Peppermint:<P>It never ceases to amaze how much our lives seem to be moving in line with each other, regarding our husband's affair's. I see your second Day was August 16 and mine August 15. Also the First discovery was close as well.<P>I recently have let go of the baggage from the past, because I know that I could not move forward until I did. That must come within yourself, noone can do that for you. Even tho.... my husband is doing all he can to rebuild our marriage, I must do the same. <P>I recently went to a seminar for "WHO STOLE MY CHEESE". Even a counselor could not make me understand what was stopping me from moving on. This is a great book, it explained to me that I could not have new cheese until I let the old cheese go. It was like a light bulb came on in my head, I must not keep going over the past but start with new and continue to look to keep our marriage fresh this time. <P>We even saw the OW a few days before and it was a surprise to my husband and he even admitted that it shook him up, even tho.... the affair died naturally. The affair was almost over when I caught them together at my home, my husband was seeing things about the OW he didn't like.<P>It seems that everyone goes through stages on rebuilding the marriage. I see many positives that Firestorm is doing. I really feel that he isn't ready to talk about more details until he has done doing more work on himself. That is very selfish I know. I also believe the betrayers don't always remember things they have done or said. My husband is proof of this. <P>I knew many details about the affair, but I got the total truth from the OW when she called me, to hurt me and have me leave my husband. She also told me lies. If you are like me you need details to work through them even if they hurt, but at least you know it is the truth. <P>My husband has told me even more truth about the affair and the details ripped me apart. He then at that point decided and told me that he was no longer going to give me details. But these details involved things I don't want to hear. Most of it was what they did together and I don't want to know anymore. I know how and why they did it and that is enough. This is what I see you are after and you deserve that information. Not the personal nasty details just the facts. <P>I have learned to look at the positive side of things and I guess recently my husband and I are doing much better because I let go. He comes to me now when or he thinks something is wrong or he is upset and we talk and I do the same. We are working together now and before we weren't. <P>I truly believe you will get past this stage but at your own pace. I believe knowing more details will help you. <P>We are to a point we really don't talk about the affair anymore unless he brings it up. That is the past and I don't want the past, I just learned from it. <P>Peppermint my heart goes to you. You deserve the very best. <P>God be with you,<P>Judy<BR>

Peppermint,<P>We've ended up writing to eachother on different forums. Cool. <P>First I must say this. I think you've expressed very clearly you are <B>not</B> looking for the icky details. A few people continue to say that you are when it is clear that you are not! I see you repeatedly having to declare this and I'm getting frustrated for you! Please feel validated in your feelings and that you are understood by the majority!<P>Now to clarify on honesty: Do we "forget it and move on" or ask what we feel we need to know for recovery and prevention? We know Harley says that we are to focus on Present and Future. It helps to diminish resentment as well as those two things are basically the <I>only</I> things we <B>can</B> control. No one can change their past.<P>But the paradox here is that there is also a "Rule of Honesty". One of the four Rules that must be followed according to MB theory for intimate, successful marriages. And it just falls in line with the "Policy of Protection". Current, future as well as <B>personal history</B> honesty are listed and described in SAA. <P> But only WE know when and how much we can handle and when we have gleaned enough that is helpful and don't care about the rest.<P>So I conclude that if honesty is a need, you cannot suppress it and resentment will build if you do. But neither should anyone LB or demand to get it. How you get it is a very delicate operation. <P>The more I read the more I'd have to go with wesse's idea that fs' continued dishonesty of facts is in large part due to his own pain in dealing with his past behavior. If that is the case, Peppermint--he needs you in his corner more than ever before to show him love and encouragement to continue building on this new area that was shut down during the A.<P> It will be impossible for him to grow in this area without the right support and feedback. And it's crucial he develops this muscle because you need this from him so desperately--your trust has been destroyed by the A and his more recent untruths. Just remember his ability to be open and honest is not a muscle yet--more like very thin, fragile crystal. Handle whatever he tells you delicately or you will shatter whatever gains he makes in this area that is so vital to you. You are in effect, helping him so that he can in turn, help you.<P>I know you've made some gains this weekend. Keep that strength. I know you are so lovebusted by his using deception as a coping/defense mechanism. But he needs your help and your pride in his efforts/advances in honesty. <P>May I suggest reading up on pg. 138-151 on the Rule of Honesty? That might help you further to help fs. <P> But I think you did wonders in praying for and with him. He saw that you are there beside him, caring for him and not as someone demanding something from him. Something that he can't find the strength to fully face by himself. Let alone verbalize it to someone else...the one person he truly loves and depends upon. <P>But for your own flagging strength (I hear it with every word that you type and it's really pulling at me!) - would you refresh yourself in Managing Resentment and Restoring Trust on pg.153-160? That's a well worn and dog-eared chapter for me in dealing with my situation! <P>I loved what Sudz said about her H finally getting back his morals and integrity. I think fs is struggling with this as well. Until then, I think his level of honesty will be handicapped (oops, not pc--honesty-challenged.) <P>On page 148 is one of Harley's highlighted little ditties: "You encourage honesty when you <I>value</I> honesty."<P>I know you value it, Peppermint. So here is where you are called to task to encourage it. <P>We should never have to beg, plead or demand it from our spouse. But this is your "snag" in recovery--and we ALL got them in one form or another. But if you can nail this one down--wow, you guys will really start to move in recovery! <P>Ok. Shutting up now. <P>Love and prayers,<P>Leilana<P>P.S. Since you said fs doesn't visit the forum lately, I interpreted that to mean a posted thread to him wasn't necessary. But it would sure be nice if he could work out his feelings on the forum and get even more encouraging feedback. <BR> Ok, going back to In Recovery now! <p>[This message has been edited by Leilana (edited November 05, 2000).]

