WS,<P>I guess there is really something to that "intuition". I am sure that we can tell when our spouses are lying, whether they are lying to protect us, or whatever. You can tell, and we can rationalize a 100 times over, but if something isn't right, you can just feel it, and one thing we have to believe is in our feelings.<P>Don't feel foolish. You were trying to believe him, you really were. I could tell that you have doubted for a while now that things weren't quite right. But does that mean you have been a fool for 500 years? NO. You really wanted to believe he was telling you the truth. I really believe you did. It just didn't feel right. What does that tell you? It tells you that YOU are trustworthy, YOU are the one that is "on track here".<P>I want to do something to your husband just like all the rest of your MB friends. It isn't fair what he has been doing!<P>My husband brought home the movie "presumed innocent" with Harrison Ford. UGGH, Don't watch it! That was Fri night. He has a problem of "Insensitivity to the betrayed spouse" and I couldn't get over his insensitivity for 2 days after that! Then, there was another show that was on - Sunday night, and it was a kid in high school who shot a classmate because the classmate was cheating with his girlfriend. Mr. Insensitive to Betrayed Spouses thought the cheating girlfriend shouldn't share any moral or ethical consequences for her decision to cheat. The boyfriend (the murderer) got 51 years in prison and the other guy was dead. That little bimbo's decisions ended up directly affecting and ruijning two lives, and who knows how many affected family members and classmates. But, as far as my husband is concerned, she isn't really responsible. Huh? How do you figure? I think we will never be on the same page as far as the infidelity goes.<P>Maybe it is the same for your husband. He truly does not believe he is harming anyone.<P>This is WRONG. He is harming you, to the max. He has harmed himself more than he harmed you, and he enabled bimbo to be the queen bimbo. <P>Wassi, you remember, you don't deserve this.<P>I will say a prayer for you. I know this has got to be the hardest day of your life. You are not alone, sister. We care, we pray for you, and you are NOT alone. Feel those prayers.<P>TNT

TnT, I knew you were out there tonight. I think about you all the time, too.<P>WS...I gotta go to bed. I have to sleep up to have the energy to listen to my 5 year old who NEVER stops talking!<P>Love you guys lots!

TNT<BR>I feel like a fool. He is on his way home. It doesn't matter what he says. How does one recover from that many years of lies? How do I ever believe a thing he says. Who the He*l is he?<BR>FHL<BR>Like I said in my e-mail....loveya. Who would have eveer guessed 1 1/2 years ago that I would get to feel this again? Over the same sl*t?

Wassi, you are <B> NOT </B> a fool. He is the fool. I am sorry Wassi, I should keep my big fat mouth shut (or should that be my big fat fingers still ?) it just makes me soooooooooo flipping angry to see my friends hurt like this over and over. I know how hard and how long you have tried. <P>I wish we could keep them hooked up to lie detectors 24/7 sometimes. AAAaaarrrrgggghhhhh !<P>Feel free to call Mike stuopid anytime you want to. Heck I think the time Chris told him he was being an @$$ did more good than any amout of words from me ! (I admit I still giggle like a loon over that one somedays.) <P>We love you Wassi. Let me know how you are, take care of you right now. <P>{{{{{{{{ MONDO HUGS TO WASSI }}}}}}}}}<P>PS, we can have an old fashioned Texas neck tie party if you want to . <P>

Well it is morning and I am up, again. Your H is probably home.<P>Anyway, there are a bunch of us that really care about you here.<P>Please let us know how you are. <P>Remember, you are bigger than this!

Oh, Honey, I'm so sorry I'm late! Thanks to the angel who let me know you were here.<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{Wassi}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>It's been so hard for you....I'm almost speechless (yes, even me) and so furious with him I could throttle him myself. <P>I'm like Connie...I don't believe it's love for her...or even attraction...spinelessness maybe, stupidity, definitely. <P>Oh, Honey, I'm so sorry. Peppermint's got the right idea. And great advice.<P>Take care of yourself right now, dear friend. You need that. You deserve that. You most certainly don't deserve this deception.<P>I hope he's home. I hope you guys are talking...I hope he's telling the truth. <P>I know this is disjointed....I'm crying myself. But we are here with you and we love you....I dont know what I'd have done without you.<P>Let us know you're ok.<P>Love,<P>Lori<P>

