Update from my earlier post - We had a talk when my wife came over to pick up our son. She claims that she never asked our son to lie for her, but she admits to not telling me that she knew she was having our son with OM against my wishes. On the one occasion in question, I told her I had heard that they were together and she answered "more of the same," based on the source of the information. I took this as a denial. Today she claims this was not a lie because I didn't ask her directly if they were together with our son. Very Clintonian.<P>She still claims she has not had an adulterous affair, although she did fall in love with OM. She says she explained to our son that the reason Dad doesn't like OM is that OM thinks of her as her boyfriend. She claims now that they're best friends only and she wants only to be friends with me for our son's sake. She says that the OM is not a threat to me and never was, that she was tired of her unhappiness with our marriage and that even without OM, she was going to take steps to separate (we are currently 3 months separated). She says that today, she sees no chance of a reconciliation, but all relationships start as friends. She claims to have looked at the copy of His Needs, Her Needs I gave her and it confirmed her feeling that we were not meeting each others emotional needs for many years, and confirmed her view that we never will be able to again. I reminded her that we once did, and it's possible to do it again if we try and to please keep an open mind. But, I told her that if we are to ever try to rebuild, that it can't happen if she's still friends with OM. She responded that then it's pretty much settled, she will not stop being friends with OM.<P>What should I make of all this? In her mind, she has successfully separated the affair from our previous problems. If OM is no threat to me, why is everything so secret? Is she being a typical fence sitter as the fog is lifting, or is it still pea soup thick? Or, is she displaying the pattern of an exit affair?<P>Help, please. I was being hopeful, but now it seems hopeless.<P>WAT

My wife is due back any time, so have to make it quick. Mine still says they are friends, never were more, and that our separation has nothing to do with him. Still just friends eh? Funny, last night she wrote him "how about a romantic dinner with wine, then back to your place and I'll massage your whole body with oil, then who knows what will happen". Quite a friendship. Got to get me some friends I guess. Talking about what could be for us isn't a good topic, because it always just quickly flips to the past, which wasn't that bad anyway. Just ENs missing on both sides.<P>In my opinion your wife is very much where mine is, although I don't know what is happening with her OM. Point is they are lying to us, so who knows the real feelings of our WSs.<P>You can't conclude Exit affair, or that she has successfully separated marriage problems from OM. I don't believe either. Pea soup is more accurate. They won't talk to us about US at this stage....that has to come later, and they are not at that point yet. And the just wanting to be friends with you thing....that is for now, and she may believe it, but give it time. Plan A is always the answer isn't it.<P>I'm not telling mine yet that she could never be friends with her OM, because I know her response would be exactly like yours. I would wait to bring that up again. Need to be entering recovery for that. Got to go.

Sorry, had to go fast because I thought my wife came in the driveway. Guess I was almost finished anyway. But the point I do want to stress is that our measure of progress fluctuates based on our famous analysis and the conversations we have with our WS. Any talk about future together usually results in us thinking we have not made as much progress as we thought. But really, this is all normal in the fog. If they aren't ready, even if they are cordial and doing things subliminally that seem to be good, verbally they don't want us to think there is anything to it.<P>Like you said in your response to my post in your other thread, it seems like I'm doing great. But am I? Yesterday and even this morning, I felt crappy at points, knowing we have to tell the kids etc. Also, as you might have read, the stuff mine is writing to OM is sickening. Massages, sleeping together, loves to hear him breath at night, loves the little kisses he gives her all night. Grab me one of those air sickness bags, quick. If I look at that, I'm doing horrible, but yet today she mentioned (on her own...that seems to be key) who knows in 6 months. How can she write this crap to OM and then pretend that in 6 months she might be back. Obviously OM is not a sure thing in her mind, and she is very confused. Man, am I rambling again.<P>Sometimes lately, especially after my snooping revealed this stuff, I felt like Plan B was coming soon. But one of the first things I think then is, damn, WAT will give me a blast if I do that! Luckily I get grounded and continue Plan A.<P>Anyway, I suggest no direct talk about HN/HN and that sort of stuff, because look how she twisted it around to say that yes you didn't meet needs, and she concluded that you never could do that together. That isn't what the book says. At this stage, our WS will draw the conclusion that fits their story.<P>Hang in there and don't think there is no progress, because there is. I suppose it depends on what the definition of the word IS is. Sorry, had to throw that in after reading the Clintonian comment from you.<P>PS - maybe you should tell your wife to return "the book" to the library...I think my wife will want to borrow it again soon....you know, the book they are both living their lives from...cause this post of yours could be written by me about my wife....same stuff. Even the "all relationships start as friends" stuff....scary.<p>[This message has been edited by Rick37 (edited November 25, 2000).]