Meg,<P>I agree with your comment that the lies actually have hurt more than the affair did. After all, the lies have lasted MUCH longer that that meaningless relationship. I'm so very sorry that your efforts to save your marriage have not been rewarded.<P>You said that a marriage could not really be saved without honesty, and I believe that is true. Maybe that's why I am so desperate to end the lies once and for all.<P>Thanks again.<P>Reba,<P>Thanks for your response.<P>Schizzo,<P>Your comment about starting to be honest beginning with the past makes such good sense to me. I don't want to hear things that make me miserable, but would rather hear unpleasant truths that reassuring lies. Thanks for your support, and it's very encouraging to read about your progress.<P>Judy,<P>Are we living in alternate universes? It sure seems like it sometimes. I'm glad you have received the closure on the past that you need. That's what I'm trying to find too.<P>In addition to that, I really don't want there to be any secrets that firestorm and the other woman share. We all know that shared secrets create a kind of bond, and I really want everything that might bind them together to be severed. Thanks for your care and concern. I'm glad to hear that you are doing so well.<P>Leilana,<P>You feel like a kindred spirit to me oftentimes. I was starting to feel a little misunderstood. Thanks for the support and great advice.<P>I know that firestorm is suffering greatly with his own internal struggles. I'm sure that adding to that the pressure of having to duck flying objects (unfortunately I am not exaggerating about that) doesn't help him want to be open and honest. I have made up my mind that I am going to follow your excellent example. From the tone of your recent posts I assume that everything is progressing well with you and your husband. I'm glad to see that.<P>Interesting that you spend most of your time on the recovery board. Is it my imagination or is there very little real recovery going on over there? I find it a little discouraging on the forum lately, but I guess I have been adding to that too. I hope to have some more positive feelings to share soon. By the way, firestorm still reads here quite often, he just doesn't post any lately. A note of support from you would be most welcome, I assure you. I also plan to remind him to share with you the no contact letter that he wrote (all on his own).<P>Thanks again,<P>Peppermint

Paramount - that's how important it is to me.<P>I think I now have the most of the truth of what when on - it has taken a very, very long time - has been very tough to get it out of him.<P>Why did I have to have the truth & keep digging until I got the majority of it?<P>What I was told originally was that for 7 months he had had a secret friendship with this couple that made him feel good - and the simple reason I didn't know them or anything about them is that I wouldn't like them.<P>What he did was have an EA, PA, believed he was in love with her and was considering leaving me. <P>I had to chip and chip and chip away. As long as he was even involved with her a little bit - he was going to continue to lie to me.<P>I have a theory - I posted about it a long time ago. I call it the "Force of the Affair". As long as he was even remotely involved with her - I mean even a tiny bit - he had absolultely no choice but to lie to me. An affair is lies and deceits - simple - the "force of the affair" does that. As long as he had any contact with her - he was in a fog - and even though he was starting to work through the layers of lies - the "force of the affair" would not allow him to come clean.<P>Truth vs Details. I have both. I asked and received many of the sordid details. They are painful - but I'm not imagining a whole bunch - I pretty well know it.<P>I think the truth pretty well gives you the details. OK, he had an EA and told the OW he loved her. Well we know what we do with a member of the opposite sex we are in love with. Had a hard time getting the PA truth out. Unfortunately, I was getting blisters in a spot there should be no blisters - for the first time in my 48 years. That blew open the PA. However, as I knew they were "in love" - I really thought my intelligence was being degraded by his denying.<P>I needed the truth - BUT he needed it too. He had lied and justified so much that he wasn't facing it head on. It really killed him to change his story as we worked through this - I think a lot of it he HATED to admit to himself. Not only was he lying to me BUT HE WAS LYING to himself about how "bad" or "intense" it was.<P>WE both need the truth. We need to know and understand everything about it as best we can -- and we need to be able to stand together about the whole mess. United we stand -- divided we fall.<P>This was not just his A - this was a major life altering event to me, him and our marriage. We will neither one be able to go back to being "who" we were - we are now new people carrying a big load around for the rest of our lives. As this was such a major part of MY life - I deserve the truth.<P>I sure hope I have it now - and won't have any major surprises. For a while, it was one tiny shred of truth - then, bingo - the lid was blown off of that and more sh** would hit the fan.<P>This is so darn tough - who knows what the "right" answer is!!<P>Sudz (the Truth Crusader)

