Hi Too Trusting,<P> Of course he had it with his assistant or Tech. as they call them in the dept he's in.!! He is a radiologist and she an experienced tech. and "helped " him with all of his proceedures etc. Come to think of it , maybe there was this "save the world mentality".....when I confronted her she told me "he was the most compassionate Doctor in the world and the patients needed him."She almost cried saying this.....barf.<P>What I was trying to say to you is even though your H's behavior is so bizarre, it's not really,it's actually pretty typical for the betrayer....Normal is being "out there"!!<P>Hi Chris,<P> Boy, did you get that right...that's exactly the attitude my H had like" OK, I'm back don't expect me to be happpy." When Iwould finally call Steve and start on a recovery plan things were better but life interferred, my father became sick and died, my daughter had problems.We need to get back with a plan. Anyway, the defensiveness did go away but still none of this " You are the love of my life stuff".......LU

Hi Too Trusting,<BR> <BR> One more thing, DO NOT blame yourself for pushing your H into a PA from an EA. Believe me , you didn't do it.....In SAA, Harley says that once there is an EA it's just a matter of time until the PA. It would've happened no matter what with the way your H was acting....and could've been going on before, who knows?(I know you don't think so )<P>I, at one point blamed myself for my H getting back with the OW because I had to go visit my sick father.....is that crazy or what? <P>Hi Nellie,<P>I know there are no guarantees about Plan B , and I was prepared for the fact that my H might be gone for good. BUT, chances are good that they will fall, and I do think there is a good chance Too Trusting's H will fall too.At any rate Harley has had a pretty good success rate, better than other methods etc......LU

Hi everybody!<P>I just have to comment on this thread:<BR>One of the most common themes in all of the books I have read about affairs and saving marriages is that, particularly in the case of men who cheat on their wives, a large number of them eventually come to have deep regret about leaving their wives and wish they could reconcile. The most concrete figure cited was about 85%, and the longest number of years that might happen in was cited as 5 years.<P>That is, perhaps, why prolonged "standing" for your marriage can work in some cases. The trick or key is to have a plan. Harley's Plans are basically clear blueprints that put the ball in YOUR court - they give you control of your life, teach you new relationship skills, help you gain back your self-esteem (which takes a severe beating when an affair occurs), give you clear objectives and goals, and give you a timeline which is based on Harley's observations of hundreds of his own clients.<P>One of the things which has helped me to maintain my sanity is having that certainty that I am making a better person of myself by following these plans. Another thing is KNOWING that he will one day regret what he has done - my own reading research has shown me that is the most likely outcome at some point.<P>People tell me "you have to move on" but y'know something? In many ways I AM moving on - I am moving on to becoming a better person, I am moving on to being able to stand up for myself, I am moving on to a better life for myself. I will always love my husband. Plan B will never change that. What Plan B will do for me, IF it doesn't bring my husband back, is enable me to place that part of my life in the past without anger or other bad feelings. I think when Harley talks about "losing love" for your spouse in a properly done Plan A/Plan B sequence, he is referring to that "addiction" aspect of "love" that is similar to the addiction that the spouse has with the OP. I don't think that when you truly "love" someone, and you do a proper Plan A/Plan B, you ever stop "loving" them. You just realize that you can live without them! And THAT can be a major revelation to many of us - particularly those of us who have, perhaps, suffered from depression or have allowed our spouses to become our entire lives.<P>OK ... well, once again, my comments have become sermons! But I hope this sermon has helped someone. No, I do not "worship" at the church of Harley - I just recognize that he has laid out a clear path to a set of goals that other therapists and specialists recognize as well.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I can see clearly now,<BR>the rain is gone ...

