</B> or lack <B>common sense</B> if they have a difference of opinion with the Harleys on not all of the principles, but <B>some</B> of them in certain situations.<P>As far as providing a service, I think that it has already been done in the previous posts, it has been stated how having a friend could help, you obviously disagree, you obviously have a difference of opinion, but I do believe that the posts from trying2_4give were accurate, timely, compassionate and helpful, even if it doesn't fit into how you think the world should be.<P>

Missy,<BR>If you've reached the end of your rope, feel you've given it your all and have no more to give, then I suppose I would be ready to divorce my H as well and would have no, well, very little regrets. <P>Just make sure the "friendship" didn't have anything to do with your marriage's demise.<BR>What friendship should?<P>I don't believe you should rely on others for your self-esteem contrary to what was written before me. Sure, support is great and advice is great but what is "self"-esteem<BR>if you have to get it from a male "friend". I think you're talking about ego stroking there. How come you didn't hook up with a female in your group?<P>You know what's best for you, Missy. Best wishes to you, Hon.<P>

Lei - <P>When my H moved in with his OW "the friend," I asked him why he didn't move in with any number of his single male friends. He didn't have an answer for that one. I think that you are coming close to something that we betrayed all deal with - needing to know that we are still attractive and desireable, given our spouse's affair and choice to be with another person. It's a difficult temptation to ignore, particularly when you're weak. I find myself preening whenever I get a compliment from a man - it's like I'm parched from lack of compliments, and I just drink the stuff in. I can see how this would be a difficult temptation to pass up.<P>belld

Thanks you, trying2_4give:<P>Item 1---the self-esteem issue. There's no doubt that an affair is very tough on the self-esteem (no matter what path through it you take). And this guy is great for missy's self-esteem right now. The concern is always that it will turn into more---and then on an abrupt ending, missy's self-esteem is shot. In general, it's better to find "same-sex" friends our a counselor who can give you the boost to your self-esteem.<P>Item 2. While I agree that a man can probably give a better perspective on how her husband is reacting, her marriage counselor can do an even better job (albeit at a cost). There's no doubt in my mind that you want to stay very far away from friends who say "dump the bum", when you're trying to save the marriage.<P>Item 3: good idea, but she could get a woman friend to sleep with her husband, and then with a nice knife or pair of scissors... slice! (that hurt just to write...).<P>You're completely correct that a good friend who knows where yor heart is and will not compromise the friendship is usually a safe bet (although YOU may fall in love anyway). But those friends don't come with labels on their forehead that say "trustworthy". Your friend offering you a timeshare for you and your husband is a fine example: he's a friend of both you and your husband. You don't spend "exclusive" time with him (I assume). I'm betting that you don't sit down with him privately and share gobs of marital problems. In essence, he's acting like a counselor for you both---and that's a great service (if he's good at it).<P>In my belief, it OK to have "same-sex" friends, if you keep a few of those precautions in place. And even if you don't have those "precautions" in place, you may not get burned. But my wife had an affair with someone who was her friend first. And I bet your husband did the same. Most of the affairs illustrated here started through friendships. That's why I "preach" that those precautions are a great way to guard against affairs. <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by K:<BR><B>I missed whatever TMD said to you---but you didn't answer my question.<P>But---how did you find yourself in three separate affairs? It's highly unlikely that these men were sailors standing on a corner who you passionately attacked and said "take me" to.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>But I did answer your question sweetheart, but I will rephrase my answer to you. No they were not sailors standing on corners, the first was an ex-boyfriend, the second a co-worker, the last was a friend from childhood. I admittedly pursued the first two. I was wrong for what I did, but no, it was not a matter of me telling them of my marital problems which led to the affair, at that time, they made me feel good and I knowingly started the affairs, it was never about being in love, it was about feeling good, having the pain of what I was enduring taken away, something that you obviously have never been through before. The last affair was one that started because of his pursuit of me, he also knows my husband and knows how my husband treated me, and as stated earlier has been a childhood friend.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I can't presume to exactly know what's best for missy (nor do I pretend to)</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Then don't. I believe someone here said it best, just because missy's friend happens to have a penis, doesn't mean that they will end up in the sack. Only one of the men that I had affairs with knew about my marital problems, and that was more because he could SEE what was going on versus me sitting around telling him. <P>For people who have never felt that loneliness, that low self-esteem, that knawing emptyness, be careful on judging others and telling them the RIGHT way of doing things. Until you KNOW that pain and that emptyness, how can you sit in judgement of someone else. I understand the pain of the betrayed, but do the betrayed understand the pain that leads to that betrayel????<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>3. Or if husband pisses her off she won't need that frying pan, she can get her male friend to take care of it! I'm joking, though it is nice to daydream!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>We know you're joking. However, when the friendship gets to the point where this kind of joking takes place then watch out.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>