Thanks, Rick. You're a real trooper. The scary part for me is that my wife is soooo convincing in her discussions. I never was her equal in the communication department. Our marraige was dysfunctional for many years, partly due to the energy we had to put in to our sick son. You would have thought that would have made us closer - working so well together like we did - but it didn't. There was no intimacy for many years. It's a wonder our second child (the one that died at 8 1/2) was ever conceived. We were child centered all the way. I was not satisfied with our marriage, but I was not going to try to solve two problems at once - grieving for our child and fixing the marriage at the same time. So, she has legitimate gripes about our marriage and takes equal responsibility for it. This is what makes me think this could be an exit affair.<P>The other thing is that I think the affair has cooled considerably - she just doesn't have the time nor opportunity to participate and if it's fizzling, why would she now announce that no reconciliation seems likely? She convincingly says she wants to be friends, and wants me to get on with my life, i.e., find a girlfriend. If I asked her to take our son for a night so I could run around the house naked with a hot babe, she'd be quicker than a chicken on a june bug to take me up on it (if you Canadians don't understand this Southern expression, I'll explain).<P>Anyway, thanks for the support. I hope to hear from some of the former WSs. I'm still pulling for SKM for President.<P>WAT

wat,<P>i don't think she really read the book if she thinks it is not possible for you two to begin meeting eachothers needs again. it sounds like the fog to me. <P>my spouse had concluded that our marriage was over and could not be saved. even though we were still married that is how he justified having the A. We were just plain over in his mind. so they do seperate it in their minds from the marital problems. when she comes out of the fog, she wont be thinking that this other guy is no threat to her marriage any more.<P>cleo

Couple more thoughts, just for laughs sort of. Today we took our kids to the Santa parade with a couple that are friends of ours, and their kids. This couple has marital problems, and the woman isn't happy, because he doesn't seem interested in changing anything. So my wife tells me today that she thinks that [female married friend] is interested in me. Then says, "I won't stand in the way of you two". I just shook my head and asked her what on earth she was thinking. Hello, she is married with two kids. I haven't joined the club of men with no morals. Just another ridiculous thought coming from my wife. But rest assured that my wife has indicated numerous times that I should find someone too. I really think that this is only because they desperately want to justify the end of the marriage, and right now, the action takers are our wives. They don't want to be the ones that look at fault. So if we find someone, then they can say "hey, he found another woman". And since they deny any affairs, suddenly we would be the bad guys.<P>This business of being convincing is something I'm used to as well. When we have the discussions that turn to US, mine becomes abrasive and nasty, but I think they have to have this formal position. They need it to justify not coming home. At times I've thought that wife's OM thing was reverting to friends, and I asked on here as well, why then doesn't she seem at least a little interested in talking about us. The responses seemed to all say that the confusion and resolve to not come back can be higher in that phase where it might be fizzling, because they put all their eggs in that basket, but now it isn't working. They had to convince themselves the marriage was over in order to have the affair, so even though OM might not be as strong, it doesn't mean they think more of reconciliation...at least for awhile. It is hard to understand.<P>I think we really need to do our best in Plan A. Step it up a bit if possible. I think mine is in a bit of a rut lately, but I want to make it better, reorganize it a bit.<P>We told our kids today, and tomorrow we take them to her place. I have a business trip later this week (to the south where chickens are all over june bugs), so they are going to stay at her place. Welcome to the new world for me.<P>I've filled up your post, so maybe you'll have to start a new one late Sunday to avoid someone having to read so much stuff to see what is going on with you. I know some responses form former WSs are nice at this sort of time.<BR>

WAT,<BR>My x said almost the same exat things. She was leaving anyway and om just "happened" to come along when he did.<P>She also recommended that I start dating too. Did she also tell you she cried herself to sleep for years because she was so unhappy?<P>My x also tried to a first pass om as a roommate, then a male roommate, friend and finally boyfriend. My s seemed to know right along.<P>I almost got a arrested because I found out then w had lied to me and especially the kids when she had them at the apartment one night and om showed up after she promised he wouldn't. He was "tired of staying out and besides, he lives there." I decided to confront her at her place of work about her lying to the kids because my s was very upset by om being there.<P>The security guard and local police didn't appreciate me yelling at her at her place of work.<P>Its the still the soup. They will say or do anything to justify what they are doing.<p>[This message has been edited by RWD (edited November 26, 2000).]

