I don't belong on the divorced/divorcing board because the vast majority of the posters are in the "I'm better off without him/her" mode, and reading those posts just makes me upset. I don't belong here, because most of the posters are either relatively new, or they are at least attempting reconciliation. I got to admit that I also get upset when I read of posters who are having a hard time forgiving even though the WS is remorseful. <P>I would give so much for just an ounce of remorse. Or even if he would stop blaming me for virtually everything. Even the fact that our little one has a hard time going to sleep when she stays with him is supposed to be my fault - it doesn't have anything to do with the fact that she is only 4, she is not at home, she sleeps on a pile of blankets on the floor, although she loves her father she doesn't really know him that well, since he spends hardly anytime with her. As far as I know he is still convinced, or pretending to be, that his leaving had nothing to do with the OW, that if we had faced our unspecified problems long ago we would have divorced earlier, that what he is doing is perfectly ok, that it is not his fault that he won't let the kids spend more time with him, because they supposedly bicker too much. He "can't" go to their school conferences, he "can't" see them more - everything is supposedly out of his control. The OW tells him what to do and say, even while he is on the phone with me, and he just accepts it. I know he is depressed, I know that the fact that he hasn't been able to find a job in a booming economy is damaging to his self-esteem. Nothing has changed about the "fog" in a year and a half, except that he sees less and less of his kids. <P>I know his self-esteem is low, but as a practical matter, he is doing just fine. He is a bit strapped for money, but it is not he who is wondering how long to hold out before going to the food bank. It is not he who has to tell the kids we can't afford whatever - not that they usually even bother asking anymore. He doesn't have to worry about having a roof over his head. He will never have to pay more child support than he can reasonably afford - and it makes no difference that I can't feed and house the kids on that plus my income. <P>I think it was Terri who said in another post that most BS would rather have cut their arm off than gone through the betrayal. There is almost nothing I can imagine worse than this. First there is the complete emotional destruction, and then if that isn't enough, it is followed by the complete financial destruction. <P><BR>

Nellie,<BR>You know, I just want to hug you. Your post really touched my heart. You are in such a tough position and you've been so constant with your wish that your marriage would be restored through all of your turmoil. I know we're both long-termers, yet we haven't posted much to each other because our situations don't have a lot in common...and I don't know if my circumstances were like yours what I would have done.<P>I don't want you to go off on a forum all by yourself. I really think you do add a special & unique voice to the board. I know what it feels like when sometimes there isn't a current poster who is in or has been in a similar or cumulative circumstance, or no one would choose the path you have, or knows, other than a hug, what to to say. And I've had times when I didn't know what to say to anyone because it seemed like nothing I had tried had worked.<P>I don't know if any of us are playing with a full deck. Hmm, that doesn't sound right , but what I mean is we've all been dealt some cards--and all of us have one in the infidelity suit--but there are all those numbers--EA, PA, OC, affair resumption, separation, abandonment, one night stand(s), living with the OP, short affairs, long affairs, multiple affairs, the betrayed finding an OP, financial issues, custody, visitation, divorce. The combinations are endless and some of us got a lot of time at the draw pile, like we were playing Crazy 8s.<P>Another thing I really see from being at MB for almost 2 years is that needs do change. <P>In your post you yearn for your H's remorse. Anybody in your position would. <P>I find as my H & I move farther & farther into this actual recovery that our top needs change, and change again as the next to the top needs are met. I didn't expect this sort of shifting. <P>If your H showed remorse, you'd have other needs that would take that current needs place. Unfortunately sometimes--for a time--that need is *more* remorse, as you note in your post. <P>Healing takes as many cards as we were dealt in the first place, sort of like winning the card game War. The more things you have to resent, the more offenses against you, the greater the resentment that you have to process (paraphrase of Dr. Harley in Q & A). Your H hasn't done with hurting you. <P>I found some healing took place while the hurting continued, but the scars were pretty fierce, and I think there's shrapnel in some of them. Now I'm healing smoothly, but it is much more slowly than I expected. I have days where I feel like I'm convalescing from a long illness, yet from your perspective--you would love to be dealing with the issues I'm currently dealing with in restoring my marriage. I understand that. I saw posts when my H was leaving me for the muliplth time and I could not relate to someone who had a remorseful, first offense spouse and the BS didn't know if they wanted the WS, no matter how sorry. I made at least one unfortunate post to someone that she should be grateful her H was showing remorse & a willingness to work on the marriage...and she left the board at least in part because of my berrating her. <P>Ouch, I know that wasn't what I intended. I learned to stay away from certain kinds of posts because I'm not helpful in those areas, other times, I'm helpful, but perhaps not gentle. Some of the harshest posts directed to me personally have been the ones I *needed* to kick my brain into a better gear. It's pretty humble-making & thought provoking to post something and find all the responses disagree with you . It hasn't happened to me often, but it has happened--and sometimes, I still think I'm right , but at least I consider the other opinions.<P>Lately I'm yappy, long-winded because I'm trying to work out something elusive (unidentified schrapnel), and rather than drive my H crazy, I'm spending more time here--just as I had made up my mind to cut back . Anyway, Nellie, you aren't the only one who has felt like they don't necessarily fit in.<P>You are a valuable poster and I think the board benefits from your thoughts & the experiences you share.<P>Lor<BR>------<BR>"In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there is within me an invincible summer." --Albert Camus