Deb<BR>Love the lie detector idea..and the necktie party.<P>FHL<BR>Thank you for being there always. I'm here..I'm alive...H is too for the time being. <P>Lori<BR>Thank you too. I used several of those words last night when he came home. I know this is not the affair starting again. It is more lies though.<P>So here is the update:<BR>Give him credit for one thing....the minute he heard my messages on his voicemail he started home. 3 hour drive.<BR>He did not have the courage to call me. I got through on his cell on the way home. called him every name in the book.<P>When he got here I let loose all 125 pounds of my rage. I was quiet enough that my 19 year old didn't even know his father was home. Pretty talented huh? I'm getting pretty skilled at this.<P>Of course he had the story prepared. I only have proof of two real calls since April. The others were obviously messages on her answering machine.<P>His reason?<BR>She has some things of his he wants back and he has some things of hers stashed away in a bin. This is supposedly a good thing. He was trying to "finalize" things.<BR>He couldn't give me closure with a no contact letter. Uh uh.<BR>It doesn't matter whether he talked to her once or a hundred times. He started lying to me after the first call. I would ask him on occasion...give him the opportunity to clear up any lies. <BR>Somehow his warped mind does not get the concept of honesty. Never will. He was doing me a favor by keeping this secret? Didn't I see how this was a good thing?<P>So I asked him what's next. Do they need to talk 20 more times before they finalize the arrangements to return each others things behind my back? Where were they going to meet? Was she coming here to get her things? He was really going to get things that have been in her house all this time and bring them into our home? After all the times I have asked him to get rid of triggers he was going to bring in more?<P>I could go on and on. Fact is....he hasn't a clue...FHL I think I have you beat on clueless H's.<P>He has no real answers. Except that he is an idiot. I told him he was not allowed that excuse anymore. That he is cruel. This was cruel. Stupidity can only be used as an excuse so long. I think his time limit was up over a year ago.<P>Now I have gone on long enough. Wanted you to know I'm here. We are both alive. My kids don't know a thing. They won't. Not yet.<BR>Still not sure what I will do.<BR>I have thought of bringing him to the forum. Hoping that some of you could try to explain to him what he must do. I can't anymore. I can't try to get through to him. It has all been such a waste of time. Right back where I started. <BR>

So glad to hear from you this morning.<P>Yup, your H is the Grand Champion of clueless.<P>At least he calls himself an idiot. And I bet that is one thing he is being honest about.<P>I don't know how you learn honesty. I mean it is one thing (still not an excuse) if your relationship is not safe enough to be honest, but you worked your...well you've done all you can do to set the stage for honesty.<P>I don't think he "gets" that he may have thrown his whole future away and crushed you for the sake of a few personal effects.<P>He sacrificed his personal integrity in your eyes and your trust, which is priceless, for a few material items.<P>And he can't even wrap his mind around that concept. <P>It is so profoundly sad.

{{{{{{wasstubborn}}}}}}:<P>It saddens me whenever there I read a new post of a second Dday. My 2 dday was about the same time as peppermint's. I have no new advice to give you but just wanted to let you know my thoughts and prayers are with you.<P>You are a very strong person!!!!!!<P><BR>Judy<BR>

Hi Wassi,<P>Can I just say first that I am sick with the flu so I am sure everything I say is going to be a bit odd.<P>Sorry you still having to go through this crap. Glad though that you were able to vent away on him. I am not sure you H will ever understand the pain he causes. Not sure he means to be a blue mennie but selfish jerks just do not get it. Tony is the same way. <P>{{{{{{{{{Wassi}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} Really take the time to figure out what you want. It might be good that he is not there. Now would be a good time to get a list going of what he has to do to stay in the marriage. Take the time to decide what you want and how you want it to happen. <P>I know you feel like such a fool. Why feel that of way. You gave it 100% to try and repair the marriage. He should be the one feeling like the fool for hurting you. Maybe you should step back and not talk to him for a bit and give him a mini plan B. Time to clear your head and focus on you and your wants.<P>Wassi I feel awful. My heart sank when I read your post. You deserve so much more than this. You are a wonderful person. I remember all the times you have been there for me. Thank you very much. Just remember it is not you...there is some issues within your H that you have no control over.

FHL<BR>Funny you mentioned integrity. I asked him last night if he ever wanted to have integrity. If there was any part of him that wanted to be an honest person. His answer was yes. I don't believe he is capable.<P>bighope<BR>Thank you. This is way more than D-day 2 for me. I don't think there is any hope left here. I must stay together for the kids a little longer. That is the only thing I know for sure. They have been through far too much already. My youngest graduates this year and I would like to see it through. Not destroy it for him.<P>Paha<BR>Sorry you have the flu.<BR>He is here. I have no idea what to do. I really don't know that there is anything that can be done. He has just turned another year of my life into lies. <BR>I am just defeated. I can't believe that he thought anything in my last post could have been a good thing in any way.I have no idea who this man is.<P>If anyone has any ideas for me or him.....please go for it. I have run out of everything.