Leilana<P>Yes, you can demand honesty. My H doesn't read minds, so now he knows that I demand it and expect it. It got my point across to him. (ie: NO MORE LIES) His response to me was, I have to be honest with you or I know that I am not going to be happy and our marriage won't work based on deceipt.<P>I am well aware that peppermint, doesn't want the "icky" details. Why would anyone want to know that? The more the BS brings up the affair will probably make the betrayer think more about ow. What exactly is to be gained. I am not saying forget the affair, BUT learn from it and don't dwell on it. It's not good for recovery.

Dearest Peppermint:<P>I remember a while back, I had posted something on this subject--about how I will never know the "real" truth and how I learned to "let go" of needing to know. I remember you asking how I was able to forgive when I didn't *know* what I was forgiving (???). I don't believe I answered you back then...not sure why. Guess because it's so darn hard to answer. But, after pondering it into the wee hours of the morning, I thought I'd give it a *wing*...<P>I'm, honestly, not sure how I did it--other than to say to myself, "I sincerely don't give a [censored] anymore...I'm NOT PUTTING MY LIFE ON HOLD ANY LONGER".<P>I guess I realized I can't help my H figure himself out--that's his job. He's NOT incapable of digging deep within himself to find the truth...he just chooses not to dig. Why bother when he's going to find something he doesn't like???--this is his *self-talk*, NOT MINE. My H feels as though it won't BENEFIT HIM, so why should it be important to me (???). He's too narrow minded to see that the TRUTH would benefit us all.<P>My situation is slightly different from yours in that the OW and her H shared MANY, MANY sordid details with me regarding what she and my H did together. My H was being tight-lipped and NOT sharing any details. As the *story* unfolded, H "changed" his story in an attempt to "soften the blow"...so he says.<P>So my H was lying to OW, he was lying to me, he was lying to OWH--I HAD NO ONE TO BELIEVE--and I had OWH telling me what a lying piece of #$%! my H was--DUH! And I pleaded and begged my H to please tell me the truth so I wouldn't have to hear it in bits and pieces from OWH....UGH.<P>What can I say??? My H was a coward.<P>Funny, really. He mentioned to me how the A made him feel POWERFUL...ENERGIZED...like SUPERMAN (yes, he said Superman!). Well, he really couldn't fly...hot air apparently doesn't keep you afloat forever. Seems he was "just a man" afterall. He fell...and fell hard.<P>I'm alot like you, Peppermint. I mean, what's the big deal ???. Just fess up and be done with it. <B>THE BIG DEAL IS THAT IT TAKES COURAGE...IT TAKES SELF-REFLECTION.</B> Seems as tho some spouses just aren't ready to face themselves. BUT, DON'T ALLOW YOUR H TO USE YOU AS AN EXCUSE FOR NOT COMING CLEAN. IT'S WHAT HE LACKS, that's REALLY stalling him. <P>So what if you cry. So what if you throw things. So what if you yell. So what if you pack up and leave. So what if he packs up an leaves. So what if you hate him even more than before.<P>THIS IS NOT AN EXCUSE TO WITHHOLD THE TRUTH. TRUE, it may cause FS to be hesitant to share, but come on, He's a MAN...<P>He had the balls to *go after* another man's wife, he should have the balls to make peace with his own wife. And, yes! this is my own personal opinion. And, yes!, it pertains to my own H as well. But no matter how I feel, think, or behave, <B>MY H HAS TO CHOOSE TO BE A BETTER MAN</B>--I can't do that for him.<P>I DID MOVE ON. I FINALLY MADE THE DECISION TO LIVE MY LIFE. OF COURSE, I HAVE THE LATEST, most recent version of the *TRUTH*...for what it's worth. BUT I HAVE NO FAITH IN THAT TRUTH. IT'S MEANINGLESS. <P>For a long, long time...that feeling--of not *knowing* what was *real*--was what kept me trapped. I guess it was realizing that even if my H were telling the truth, that even if he spilled his heart and soul out to me, it would never quite BE ENOUGH...so, <B>WHY ALLOW IT TO CRIPPLE ME?<P>I KNOW MY TRUTH. I KNOW MYSELF. I CAN BE HAPPY WITH ME and I CAN CHOOSE TO BE HAPPY WITH THE MAN I'M MARRIED TO.</B><P>YOU CAN BE HAPPY WITH YOUR *TRUTH* PEPPERMINT. YOU CAN MOVE PAST THE LIES, THE DECEIT, THE TORMENT.<P>You can be true to yourself. You can choose to *let go* and live your life to make you and your children's lives happier, fuller. <B>You can choose to forgive the *unknown*....not because you are weak and let FS *off the hook*...BUT BECAUSE YOU ARE STRONG. STRONG enough NOT to allow your H's inadequacies to TRAP you in your own feelings of sorrow.</B><P>Strong enough to say, "I'm true to myself. I'm proud of who I am. I value honesty. I value integrity. I value morals. I value everything that I AM...and I WILL ACCEPT NOTHING LESS...YET, I will NOT STOP LIVING MY LIFE, following my dreams, pursuing to better myself, JUST BECAUSE OTHER's HAVE FAILED ME/THEMSELVES!"<P><B>He failed you, he failed himself. Just as my H failed me, and failed himself. You can choose to forgive ALL--all his faults, his weaknesses, his hurtful behavior. You CAN choose to offer him up a clean slate and put your trust in GOD. You CAN CHOOSE PEACE FOR YOURSELF, Peppermint.</B><P>I believe this will all my HEART and SOUL. It's MY TRUTH...and I'm living it. <P>Peace, ~Marie <P>------------------<BR>"If you cry because the sun has gone out of your life, your tears will prevent you from seeing the stars." ~unknown<p>[This message has been edited by ohmy_marie (edited November 06, 2000).]