Hi Nellie:<P>I'm kinda like you...it has been a long time and the hurts have been plenty and they continue...don't ever seem to stop.<P>Remorse...no, there's no remorse when you think you're right...And all the actions they can justify under the guise of "doing what's right for them" ...no matter what the cost is to marriage and family.<P>Until you can face the fact that this is their problems and you are just caught in the middle...they can use you to justify their behavior...the marriage was bad all along...and it was all your fault.<P>At least my H has given up that line and has begun to accept that fact that he has a problem and that he has to work it out. Given time maybe your H will accept that too.<P>Until that time, guilt will force him to put you and the children in a little box that he can put up on the shelf in his mind, until he's ready to deal with you. <P>If you want your marriage then you must wait...patience, time and continuity....it's all you have right now...but it can still carry you through. At least I hope.<P>I'll hope for that "summer" of Lor posts for both of us...we need it after this long cold winter of dispair.<P>Angels and Prayers ~ Faye<P><BR> <p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited November 17, 2000).]

Lor,<P>Thank you for your support. Sometimes I feel like I will never fit in anywhere - if there are people out there in the "real world" who were divorced against their will and still seek reconciliation, I have never met them. Of course I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of divorced people I know - and none of my friends or co-workers are divorced. <P>When someone is depressed, it is so easy to just run away to a whole new life, leaving everything behind, your family, your responsibilities, everything you ever cared about. If you aren't satisfied with your life, you can just trade it in on a new one. <P>You are right that my H is not done hurting me yet. I don't think he is consciously trying to hurt me by hurting the kids - I think it is more a matter of trying to appease the OW, who would probably prefer if every reminder of his previous life, including his kids, disappeared. <P>Faye,<P>I don't know if he will ever believe that this is more about him than about us. It will be two years in February, he will have the divorce he (or she) wants. He goes along acting like this is the most normal, reasonable thing in the world to leave your wife of almost two decades and your six children without ever mentioning that anything was wrong. He is hurt that his daughter hasn't spoken to him since he left, and he seems to think that she is treating him unfairly. He has only looked me in the eye a handful of times in the last 21 months.

Nellie,<BR>I will be on your new forum! You will not be lonely.I am sure there are others who think as you do.<BR> Gotto go ,love and prayers,Bethn

Hi Nellie,<P>I haven't been on for a long time, but this one brought me out of the wood work.<P>I believe that I am one of those who is "Divorced against their will", and YES, I AM STILL standing on my marriage vows, in hopes of reconciliation!!<P>I know that you are not a Christian, but I have found an incredible resource that is helping me "Stand on my marriage". I would be more than happy to give you this resource. You may e-mail me.<P>I do understand your pain. I never wanted to be divorced, but as time goes on, I am truly able to *see* the mistakes I MADE, long before my H affair ever happened!!! It has been a very humbling experience for me. Learing what I DID to help destroy my marriage is helping, when the time comes for my H to come home. I've stopped talking to people about it and started to pray. People think you are nuts, but I know that my marriage WILL be healed, by God's grace.<P>I am praying for you, Nellie. You need to find some peace in all of this. It hurts me to see you in so much pain.<P>Take care,<BR>Cheryl<P><p>[This message has been edited by ceecee (edited November 18, 2000).]

