Dear Forest:<P>I would appreciate it if you could ask yourself these questions (with an open mind). No need to reply. Just *food for thought*. And, not trying to be harsh....just candid.<P>Who cares whether it (affair) was a relationship or an addiction? What difference does it make what you call it? Does it have to be *real* for you?<P>Does calling it an addiction offend you? And, if so, why does it offend you? Does it make you feel guilty, shallow, stupid, adolescent, unclean, unfaithful, unloving, average, simple?<P>What does the term relationship do for you? Justify the affair, make it easier for you to look at yourself in the mirror, make it easier for you to look at your wife and children, make it easier for you to pray, make it easier for you to continue thinking of OW, make it easier for you to consider it as *something special*?<P>And, how about the term OW? Why do you have a problem with this? Is it not kind enough? beautiful enough? caring enough? thoughtful enough? <P>What would you prefer? soulmate? one and only? lover? best friend? And if so, why do you prefer these terms? Are these easier to swallow? Because they're *prettier*?...softer?....truer?<P>Try looking at it from a betrayed spouse's POV. And, I'll use myself as an example here:<P>I prefer the term indiscretion...over either affair, addiction or relationship. To be honest, addiction sounds as if the WS had no control over their actions--as if they get to use this as an excuse. The term affair is too sleazy--brings to mind two bodies entwined on top of an office desk (YUCK)--something I'd rather avoid envisioning. The term relationship is too gentle...too positive...too *flowery* for such a deceitful act.<P>As far as terms used for the other person:<P>OW is acceptable to me because it doesn't conjure up a person, a face, a body, a personality. It is almost void of character--ie: a nobody. <P>On the other hand, I believe slanderous/degrading terms to be ugly, unforgiveable, unhealthy for healing, and immature. I have never/would never ask my H to refer to OW as such.<P>But, lover/soulmate/bestfriend/the "ONE", is unacceptable if healing is to progress. You must simply accept this person as exaclty what she was: the other woman you fell in love with (ie: OW).<P>I could take this discussion even further and come up with (nice) terms we (both BS/WS) use to describe our spouses-- wife, husband, lover, bestfriend, soulmate, honey, hon, sweetie, cutie, etc. While your affair was ongoing, did you refer to your wife as your lover when talking with OW? Example: OW asks, "What did you do this weekend?" Did you respond, "Wife and I took kids to park"...or would you say, "My lover and I took our kids to the park"????? Wouldn't OW simply *die* if this was how you referred to wife during the A? Is it more important to you, now, to defend OW or protect your wife/marriage? Is it more important to you, today, to protect your actions/yourself, than it is to protect your marriage/wife? <P>Point being, if you're repairing your marriage with your wife, call the other woman, and the relationship what you and your wife can agree on. In our case it's "OW's initials" for other woman, and "indiscretion" for affair. <P>And, IMHO, your "indiscretion" was a result of your life/marriage being in a "slump". Your "affair" may have felt like a home run (the *real* thing)....but you definitely struck out (missed the opportunity to *score* with your spouse).<P>Here's hoping your team (family) wins...and WINS BIG! <P>Good Luck to you and your family. Peace, ~Marie<P>--------------------------------------<BR>Ooops...came back to add one of my favorite quotes:<P>"Happiness is not having what you want. It is wanting what you have." ~unknown<P> <p>[This message has been edited by ohmy_marie (edited August 05, 2000).]

