HI genie,<BR>It is hard to find the balanc during plan a, and often we find it later. But we DO find it, and that is what matters. Plan a is not being the doormat, but sometimes it sure feels that way! <BR>I do plan a, but with a strong outline of boundaries. THose boundaries include where I will bend and where I am standing real firm. <BR>Some of this self-protection is not always good either. I find myself not able to truly let my guard down and love completely like I used to. I miss that a lot in this relationship. But I do not want to give it up either becuase then the door is wide open for pain if another affiar occurs. <BR>Delicate balance? Yep!

Genie,<BR> I couldn't agree with this post more. Next week we're coming up on our 1 year d-day anniversary. We're in worse shape now than we were then. I too think I plan A'd too long, too much, and he uses/used to his advantage. Now Plan A regarding our relationship has ended. I've had enough. Plan A is still in place regarding my daughter as well as others in my life. I have a gone to Plan B which I did do briefly in the spring when he returned to ow. This is a modified Plan B. <P>Tomorrow I start a new job, am signing divorce papers, and for the first time in a very long time, am excited to see what the Lord has in store for my future. Our pastor tells the story about a man who was visited by the police telling him to leave his home because a flood was coming. The man said, "I'm waiting on the Lord." Later the rescue squad came by in a boat and said, "Get aboard! The flood will get much worse!" and the man replied, "I'm waiting on the Lord!" Still later, a helicopter came by to get the man and his family off the roof of his home as the water had covered their home and the man said, "No thanks. I'm waiting on the Lord." When the man got to heaven he said to the Lord, "Where were you? I was waiting on You." and the Lord replied, "I was there-I sent the police, the rescue squad and the helicopter." Well, the helicopter is here and I'm getting on board.<P>My H still believes that this too will pass. He's gone from asking me last Tuesday night, "Who's more important me or you?" I thought it was a joke so I said, "You." and he said, "Right." That did it for me. Something snapped. So since then his games have started. Game 1-act mad and she'll get scared I'll leave. Game 2-act like nothing happened and she'll get over it. Game 3-go back to game 1 and take off wedding band. Game 4-ask me to take him to live at parent's home (home almost empty and for sale). Game 5-threaten suicide. Last week my attorney told me if he threatens suicide again to hand him the gun and tell him to go for it. When I told my H this he went wild. Game 5 had died to quick death. Game 4 died about a month ago when I said, "Ask daughter if she wants to ride along."<P>I believe my H would love to have ow back and still be here. She sent me a letter telling of the A and I know they both regret it. He's a cake man. He wants his family and her too. Ain't gonna happen. The problem is he now knows she's a joke and he's a joke for running with her. He's lost his "super salesman" status at work because of his behavior, he's lost his daughter, he's lost his reputation, he's lost his wife, his dirty little secrets are known in our church, and his little games don't work anymore. I think Plan A facilitated his activities. Don't get me wrong, I believe Plan A is Biblically based and healthy but to blindly apply it to all situations and recommend to people who are in emotional turmoil is dangerous. <BR>

Very interesting thread indeed...<P>Life is trial and error.<P>Hopefully, we all learn from our mistakes. Most of us probably would do things differently if we were faced with this *disaster* a second time.<P>I have a *game plan* prepared for such a *disaster*...<P>Moreover, each of us probably read PLAN A and PLAN B and come away with slightly different opinions regarding what is appropriate/inappropriate. Personally, although I'm not *perfect*, I felt as though I provided a good life, home, safe environment for my H. I was willing/have always been *open* to meeting his needs--open to change. However, because I was *certain* that H was aware of what I was capable of providing, I WAS VERY MUCH AGAINST PLAN Aing WHILE HE CONTINUED SLEEPING WITH OW.<P>I would work 4 jobs, rent out the spare bedroom, ride my bike to work, and eat nothing but bread for a solid year--if need be--BEFORE I'D EVER PLAN A MY H while he was still involved with OW, AND STILL LIVING IN OUR HOME. <B>But that's me.</B> That's based on my personal history with my H.<P>Count me in as one of the BSs that immediatly threw myself into PLAN B as well. Told H he was a free man...a BIG BOY...he could call the shots... but there was no possibility/chance that he could *keep us both*. Ultimatum???? Perhaps. But I saw it this way: H needed to make a grown up decision. I'm not sorry I did what I did. I was READY to go it alone. I WAS NOT AFRAID of losing him.<P>I also never HID my feelings from my H. I laid everything out on the table. Now, I'm not saying I necessarily lovebusted--I'm saying that I shared my pain, my disappointment, my disillusionment with him. I questioned. I asked. And, in return, I expected honest answers.<P>Every BS deserves to have their questions answered honestly. We need to *understand* what we're *fighting*. We need to examine what course of action we want to take...so we can make an informed decision.<P>Aside from the occasional hateful words that I spewed in anger--I am not sorry for any of my actions--I would choose to react in the same fashion/manor in which I acted.<P>My H's reaction to me??? First, anger. How dare I!!!! Months later he admitted that he was glad I stood up for myself--admitted that he *deserved* a good @$$ chewing--admitted that he took advantage of me... of my *person*--my trust, my belief in him, my unwaivering faith--IN HIM/IN US. But again, this is only MY STORY. MY COURSE OF ACTION WAS WHAT WAS RIGHT FOR ME.<P><B>Possibly the only thing I would change, would be the amount of time I took before I started to *live* again--I wasted so much precious time moping...feeling sorry for myself. I'll never get that time back.</B><P>My *words of wisdom* to BSs, simply this:<B><I> BE TRUE TO YOURSELF.</I></B><P>And, when you decide what that *truth* entails--act accordingly. DO THE RIGHT THING.<P>Peace, ~Marie<P>P.S. Forgot to add that once we had both made up our minds--that WE BOTH wanted our marriage--WE BEGAN MEETING EACH OTHER'S NEEDS (both PLAN A'd each other ). We both extended an out-stretched hand--we gave each other *clean slates*...we started anew. And, most importantly, <B>we continue to shape ourselves/our marriage into a better US.</B><P>------------------<BR>"If you cry because the sun has gone out of your life, your tears will prevent you from seeing the stars." ~unknown<p>[This message has been edited by ohmy_marie (edited October 23, 2000).]