Nellie,<P>I'm with you... see my post on Limbo.<BR>I would give anything for a little remorse too, or for him to speak to me once. But I suppose if we had that then we would start to want more. I can see where it would not be enough, we want it all. We want them back remorsefull, and willing to participate in our recovery. <P>But please dont resent those who are able to move on to something new either. Sometimes one of us working is just not ever going to be enough. I hope if I have to accept a divorce I will have a little hope that God has something better for me out there.<BR>I do know we all desearve better than this.<P>Take care Nellie,<BR>Lora

alone1,<P>Maybe it wouldn't be quite so lonely on that hypothetical forum as I thought - thanks. <P>My H also left for someone he met on the Internet, and is living with her and her children.<P>Cheryl,<P>It's been a long time since I've seen your name. It's nice to hear from you - although I'm sure we would both prefer different circumstances.<P>One of the many things that bother me is that I really have no idea what I should have done differently. I'm sure I made mistakes, but were the things my H mentioned in the six weeks between when he left and when he filed the real reasons - I may never know. He said that he couldn't separate his feelings about me from his feelings about our financial situation - but why? He said that I promised to go back to work when the kids were older, but had not done so - yet the youngest of our six kids was still two when his affair started. Is that the real reason, or is it because he feels guilty when he thinks about me because we lost so much money on the business that he wanted to go into? Mostly he kept saying that he didn't like my basic personality, and that I couldn't change it (apparently, according to him, I had managed to hide my basic personality) - I suspect he was just trying to make sure that he picked some reason that I could do nothing about. He claimed I was trying to turn the kids against his religious beliefs, but if that were so, I did a really crummy job, because none of them had any idea what his religious beliefs were, and only the oldest two had any idea about mine. I'm sure I made mistakes, but I have no way to identify them, or to know which ones were important and which ones fell in the "putting the toilet paper roll on the wrong way" category. <P>Lora,<P>For me, I don't want "something new." I suppose it is possible that I might feel differently if it were twenty-five years ago and we didn't have 6 children together, but I know that I love my H, that I will always love him, and that even if there were somehow something "better" out there for me, there is nothing better for our children than for their two biological parents to be raising them together.

Nellie,<P>I am a new member but not new to marriage problems. My husband has been gone almost a year and has filed for divorce. I registered here because there were a lot of post from people like me that were hurting and would do anything to restore their marriage. I just started posting recently and I understand how the reactions here are not always positive. I have been considering deleting this site. I just thought I would try a few more times. I have been in a lot of pain also. My children are heart broken also. I just became a Christian this year. God has given me so much hope for my marriage.He has already delayed the divorce.<BR>It would have been final months ago. My husband hasn't said anything about restoration but things have changed with me and in our relationship. I have no doubt that God will restore my marriage.<P>Please do not hold it against me that I am a <BR>Christian. We all must find our on way. You and I are in the same boat. It is nice to have someone to talk to that doesn't say "forget him or go on with your life." I have been married before so I don't pretend to be a saint. I have just chosen a different path for restoration. The important part is that we want our marriages.<BR>You are right it is hard to find people that feel the same way about their marriage. I never thought I would feel this way. I would be gald to listen to you and give encouragement if you want it. I know you have already encouraged me. <P>I hope to hear from you'<BR>gentle<p>[This message has been edited by gentle (edited November 17, 2000).]