Lu, thanks for your responses. I don't feel that I pushed my H to the PA. I know that they say it is a matter of time. And No, I do not think they were totally physical until recently. I base this only on OP's H who has been given every stinking detail (which I have not)<P>Plus, based on my H's behavior. Right before I backed off he admitted to being out of control.<P>In some ways.... By giving him what he thinks is an ultimatum, it gave him permission to do it because he was P***** at me for not talking to him.<P>Like I said. No matter what happens now.. It is an affair.. for both of them. I still think that there is more shame, guilt and reality when it is physical and not only emotional.<P>And he was not SEEING me... He was obsessing about her. At one point he even said that he could not remember being intimate with me. ANd let me tell you, with three small kids we were way above the national norm in intimacy and all of its variations.<P>I am going to call S Harley. but let me ask you this since you also experienced a giver snap. A big part is the duties with the kids. There was a lot going on with three small kids and their activities etc. He always wanted to be a part of everything, and now he doesn't care.<P>If I am trying to meet his needs based on the snap, and leave the door open, how can I do this when kids will be kids... they demand, they whine, they don't always tow the line. <P>To me, it seems like he does not want any responsibility for them at all. And OP is willing to give up her own kids to accomodate this. Hard to compete with this one.

TT,<P>I read so many posts, I get confused! I just read where you say your H's OP will give up her kids to accomodate him. Good Lord, that says alot for her... Now, we all really know what kind of person she is, don't we?<P>That's pathetic and I'm sure one day (hopefully soon) your H will realize what a shallow person she really is. I know bashing doesn't help you feel better ( I'm the queen of BASH ),but I get so ANGRY when I visualize all of this "lusty, selfish, behavior" and the sacrifices such good,innocent people, especially the children, have to make so they (the sinners) can have their cake and eat it too! <P>Lu:<P>I also feel like my husband has that attitude "well, I'm back, that should make you happy".<P>So much has happened that I really don't remember how he actually came back home. (9 months now). I was very sceptical when he did return home b/c I knew she was not out of his life yet, that didn't happen until 6 months ago. We are still not where I had hoped to be at this point. He is one of those guys that just wants it to "go away" and not think about what we need to do to reconstruct this thing we call a marriage.<BR>I'm having a very difficult time with being intimate w/ him right now, b/c he is not meeting any of my EN's.<P>Berzini,<P>If you really want to be back with your H, then tell him... he is probably thinking that you do not want him after all he has done to you and there is no hope.<P>You need to convey to him that there is hope and I guess, from what I read here, that is when plan A should really be your focus, or if you are like me, maybe there should be a plan C, for those of us who's WS is back and the A is over, and we are stuck in La-La land.<BR>Good luck , when you move to Japan, hows about sending me one of those beautiful Japanese dolls, my brother was stationed there many years ago, brought me one home and my cat tore that thing up and I miss my doll b/c my brother is no longer with us.<P>I know I'm not as good as some of these wonderful people on this site , but I just wanted to add my 2 cents worth. <P>Anyone out there that can help me in La-La land please let me know!<P>Thanks, Cathy

Hi Too Trusting,<P> I'm glad you are not blaming yourself.....There's enough misery already!!! Anyway, my H became very distant from the kids and their activities.....basically I felt like a single mom for a long time....I thought he was working sooo hard and I was being the good wife...HA, he was travelling with the OW, and spending tons of time with her.<P>However, when I went to Plan B I set up what visitation would be like if there was a divorce. I had help from Steve H....every other weekend etc. The first weekend I left with girlfriends and he had them all to himself,they were depressed and angry and gave him a taste of what life would be for him. I was not there to buffer the situation and guilt set in big time.<P>As far as meeting his needs, really the only ones that I could meet were family support, (taking care of his kids), and handling the money ,running the house. When I went to Plan B I opened his own acct. had the money split up automatically and he was shocked with what he would be left with....more reality. <P>Anyway, this is what worked for me, Steve H was great and gave me HOPE and a plan, so that I wasn't spinning my wheels(still felt bad but at least had a little more control)<P>Take care! LU