Cleo - how bad was your marriage really for your spouse to conclude it wasn't worth saving? Looking for a comparison here.<P>This is my struggle, because our marriage was on ice for so long. We were great parents together and appeared the perfect, succesful couple, but there was nothing inside. To repair it I think it will take work on just a couple ENs and the rest will fall in place - but it probably looks like a lost cause to her right now.<P>WAT

Pea Soup - with a few more vegetables thrown in for good measure.<P>Rick37 and WAT - I get you all confused now. I just responded to one of your messages. Can't you guys just sign on together or something - get a joint name? <P>Rick37 - your wife is the one who's "hanging out" with the single guy who doesn't want kids and his family would be miffed if they found out about the affair - no doubt that there is one, unless she's writing some pretty good fictional stories.<P>WAT - your wife is the one who's left because mommy doesn't love daddy anymore, and this other guy is a friend of the family who also happened to move out - and all relationships start out as friends, but that's all the OM and she are FRIENDS.<P>You guys have got to stop asking if it is the Fog or not. . .Rick, your situation is pretty obvious - she has a thing for this other guy - physical and mental. By moving into her own place, she thinks she will be able to spend more time with the OM - that they can be the um-married, swinging singles that their love was meant to have. Wrong - she has a child (or two) I forget. As a single mom - she'll have less time than she has now to be sexy and single with the OM./ She may have her own place when she doesn't have the kids, but when she has them, I doubt the OM will fancy that as much. You have a good plan - when it's her turn to have the kids, keep yourself busy. You always want to be there for your kids, but don't make it easy on your wife to get out of doing her share of parenting - even though she's probably doing more damage than good right now.<P>WAT - Your wife. . .she doesn't think that it's an affair. . .The only thing I can say is that I was there once. I never considered my affair a PA - until, well, until we went "all the way." Before, I just considered it "friendship" and it was difficult to define when the "friendship" went to an EA - because - oh, its a mess, but we were just acqauintances (I know that's spelled wrong). But the first night I knew I was in trouble, was the night I kissed the OM - but I never really considered it an affair, or cheating or anything for a while - until it happened - oh the next day. And, I still considered it, in my mind only (like that's better) only an EA - not a PA - even though we had kissed, etc. . .I know this is way more information than you need - so let me skip ahead.<P>When you find that you miss the OM more than you miss your H (say, while on travel or something); or if you cannot wait to here from your "friend" more than hearing from your own H; or if when the phone rings you hope its the OM - not your H - well, to me, that's more than friendship - whether or not something "physical" has happened or not. The emotional bond is there, and it is a dangerous relationship for a marriage.<P>Your wife wants to separate the affair (and, yea, I think it is one - it may just be an emotional thing, but it's still an inappropriate relationship for a married woman) from your "marital" relationship problems - because that helps to justify or rationalize her feelings for the OM. She says that they are only friends, well, if they are only friends - she should be willing to give up that friend in order to save her marriage - but she doesn't want to save her marriage - so she see no reasons to break up her friendship. . .The comment about "All relationships starting out as friends. . " if that doesn't tell you something it should. She's trying to keep this "friendship" going - but she's almost admitting that later on down the road - there could be more - if everything works out.<P>It's just strange, I guess. Your marriage may have had its problems - but you're willing to try and work them out - she's not even willing to try - because "Geez, she's been there the whole time - working her butt off to make things work and it's just not there between you anymore." She doesn't see how you all will be able to meet each others' needs again - because - well, this other guy on some level is meeting those - maybe not all of them right now, but the fact that you don't want your son around this OM, and she still takes him around him - well, maybe that's because it's only friendship - or maybe its because she sees nothing wrong with it - you're being unreasonable, you're the one who's threatened by this guy. You're wrong about this - she's right, and she won't see any differently for a while.<P>I don't know, maybe there's nothing going on with this OM - okay, then find another friend. She doesn't see the need to do that, why? Because they're friends, your marriage was over years ago anyway, she likes him, he likes her, they have some laughs together that's all, just friends. . . It just doesn't make sense (to her it probably does, though). If this guy and her were only friends, then well, why does she need to bring your son around him? Before the divorce? She's fishing for reasons not the face the inevitable - that she's the one who chose to leave her marriage - not you. Even with all "your" problems - you're still there - willing to try. And she cannot understand that, and she cannot face that she is the one doing the leaving. Maybe she thought you "left the relationship" a long time ago, but you've always been there - physically at least. It's just strange. . .<P>So, I don't know if I made this more confusing or not, Rick37 - oh I mean WAT - I just wanted to say that I think you both are trying to do amazing things. I hope you can hang in there - dig down and perservere - and then see what happens. I know you want to be "nice" during Plan A - but you also have to work on yourselves. Don't try to analyze this crap - just go out and do things that you like to do, have fun with your kids, live your life - right now - without your wife's participation. Just don't get involved with another woman until the divorce is final - you may regret it - that's the only advice I have. Because - you're needs aren't being met right now - you need to find soem outlets - but don't let that outlet result in another affair. Be. . .. . .Patient. . . .