gentle,<P>Thank you for your encouragement. It is nice to know there are others who feel that way. <P>I certainly don't hold it against you or anyone else that they are Christian. Within my immediate family, there is a wide range of religious beliefs. I did not realize until I was an adult that that was not typical - I always thought that as you got older, you chose a religion that was appropriate for you - I had no idea when I was growing up that most people end up the same religion as their parents. <P>We were separated for over a year and a half before the judge granted my H a divorce, which will be final in January. While we were in court, working out the final details of the settlement agreement, our daughter came down with a sudden high fever at school although she had been fine less than an hour earlier. Our cell phones were off, since we were in court, so we didn't find out until after the judge granted him the divorce. If I believed in the paranormal I would think that she was trying to protest the divorce - especially since her fever disappeared and she was perfectly healthy within about 4 or 5 hours. Of course it would have worked better as a sign if I had checked my messages a bit later than I did, or if I hadn't turned the phone off quite so soon, so that I would have known about it and then of course the hearing would have had to have been delayed so I could pick her up. <P>Sometimes this seems like an impossible nightmare. Most affairs end within 18 months - especially ones that did not start as friendships - but not his. Many relationships end because of factors related to the children of one of the parties - yet he has managed to move in with her and her three teenagers (who are hard enough to deal with when they are your own). He has been out of work for 6 months - yet that doesn't seem to have put a strain on their relationship. The main thing that has done has plunged his family into poverty. Two of his daughters are not speaking to him - one of them not since the day he left - yet that doesn't matter. The OW is extremely controlling, and he is not "allowed" to spend much time at all with his kids, because they disrupt the "atmosphere" at her house. Yet this doesn't matter. The man who never really wanted to be able to see his neighbors is now living in a condo, which a few years ago would have driven him nuts. It would seem like this relationship has many strikes against it but it continues. If I believed in witchcraft, I would think that she had cast a spell on him, he has changed so much in many ways not directly related to the affair. Sometimes I wonder if he feels trapped, in part because he feels too guilty to come home, but if he were to leave her he would have given up everything for nothing, and he would be alone - and as he once said to me, "You know I hate to sleep alone."<P>

Nellie<BR>I have not been on the sight that long though it feels like a life time. It has only been 3 mos since dday, but the pain is a daily thing for me. I have not gone to "B" yet, so the heartache is reminded to me daily.<P>Lor, I know what you mean about blowing it with a response to someone. I did a similar thing about expressing to someone they should being happy the spouse was willing to work on it. They were amazed I was not on her side. I quickly told her my story. My H has not let go of the OW. I think it makes a big difference there. I am fighting so hard every day to get him to see me, in any way but as the woman he fell OUT of love with. But until the OW is gone, that will never happen. His confusion will continue. Darn her! <P>I even was rude enough to make a point on grammer(really bad grammer!!)to another lost soul. I could not even make out what she was trying to say! I don't think I ever saw her again! Much to my embarrassment. I really feel bad there. I cannot imagine what possessed me to write such tripe! Not very Christian or Episcopalian either for that matter!<P>I still fight for my marriage, for my man, for my children's lives as they know it. I tried to talk to H, last nite, about responsibility of parenting where it came to sick kids--who would medicate in the middle of the night, or get the humidifyer going...When did it become strictly my job? I want sleep too. <P>But he took immediate offense to the discussion. This is his pattern with responsibility. I asked him today not be afraid to talk to me. To be honest with me. That I was not a monster, just a wife who loved her h and wanted to talk about the well being of the kids and that I thought sharing parental responsibilities was reasonable. He could freely express his opinion to me without fearing confrontation. He said he did need to learn that. It was enough that he could admit his shortcoming. I was satisfied. (Until he got drunk later to deal with it...)<P>I have rambled enough. But I love my H. I get upset with people who enter the MB, and do not understand what our core purpose here is--to save and resore our marrriages...Even after the betrayals. Forgiveness is possible. I am living proof. Every day. (Even though he won't give her up... ) I will forgive until I cannot forgive any more.<P>Beth<P>