Hi Wesse....<P>I just wanted to say that I can appreciate the wealth of 'experience' you bring here. I bet you really have 'heard it all'. And I am sincere in saying that. <P>Yes....I would honestly admit...I am addicted. I don't even trust myself. But I would like you to clarify something for me...and that is how do you distinguish the difference between 'rationalizing" and "justifying". I do tend to get defensive when it is suggested I am trying to justify my actions or feelings. I have never in my heart tried to justify what I have done, or for that matter 'rationalize' where I am at. I have sought to "analyze to death" how I got here and what it is I am going through.<BR>Maybe it is a matter of sematics here. And maybe I am in denial on this point, but I don't really think I am trying to 'justify' the place I ended up in. <BR>I have had a difficult time in 'refocusing' because of the strong emotional pull.<P>Was it you who suggested I was 'wallowing in self-pity?" Hmmm....maybe I do at times. I'll give you that if that is what it sounds like I am doing. But isn't that what 'venting' is about here at MB? I don't know.<P>I would not suggest I am in anyplace to 'counsel' others like forest, but at what point do you find support from others who are in the same place? I thought that is what makes AA so successful? Granted, two drug addicts together, stand little hope of getting off their addiction it would appear.<P><BR>Allison...<BR>yea...I read some other posts earlier...sounded like you had a rough one recently. Do you ever feel like your heart is a piece of elastic that has lost about all the 'stretchiness' that it had? This emotional roller coaster will do that to you, won't it?!<P>So how is the heat other there in AZ? I use to live out there...went to ASU for awhile...got married out there almost 20 years ago in Mesa. Used to own a motorcycle and would ride up to Payson and up to the Rim in the summer....rode all over the state. I miss those days. Always nice to hear from you here. Hope the weekend gets better for you.<BR>

There is a poem called "Seasons" which explains that people come in and out of our life like seasons. They are allowed to be there because of our choices and they offer something of value. EVERYONE does. God allows us poor gullible humans choice. They we experience consequences. It is up to us to look at each individual that comes across our path and see what it is they are there for.<BR>I totally regret having an A. If I had given my brain time to really consider the consequences I would have never gone there. Instead I could not get past the hurt and disallusionment I was feeling in my life and latched onto a fantasy. Looking back I see my weaknesses and I see the hurt I caused in my familys' lives. This has been a repeated pattern in my life. The one thing I have learned about God is that he will give you similar situations time and time again until you get it right. Obviously I had not! I can guarantee you this time I will get it right.<P>Forest, anaylyze what you got out of your relationship with the OW. I believe your offense to that term is because it makes you look at the hard facts...she is the other woman and you have wronged somebody you loved with your actions. <P>You can get what you need from your W if you communicate what it is. The hard part is figuring it out sometime.<P>Father, I thank you for allowing us to make our own choices and more importantly to suffer the consequences of our actions. I thank you for the pain that we are all feeling, that we may never have to walk this path again. IJN we pray, Amen

Nomas, I won't debate you - you aren't ready.<P>Venting doe not equal wallowing. You are brighter than that. Think about it.<P>AA analogy? You're not even close. Think about that one too. You are not an addict successfully living in recovery as are the wonderful people helping at AA. You are not there yet. You acknowledge that you aren't - again you're brighter than that analagy suggests.<P>Why put the word "experience" in quotes? Please don't be testy. I do not intend to hurt you. Likewise, I don't expect to reach you. I will pray for you. At this time, I think that's all we can do.<P>Faith is far more diplomatic than I. She is also very wise. She wrote wonderful posts to you that you may not accept at this time. Perhaps other readers will.

Starry Eyed, I found your post inspirational. Thanks for sharing it with us!

NoMas,<P>Two addicts together do not AA make! Two addicts together is a happy hour!! <P>When you're in AA you get a sponsor--a <I>recovering</I> alcoholic! <P>Think Wesse was frightened Forest was beginning to look to you as his "sponsor".<P> <P>Well, here's a toast to hoping that one day you <B>will</B> be in a postion to sponsor someone!<P>We BS's (YUCK!) commisserate and wallow and vent but we always rush to try and uplift eachother and give eachother strength to continue to plan A. Our goal is healing and recovery. Not looking at another person outside our marriage lovingly and *sighing* and wishing for what could have been. We're WORKING here!<P>By the way, still love ya, kiddo! <P><BR>Marie,<P>Now cut that out!! You said what I said only cuter! <P>If I knew you were going to "wear the same outfit" as me, I wouldn't have bothered to post here! And I look like such a "potty mouth" in comparison! <P> <BR>