Just like you to put your kids ahead of yourself. I completely understand and applaud you for your priorities....<P>...as long as you can keep it together and reclaim yourself in the process.<P>You won't be protecting your kids if they see you shrivel emotionally. I am sure you are a good actress...heck I know I am...but I think your sons are old enough and perceptive enough and reasoned enough to see through your act.<P>Now I have no doubt that you can maintain your dignity and reclaim yourself for yourself even with your H in the house. Since your H is not abusive and it is in your sons' best interest to have their dad, I understand that you just want to get through the year.<P>BUT if you do this, I think you have to come up with a plan to give yourself emotional rest. Can you live with your H and work toward healing yourself?<P>Your sons will need you the rest of your life, you obviously are their rock and they love and respect you.<P>Don't compromise your health for the sake of temporary equalibrium. If you can do both, great. If you can't....take a good look at that curb and practice your kick

Here, just checking on you.<P>COULD he come here? WOULD he come here? Is it too late?<P>Honey, rest now. Cry and grieve and get yourself some rest. You are the #1 priority at this point.<P>There is nothing good in what he says, and he knows it. Seems more like a child trying to come up with feeble excuses than a man...he knows that too.<P>It is time, Wassi. For you, you deserve it. But also for him. If he will listen, if he will learn, if he will grow......and if he loves you and his family, he will....it is time for him to mature, to face his demons and resolve his issues. You can't do this for him, he must do it for himself.<P>You've done it all...everything you could. He must work now...or lose all that's ever really been important to him. It's his turn...to be more than honest with you, but honest with himself.<P>I'll be checking on you all day. We still love you adn we are here.<P>Love,<P>Lori

Wassi,<P>I am not sure what I am doing is something you should do...but like you I seem to always find out about more women. Well you have the same woman...I have many OW.<P>This is what I am doing now. I am reconnecting to me. My wants my desires. I find that I am 32 years old. Where do I want my life to be at 35. No way do I want this garbage at 35. I would rather be alone. More than likely I will be alone. Lets face it as women age they get less appealing to men. Top that off with all the weight gain due to all of Tony's affairs I am less than desirable. <P>I am in the process of getting my life in order. I want to move in a new direction for my career so I am working on that. I have my house and I am fixing it up. Granted Tony does a huge amount around the house. I like having a handy man around...but at what cost. <BR>With every new woman he introduces to our lives it crushes one more part of my inner soul. I have become a weak person. I use to be so strong. I use to be such a great person no I am full of anger, resentment, and affraid of life. <P>Tony and I seem to co-exist in the house of late. I tried to talk to Tony about him trying to be with S while on vaction. All he said was you were on MB again. Leave it alone. What a jerk. He hurts me over and over again and he cares more about the debates. <P>Tony is scared of loosing me but does nothing to keep his member to himself. Yes he is in therapy but I know for a fact that Tony has not told the therapist the entire truth. Now that the therapist is pushing for him to act like an adult Tony is saying that he does not wish to go anymore. <P>Me I am just working on me and gaining my strength back. I will need it becuase Tony does not want to move out. I have already told his family if this keeps up I want him to leave. Really why live life like this? I am just trying to gather my self up. I am figuring out excatly what I want out of life. <BR>When Tony is in an agreeable mood life with him is fun and I like it. But his agreeable moods are far and few between and I have to really examine if I want to support him for the rest of my life and be his whipping post. <BR>I gave up a lot to be with him and he has done nothing to show he apreciates this. I know Tony understands what he is doing is wrong but he does nothing to repair the damage. <P>Wassi you are a wonderful person. What do you want for yourself. Really take the time and figure it out and then act on it. You can survive without him or you can survive with him. Either way figure out what your H has to do to stay with you or if you rather have a new chapter in your life without him. <P>I am giving Tony two options. get on the Paha train or move out. Time will tell which one wins. I do not want you to think I am hogging your post with my problems. I am not trying to do that at all. I want you to know I understand exactly how it feels right now and let you know what I am doing in my life. I know this is not right for everyone but I just know for me it has to change. I can not live with finding new women every six month in my life. I need peace of mind. Find out what you need and want and how it can work for you. This is all I am trying to do.

