I updated my situation a few days ago ("End of the Rollercoaster Ride"), but here's some new info, along with a question.<P>I've decided I don't want to be married to my W anymore. She's moving ahead with the divorce papers, and I'm okay with that. She let me down one last time this past week, by seeing the OM after she agreed to "no contact." She's given up on the marriage, and now so have I. No more funds in the Love Bank...account closed!<P>Last night, I went out with my divorced guy friends...kind of a "He-Man Woman-Haters Club" thing. I've been out with them a lot in the past few months, and had plenty of opportunities to stray from my vows. I always held back in the past. Partly because I promised myself I wouldn't betray my marriage vows, and partly because I thought there was still a chance to save my relationship with W. Well, last night things changed.<P>I met someone that caught my eye last night, and I didn't hold back! <P>She's the same age, divorced, hasn't been out on the "scene" for awhile, and is a dead ringer for Cheri Oteri from "Saturday Night Live." We danced most of the night, talked a lot, and yes, I kissed her...often! We didn't do anything else, but I got her phone number and told her I'd call her.<P>Now, I know that I'm on the rebound like its nobody's business. I know she's just the first thing that came along (who also thinks I'm sexy), and I know that it will probably just last maybe a few dates and that's it. She knows my situation, and I think she wants the same thing I do: someone to go out and have fun with. I'm inclined to call and ask her out.<P>So, am I cheating? My divorce will be final sometime in January. I don't love my wife anymore, and I'm so sick of going to movies alone, or sitting at home on Saturday night, watching tv...why not start the rest of my life now? <P>Any thoughts would be appreciated!<P>p.s. Update on OM. STBX called this morning to get some financial info for our papers. She mentioned that she needed me to watch D in a couple of weeks, as she was going to Vegas to see her friend. I said "you mean OM?" She said no, her friend (the female friend who helped her find OM in the first place). Then she said something strange: "I don't know if you care, but that thing (with OM) looks like its pretty much over. I don't know what his deal is, but we're done." Hey, wasn't this guy your "soul-mate" just a few months ago???

oh well i'm going to say something that many may not agree with but no i don't consider it cheating<BR>the only down-side is bringing someone into a relationship with you if there's a lot of baggage to deal with - i don't think it comes down to 'do i wait for January' but 'am i ready to casually date?'<BR>just make sure you don't involve someone else in the mess

cjack - cheating? IMHO, technically , yes; morally, NO!<P>Go have some fun.<P>WAT

Hey CJack!<P>I don't have any good advice to give you because as you may know ... I'm in the same boat ... seeing an OP.<P>I can share my feelings of what I've experienced tho ... when I'm with him my mind is only in the moment and I'm soooo damn happy ... I feel better than human ... I feel so sexy and desired I could explode ... but once he's left and I'm alone I have twinges of guilt ... maybe it's my strict Catholic up bringing .... knowing that I'm not yet divorced and I still have a degree of love left for my H. <P>I've gotten a lot of good advice regarding dating while still married from friends here at MB ... and I know everyone's story is different, but I do believe that you and I and any others in our situation have to at least acknowledge what the experts (MB Books, Counselors, Pastors etc.) tell us ... and that is we are not yet emotionally whole and haven't healed our wounds from what we've gone thru, and theses wounds may very well cause a new relationship to faulter.<P>CJack, you know I would love to see you be happy and spend time with someone who cherishes you and see's how special you are ... I'm just trying to say that preparing yourself for some unexpected emotional rollercoasting in this new relationship should be expected. You see ... I have two rollercoasters now, one with H and one with OM. And at times my rollercoasterc events with my H sets off the rollercoaster with my OM. Jeeeez!<P>Good luck, have fun, and God Bless.<P>Love,<BR>Jo

Thanks to all for the words of support. Especially Jo...it's nice to know I'm not alone in my situation.<P>Let me point out one thing, though. I have no intention whatsoever of having a "relationship" with this woman or any other for a long time. My heart has been completely broken, and I won't even give a piece of it to anyone until I've put it back together and polished it up a bit. This whole experience has left me rather bitter and cynical. I just want to date, have fun, and not worry about committment, relationships, or deep emotions for awhile.<P>I've stepped of the rollercoaster, and it made me sick to my stomach. I think I'll just ride on the teacups for awhile!<p>[This message has been edited by cjack (edited November 30, 2000).]

cjack:<P>Yes, I'd say you were "cheating". Technically and morally. Your cheating hasn't really led to anything serious yet, but it has the potential. So just as I'd warn someone who's starting down the road to an affair, I'd tell you not to pursue this woman.<P>As Jo points out, you're really not "ready" for dating yet. No matter how great it feels, rebound relationships often fail miserably and lengthen the time it takes to recover properly from a divorce. Although you're not planning on making this a serious relationship, you are WAY TOO emotionally vulnerable and needy; you have a high potential to do exactly that---no matter how intellectually strong you may be. You're playing with fire here: if I starved my 10 year old for a few days and then put him in a room full of cookies---do you think they'd get eaten, even if he "knew better"? What if I told him that he could nibble on one, but that was it?<P>You get the point.<P>I'd suggest that for now you try to keep your dating confined to groups, and not even suggest that you try solo dating for at least 6 months AFTER your divorce is final. Otherwise, you're liable to end up in another "bad" situation that's partly of your making.