SKM,<P>Once again you are amazing....you just have a way of passing on your experience, insight, thoughts, and advice that is so helpful. And today I'm not a very happy camper because it was the first time we took the kids to my wife's place. I made the decision to go, but only for an hour, and now I'm back home. She will drop them off to me at dinner time. However, you made me laugh with your joint name request, and saying we have to stop asking if it is the fog. Thanks for the boost.

SKM - ditto Rick's thanks. We need you, please keep us on track.<P>My wife's remark about "all relationships start as friends" was her token nod to me, if we remain friends. She is one messed up woman. I plan to ask her today why she hasn't signed the separation papers. Could be financial reasons - she may have second thoughts on how much she gave me.<P>WAT

WAT,<P>My wife, as you probably know, hasn't shown any interest in papers either. "I don't think we need anything" is her position. I interpret this as wanting the perks (as she sees them) of separation, without having to deal with any of the formal stuff. These discussions seem to be LBs for me, or at least she becomes agitated, so I'm just laying low on that one for now. Others would say big mistake, you leave yourself vulnerable, but it is a calculated risk in my eyes.

Okay, one more point. . .byt signing the separation papers - it makes this whole mess "real" to them. If they are hesitating to sign the papers - I think it's because their not really sure what they want - hence the fog. If they were so darn sure of everything, the separation papers would be signed, divorce proceedgins would have started by now. It's just so strange. They go out and get new places to live, but their hanging on to the "old, " too.<P>WAT - I know what you wife means about the "being friends" part first, and it kind of makes sense, in a way. So, be her best friend. . .<P>Rick37 - I think your exactly right, they want the perks of being separated without having to face the formalities or the finalities.

Thanks SKM - my thoughts exactly on signing the papers. In Maryland, where we live, couples with kids must be separated for one year before divorce. My wife is sort of a cover-your-bases type and her motivation for having a legal separation was to document the start of the separation and our agreement for 50/50 custody. But once I signed it, she always seemed to downplay it's significance. In one conversation, she called it "non-binding." <P>I asked her yesterday - more about yesterday below - where the papers were? She said her lawyer had them. I asked if she signed them and she said yes. I responded that there are things we have to do within a certain time frame (like change titles on cars). She replied it's on her list of things to do. I think she's lying that she signed them because her lawyer would have had to send a copy to my lawyer and to me.<P>Anyway, yesterday she brought my son over to get some things of his for school (he stayed with her last night) and she sat in the car. Normally she comes in without knocking and plays with the dogs who happily greet her (ah! a dog's life!!). I walked out to the car and asked if she was coming in and she said she doesn't want to be here. I think she was still upset with the whole bit about my complaints about our son being around OM, but I thought we had that behind us for the time being. She's mad at our au pair whom she thinks snoops info from the OM's family down the street. (Actually, the OM's family corners her and wants info from us - I have ended all communication with OM's family because they don't know how to handle themselves. But this is how we discovered that our son had been with OM. So I think OM distorts the truth to my wife to make us sound like the bad guys.) She was obviously not her cheerful self like she was on Thanksgiving, rather a depressed sort of mood. I asked if she was mad at me and she said no. I asked what's bothering her - is it something to do with me or something with her. As a default response, she said it was with her, but her response indicated to me that there's something else. She previously left her cell phone in our house and I asked her if she wanted it as she was leaving and she said no. This morning she called me about our son being home sick from school - just for info; an agreement we have to always communicate anything unexpected about him - and I took the opportunity to ask if she's OK. She said yes. I said you looked upset yesterday and remember I'm here if you need help. She said a polite thanks. I asked if she wanted the cell phone back and she said no. Don't know what all this means. My gut tells me she's not mad at me, but the cell phone return and not wanting to come into the house tells me that maybe she wants to further distance herself from me. OR, she's in some sort of internal turmoil with herself and/or OM.<P>Here I go, analyzing again. Rick, SKM - please whip me.<P>WAT

I'm not going to miss a chance to kick into analysis mode...however, I'm working and don't have time now. Just found it ironic about the cell phone. Mine cancelled hers...is sick of everyone being able to reach her. Quite a difference from a few months ago. This mood of your wife's is a good thing. Shows that all is not wonderful.<P>Got to go now....I'll be back as Arnold would say.