Aw Wassi,<BR>I'm so sorry. Are there only 12 male brains on earth? You know the roller coaster I was on, and my H finally got it, before he was as confused & limboish as any WS on the board. Other than prayer & my shutting the door once he walked out again, I do not know where he found himself.<P>I do not know what I would have done had Guard not left the last time. I couldn't bear the half-heartedness, the trying but not succeeding. It was just so clear once he left, my Plan A was over. There wasn't going to be any more effort from me, other than polite & pleasant & whatever accomodations needed to be made.<P>He picked up the ball and he's in the game. An excellent husband. And I began to believe after about 5 months.<P>In your situation, without the separation, I don't know how to advise you.<P>My belief & trust in Guard is raising every day. I think that I would know if he went off his path again...but you know what? In my heart I realize that I would probably know, but would I deal with it? If he began to lie, would I believe his lies again? I find that thought too scary to think about most days. But one day that I was able to think, I thought about the "markers" of his affair:<P>-he doesn't look me in the eye<BR>-he doesn't touch me<BR>-he avoids me<BR>-he works late, he leaves for work earlier<BR>-his work schedule varies & he can't be reached<BR>-he says he goes out for lunch with friends<P>And if any of these happen now, we talk.<P>Wassi, if you are going to continue in the same house & in the marriage, you have to know what "goes against your gut". Your H has to deal kindly & patiently with you when it does.<P>I know this goes against MB, but after 2 years of crap, your H deserves to hear exactly what infuriates you. Maybe you can do that without LBing now after you've purged some of the pain & agony, but you simply cannot bury the wounds--they will fester and you will become...not-Wassi.<P>Any changes your H makes are completely within his control. You've done everything you can. Give him the ball and step back. Leave the court even. Having the Bimbo AND you in his life is not an option. My God, UPS can ship pretty much everything and Canada must have a version of it.<P>He needs to win you.<P>JMHO<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."<BR>(Proverbs 15:1).

Wassi,<P>I'm not here often, but saw this post just this morning, and couldn't pass it by...<P>I'm so sorry! I completely agree that intuition is alive and well in most of us, if only we will listen. I know it hurts... but it is so often true. I "knew" it with David's last OW, he denied, but I just KNEW it. I understand.<P>Just wanted you to know that there's another who's thinking of you today.<P>Hugs, Sheryl

Good morning Wassi,<P>I read through your posts, and can tell that you are regaining some of your strength. Until I read all of them I had no idea how much we have in common. My youngest child is a senior in high school this year. If not for her, I would have given up on this marriage from the beginning of the infidelity, even though I do not believe in divorce.<P>Another comment I wanted to share with you that the counselor told me is this- your husband's decision to have an affair came from within him for reasons that he doesn't understand. The Harley ideas of emotional needs are absolutely right I believe, and the counselor agreed. She said that unfulfilled emotional needs make a person unhappy and unsatisfied, but they do not make a person have an affair. Therefore no amount of plan A or B will make them stop the affair. The only reason they will stop must come from within. You can't control it, and YOU HAVE NOTHING TO BE ASHAMED OF. You have not failed in keeping your marriage safe from an affair, your husband has. You have been successful at trying to save your marriage, your husband has failed to keep his honor, integrity, and trustworthiness. YOU HAVE NOT FAILED, but he has.<P>You have continued to do the right thing and keep your family together. To love and protect your children and honor your vows. You have been strong, your husband is the weak one. No one is strong enough to carry the weight of a marriage alone.<P>It must be all about you right now. You must decide the right course of action FOR YOU. I have decided to stay in this marriage definitely until my daughter is settled in college, and to give firestorm every opportunity to change into the kind of husband that will take half the weight of this marriage. If he can't do that, I will need to alter my decision and course of action accordingly.<P>I will survive, with or without firestorm. I truly hope it will be with him as God intended, but I will be alright either way. YOU WILL BE TOO. You will be able to live your life with the love and respect of your children, family, friends, and most of all yourself. Your husband still has the chance to get back all of those things, but he must start right now making the necessary changes. If he refuses to do that, save yourself with a clear conscience.<P>I will continue to keep you in my thoughts and prayers. Please keeping talking to us. If you want to email me, let me know and I will send you my address. I wish there was more I could do for you.<P>Peppermint

Wassi, some people are just stupid!<P>Last night when I read this post it made me physically ill.<P>Jeez, I don't want that! Not that I have the option yet, but I'm still waiting.<P>Hang on WS. You've been throught the ringer already. A bit more will only make you stronger.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

WS:<P>What Sheryl said; I don't check often any more myself, but couldn't let this go by.<P>Thoughts and prayers to you... I really don't know what else to say... <P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die

Peppermint,<P>You may be able to give our dear friend here more help than any of us, right now.<P>I don't want to divert the subject, but I think you clarified what many of us have been trying to say when we post that this is his issue, not hers.<P>Peppermint, I could be wrong, but I am sensing a subtle change in attitude in you as your recovery progresses.<P>How are you walking the fine line of recovering within your marriage, while acknowledging the ball is in your H's court?<P>How are you guarding your emotions and reclaiming your sense of self, while actively rebuilding?<P>It must be an incredibly delicate balance, and maybe Wassi could benefit with how you are achieving it from day to day.<P>Peppermint, I must say you are sounding strong!