Nellie:<P>I am very sorry you feel lonely and without commaradre on this site. I have at times felt neglected or shut out, however, someone will always come through with a reply that will lift my spirits. I have posted topics that completely died and I would feel as though no one cared. But, that's not true. We all care, but sometimes we may not reply because the topic doesn't fit our circumstances well enough to give "good" advice, so we leave it alone for the next poster who will know more what to say.<P>My h is home and I can't say he is filled with remorse, but that really isn't the issue. If and hopefully when your H decides to come home, that will be just the beginning...for, at that time, you will begin to question yourself and the decisions you have made. You will also discover or uncover many new emotions you haven't felt.<P>Every thing starts coming out of the woodwork.. there is a whole lot of soul searching going on and that is where the "I don't know if I really want him here" comes from, it comes from inside us. All is not well just because H is HOME again. It is very, very hard work and takes time and patience to see us through.<P>So, if your h came home... all is not well and healed, it will take a very long time for you to be able to sit back and look at the situation and say Ah, yes, we have done well!!!<P>My main regrets and concern for you of course is the pain you suffer for the unjust acts of deprivation he continues to display to you and particularly your children. There is absolutely no excuse for this behavior whatsoever!!! I believe you must take whatever measures you need to take at this time to guarantee your children are cared for appropriately. I am no counselor by any means, but maybe you should consider pulling out all the stops for now and consult with your H, not in regards to either of you and how you feel about one another, but in regards to what the needs of your children are at this point. Completely set aside his needs and your needs and "make" him focus on their needs. If he can't do this within a reasonable amount of time, then he has no priveleges as their DAD.<P>My heart goes out to you and I will pray for the quick return of some comfort and peace for you and your children. Please keep us informed of how things are for you, we do care.<P>Cathy

Hi Nellie -<P>I am sorry that you feel alone...<P>I think that you know that I have the same feelings as you - just not the same circumstances as far as the added devastation of worrying and protecting the children.<P>I know that that would have made my journey through this to the current strength I have almost insurmountable. Merely for the fact that we think so much alike. I have told you before that you amaze me with the strength you have exhibited so far. I meant it!!!!<P>I sometimes would get so crazed about my H's behavior when it came to our nieces and nephew that I just wanted to scream and shake him!!! I don't know how I would have been should it have been with regards to my own kids.....I definitely would have exhibited claws and fangs!!<BR>Not very Plan A'ish huh?<P>I hear what you are saying Nel....I really do and I COMPLETELY agree with your perceptions.....<P>My advice to you is the same I gave myself.....<P>You know what is good and right for you and your family in your heart.....that is what you go by. If you do than you can't go wrong!! True, you may not receive all that you desire and deserve, but you will have lived your existance making the best of what you were dealt by displaying your love, warmth, compassion and efforts toward the people you love.<P>As you are as fully aware of as I am..there are already far too many people in this world who get caught up with thinking in "I" mode.....we aren't wired that way for the most part and are better off sticking with being examples of not conforming to the "norm" and keeping "real" to our true feelings.<P>People want to be happy....want to feel content and fulfilled.....problem is there may not be knowledge or understanding of what would provide those feelings. Soooo, they search and experiment. Sometimes with open eyes and good hearts and sometimes with only the craving in their sights and blinders to any potential hurt or wrongness that may be fallout from the path chosen.<P>I think that our "thinking" could ultimately be a good thing.....maybe others will start catching on and looking a bit deeper into what is "real" for them. Then maybe so many of us won't end up on forums like this. I certainly don't mean to imply that our way is the only right way....that is too arrogant and not true. People are different....with their own ideas and perceptions, so there will always be differences in behavior. That is how it should be. <P>No....what I mean is that people simply need to realize what is truly good for them....for their own well-being...and how to accomplish it without causing harm to others in the process.... or to themselves.<P>I guess it's "awareness" that I hope for......in myself and in others. <P>So, don't feel alone Nellie....You are definitely not......<P>I would like to see you a little less stressed though....believe me I completely relate to the money part in this too!!! But you know.....there have always been "financial" things in my life and I suppose there just might always be. Need to be happy with other aspects and not lose myself in it. I know that is next to impossible - especially nowadays with money being so predominant in just about everything in life.<P>I do find outlets though....especially with children around. Just seeing their faces light up for something so simple as a moment of attention. <P>I know....I am sort of rambling on here.<BR>Sorry........ BIG HUGS to you and just know that I am with you and understand.<P>Sheba