Ok...as the only person on these boards (and I do feel a bit superior about that...LOL) that has actually SEEN Jack, let me tell you, he is adorable!<P>Maybe I should hold back a bit on my personal feelings here, but as you guys may know that I'm a bit raw right now. <P>---------------GO FOR IT-------------!!!!!!!<P>Just watch your hearts. Don't hurt and don't be hurt. You and your significant otheres may be on the same page at the beginning of a relationship, but, as we know all too well here, people change. Don't promise anything you can't give...i.e. your hearts.<P>Jack, you have been hurt deeply, but you are a solid kinda guy. Make sure that she knows exactly where you are in your life. Women (and I mean no disrespect) tend to say and do whatever they need to, in order to get a guy interested. Yep, all of a sudden, deer hunting will be the most amazing thing in the world.<P>Please go slow...there are a lot of vulnerable women out there.<P>allison

Well, I suppose until the Divorce is final you are cheating. It may be safer to wait until the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed before you engaged in anything - just to be safe! On the other hand, you sound like you've been through it all and have tried your hardest, so I can't blame you! Don't get hurt!

I don't agree that there is some special or significant timeline to 'wait' to date - each person has to make their own choices. <P>My counselor told me to wait a year after my divorce was final - that would be 2 1/2 - 3 years AFTER discovery....I am almost 40 and have no intention of putting my life on hold for that long - I still would like to have children. My husband dropped the ball and made his choices - why should I punish myself.<P>As I saw it - my marriage died the day of discovery - it was just the last straw in a series of problems over an 18 year relationship. It has been one year since D-day - after 10 months of counseling - we have both decided it is over. <P>I just happen to meet someone, by chance, (although - I don't really believe in chance - I believe God brings people into our lives for a purpose) We are both cautious, but I feel like Jo - he is special, and I feel special when I am with him, and we just clicked.... <P>Should I allow this special person to pass by because a counselor suggest an arbitrary timeline for hurt, grief and recovery? I one of those people who doesn't let the grass grow underneath me and I know when to move forward. <P>I know cjack says it is just a few date thing - and as long as he is honest with this other person - doesn't lead her on thinking more is possible - I see no harm in a few dates if he thinks he is ready - it is ultimately his choice and decision. <P>cjack - you know you best - follow your heart and your conscious.<P>just my opinion. J

Thanks for more timely replies! I called and left her a message, so I think I'm leaning towards seeing her. We'll see what I say when she calls back...<P>K: Yes, I think I'm cheating, if I view my vows in their strictest sense. Yet I feel as if I'm playing a game where the deck is stacked against me, and I've already lost, so what's wrong with playing the ace I have up my sleeve? I know that's not the right attitude to take, but even I have grown tired of my own admittedly strict interpretation of marriage vows. As for my emotional strength; my heart is pretty well hardened at this point. I've always let my intellect lead my emotions, except in the case of my STBX. I followed my heart with her, and I'm not likely to make that mistake anytime soon. My therapist was amazed by my ability to look at my situation objectively. That is what I'm doing here. It's like I'm watching myself. There's a coldness that was never there before. Everytime I would go on a date in the past, or pick up someone at the bar, there would be an excitement; an elation; the thrill of a new thing. There was nothing last night, except for a kind of cold satisfaction that I still "had it" when it comes to the singles scene.<P>You're "cookie" analogy is an interesting one, though. I'll remind you that I've been out with the guys quite a lot in these months since the A started. I've had plenty of "cookies" offered to me. This time, I took a bite...just one bite.<P>Allison: How are you? Can't wait until January, even if I'll be the only guy in a room of tearful women! <P>She knows where I am in my life, and I will make that even more clear, if the opportunity to see her again arises. I suspect (from talking to her sister earlier today), that she's about in the same place emotionally that I am: just coming out of the dark...looking around to see what's going on. As to the "importance of deer hunting," the only thing that worries me is that she's a big fan of the radio station. So maybe she's really just attracted to the guy on the radio, and not the real me.<P>Alberta: Thanks for warning me about something I hadn't considered too much! What will STBX do when she finds out she's not the only one dating other people??? She's always been a jealous one, I just wonder if she realizes she's given up her right to be jealous!

