Many of us have a harder time getting over the lies than the affair itself. Initially, many of us also question the entire marriage (what was truth, what was a lie, etc.)<P>So my question (for both betrayer and betrayed) is: Are the lies related to the affair only or has the betrayer been dishonest in other aspects over the course of the marriage? <P>Unfortunately, I have found that my H has a problem w/honesty in general. Took me a long time to realize that. He's not the "I invented the internet" type of liar, but... he lies. Moreso lies of ommission, but outright lies during/about the affairs.<P>Any thoughts?<BR>Enlightened<P>

Enlightened-<P>Here's my view on it. If the betrayer couldn't or wouldn't lie...there would have been no A to begin with. Honest people don't cheat, and Cheaters are not Honest.<P>I had to edit this because, I didn't want people to think I was coming off like a saint, or being rude. I am not. This is a very touchy subject for me. My H wouldn't even know what honesty was, if it bit him in the a#$.<P>Noodles<p>[This message has been edited by noodles (edited October 21, 2000).]

Enlightened,<P>I truely believe that the only thing my wife has ever lied to me about is the A.<P>I think that althougth she does not tell me everything, she has always been truthful about the things that she does tell me, I have never doubted her word.<P>Mike

Except when he was involved in the actual secret part of the affair, I don't think my WS has lied to me...in fact most of the time he has been brutally honest... and believe me that can hurt just as bad as the lies.<P>But I think that honesty stems from a feeling that he is right....and that there is no reason for dishonesty. He's always been a person who could justify things to himself or rationalize things away....so to him it is the truth. But at least I can expect to ask him a questions and get the truth...even if I don't want to know as much as he's willing to tell me. His conviction of his rightness has to be strong to maintain his stupidity in everyone elses eyes. If you're always right...then everyone else is always wrong.<P>So truth is just looking at things his way. <P>Angels and Prayers ~ Faye

I hate to post this ... but .... "YES", I believe my H does lie about other things as well. And I too think his lies are lies of omission. I also believe he likes sneaking around and lieing. As I remember back thru the years ... I seem to pick up on many times there were indiscretions on his part, things that didn't add up, guilty behavior for reasons I couldn't put my finger on.<P>I believe his lieing and inability to be truthful is an ingrained part of his psyche, and unfortunetly I feel that I enabled his lieing by not questioning my innate intuition that something wasn't quite right.<P>So folks, how do you manage a marriage or love and be intimate in a marriage that is filled with lies???<P>Will they ever be able to be honest with you or anyone they have a love relationship with? I mean, is it just the combo of he and I ... or will he always be dishonest with any woman???<P>In addition there has been one time he was so emotional (a couple yrs back) where he told me he lies all the time. We talked about it and I felt likes his mommy or something telling him he needs to stop lieing and be honest or we could never be really close. And then a few months back in our counsleing session he told the counselor the same, he said he lies even when he doesn't have to, small things. Jeeez!<P>Jo

Resilient<P>I could have written your post! Well said.<BR>

Thanks to all for your replies.<P>Noodles,<BR>I've followed your posts on the pg/child board and know that you have a tough situation to deal with. My prayers to you. I don't post there but admire those who have found the strength to deal w/OC in their marriages. <P>I am drawn to that area also because of one of the many lies my H told me. The first being that it was not physical. The next being that he had used protection. When he was finally ready to break it off for good, she announced she was pregnant. I believe it was a ploy based on how the events transpired, but never found out for sure as we got a restraining order against her shortly thereafter and never heard from her again. I still wonder in the back of my mind, what I would do if she ever showed up on our doorstep....<P>RE: honesty; after my first discovery, I questioned the trustworthiness of everyone around me. I had always been one to keep my circle of "true" friends small, but I began to question the motives of those that really didn't deserve to be questioned. Fortunately, in my experience, not all of the dishonest people I know cheat on their mates, but they can do some other rather devious things. <P>Mike,<BR>I'm happy for you that the lies are limited to the affair only. I can tell you that our "recovery" is that much more difficult when dealing a consistent liar.<P>Buffy,<BR>I read you often and you communicate so eloquently. <P>I think my H's need to be dishonest stems from something deeper within him also. He's a people-pleaser and says what you want to hear, but his actions say otherwise. Because he is so concerned w/pleasing others, me and the kids often get left w/the short end of the stick.<P>To further clarify to purpose of this poll, I'm wondering if the level of dishonesty relates at all to a couple's ability to recover. <P>I feel it does in my case, because as we work on the issues not related to the affair, when H is not honest and we focus attention on the wrong things. Seems to me that if the betrayer has generally ONLY been dishonest about the affair, the chances of successful recovery are much greater.<P>God Bless,<BR>Enlightened

Jo,<P>I was writing my novel while you were posting <P>My H comes from a family of liars. He knew his family lied and has often commented on it. I suppose he and I thought HE was different.<P>I did question his lies, but he would always tell me why it had to be the way it was versus how he told me it would be. In a way, I suppose I enabled it because I did not set the boundaries. i.e. "I was out w/John because he was feeling bad about him and XXX" and then go on this long story about John and XXX. While story was true, H had told me, he would be X place, at X time and we would do Y.<P>I've finally recognized the people-pleaser tendencies and layed down the boundaries. When he comes in w/the X needed me line, I tell him I don't care about X, I only care about what you promised me.<P>I had to learn to love myself more than I love him. After three affairs, that wasn't hard to do! <P>As far as living w/a liar, I have some thoughts on that, but will post later. Going out tonight!<P>God Bless,<BR>Enlightened<p>[This message has been edited by Enlightened (edited October 21, 2000).]