Hi Nellie,<P>First of all, please let me give you a big electronic hug:<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Nellie}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>And secondly, rest assured that you are not alone, and will never be. I can feel your pain as can the others here as there is no shortage of pain here. It comes in all forms and varying strengths, but is raw pain, nonetheless.<P>I know what it's like to get caught up in the maddening thought process of "what was it that I did wrong?". It can become obssessive because we all have an underlying need to make sense & order of our own little worlds. Naturally, we want to find out what it was that we did wrong because we sure don't want to make the same mistake again!! Yet, sadly, for some things, there are no answers. At least not in this lifetime. Perhaps it will be clear to us in the next.<P>Have you had a chance to read "Sudden Endings"? It was written by an author in a very similar situation to yours. Her H had a failed business and after 25 years of happy marriage, he turned on her like a pitbull. She became obssessed in trying to find some answers and after going through nearly 30 therapists, she finally found one who had an answer-- it is narcissistic rage. I won't bore you with any more details of the book in case you've already read it. But, I must say that it really gave me some insight into why these type of horrific things happen.<P>I know it is very hard to come to grips with what has happened to you. But, just know that it's NOT you-- YOU DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG!!!! <P>I saw an excellent segment on the Oprah show this week on forgiveness-- actually forgiving yourself. One of the guests said that when you're tempted to fall into the trap of thinking "What If?", try to turn it into "What Next".<P>Hugs to you, Nellie. Hang in there. We all care about you.

Well, you've gotten some wonderful replies to your excellent thread. It's helped me learn a few things. The experts came out of the closet on this one.<P>Nellie, I've always read your posts, and I admire your path. It's clear and good. I don't know how you stay on it...and I don't know it I'm the kind of person that can follow in those footsteps. <P>I'm at the point where I only associate my husband with pain now. I pretend he does not exist. Today I emptied out our closet of all of his belongings and boxed them up...dried eyed the whole time. It felt good to do this. I come home every day and wonder if he's been here and look to see what he's taken this time...I don't have to do that anymore.<P>I guess I've been reading with a lot of interest lately those posts by people who are both trying...and it does not look easy. There has just been so much damage done here. I hope some day to be able to have a normal discussion with him about the children, or anything really...but right now I"m too raw.<P>Let's try to remember that pain is pain here on these boards. Yes, some of us have stories that are hard to believe...abuse, financial ruin, ignoring the kids...but if new people come here with suspicions, or after discovering a one night stand by their spouse...it's killing them. Nothing, and I mean nothing can feel worse to me than pre-discovery...being lied to...checking bills...having to find out everything by myself. That's why I just can't go to the Just Found Out section...I can't handle their pain.<P>Nellie, I hope the OW falls off the face of the earth and your husband wakes up and realizes what the hell he has done...it does happen. It sounds like he is in a little fantasy world over there, and I hope it is temporary. I wish I could come along with you and the others here and hope and pray for restoration...but for now all I can do is hope and pray that I can get through tonight without breaking down.<P>Thank God for Prozac, huh? <P>I do admire you Nellie and the others here that are so clear in what you want.<P>My parents were married to each other twice BTW. They divorced when I was about eighteen, and actually got back together at my wedding when I was 24. They remarried and stayed together about 4 years, before divorcing again...but never stopped loving each other. I had to be the one to tell my mom when my dad died...she was devestated...though they'd been divorced for 10 years. But when it was good...boy was it good between them. I mean...there was a lot of passion there.<P>Don't know if I made you feel better or worse posting this. Hope I didn't make you want to give up. Please stay your course...I too believe in marriage, and I don't think your story is over yet.<P>allison

I just dropped by for a minute - my kids have a busy weekend this weekend - but I want you to know I appreciate all your responses and I will respond more tomorrow.