To Lu,<P>I'm sorry for no acknowledging your father's death. I'm very sorry and I'm certain that this is a very difficult time for you, I too have lost my father, and I can't imagine what it would be like to deal with your H and lose your dad at the same time. Please accept my condolences and I will pray for you and your family. God bless you.<P>Cathy

HI Cathy,<P> We were posting at the same time....I'm were you are, in la la land but really it's better. We basically had no counseling in recovery because of so many things happening this year, my father's death, my daughter was shot (she's ok), we moved.....you name it.<P>I feel that we have lagged behind because we haven't had much of a plan and put it all on the back burner. I intend on changing that here soon. My H (like yours and fairly typical of the betrayer) wants it all to go away. Meanwhile I'm stuck here with alot of resentments etc and NOT having my needs met like I think I should be(my taker is on a rampage!) <P>I Need to call Steve again.... LU

Hi Cathy ,<BR> <BR> We keep posting at the same time!.....thank you for your condolences. It all happened so fast, he was only 65 and a wonderful, wonderful father. My resentment towards my H stems from although we moved and and were in recovery I found out he was still calling the OW during the time my father was sick. That has stopped but it was alot to deal with......<P>Sounds like we are on the same timeline....we are about 12mos. into recovery (give or take some phone calls)....LU

This is a pretty much after the fact question, but I am wondering: how many agree to legal separation for plan B? For visitation of children and living arangments and so forth? Obviously, you are not going get a logical response from someone who is so deep in his affair that he can't think straight about these kinds of things, but on the other hand, a legal separation kind of puts a lid on things.<P>I am just wondering, because while my husband was at the peak of his romance, I called up and said "Okay, what's going down with that divorce you asked for? Are you going to do it?"<P>He said "Why can't we get a separation? Why do we have to decide right now?" I told him that I didn't see what good that was going to do, either you are married or you are not married, in my book. To me, a separation is just a license to fool around and not feel TOO guilty for it.<P>Well, Catplay, I feel like a baby just learning to walk, too, after reading all the posts put here by all these intelligent people. I am still dealing with anger and heartbreak, and everyday, I get to thinking "Why should I try? Working on my marriage is like trying to get a murderer to not only admit to killing someone, but try to bring the victim back to life!"<P> It seems like an overwhelming feat, and I don't know if I am up to the task. It seems like a lot of effort to try to keep someone in your life when they do nothing but treat you like dukey. Sometimes, I really wonder what my purpose here is.<P>Anyways, like I said, I was very sick last night and on top of that, tried to call my husband in Japan all night. I have no idea where he was. Now I am the one who is thinking that I have driven him away. I mean, he's been out on ship all night, and he comes back to an empty house--all he has to do is go down to the Gate 2 district and pay the bar fine, and guess what? Some cute little geisha will come fulfill his "emotional needs." ( I am getting kind of fed up with the EN thing--my husband did not want to be loved, he wanted to be spoiled and worshipped!!)<P>I think that is very interesting what you said, Chris. I am keeping that in mind. It is hard for me to deal with, too.

Hi B,<P> When I went to Plan B I had a "separation agreement"drawn up . Basically, all of the assets and support are decided upon along with visitation .... if there is a divorce the conditions are set in stone. My h signed it because he felt so guilty. <P> I did it so that I wouldn't have to be begging for $ and that I wouldn't have to deal with him in Plan B....the lawyer said it was best to do this early since once the OW gets their say who knows what they'll do. <P>I was advised not to do a legal separation but just the "separation agreement"....I think it varies from state to state. In my case the papers were another "reality" for my H......LU

But people I know in "real life" most often tell me that they hardly ever come back, that they rarely feel regret, or if they do they don't let you know it. I have no way of judging which is true, because I have never met anyone whose spouse left after anywhere near as long as my H and I have been together. When I heard about Ann Landers, I thought it was an extremely strange aberration.