May I add a question to Jacks question???<P>To those of you who are dating (do we need a new board here?) is your strongest urge to call or see this new person when you're feeling particularly hurt? I too, want to do things for the right reasons...I don't want to drag an innocent bystander into my mess of a life...but I do have sort of an offer. <P>It feels almost like vengence to me (sound familiar Jack?) to get involved...or even to consider it. Will we really be "showing them?" (our ws) or will be be purposely hurting another person because we are so damaged?<P>I think too much.<P>allison

Let me be the first to respond!<P>I don't see this as any sort of revenge or hiding place when I've been hurt. I would never have even considered dating, but finally, the reality of my divorce set in. There is really no other outcome at this time. I'm going to be divorced, and that's it...end of story. I know I've said that before, but this time its ME who wants out.<P>So in a way, my priorities have changed. Until this last straw (STBX bringing the OM to meet her mom, and breaking the No Contact rule), my first priority was saving my marriage. Now that I see the flat line on the monitor, I realize it's time to clean up the operating room and get ready for the next patient.<P>I haven't heard the latest from you, Allison, but I'd advise against taking that offer until you're 100 percent certain of YOUR feelings. Do you still love your H...even a little bit? Then don't.<P>I came to the realization that I just don't love my STBX anymore. So its time to move on.<P>By the way, I talked to the new woman on the phone for a while today. Turns out we do have a few things in common. Born only a month apart, married just over 3 years, both marriages ended due to infidelity, she likes bowling...

Allison, <P>I weighed that alot...I did not want to do that or be involved in a vengeful thing - I am a very spiritual person and have look for guidance throught every decision I have made. <BR>though I was tempted at first to have a revenge affair - I resisted - this relationship is not that at all - I am certain.<P>J

Ok, I'm still thinking too much here...<P>Didn't you want to walk away being the one that was above turning to another person. This is one thing that stops me. Please understand that I don't think there is anything wrong with the decisions you guys are making, I think you're very brave, but sometimes for me...I'd like to be able to say that I did it! I didn't need another person to make me feel better...I suppose in a sick kind of way I want to feel like the "good one"..yuck.<P>Man, this moving on thing is almost as confusing as the affair thing. I have not even looked (really!) at another man for years. I was so very attracted to my H that the whole idea is so foreign to me. <P>I guess that I'm not to the point that I can say I don't love my H. The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference...remember that quote? And I certainly do not feel indifferent yet. Hate...sometimes.<P>Jack, I think she sounds wonderful...I think you two should go rent goofy shoes and bowl till your hearts content. I think she may think it's pretty great that you're a DJ, and it is...so that's a good thing.<P>Jeez I hope Dr. Harley and NSR don't read this, they'll kick me out of here for good.<P>allison

cjack,<BR> I'm with K it IS Technically and morally cheating!! In the LONG run this will hurt YOU... WAIT, hear me out with an OPEN mind....<BR> You can't hold your W to certain "Moral" standards and not yourself. Either you walk the walk and talk the talk or you don't.<P> I've been divorced for only 4 months and I'll tell ya, I was DAM proud that when I walked out of the courtroom, I walked out having NEVER been with another woman other than my W in 15 years!! Still haven't. I also glad I didn't set that example for my children. I may have broken MOST of the other vows through stupidity (Love, HONOR and CHERISH) but I did forsake ALL others. Even when W was living with OM. I was LONELY, HURT and needed SOOOO bad to have someone WANT me!! BUT, I KNEW in the LONG run I would have been disappointed in myself.<P><BR> Don't you see? This is the SAME thing your W was probably feeling that made this affair possible!!! I'm not saying it was your fault or that you/we DESERVED it in ANYWAY. But, hey that's why EVERYONE cheats!! <P><BR> Don't be like everyone else and stand strong on your values. The fact that you're here at ALL tells me you're SPECIAL. Don't listen to the people who tell you to give them up. ESPECIALLY your divorced friends (or STBD) here at MB or in a bar of ALL places (who's thinks totally clear half in the wrapper anyway?) . Misery loves company. Just because they couldn't pull their marriages out of the "fire" doesn't mean YOU can't!! I bet NONE of them even HEARD of MB and haven't put forth half the effort you have. You'll feel better about yourself in the end.<BR> Also, you seem like a very intelligent guy. How did you miss that OBVIOUS fishing expedition your W went on telling you it was over with OM? I think you missed her "Reaching" out to see if there was anything there with YOU. WHY ELSE WOULD SHE TELL YOU of all people?????? <BR> You said " I don't love my Wife anymore"<BR> I think you're kidding yourself on that one. And, either you do or you never did. Isn't THAT what we try and convince our WS?<BR> Don't be fooled and get in a fog like your W did. This may be the time you've been praying for and you'll be at the movies with the OW!!<BR> Like they say, "Don't give up on God fifteen minutes before the MIRACLE happens!!!<BR> GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS FRANK