oh pepppermint <P>you are my strength when i am falling... i am sorry to hear things are spinning. Although, i find that spinning wheels is a place that we all end up being at one time or another. My pastor(of our new church, in our new hometown) agreed to counsel us, him and his wife. What we found out is that they too have been through this hellish road of adultery. It has been 7 yrs for them and they have been married 15. He just came home one day to tellher he had been unfaithful their WHOLE marriage. <P>Anyway, my point there is even after 7 years and with the help of healing with God, they still struggle. She says that he)pastor, never gives her the slightest notion that he could be doing such a thing, but that when he is a lttle bit late, if he doesn't call, the old feelings arise. IT HAS BEEN 7 YEARS. I know Peppermint, this is not what you wanted to hear, but, they both say that they are very close and they obviously love each other. But, they say you never GET OVER the affair, it is now part of your marriage. His wife says it is somewhat like a death in the family, that it is still painful. I cannot fathom that idea, because it has been 15 yr since my dad died and i could talk about it without crying 3-4 yrs after he died. it wasn't painful, just sorrowful.<P>let me go back a little. <P>OM and I started an affair in August of 1997. it lasted until March/April of 1998. Yes there was sex. NO i didn't tell my husband that part for... ummmmm.....1 yr. I finally told him in June of 1999. I carried a Torch for om that long. Also, we had had a LOT of sexual contact and i had never been totaly honest with my husband about that. I couldn't. I felt awful. But, yet, i couldn't "wait" to get back with OM, which i felt would happen again.<P>So dec of 1999 rolls around, things between OM and I resume, exactly where they were at. and NO i was not honest again. and we had contact until May of 2000. <P>I did A LOT of lying to my husband. Too much, actually so much that i was a master of deception. Or so i thot. <BR>i know that it is very important to my husband all the details, which ofcourse i am NOT comfortable about answering too, such as, was he a better lover, what actually went on ect ect. DEtails. <P>I think as the betrayer, it takes time for us to be able to come to terms wtih feelings. And honestly, as the "fantasy" wears off, i know i have found myself having to re-examine and re-examine myself and the situation. It is like an onion, having to peel layer bylayer of lies and regret and emotions off and as a new skin is revealed, you find you have more soul searching to do in order to be able to live with yourself, the deed you have done, the pain you have caused and the very real realization that you are not able to really meet hardly any emotional needs because you yourself is still so raw from your side of things. Does that make sense?<P>i am not sure we are in recovery either. As a matter of fact, i can say that we are closer to divorce court rather than recovery. <P>the scariest part of all is, he isn't meeting any of my emotional needs, as a matter of fact, his abuse has started again. Sorry to go off on a tangent. <P>love ya peppermint,<BR>god bless,<BR>mercy<P>

<B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But, they say you never GET OVER the affair, it is now part of your marriage.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Whoa! OH MY! NEVER SAY NEVER!<P><B>See, this type of thinking "boxes you in".</B><P>YOU CAN GET OVER THE AFFAIR. YOU CAN CHOOSE TO LET IT GO. IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BECOME PART OF YOUR MARRIAGE....In fact, <B>IT WASN'T PART OF MY MARRIAGE.</B><P>This "thing" happened OUTSIDE of MY MARRIAGE.<P>It's all in PERSPECTIVE. <B> Put it in proper perspective. </B> Don't let it CRIPPLE what you can ACHIEVE.<P>DON'T LET OTHER'S FAULTY THINKING TRAP YOU.<P>If you can see it, you can be it.<P>Peace, ~Marie<BR>--------------<BR>"Never give up. Never, never give up. Never, never, never give up." ~Winston Churchill<p>[This message has been edited by ohmy_marie (edited November 06, 2000).]