Genie, My H did the same thing you did. I had an EA and my H told me that he would agree to a D if it was what I wanted, but since it wasn't what HE wanted, he wasn't budging. I think at the time I wanted him to move out and leave me because of the guilt. Just as your H said, I felt I didn't deserve the love that he had for me since I had none to give back. I couldn't trust myself to not keep hurting him. I knew where my heart was and it wasn't in the marriage.<P>Like your H, when forced to make the break myself, I couldn't do it. I was torn. I was't sure what I wnated anymore, who I was, my whole being was turned inside out. I went into counseling to sort it all out determined not to make any decisions until I was sure. My H decided to stay true to his feelings and stayed with me. I think if it was a PA, though, he probably wouldn't have stayed (he said so). And if the OM hadn't gotten scared and run away from the situation, he probably wouldn't have stayed too long.<P>It's been since March now since I've seen the OM and things are better in my marriage but I still have thoughts of the OM. I'm still not 100% in my marriage. I don't know when (or if) that day will come, but we're both still hanging in there sorting it all out.

Genie<P>I related to you posting, and am so greatful for your honesty. My H was very kind, compasionate, and so caring. But I rather think H is going through a mid life crises. The ow live in Germany, figure that one out. He has seen her three times, and as I write this is on his way back..I tried Plan A and the more I tried, the more I became his doormat. I had no dignity back..Yesterday, I got on my knees and surrendered everything to God..I am no longer in control, and I have put up boundaries. I am going into Plan B, with blind faith. But God is now in control, and my trust and faith are in Him. I am steping out of the way, so God can intervene and do His work. I am getting my dignity back, and I will tell him if he wants a divorce, which H has threatened all along, I will give it to him with a smile. Let's all watch and see if internet affairs really work

I think Marie stated my position the best, although no one knows what they would do until they are actually put to the test.<P>When I discovered, I didn't know about any of this stuff, but I basically gave him his options:<P>1. Leave<BR>2. Stay for kids<BR>3. Stay and make marriage better than before.<P>I then said I would not participate in #2, nor would I tolerate any ongoing affair or any other affair anytime in my lifetime.<P>I told him if he stayed, I'd be nice, work on forgiving him and not throw it in his face forever. I told him I thought our marriage could become even stronger.<P>Like Marie, I was a good wife, was always open to change and we got along well.<P>So I kind of tough loved him up front and when he stayed, Plan A'd.<P>I think Plan A works best or is necessary if your demeanor or the needs you are trying to meet in Plan A is markedly different than before the affair. Mine was about the same, but tweaked. Of course if you only Plan A until the spouse recommits and then go back to old patterns of behavior, then it is futile anyway. So if Plan A is not your personality and you don't want to make it your personality, it is not going to work long term.<P>Also plan A works better if you have a big stick. In other words if your spouse knows you have bounderies, and you are willing to make them stick, then Plan A does not go on and on indefinetly...<P>gotta to...this is interesting!