Enlightened-<BR>I am sure it would be ok if you were to post in oc also. Thank you for following my post, and wishing me well. An A is bad enough, without adding a oc. But we are still dealing with the same thing, I on the other hand just have a living reminder. I am going to quote you here:<P>"The next being that he had used protection. When he was finally ready to break it off for good, she announced she was pregnant. I believe it was a ploy "<P>The first time my H broke it off the OW claimed to have had a miscarriage, my H went back to see her (so he says) because he felt bad for her going through that alone, Hey..who cared that I was pregnant at the time, and about to lose my baby, from large blood clots...Well, looking back on it, I realize she never had one at all, it was also a ploy...and guess what, the very next month..she was pregnant...At least your husband was smart. Mine was dumb..very dumb..Should have seen the writing on the wall, and didn't. And here's the kicker...he didn't bother to use protection, or pull-out..sorry to be so blunt..but..She got what she wanted..now she just don't understand why, her baby don't have a daddy..poor thing..Honesty is something I have really given up on, don't think he can do it, and its tearing us apart. I feel when the continue to lie, in a odd way they are still continuing the affair, with their feel good secrets. What do you think!<BR>God Bless You All<BR>Noodles.

What an interesting topic! Thanks for starting this! I am a newbie here.... so if I mess up..... help me out!<P>My WH was a huge liar during his EA/PA. When he was caught..... I assumed everything that came from his mouth was a lie <B>automatically</B>! Especially "I love you"...... did anyone else experience this? Suspecting the "L" word? I felt he had mis-used the "L" word and therefore it was devalued and counterfeit currency. (No longer true BTW..... we are recovered by Gods grace)<P>Those of you with dishonest spouses now.... my heartfelt sympathy. I nearly left my H after the A was over due to his lies that were non-affair related. He quickly caught on and changed his ways.<P>I decided I had the right to an honest relationship..... my H could join me, or not. He joined, and we are a loving honest working couple !<P>------------------<BR>~*~*Yesterday~*~*<BR>all my problems seemed so far away~*

Unfortunately, firestorm is one of those classic conflict avoiders, so he has the habit of "altering the truth" if he thinks it will avoid a disagreement. He also tends to just be careless about the truth, meaning that he doesn't always tell things the way they really are, especially if his version is more interesting or makes him look better.<P>This has always been a source of significant conflict in our relationship, because my #1 EN is honesty and openness. I knew that he was not truthful about little things (i.e. spending too much money on his "toys", or hanging out with his fire department buddies, etc.), but I always, always believed that he was honest about his love and fidelity. I WAS WRONG!<P>Once a person lies about little things, it gets easy to lie about the big things. Lying is such a habit for some people that it becomes completely ingrained within them. Firestorm IS trying to change with the help of a very good therapist. The root problem of lying is SELFISHENESS, and that is what he needs to overcome.<P>Peppermint

Thanks again for the replies.<P>Noodles,<P>Based on her behavior toward me and some of the things he told me about her after discovery, I knew she was bad news. He couldn't see it; was drawn into to her need to be rescued from her own H. (The H that she married to get into this country, had finally received her citizenship and was ready to dump him) I believe the pg was her last ditch effort to get my H to leave me.<P>When her plan didn't work, she got very ugly w/phone calls to his secretary or anyone who would answer his telephone @ work threatening to send the test results, etc. I suppose that finally broke the fantasy for him and he never went back for more.<P>I don't know that my H was any smarter than yours, just lucky.<P>Sweetpea,<P>Pointing out discrepancies has become a big LB to my H also, but I can't seem to help myself. Actually, I refuse to accept his lies as much as he wants me to.<P>His family lying trait is WIDE eyes. They get this wide-eyed look about them as they spout off their lies. Funny, how it runs in the family <P>Yesterday,<P>Welcome!<P>Yes, I too, questioned his every word and particularly his love for me during affairs. How could he love me and cheat on me?<P>Living with a dishonest person is h#$$. Too much needless time spent debating whether or not it was a lie because in HIS mind it wasn't REALLY a lie. You probably remember the drill.<P>I think liars believe that they HAVE to lie so why confront them on something they HAD to do. Like peppermint stated, its about selfishness.<P>Peppermint,<P>I have also followed your story and wish you and firestorm the very best. I believe you two have what it takes to make it. One thing I did not see from my H was the heartfelt regret and remorse that fs has expressed here on this board. I believe that will make a huge difference in your recovery.<P>My H is the classic "people-pleasing" conflict avoider. Knowing this helps me to understand why he lies but does not help me to accept his lies. <P>I, too, thought that I could be sure of his honesty w/re: to his love and fidelity. I, too, was wrong. This tendencies permeate throughout their psyche (sp) and no area is left untouched.<P>What still baffles me is that while I know he wants to avoid conflict, why does he do or say things that will eventually cause conflict? Is it just the pressure of the moment w/no thought as to the future consequences?<P>God Bless,<BR>Enlightened