Peppermint,<BR>It is hard to follow Marie.<P>Now on one hand, my H's sordid affairette didn't have as much truth to tell. And because fortunately he had his affair with someone in another town, not here, and with a stranger, not anyone I or anyone that I know has any interaction with, our situations are not the same.<P>But I do have more historical perspective than you do because I am knocking on the 2 year door.<P>It still bugs me that I don't know the whole raw unedited focused truth, and I am not talking details. But it depends what day you ask me. Somedays I would still like to know and some days, I'm OK with it. Today I would say I am smack on the middle of the teeter-totter and maybe this is why this thread spoke to me.<P>I had a "bad" week. Last weekend was great and I started last week out really happy and secure and normal. Actually things were great until Wed. night when I had a Bible Study and although the subject was Burden Bearing, not infidelity, almost every example that we studied, including King David, had something to do with infidelity. In the small group setting that I know these 20 or so people gathered in a circle (they don't know about affair), I could feel myself sinking to that pit, I know you must know that feeling, and I had to carefully moniter my facial expressions and tonal quality. I felt terrible because of the subject matter and because it made me feel phoney. <P>Then my H came home two hours late Friday after work. The company annouced good news and a bunch decided to celebrate. He tried to call to tell me, but daughter was on the phone A LOT after school. He finally called me from his friends house on the way home. But for about an hour I felt "the fear" when time is not accounted for. I didn't think he was doing anything inappropriate, and I honestly believe he wasn't, but "the fear" can override rational thought. We talked this out and if he can't get to me by phone to talk over the situation in advance, he may E-mail me, because if he is late, I would check it. If he doesn't/can't use E-mail and he is an hour post regular time, then he will start home immediately. We actually did well POJA this.<P>Then this weekend a friend of mine that I was shopping with mentioned how she never had to worry about her H and how she didn't know how women could deal with that (she doesn't know). I think I "admired" something in the store fast enough that she didn't realize I didn't respond. But it felt terrible. I wanted to tell her to be watchful, no marriage is immune, but I couldn't.<P>Anyway, this is getting long, but these three things really had me down and I spent yesterday wanting to know and wondering about some things that still don't quite hang together. Fears and insecurities and mistrust started to flood in.<P>Then I had a nice romantic interlude with H last night. Funny how this morning, I don't feel that "need to know" feeling once again.<P>My point? <P>I truly believe it would have been better for me personally to have known the full truth. I honestly don't think my H has hidden anything terrible or significant. Interestingly enough, the one thing he was open and consistant about, sex...and how it hadn't gotten sexual yet...is the only thing that hasn't changed and soemthing I have come to believe. If he had been as open about everything, even painful things, I think I could have processed and healed much more quickly. <P>Plus I think that maybe there wouldn't be than expandable barrier between us, that only I experience, if he had been willing to talk things through. So we both lose a little with his ambiguity, even today.<P>Can you recover without the full truth...we have. But I speculate that the whole truth would have made healing faster and more complete.<P><BR>

Hey Marie,<P>Good to see you are your usual positive uplifting self!! THANK YOU. Everything you said makes absolute sense, and I am really going to try to follow your example.<P>I do honestly believe that firestorm is so horribly ashamed of all that happened. He tells me that as he looks back it was like watching someone else do these awful things, and that he feels like he has awakened from a nightmare. Unfortunately it is real.<P>I also like your timeframe examination. In our case the whole entire time of the infidelity was 1.5 years from beginning to end, with a period of no-contact in the middle. That is not much out of 24 years, I guess.<P>But what about the fact that this WILL affect the rest of our lives together? Do you really think that it will not? I guess I am grieving for the loss of trust and faithfulness. Perhaps someday I will have trust again, but I will never have a faithful marriage with the man I love. I will always have to admit that the man I married did something I had believed with all my heart he was incapable of. I will never think of him in that same trusting way again.<P>I doubt that any betrayer has ever been more remorseful, apologetic, or ashamed than firestorm is. I doubt that any betrayed spouse has ever been begged for forgiveness, prayed for, or loved more than I am. BUT NONE OF THAT REMOVES THIS HORRIBLE PAIN. None of it replaces the loss of trust, security, and happiness. I know that much of that has to come from within me, and that it can return in time, but there are absolutely no sure things in this situation.<P>The fact is this: I did totally forgive him and believe him the first time. I listened to all the excuses, lies, and promises. I gave him another chance. He took advantage of it and of me.<P>Is he a different person this time? Absolutely. But I am also a different person this time, and I really don't like some of the differences. This whole experience has changed me, not all for the better.<P>I guess the best I can hope for is that our marrige will forever be recovering, just like an alcoholic can be eternally recovering but never completely cured. I suppose I have never been very good at settling for less, but I am going to try my best to do that.<P>Thanks for you kind encouragement. I hope that your relationship continues to be your main source of happiness and contentment. My marriage was that for me, and I hope it will be again.<P>Peppermint