Hi Nellie,<P> When I was counseling with Steve he said most don't come back if the door is closed and the other person has moved on.....that happens alot too. <P> I personally know of 4 cases where the H and (one w) came back....well, 5 if I count myself. One of the couples were separated for 5 years and the H was living with OW. He came back and they were together until he died. LU

Lu, When I backed away as he was still in the height of his "change", I also told him to start getting his own paychecks and giving me child support. Prior to this he would just let them be deposited in our joint account and ask me for money and say things like "what do I need money for"<P>I also started the every other weekend visitation stuff. But my kids responded differently. Our eldest's MO is to deny or to change the circumstances to meet her needs. Even though she is in great pain and he won't see it (her grades dropped, she won't sleep alone) she finds any crumb and makes it OK. She will walk on eggshells for her dad. When she heard about the D she just said oh well, I'm sad, but you're still my daddy and now I get to go to two houses and etc. etc. She is the kind of person who will see a dead animal on the street and say, well, maybe it's just sleeping and it will wake up soon.<P>My son is similar to H and will bury his emotions. He feels as betrayed as me.<P>Our littlest one doesn't know exactly what's going on.. She cries at night and will bet her dad to come home, but he just shuts it out.<P>Plus he just gets irritated when they are not acting like little adults and even that seems to fuel is resolve.<P>Remember, I am dealing with the master manipulator. I have always known this about her and like a fool would defend her to people and say "well, she works really hard for H"<P>My son mentioned today that he woke up at his dad's hungrey at 11pm and found H on the phone. I guess they just can't go a day without talking dreamily of their love. I swear, my H was the same way with me.<P>Yes, you would think that he would notice that she was "a christian", a married woman who chased him despite knowing me and the kids, a woman who told his office staff we had long term marital problems, who told our kids teachers we are getting a D. Who called herself the office wife. I don't think I have ever been treated so heartless by two people in all my life. It makes me dizzy to even think about it.<P>Plan B just did not work. He just got mad. She used every bit to turn it against me. I really feel the best thing to do is to just stand aside. I would bet she comes here or reads what to do. It could take years for reality to hit, especially if she doesn't have her kids.<P>I have such a hard time comprehending how people could treat people so thoughtlessly. Their behavior was so blatant. Every thing a slap in the face to me.<P><BR>ANd I just have to take it. Yes, the plans are definately for making you a better person, but I have to tell you, I really feel cheated out of my life.<P>It's like I got punished for staying home raising three kids, and not meeting his needs in the one hour he was home with me (while he was with her all the rest)<P>And now, as the grandiosity of it all starts to drop (in H's behaviour) it is like "I'm sorry for hurting you and the kids" "you don't deserve this", but I'm doing it anyway.<P>Obviously I'm feeling a bit hopeless today.

TT:<P>Do you have a support group in your area for separated or divorcing individuals. Look in your newspaper classifieds. Maybe there is a group that could be of some help and much needed support for you.<P>Your situation reminds me of a couple in my town... She finally gave up waiting b/c he just couldn't "get it".<P>When I asked her for advice, boy, was she ever hostile to me and she told me flat out that if my H came back "we wouldn't make it.<BR>She was so negative and her words still ring in my ears.<P>I can imagine how flustered you are and also emotionally drained. I really feel bad for you, and wish I could slap him and say "snap out of it". But...<P>Maybe you should stand aside and let it go for now, that plan B pretty much tells us to do that, don't you think? But that is so hard to do, isn't it.<P>Thinking of you,<BR>Cathy