Wesse,<P>Please look at my post under your 1:56pm post--near the bottom I left you a message.<BR>Did you get it?<P>NoMas,<P>Shall I refer Wesse to our "battle of the minds" posts a few weeks ago? It might save you from repeating yourself. I'm already hearing the same things over again. And I hate to see Wesse banging her head against a brick wall like this. <P> <BR>

Leilana: OMG! I'm beginning to think we were twins separated at birth .<P>BTW, cute outfit! Love the toe ring . ~Marie

LEILANA!!!! And, what is with our posts being one minute apart from each other?<P>DO DO DO DO.....spooky. ~Marie

Well, here goes. After the affair ended I went back home to my wife and tried to make the marriage work. We went to marriage counciling one on one and together - it didn't work. We tried using Harley - it didn't work. The withdrawal was really bad, and by this time I don't think I was in love with my wife anymore. At least not like I loved the ow. Here's the difference. I felt responsibility to my wife. Responsible for her safety and financial security. Responsible because I took vows after all we were married for 25 years. I didn't want anything bad to happen to her because of me. On the other hand, the feelings I had for the ow were love also, but different. I felt romance, happyness, and probably lust. I was sorry the affair ended and I was sorry I was home.<P>That didn't last long. When I realized that the marriage wouldn't work I moved back out and lived with a friend while trying to get back together with the ow. By then she felt used (because I went back home) and didn't want any kind of relationship with me at all. We have not seen nor spoken to each other in about a year now. However, I still think about her every day. I'm still in love with her and would like to be with her. As far as my wife goes she divorced me in a few months ago. So now I live alone in an apartment with neither the ow or my wife. Not a very happy ending. So I've been through the entire cycle. By the way the affair started in April, '93. Seven years ago.<P>There's lots of details that I didn't include, but I can tell you that the pain of withdrawal is still there even though we haven't even seen each other in a year now.<P>Anyone wanting more details can email me at: broker75@home.com<P>One other piece of advice - this forum is a real life saver, but after awhile you need to heal and move on. Use the forum to talk to others going through the same ordeal, but when you realize that the stories are all the same, but the names have changed it's time to move out of here. I found that being in here talking about it every day for months and reliving the pain wasn't helping me move forward. So use the forum, lean on others, have them lean on you, but keep in mind that someday you need to get on with the rest of your life and staying in here won't help.

Leilana, AMEN.

We're practically in a chat room right now!<P>Freedom: Sorry things didn't work out for you. Somehow I thought your story would have a suprise happy ending. Sadly, it was predictable (to me anyway). No committment, no recovery. But do you honestly think if you committed to your OW that you would have had a happy ending? <P>You think about your OW and are still in withdrawal from her and yet you say you've healed and moved on? <P>(Darn, you mean we're not <I>supposed</I> to live here forever? )<P>Freedom, I am so saddened by your story even more not only because this is where I see some of our WS heading, but because my theory of eventual mental illness recovery is totally busted! I thought one way or the other there would be healing. <P>Why can't you find your OW and make her take you back? You sound like you could put more enthusiastic effort into that relationship (with the love of your life) than the effort you put into your relationship with your (ball and chain/responsiblity burdoning) wife. OK, I'm being a bit pissy in quoting you semi-verbatum but I am also serious. Only once you've pursued and hold a real world relationship with OW can you say she was truly <B>the one</B> that got away.<P>Till then you're just spinning your wheels pining after a dream.<P>My wish for you is to wake up and find happiness. <P>And I'll leave here when I'm damn good and ready!!

Freedom....thank you for the update. I sent you an email already.<P>Leilana...<BR>Good to hear you back to being your 'feisty self again. I was worried a few days ago that you might be 'softening' up a bit. Does "Leilana" mean 'pitbull' in french? <P>Wesse...<BR>Seems to me you are the 'testy' one. I simply put "experience" in quotes because you mentioned dealing with folks like me alot...along with going through your own hurt of betrayal. I was trying to be coordial with you and ask you for a sincere response. I wasn't trying to pick a fight or "debate" you.<BR> Guess you still have a lot of issues you are still working through. Why would you allow someone like me to get under your skin so bad anyway????