Peppermint, sorry my reply was so *abrupt* yesterday. Sundays are nuts around here.<P>FHL - Marie is a tough act to follow or it's hard to follow what she's saying? Just wondered.<P>I totally agree that it is all a matter of perception. For me, this has been a very hard pill to swallow because I've always been a black and white thinker. There is still self-talk that goes on some days - he's nothing but a lying, cheating, selfish man, who are you kidding?<P>But people CAN change and I have seen him change. I will never blindly trust again, but who said that is a healthy way to live anyway?<P>I am a stronger, more together woman now. As Marie so eloquently said, I can choose to move on with MY life.<P>But (there is always a but) I'm finding it is only through real honesty that we can build an incredible relationship. One I don't think I could have with another man, even though I sometimes would like to start over with one who has not cheated on me.<P>In our case, this new ability to really talk to each other openly has been wonderful for both of us because we have noone else. Neither of us have that with parents, siblings, etc.<P>Peppermint, what the heck am I trying to say? I'm tired...<P>They are BOTH true. You can choose to move on with or without honesty. However, I would love you to experience what I have been for the past few weeks. He is now there for me in my pain, after he finally crossed the threshold into a real commitment.<P>Harley's male needs seemed so shallow to me. Sex, good looks, clean house. Yeah, those were his top three. But he has tasted real intimacy and he likes it!<P>You have every right to be angry, throw things, etc. But if you look clearly at what you want to get out of this, you will heal more quickly if you try to hear him as his friend. Doesn't mean the info won't upset you, but the focus is different. You detach and are there as friend/counsellor and try to really hear him. It was painful, but it worked wonders for me.

After reading all the replies I started asking myself now is there a difference between truth and honesty? I think so at this point. I don't need to know the details of the A (the truth), I have figured that out myself piece by piece. It is what it is. But the honesty issue is a BIGGIE! And again I don't want or need to know what/how/when they did things. I need my H to be honest with me NOW when I ask him questions...is she still in contact with you?...does OW know why you moved your office?...he gave me answers but unfortunately they contradict everything that he told me previously. He is not dealing with the situation and still says that he would not have had an A if I had 'known who I was and if I had not had problems'!Well...thought we were over that one some time ago. <P>I need to know how he is feeling, what his view of our relationship is and if there are things we need to do different, things we need to share and discuss and work out between the two of us. His answer...people are the way they are and you just deal with it. He puts no trust or belief in people so that way he is free. No that way is a major cop out and a way of not dealing with anything. Oh yes he is a MAJOR conflict avoider...as are his parents. And his avoidance is driving a wedge between the two of us...let alone the fact that he has NOT told the OW it is over (another lie) so she can move on with her marriage and work it out or get out.<P>I feel that his dishonesty is tearing us apart. And the one that is being hurt most is himself. Why is it easier to lie and be miserable than it is to be honest? I just don't understand that idea.<P>So, my response, yes it is necessary for the honesty to be there for recovery to take place. Without it you can't even begin to trust or believe in the OP again and that is the very basis for a healthy,loving relationship.

Hello Sudz,<P>Your search for the truth was much like mine is- a sliver of truth here, a chunk of truth there. It is so frustrating, I just want it to be over.<P>My husband would tell one version and I would try to accept it and move forward. Then he would reveal a little bit more, and I would have to begin again. This has happened over and over. It started with the whole "just friends" crap and finally progressed to the latest admission of illicit meetings (when I thought he was at work) with sex. I don't think it can get much worse. It has taken three months to get to this point, with many painful lies and versions of the truth during that time.<P>Of course, reading on this site does show that many, if not most, betrayers do the same thing by continuing to lie and hide the truth. I guess my point is that I have a hard time believing that he can continue to lie about the facts of the affair, but be truthful in his pledges that it is over, he has no more contact with her, he will never do this again, blah, blah, blah. To me, either you are honest or you are not, no shades of gray there.<P>Anyway, I really appreciate your response. You brought up many good points that I am going to reread and really think about. I guess it's true that from adversity comes wisdom.<P>Thanks again,<P><BR>Mercy,<P>I really hate to hear you sound so discouraged. I wish I could do something to help, give some advice to make you feel better. I know that betrayers feel a whole level of pain and regret that I cannot understand, any that you would change everything in a minute if you could.<P>Isn't it interesting that infidelity spares no one, not even a minister and his wife. When they counsel you, they REALLY understand. I'm sure that is helpful. I really do agree that we will never completely be able to put this out of our lives. Maybe that is one reason I am feelings so overwhelmed lately.<P>I am NOT giving up, and I don't want you to either. Marriage is worth it, and I truly want to honor the vows I took and the committment I made. I guess I am just having a real hard time forgiving, though I am praying for it constantly.<P>Poor firestorm is only asking for a chance to make it better with no expectations on his part. I know that the difficulty I am having is within myself, and the power to heal is also within myself.<P>Thanks for taking the time to answer me. I am really glad to see you back here. Please stay!<P>Peppermint