WAT - Another Marylander, eh? We've got to stick together! <P>Anyway, let's not focus on your wife right now, let's focus on you. . .you did some really cool stuff. Gently reminded her about things involving the separation - you do want to cover yourself, but you handled it in a good way - it's on "her list," so that's good in the sense that she knows she has to do it - and she knows you know . She probably hates being reminded of things she has to do. . .but it keeps it in the forefront - reality check. <P>A copy of the separation agreement hasn't been sent yet, hmmmm. . .if nothing else - sounds like she has ALOT to do lately - maybe that's getting a bit overwhelming for her.<P>Asking her what was wrong - very cool - you did it in a very good way. You didn't pry, but you asked if it was something about you or something about her - no specifics. And she said it was something with her. Man, that's the way my H used to be, and I liked it so much - he wouldn't push, but would listen if I needed to talk - like a friend would. Reminding her that you are "there" for her if she wants to talk - very cool. My H always said stuff like that. And, it sounds weird, now, but that always made me feel safe - like I could talk if I felt like I needed too, or I could keep it in - he respected my feelings to confide in him - or just to keep it in. I think, in time, your wife will confide in you more. It may not look like you're scoring, but you're making those small love bank deposits - that before you know it - will be pretty big in time (wish I could say the same about my Christmas fund).<P>My hunch is, I don't think her "mood" is due to you - I think there's something going on with the OM - especially given the fact that she was "upset" about the au pair thing.<P>If you're going to analyze - analyze the stuff you're doing. And, in my opinion, you handled that whole thing pretty darn good - given how you must be feeling inside! Good for you.

Rick - agree, moodiness is good for us - as long as we didn't cause it or don't get blamed for it. I talked to her again this morning and she's really PO'd at our au pair who feels caught in the middle. I think what she's really upset at is that "information" is being exchanged about her and OM and she has no control over it. That's life in the fast lane! The big problem is OM's wife who went off the deep end and refuses any help from docs. She tells things to OM that occur between herself and us (me, au pair, and son) or makes things up, then OM tells my W - and we can imagine what a truth teller he is - and then my W acts or makes conclusions on this info and sometimes it comes back to me or au pair as our fault. Kind of an automated LB.<P>Someone get me otta here!<BR>WAT

WAT,<P>I just thought of something as I was reading SKM's last reply. I was so into analyzing everything I found out about OW and my H that it made my head spin. I could have done that for hours on end. Then I realized that this really wasn't about the OW. She was in the right place at the right time. This was about what was wrong with me and H.<P>Mind you, I had some clues that he was seperating himself from me financially. Found that he was considering setting up some trusts in the kids names etc... I knew I couldn't control that. I just did the best Plan A I could possibly muster. When I felt weak, I cried on a friends shoulder. <P>Anyway, when I stopped dwelling on all that peripheral junk, I got down to the business of me and being a better wife which is what Plan A is all about. That's when I slowly started to feel better. It's also when I think he really started to take notice. <BR>I think what I am trying to tell you is that all this other stuff that goes on around you is just a distraction. In the end it will be you and your wife. That's what I would spend my energy on.<P>cleo

Thanks again SKM and Cleo. Cleo, you're absolutely right about analyzing - SKM has already disciplined me and Rick37 for overdoing it. You ladies are a blessing!<P>SKM - We live in Montgomery Village, next to Gaithersburg.<P>WAT

Add my name to Wat/Rick37.<BR>Everytime I come here to post a problem one or both of you guys have beaten me to it. I too am having the same problems. My w's affair is tied to the internet and cell phone.(long distance romance) Her new work schedule limits the time that she can spend on the computer. Lately she has talked about getting rid of it. I wonder if the EA is cooling. But she still doesn't want to talk about us working on our marriage. Today I asked her if she was happy with the way things are and she said that she doesn't think that she will ever be happy again. I asked if she could have everything the way that she wanted, where did she see herself a year from now and she replied that, she doesn't know what she wants. <BR>Friday we went Christmas shopping together and while we were having dinner she told me that she would be back home by Valentine's Day. I took that with a grain of salt, but at least she is thinking about it. I'm really trying to hold on to Plan A, but Sometimes I find my feelings for her slipping away. Damn, this stuff is hard. I know that I'm rambling, but sometimes you just need to vent and this is my only outlet.