NoMas,<P>I made it up all by my little old self--funny tho, the Lana part comes from my black fighting chow dog! You're not too far off the mark.<P>But remember how I said you come across as passive agressive (I find it hard to believe you're not doing it on purpose sometimes!).<BR>Well, you're posts to Wesse REEKS with it!<P>Take it easy, ok.<P>

NoMas, Forest and the rest. I hope Freedom's posts helps you avoid getting into his situation rather than seeing as "evidence" the OW was the real deal.<P>Remember Freedom's story went on for years. OW was not a fantasy (although he did not have the day to day responsibilities of marriage, maybe house and kids either) because he lived with her for many years. I did not go back and reread his posts, but I seem to recall there was plenty he wasn't satisfied with in that relationship at the time he went back to his wife.<P>Maybe the OW was correct that in the end she was used or that she looked the obvious choice when Freedom's Plan A (marriage) Plan B (affair) or Plan C (reunite marriage) didn't work out. Maybe she could see the pattern.<P>NoMas, your situation in particular is more different from Freedom's as it is the same. Of course you could make it hell on earth for everyone follow his pattern.<P>Freedom, I am sorry it did not work out for you. I hope you find some peace.

Sometimes I think we MB are too smart for our own goods. Geez, let's see, we have attorneys, doctors, lots of nurses, all kinds of wonderful college-educated folks here.<P>Yep, we can debate just about anything to death.<P>But, where is it getting us? Are we more compassionate because we post using big words? Is it helping anyone here, or are we just trying to impress the heck out of each other? <P>I guess my point is this...why why why are do we want to see such a quick turn-around by the betrayers on these boards, and are oh-so patient with out own WS?<P>The betrayed spouses here on these boards are endlessly patient, I mean to the point of waiting years and years for their husbands or wives to "come around". But, let a betrayer show their emotions, tell us truthfully how hard it is and they get lectures from others here who "know more" about life and how things should be progressing.<P>Why are we so patient with the ones we love, and demand instant action from those here in the throes of what our own spouses are going through?<P>Are we telling the betrayers here all the things we'd like to be telling our own WS? Are we so busy Plan Aing our foggy partners that we take it out on those here brave enough to show us just what it's like on the other side of this huge mess?<P>Listen, I hate the fact that my H screwed around with another, but oh he!!, who was it that said we are learning here. Yes! I am learning from each and every one of you here, every day. I have no initials after my name to show the world how intellegent I am, but slowly I am getting it, and I need each and every one of you here to help me.<P>Wesse, I'm sorry. I understand that you are tired of hearing these things, since you deal with them every day at your practice. But I have not...I knew nothing about infidelity going into this. Please don't cut out any of my sources...I need them.<P>I'm going to stop now, as I'm kind of angry that the boards here that have helped me so much have turned into a mental pushing match. <BR>I do appreciate you all so much...damn it, I wanted it to work out with Freedom and his W. Maybe that's why I'm so pissy.<P>allison<P>

Nomas, whatever makes you think you get under my skin?