FHL,<P>Thank you so much for the response. I am beginning to think that much of the problem is MY impatience. I want so desperately to get better that I am focusing on the thought that firestorm's continued lack of honesty is the reason for my continued suffering. Your post helped me to put that into perspective. You have been a continued source of wisdom for me and everyone on this board. I am so glad that you still visit here and share that. THANKS!<P>Schizzo,<P>You are a very introspective person, and I'll bet you have a very analytical mind. I have to admit that I sometimes look at firestorm and think the same things you mentioned. Maybe I need to concentrate on his positive qualities for a while. Thanks.<P>Victoria,<P>EUREKA! You made me realize that what I am looking for is not the whole, unvarnished truth about the affair, but proof that firestorm is being honest. THAT IS an entirely different thing, and I've been going about finding the wrong thing. No wonder the results have been so poor. THANK YOU FOR THE MOMENT OF CLARITY.<P>Thanks to all of you. I'm sorry we're all in the same boat, but at least there are a lot of very wise people to spend time with on this journey!<P>Peppermint

FHL & whomever else deals with no one knowing--I almost have difficulty imagining how tough it must be to keep it a secret. Guard's affair is fairly well known among our acquaintances, for a few reasons: <P>1) When a couple separates, the majority of people assume one of the people has someone else. I didn't really know this until it happened to me.<P>2) He was seen with her a lot. My best friend's mom, my prayer partner both saw them as well as plenty of people they both work with. Although the work people think they got together after the separations started, not several months before. Some think she is a *victim* .<P>3) After he'd left me the third time, I didn't do much to protect his reputation. When I was asked if he was seeing someone else, I'd shrug and say, He says he's not. Sometimes I said it lightly and like I believed it, sometimes I began crying, sometimes I said it in a tone that was downright knowingly nasty. It all depended on the person asking and my mood.<P>4) My prayer partner gossiped about some of the things I told her--then of course, she had seen it with her own eyes.<P>And I'm pretty brutal (oh, now ya hardly can believe that? ) when people say their spouse will never cheat. I never thought Guard would, he told me many times he wouldn't do that to me because he knew how terrible it felt. So, I say, at best, if you don't want your spouse to cheat, you better make sure you are meeting his needs and he's not repeatedly in situations that make it easy--bars, conventions, traveling, co-worker coffees.<P>And you know what people say back? Well, he wouldn't have time. (uh huh, it really doesn't take a lot of time that the spouse notices right away). Or, he never does anything nice for me, why should I bend over backwards for him? (double uh oh). The wise ones say, "I'm afraid that if it happened in your marriage, it will happen to me, what are the kinds of things that will help keep that from happening?" Then I can quote MB and say to reconnect, reconnect, reconnect & take some time alone without the kids.<P>One of my sweetest, most Christian friends, when she found out through reason #4, came to me and told me she had begun having phone conversations & rides into the country with a male friend. Because of her own convictions and what I told her, she stopped before it became anything more, but she has repeatedly said since then, if she hadn't talked to me, she thinks they would have broken up one or both of their families. She had already begun wondering if she had ever loved her H...and now, deep in her heart she knows he's the best thing that ever happened to her.<P>I guess that's the benefit of having lived through this with so many people knowing. I can minister without feeling like I'm breaking Guard's trust. But I have started to be sure that what I say about him now to people in my daily life, is loyal, something I did fall away from after so many separations. <P>The truth of the betrayed's situation is that the wayward spouse puts them in a position where, if the betrayed wants to keep the affair a secret, they become secretive, if not dishonest. And sometimes, the betrayed doesn't get the choice to keep it a secret and has to handle the pain with people watching. That said, I also have to say that most people, though they may have a temporary prurient interest, are more concerned with their own selves & their problems.<P>I guess that was off on a tangent.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."<BR>(Proverbs 15:1).