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cjack:<BR><B>Yes, I think I'm cheating, if I view my vows in their strictest sense. Yet I feel as if I'm playing a game where the deck is stacked against me, and I've already lost, so what's wrong with playing the ace I have up my sleeve? I know that's not the right attitude to take, but even I have grown tired of my own admittedly strict interpretation of marriage vows. As for my emotional strength; my heart is pretty well hardened at this point.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>A few months ago you were looking for an explanation for why someone (your wife, specifically) would cheat. I think you've summed it up pretty well yourself.<P>The shoe looks different on the other foot, doesn't it?<P>

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Hold y'er horses! I understand your feelings. I can empathize with your realization that this is probably a rebound thing and you are going into it with your eyes open, but I don't think any of that is reason to go buck wild. If your divorce is going to be final in a few weeks, why not wait until then? A whole lot can change in that time, and if it doesn't, well you will have your integrity and the woman you met will still be just as single and just as cute, but you will likely be more levelheaded about calling her.<P>Although you said your account is closed, there seems to be some room for more deposits because you mentioned that the W said the affair was over. If this was something that did not matter to you, would you have mentioned it at all?<P>Anyway, there aren't many people here who are kicking themselves because they waited too long to pursue someone. There are lots here to are kicking themselves because they didn't wait at all. I'd err in the direction of being conservative.<P>And won't those holidays get sticky when there is a new person around? What do you do with that? Yuck. It's already complicated and yucky. Is a temporary fling worth that? It seems to me to be more mess than it is worth- and she has baggage too? Yuck again.<P>And it is cheating, you know. No matter how you justify it, it's still cheating.<p>[This message has been edited by popeye (edited December 01, 2000).]

Cjack,<BR> I would just like to add my two cents here.I am with Frank all the way with this one!!<BR> Seems like she is reaching out you." I dont know if you care, but it is all over with OM".Now is your time to concentrate on wife,not OW.<BR> Love and Prayers,Beth

Allison,<BR>You said: <<To those of you who are dating (do we need a new board here?)>><P>I'm gonna be harsh. UGH! PHEW! SPIT SPIT GACK HURL<P>I've been there, done that as a BS getting into an outside relationship, regret it more than I can tell you, now that H & I are reconciled!!!!!!! We now both have WS & BS issues and half the time my brain is like a 4 person ping pong tournament as I love my H, remember the OM, hate H's OW.<P>In my JSHO any married spouse dating someone else is certainly a topic for discussion on this board, that's what this whole infidelity forum is about, but seeking out OP is not compatible with MARRIAGE BUILDERS and I *shudder* to think what a forum devoted to the topic would be like. <P>Of course, last year, I would have been all..."oh, my needs have gone unmet for 2 years and I DESERVE this OM. Look what my H has done to me." But it really screwed up what I had worked so hard for with Plan A...just at the point that my H finally "got it" and wanted me, our marriage and family.<P>You know, hindsight is so wonderful. You daters, just try to imagine what you would feel like, falling for this new person...and your spouse wants you back... I didn't think I loved my spouse. I thought my lovebank was an empty abyss. I love him as much today as I did when I began Plan A--over 2 1/2 long years ago, and expect it is getting better as we work through all the crap we've put each other through.<P>I'm not usually so crabby on this subject, but I just heard from the OM & then took the step of honesty to tell my H. NO FUN!!!!!!!!!!<P>Y'think my story is a fluke? I don't.

And I'll second what Lor says! <P>I've seen a lot of the following type of argument:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You've hung in so long as the faithful spouse---and you've done such a good job. The divorce isn't final yet, but you REALLY deserve YOUR OWN HAPPINESS... so go for it. Only YOU know what's best for YOU.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I cringe when I see this crap. It's meant to be "supportive", but the only thing it supports is a bad decision. The reasons:<P>1. It's not over until it's over. Divorce is final. But then...<P>2. It may not even be over then. Most affairs die within 2 years after being "outed". If you're faithful to your marriage, you should be trying to keep that 2 year time frame in mind, and protect YOUR love for YOUR spouse (ex or not) by whatever means necessary (Plan A, Plan B).<P>3. You need to heal from the loss of your spouse. You need to let that love for your ex-spouse really and truly die, so that when you start a new relationship with someone else---if your spouse comes back, you can honestly deal with the situation with no remorse or reservations.<P>And for everyone who thinks "they know better" than these counselors who set arbitrary time lines---you don't. The situation Lor describes, and ones similar to it, happen ALL THE TIME. These guidelines are in place to help emotionally vulnerable people make the right decisions on the way to future "happy and healthy" relationships. Give yourself time to heal!