I had to come back and look, after being out all day with the brats, trying to have fun.<P>I got filled in on a lot of good points, so I am glad I did.<P>You are right, FHL, I think that OW/OM is the appropriate term. Sorry. As wonderful a person the OP might be, they do not belong in the marriage. They are outside of it. <P>I told my hubby's OW: "I don't care if you match Audrey Hepburn in beauty, Stephen Hawking in intelligence, slaved away by the side of Mother Theresa feeding homeless children in Calcutta and you stand to win the Nobel Peace Prize for diplomacy resolving centuries of conflict in the Middle East, the fact is, you slept with my husband behind your husband's back, so what does that say about your character at this point in time? You pick the word" I made her cry. Oh, boo-hoo.<P>We have it laid out for us, what is right, what is wrong. In the law, in our conscience. Some us aren't so sure what is what. So we decide to pick through those subtle shades of grey, and test. Okay, that's part of life. You learn by mistakes, I know so well. <P>But once you KNOW what is right, and what it wrong, what is the problem with picking the right way to do things? Are you beating yourself in the head with a hammer because it feels good? A great big huge DUH!<P>Man, bottom line, if I went through life following my feelings rather than adhering to my obligations, like it or not, I don't think I'd be here talking to you folks. I'd be in the state pen.<P>I'd have driven out to the desert left all of my kids when they cried or got on my nerves.<P>I would have launched the dog into the troposhere every time it pooped on the carpet.<P>During my ten years in the army, every time I got woken up for 0200hrs guard duty, I would have rolled over and gone right back to sleep. (Try going for three days without sleep with the sound of mortars going off near the AO, and when you finally get a chance to sleep. . .for 1 hour or so. . and then you gotta get back up again, cause lives depend upon you. It's what we call "Oh, God! o'clock in the morning")<P>I probably would have quit most of my jobs after a month or so. Welfare is pretty accessable in this great country.<P>I definately would have dropped out of college when it came time to study for final exams. Or just not studied, like a lot of my roomates, and gone out dancing. Who cares?<P>And like I said, I would have put the OW in the hospital, most definately, without a couple of teeth and a couple of hanks of hair. Oh, for certain. Probably worse than that.<P>But, controlling your emotions is just a must in this life, is it not? If we have a difficult time with this, we must learn.<P>To summarize, sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do, any way, any how, no bellyachin' pissin and moaning. Including letting go of your "soulmate" if you are interested in adhering to your marriage vows in the very least.("soulmate" or whatever you want to call the OP.) Does this make sense?<P>Letting go of the OP is NOT like driving out to the desert and leaving one of your kids. He/she will be okay without you, and you will be okay without them. Sorry for sounding insensitive. As has been pointed out, this is a systematic process, and has to be helped along with loving support. I am not disagreeing with that.<P>But the first move begins with commitment, just like your wedding vows. You did not stand up there at the altar in church, look into your bride/grooms eyes and say "I will try to love this person more and more systematically and will give it my best shot each and every day, like it or not." <P>No. You simply said "I do."<P>Can't you do the same thing with OP? Simply say "I un-do" and go from there. It's a vow, promise, commitment. What's so hard? I don't understand. <P>If you start thinking adverse thoughts, what stops you from thinking about something else? Anything else? The world is full of stuff to explore, my gosh, it would be pretty dull and boring if it revolved around one person! If you start reminiscing old memories, why can't you take your sweetie by the hand and make new memories? If you find yourself lollygagging and dwelling on your "soulmate," then I think that you have to much time on your hands.<P>Oh gosh. Here I am, wasting space. Sorry. I am mad today and I had to get it out of my system, so if I sound abrasive, I apologize.<P>

You go girl

Forest - your posts gave me chills and made me cry. I truly feel for your pain. You had a relationship - but a relationship that was an addiction. My husband & I have been suffering together for 7 months through his withdrawal from his A and the OW. Like you, he felt terribly close and connected to the OW. Of course, when you have such a heavy, heavy secret, it brings you neccesarily close. You and her against the world. Try to realize that your feelings are real, but based on unreality. <BR>Fantasies and escape are wonderful drugs - a very painful to let go of hence the addiction. Time and distance are the great healers. Understand that your withdrawal is normal, but you WILL get over it. It took my husband 4 months to really start to see the light and feel better, and he still has his moments, but believe me, he felt just like you did a couple of months after the end of the A. Give yourself time, time, time, and beleive in yourself, your integrity and the real love you have for your wife and kids. <P>You will make it - good luck. <P>[This message has been edited by Everhopeful (edited August 06, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Everhopeful (edited August 06, 2000).]