Shades of grey...boy you hit that one on the head! Pre-A my H was the most honest, open, black-and-white human being that I knew. You were either honest or dishonest and dishonesty was one thing that he would not stand for on any terms. How things can change. He is now the 'greyest' person I know. Dishonesty has become his best friend. Funny how the 'rules' changed when he decided to break them.<P>But at least if he is not being honest, I can pride myself on it. I told him I had nothing to hide and that I truly WAS/AM free because that openness has brought such a sense of peace to my soul. That which he says he has found, he hasn't even begun to touch. Only through that honesty can you begin to be yourself and appreciate others for who they are.<P>Don't stop searching, by your example maybe you can inspire it in your H too.<P>Good luck!

BUT PEPPERMINT I DON' WANNA STAY I WANNA HEAL AND GO ON <P>But i am here. and that says too much. Sorry to cry on your thread. :<P>from the stuff i have seen firestorm write and the things he has posted back to me, i think you both are on a really good track. Remember you told me once there are just bumps in the road? sounds like you are at the foot of one and it may be up to you how big this hump needs to be. (easier said than done, I know)<P>i am here.....to stay.... at least for a while.<P>mercy

To all here including my wonderful wife Peppermint;<P>I just wanted you guys to know that I do read here everyday. I havn't posted lately because I really have not had much to say. I have done a lot of soul searching over the past couple of weeks and honestly taking a serious look at myself. I went back to my home town to attend church yesterday. Sometimes you just have to go home to find your roots and see the begining to find the end. I looked around the house that I grew up in. I looked into my old bedroom, the den, the kitchen, every part of the house that was a part of me. Everything in the house reminded me of the weekend I met Peppermint. It also reminded me again that she is the only woman that I have ever loved.<P>I have had an affair, physical and emotional, with a woman who is not worth the hole it would take to burry her. She is not worth even walking the same path of life that my W would take. Everything that could be considered necessary for an affiar, I did. We talked almost everyday, e-mailed almost everyday, snuck off and met in numerous places, and had sex together. These things are hard for me to say and even harder for peppermint to read. I told her that I loved her when I really didn't. I told her things that were not true to get her closer to me. She was looking for an exit to her marriage, I was looking for something to make me feel better. I used her but she used my also. I lied to Peppermint when she asked me if I had contact with her, I lied about the extent of the affair. I lied about the sex.<P>Where do I stand now? I hate myself, but I know I can be better than that. I am so ashamed of what I did that I cannot even to begin to express that feeling. I am so forever sorry for what I have to done to my beautiful Wife. But, one thing is for sure; I will never do this again and today I can HONESTLY say that. And today I can say that I have found that I love my wife more than anything in the world. I could write here from now until the end of eternity and I can never appologize enough for my actions. As I take a step forward today, I know I must put 120% of my effort into the rebuilding of our marriage. I also must repair my inner self and to be the person that I should be. God will lead me in that direction, and by his word I will rebuild my life. If I am not honest with myself, how can I be honest with anyone. I screwed up! It was my choice, my decision, and 100% MY FAULT. I had the greatest wife in the world, I hope one day I can have that back. In return to her, I hope to give her the best husband in the world, from this day forward.<P>Many thanks to all who have posted here. Keep us in your prayers and I will keep all of you in mine. May we all rebuild.....fs<p>[This message has been edited by firestorm (edited November 06, 2000).]

FS--now you can help me. How long did it take you to get to this point? And what did it take for you to get here? My H is still in the 'it was all your fault' mode and has continued the lies, although I think it is the case of 'if I think it is over then OW will think so too and leave me alone and I won't have to talk to W about it anymore'. She is pursuing him and he is miserable.<P> What to do when a H you love dearly is in this state? Having been there, maybe you are the one I should be talking to about what H is going through as it seems that I have started the journey to recovery and he hasn't even gotten to the starting line yet.<P>I hope and pray that you are being HONEST. That in itself is a huge step. And thank you for your honesty here. I am trying very hard to see what my H is going through, but at times I just want to wring his neck and tell him to get over it. I cannot live his misery.

Peppermint---this thread really hits a spot with me right now. This is one thing that I am having an incredibly hard time with. Honesty is something that is of ultimate importance to me right now. I just can't seem to get that through to my H. If he would answer my questions honestly, the first time I ask them, then I wouldn't have to "nag" about them for days. <P>Funny thing is, H just filled out EN questionnaire (I posted another thread about that), and in it said that he has moderate need for honesty, and that I rate a -1 on filling that need for him. I find that a bit ironic considering that he tells the truth about very little. Oh, but lying by ommission is ok for him, just not for anyone else!!<P>Until he is completely honest with me all of the time, I feel like I am stuck between discovery and recovery. We are definately not in recovery yet, and I just don't know how much longer I can stand being in limbo. <P>Firestorm says so many beautiful things to you on this forum, I just hope and pray that you two will move into recovery very soon.<P>Best Wishes to the both of you!!!