Genie,<P>I went through hell the past year and a half. My H first affair was a internet affair. He moved her and some of her kids clear across the country to live near us. anyway I plan A'd him all the way through it. He lived with her for 2 mos and then we reconciled. I lived with her continued problems and phone calls. I lived with H withdrawel ect. All the while being the loving supportive wife. H kept telling me just how happy he was ect until this summer when he met OW2. He now lives with her and her three kids in my house as my three kids and I are now moved out and living in a rented house. My divorce will be final anytime now. I am just waiting for the judges signature. I could not go through this again. I refused! I know my H is going through his MLC but I have three kids to think about and I can't keep putting them through this either. They need stability in their lives. <P>I agree with you in the plan A theory. I think sometimes it does just give them a reason to continue with the affair. In my H case I really think that he thought I would be understanding again and let him carry on his second affair and still welcome him home with open arms. Now that I am divorcing him I think he feels trapped in his new relationship but I can't help that. I still love him and miss him but I can't plan A or B him anymore it's over. We still have a very friendly relationship I think the kids need that but I could never be married to him again. I think he is developing a lifestyle pattern and I just don't see it changing. I think MB is great but it just won't work for everyone.<P>JIll

There are no one size fits all and no guarantees.<P>If you have a spouse who made a big mistake, but is generally of good character, I think they may respond to Plan A more positively.<P>If your spouse jerks you around in the relationship before the affair or has a character flaw or there are problems in your marriage, like drinking, that is a contributing factor in the affair, your chances of a successful Plan A without a repeat affair goes way down, I think.<P>At least from reading here for almost two years, in general, it seems that way to me.

FHL,<BR>I also wonder if, the spouse is of good character, but continues on with the mistake, as the BS does Plan A, thus making the WS feel more guilt so that the WS feels they have transgressed so grievously that they cannot come back to the marriage. Many of us have heard "I don't deserve you"--the BS being put up on that pedestal. <P>I, of course, jumped head first off the pedestal, which I had no business being on anyway...<P>Am I arguing against my previous posts on this thread? Gee wouldn't be the first time. I have vantage points from too many views. Even within my own marriage it is not one size MB fits all situations. <P>Earlier I was just trying to share what it feels like to have Plan A done to you when you aren't sure you want the marriage or can make it work. I believe Plan A works very well as a ground floor, but perhaps the WS response & what we choose to do after Plan A, and how quickly one moves to that choice is where our variety comes in?

First, will someone tell me how to put the quotes within your own posts! A lot of good stuff in this thread that I'd like to ditto, but, I'll just take a shot at it.<P>Genie, <P>I appreciate the hindsight vs. foresight. I, too, hope that someone can learn from what I have gone through. Also like the game clock analogy.<P>Some of these "nuts" are harder to crack. But more importantly, I agree the plans are not "one size fits all" The affair forces us to deal w/the marriage, the spouse and ourselves in way, perhaps, we had not done before. Some BS are willing and able to help the betrayer through, others cannot or will not. But very good points are made throughout this thread re: self-protection/preservation vs. saving the marriage. Delicate balance, indeed.<P>What is encouraging is that while we come out of it different, we are better as individuals. It even better if the spouse grows along w/us; unfortunately, that is not always the case.<P>I regret some of my behavior during "recovery" But I also know that I did the best that I knew how to do. Now I know more. Like Oprah says, "when you know better, you do better!"<P>God Bless everyone on this journey.<BR>Enlightened<P>

Hey All,<P>This is the thread that turned my whole outlook and attitude around. Granted we didn't reconcile but the wisdom and understanding changed my life!<P>Thanks "Coach".<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/010399.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/010399.html</A>

Hey Genie29,<P>When I spoke with Jennifer (Harley's) she stated that Plan A was not meant to be a long term effort. She said that some spouses can only maintain it for 3 weeks, now when she stated that she did clarify that the Part of Plan A she was referring to was where the BS is being kind and nice to the WS while the WS is openly having the A, she was not referring to the aspect of the BS working on themselves.<P>So, as you, I had Plan A'd for several months (nearly a year) with the A right in my face, during that time I felt emotionally abused and my self esteem was at an all time low, probably in the red BIG TIME. I wish I would have known at that time that Plan Aing wasn't meant for long term, I think I might have cut my effort by 4 mos. It would have saved me massive grief.<P>Love and Prayers Genie ... <P>Jo

Genie,<P>I don't think you sound bitter. I agree with you. I think your words are realistic. I believe Plan A works, but only if done for a reasonable amount of time, followed by Plan B, and if the WS is truly undecided, has strength to do what it takes to restore the marriage, and can be committed to recovery. Not all marriages are worth saving. Infidelity is a horrible wake up call to find out just what kind of person we married, what kind of people we are, and whether the marriage is worth saving. <P>If you pledge love til death, I think you ought to do something to try to keep it together, but not at the expense of losing yourself.

I did plan A for 4 months when I did not know of my h's affair. Meanwhile, he had the time of his life with 2 women trying their best to win his dear little heart. As soon as I found the evidence and confronted them, ow ran like a scalded cat. <P>I just wish I had been more assertive earlier. Perhaps the ea would've ended sooner, but I am sure that my self esteem would not have taken such a trouncing. <P>Inadvertently, I ENABLED my h to emotionally abuse me. He was incapable of withdrawing from the addiction of his fantasy affair with Pretty Woman. His continued rejection of me resulted in my being left with quite a burden of hurt and resentment.<P>I agree with your post, Genie whether or not it is considered resentful.