If anyone belongs on MB, you do Nellie,so do not go.<P>You are in the minority asyou state,butyou have dealt with and are dealing with so much and still loveyour H and want him back.<P>Whether he ever realizes how lucky he is and is able to work with you is in the future....and no-one has a crystal ball. You have done all that you could have to make it work,and still will if given the opportunity...it is not what you have done "wrong"...because you will not find any truths in what H states. His whole lifenow is a lie.<P>Nellie, I so admire you...you have the patience of Job and the strength that dwarfs all others I know,and yet you demonstrate so much that is good in the World.<BR>You are truly an example to me.<P>My heart bleeds especially for ALL our children,who are taught that <BR>1)love is conditional--- "if you fight, I will not see you""if you are not nice to me,I will not fund your schooling" BUT "I will pay for another child...because he is NICE to ME"<BR>2)Happiness is paramount and needs to be fulfilled at all others expense.<BR>3)I count,no-one else does.<BR>4)Infidelity is normal<BR>5)materialism is preferable to family<BR>6)behaviour is justified through lies<BR>7)NO responsibility financially<BR>8)No responsibility parentally...<P>And no wonder d states" I have never seen dad so happy...he is just like a 17 year old....with no responsibilities!"<P>

Dear Nellie<P>You inspire me to be more thankful for my marriage, albeit its brokeness.<P>Like you, I feel that my situation with its twists and schemes and a psycho witch, is too bizarre and different from the others in this forum. Been to four counsellors (with more than a century of experience between them)and psychologists and no one has even heard and counselled a case like mine. <P>Through this storm and the undeserved hurts, I reach out to God and He carried me through the most despairing and suicidal times. I wouldn't have survived without Jesus holding me and my baby in the palm of His hand, and saying "Tis far better to have heard God's voice than to have the love of man'. God can work miracles in our lives and in our children's lives. <P>If you wish, I will pray that you learn to lean on and trust God.<P>God bless you<BR>weep

Nellie,<P>Just wanted you to know that I think about you. I just don't have the words to say it.<P>I admire you for hanging there, aginst all odds. <P>While my WS is here, & wants to be in his sons lives, I don't know how much longer either one of us is going to do it. I feel he is working toward a divorce, I will not fight him. I may make it hard in some areas, about contact of my sons with OW & her family (they have encouraged their relationship) but I am at the point where enough is enough. MOst likely these things will stay the same till May of 2001 & till then I try & do Plan A but it is hard. <P>You just do what you have to do. Know that you are not alone & their our lots of people here who care about you.

burnedspouse,<P>It does seem to have changed here at MB, and especially over in the D/D forum - when I first came here, about a year and a half ago, most posters did seem dedicated to marriage rebuilding, but the balnance seems to have shifted quite a bit.<P>catplay,<P>Unfortunately I can't do anything to change the way he treats the children. My lawyer thinks it is terrible; his lawyer thinks it is terrible, but in this state anyway, non-custodial parents can pretty much do what they want with respect to visitation, as long as they don't want more than the standard visitation. <P>Sheba,<P>I no longer have much input into what happens with the children. He doesn't have to support them in this state as long as he doesn't actually turn down a job. If he can't get a job because people are giving him negative references because he couldn't get along with his coworkers, which I suspect is one of the major reasons he hasn't found a job, the state won't do anything about it. Eventually I will just be so deeply in debt that I will be homeless and I won't be able to feed the kids, and then it will be all my fault. <P>Sidney,<P>Thanks for the support. Yes, I did read sudden endings. I just wish I had read it before I got married - but I suppose I wouldn't have believed it then. <P>Allison,<P>I know all of us are in pain. I too thought pre-discovery was the worse pain imaginable - until my H left and almost immediately shoved the OW into their lives. This is far, far worse. <P>willbok,<P>Yes, I agree that his whole life is a lie. What he has done has destroyed his children's outlook on life, on relationships. They say he has been taken over by aliens, and sometimes I think some of them really believe that literally. The older ones, however, are convinced that this is the "real" him, and that the father they thought they once knew was the sham.<P>weep,<P>Certainly the OW in your case probably takes the cake for psychosis. <P>Sometimes it really gets to me that I do see the same thing over and over on this board and others, but it is rare for H's to treat their kids like this. Generally, they either disappear entirely out of their kids lives, or they see them regularly. I can't think of any other cases where they see their kids so little, never call them, yet still try to control their lives.<P>sing,<P>Unfortunately I have no control over contact between the OW and my kids. My H introduced them without my knowledge. When I asked him a couple weeks later to spend his visitation time with the children rather than having the OW take them places alone, it did no good.