"Many of us have a harder time getting ver the lies than the affair itself. Initially, many of us also question the entire marriage (what was truth, what was a lie, etc.)"<P>Exactly. It rips your guts right out.<P>My H was dishonest and is still dishonest about the involvement with the OW and the worst lie of all is that he lies to himself. He told me and the counselors we went to that he had been lying to himself since before we got married! And that Jan/Feb 99 when he really retreated from me, became very low and sad, he "just stopped lying to himself". <P>July 99 we had the D day conversation, he told me he'd lost all passion for me and that he'd been lying to himself for years.<P>He still maintains he isn't in an affair; that his centering himself around her emotionally hasn't destroyed our intimacy.<P>I have accused him of being the worst kind of liar: The kind who lies to himself.<P><BR>Am I a liar? Yes, I can lie. But not very well. And not to myself. <BR><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

Good question! I'm sad to say I discovered I married a pathological liar. <P>If you've read my story on the"How Did You Meet and Fall in Love" thread, you'd think it was a storybook romance...hardly!<P>I found out (the day after D-day) that my W only agreed to go out with me because of revenge! She had already been dating one of my co-workers. He treated her badly, so she wanted to "get back at him" by dating me. I had no idea.<P>So the whole basis of our relationship, from day one was a lie. She hid the fact that her Ex BF was still very much in the picture, as well as my co-worker, and to top it all off, she was never really sure she wanted to marry me!<P>She hid so many things from me, I'm having trouble deciding which parts of the marriage were real and which ones were part of this elaborate game she played with my heart.

Bellevue,<P>So sorry for your pain. It would be very hurtful for spouse to "realize" during an affair that he/she had been lying to themself about the marriage. <P>Now I think most would agree that something was missing for the betrayer, but that is not necessarily something that the betrayed could or even knew to provide. What seems most hurtful is when the betrayer bases the entire marriage on this premise as if the OP can now provide everything the the spouse couldn't/didn't/wouldn't.<P>cjack,<P>I have a very dear friend like your wife. Left her ex-bf to date the guy she eventually married. Started talking to ex shortly before wedding. Announced her divorce 1 month after wedding saying she knew when she walked down the aisle that the she didn't want to marry him. He asked her to stay for a year so he wouldn't be totally humiliated. Left him after a year and married ex-bf. She is now (5 years and (1) affair later) preparing to divorce him also.<P>This friend tends to exaggerate the truth. She has a very warm heart, but tends to rub people the wrong way. She's one of those, "you have to know her" type of people. My friend is happiest when all of the attention and DRAMA is centered on her.<P>God Bless,<BR>Enlightened<BR>

My h's lies were/are striclty affair related. <BR>...........at least i think so.........at least that is what he says!

cl...I could have written your reply.<P>Shortly after D-day, I asked my H how I could ever believe a word he says, since I now knew he was capable a lying to me.<P>He said he only lied about the affair.<P>At that time we were married 16 years and I had never caught him in another lie of any kind or even suspected. He doesn't exaggerate either.<P>So he lied a total of about 3 months. A very small unit in 16 years...and extremely small if we are fortunate to be married 50 years or more.<P>But I suspect I will always quality my answer just like cl. Does my H lie? No...well at least I don't think so.<P>Kind of sad such sweet trust can be shattered over something so stupid.<P>

I guess the thing that bothers me most about the lies is, you come into marriage and believing that you have married "a certian type of person" Then after 10 years, you figure out that it was not that way at all. Things that you never dreamed they could do, they did, things you couldn't dream they would say, they said. For me it was as if I lived a 10 year illusion with this man I didn't even know. It was devistating to realize I had married a story writer. By this I mean, it depended on who he was around what his story was. Take the OW, he told her , I was this and I was that, basically the wicked witch of the North. He told her I did things (that I did not do) sexually, just to get her to do them, and she was more than happy to tell me about them. To tell me about every lie he had ever told me, or every bad thing that was said about me. You know, they even went as far as plotting to kill me, which she was more than happy to tell me,(but I recorded it) I hate lies, they tear you apart, and rip your heart out..does sorry ever cut it? Wondering

I hate having to qualify everything now. "I THINK ...", "...that I know of", etc.<P>CL and FHL, I'm happy for you that your H's lies were affair-related only. Not that those lies don't hurt, but at least there are somewhat "confined" to a specific event.<P>Noodles,<P>Sounds like your H and OW are a dangerous combination.<P>Since my H lies so much, no, sorry does not cut it for me. I feel that the sorry is more because he was caught in the lie rather than for the lie itself. <P>God Bless,<BR>Enlightened

Enlightened<P>Exactly "I am so Sorry.....I got caught."<P>Nothing more nothing less..<BR>God Bless everyone.<BR>noodles.