CP, there are no support groups here. I am OK. I don't have much choice. And I really think I was fighting a losing battle. <P>They are truly in a romantic affair. My H is a romantic. Plus they have the added advantage of "us against the world" (even his mother.)<P>I could tell that if our 5 year old pleading with him wouldn't make him see, and counseling wouldn't make him see, then he will just have to see for himself.<P>He wasn't seeing me, or hearing me at all. He may never. I'm just standing firm, but aside. I'll try to do the right thing... with my children and with myself.<P>I don't think I would be hostile to anyone re" the situation of if they were in one. I think my H is missing a key ingredient for this to work. You have to have an intact conscience. I believe that you have to look to a higher source than yourself. <P>And I still won't hate him. I've had many other tragedies and hurts in my life and I managed to get through them and I will this one as well.<P>I see in him that he almost has relief. He is "off the hook" so to speak. Now that he knows I know.. he can just do it. <P>Somewhere, (perhaps further up on this post), someone talked about boundaries. Loving others but realizing you can only be responsible for your actions.<P>I think he just gave out in the giving area.<P>He just wants to do what he wants to do. He's not getting younger you know (that's something he said to me.).. Guess he wants to focus on work and being the best at that. He just conviently had a person who adored him at his side, works hard, and oh yeah, he can have sex with her too. (sarcasm intended)

Yes--filing the paperwork IS a reality, and that's why I asked my husband to do it. He said that he wanted a divorce, but when it came down to getting one, he couldn't. But that plan backfired--he was thinking that I was the one that wanted a divorce after I called and bugged him for it. (tyring to force him to see reality.)Because I didn't want a separation. Either married or not is what I said. So it just pushed him further into his affair--that was the point where they started having sex. So I can understand what you were thinking, TooTrusting.<P>TooTrusting:<P>I'm sorry you're feeling bad today. I felt the exact same way last weekend: no hope.<P>I am like you, three kids, and here I am raising them on my own. You know how they say every woman needs some "me" time? Well, that's a far-fetched idea for me. Every minute of the day, I am talking Backstreet Boys with my 11 year old, horses, puppies and kittens with my 9 year old, and monsters and cartoon network with my 5 year old. I tried to go for a walk the other day at sunset, and I left my son with my mom. When I came back, the whole house was tearing their hair out because he cried the whole time. He thought that I had left, just like dad did. I can't even leave my kids for an hour! Everyone will be in school this year, that's my only salvation.<P>It enrages me that the OW left her kid with her husband so that she could fool around with my husband. How can a flaming romance blaze when there are kids underfoot? I feel like a permanent babysitter. I got pushed out of the way--not because I wan't fun or meeting his needs, but because I had to be a responsible mother who loved my children. And she wasn't. That's what made her so fun. They could meet anywhere, anytime, bars, restaurants, hotels, and have tons of fun because they had automatic babysitters.<P>Cheer up, TooTrusting. If I were there with you, we could do the Chuckee Cheese thing and spend $50 bucks we don't have for pizza and tokens--for an hour of solitude and grown-up talk. How refreshing it would be to have an adult to relate to for once!

I went to plan B rather quickly.. But I did it before I read Harley's book. I was in plan B for 2 months.. My h was living with the ow. Within a few weeks, my h was calling me crying, saying he knew he screwed up. I asked him not to contact me until he showed me he was no longer with her. I told him I needed to see action and not just words. As more time went by the more panicked he got. He would leave me a letter at our home because I refused to see him. I ignored the letters for the most part,, only responded to the business side of the letter. (money, house, etc.) Then, when he still wanted to page me on my pager and leave me voice mails, I changed my pager number.... The whole time I was nice, but firm.. Kept telling him I loved him, but did not want to see him or have contact with him until it was over.. <P>Finally, after I changed my pager number he left one last note at the house telling me he wanted me back.... I blew the note off, so he wrote another one,,,,,he was very panicked.. I finally paged him and left him a message to call me, if and only if he was serious about breaking it off with the ow, and making and effort toward everything we needed to do to save our marriage. <P>He called, right away.. Came over that night, and we made a plan... A few days later on our anniversary, he finally ended it with ow, moved out of the apartment and back home...<P>That was 14 months ago and we are doing wonderful. Actually,, my marriage is awesome!! Its taken a lot of work to get here, but it was worth it.. <P>My h did experience some heavy withdrawal for the 4-5 months after he came back home, but he gradually got better... We are doing very well now..<P>