It is not a given that casual dating is a good thing, even if you are single and even if you are a teenager. There are certainly entire cultures (not to mention the "courtship" movement) that don't support casual dating at all. The Amish, for example, go right from group situations to at least the equivalent of "going steady." There is no "dating" - there is "courtship." I have seen absolutely no evidence that the Amish are more likely to get hurt romantically. And they are sure at a lot lower risk for STD's. <P>

cjack,<P>Yes, you are cheating.<P>Listen to Lor. Listen to K. Listen to the others who are telling you to stop and think about what you are heading into.<P>Honestly, I have trouble believing that your friend who refuses to have any kind of serious relationship is so "genuinely happy." One who never experiences pain can not appreciate pleasure. And there is a great deal to be said for the satisfaction and comfort of a happy and long term relationship.<P>I don't intend to bash anyone here - just MNSHO.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

At the very least, it's playing with fire, I have to admit.<P>Last summer, my husband asked me to come back to him, and while he was angry, abusive, acting so secretively and strangely (duh, he was still in full-blown affair with Miss Kitty, only at that point, he had decided that he couldn't give EITHER of us up) I did. I got out of the army and waited for him to come get me and take my to his over-seas duty station.<P>Not knowing about the affair, only knowing that my husband was cold and hateful towards me, I began a friendship with a man at work. He was a man that I considered dating when my husband left me and I found myself excited about the prospect (after the proposed divorce) but I was even more excited when my husband asked to reconcile. So that was supposed to be the end of that.<P>He was the single father of an adorable little girl. I offered to exchange babysitting with him, as I was alone with my son and needed to get out to the gym more often.<P>Pretty soon, the babysitting turned into dinners at home together, him, me and our kids--in grateful exchange for services. Then we started going out together, movies, bowling, county fairs, swimming--never without the kids--for fun. Soon, it was the norm to either spend all day at his house, or he spend all day at my house. We did everything together--eating, chores, caring for children, fixing cars, playing catch in the backyard--everything that I longed for in my cold, miserable marriage--which I still wanted, by the way.<P>His little girl was like my own child, that's how much I loved her--she and my son looked like twins. It was uncanny. I loved going out in public with my friend and having people fuss over our children. I had to explain, not without a smile, that not only were they not twins, they were not even brother and sister. <P>Of course, I was wearing my wedding ring from my husband. Only people like waitresses and storeclerks would assume that Phil was my husband when they saw us together, not just a tagalong friend. I thought it was fun to play like that.<P>One day I found myself sitting on my couch, tears streaming down my face. I was praying "Please, dear Heavenly Father, I love my husband so much, please help me be strong! Please help me overcome these feelings!" You see, I had fallen madly in love with my friend, and he me, and our children loved each of us as parents. No hanky-panky involved whatsoever. He never touched me. I never touched him (had thought about it, though, admittedly.) We never discussed our relationship, not even to mention that we enjoyed being together even to change the oil in my car or grill hotdogs. Except that he constantly asked me about my husband--what was the real deal with that? To my shame, I had started shading the facts--lying, in other words. It made me sick to admit this to God.<P>It was one of the most difficult things that I ever had to do--walk away from my wonderful friend and his little girl. (I thought about them for a very long time, and if fact, I have even heard from them recently.) But even in light of my failed marriage, after all of this, I am still proud of the fact that I did not succumb to these strong feelings. I can look God in the face and say that I am clean and I did not fail this time.<P>Maybe it's silly to say, and excuse me if I stand on the Christian soapbox that seems to cause such a stir on the D/D board these days, but I think that if it were right and permissable to God, he would have set up the proper circumstances for this relationship to occur--without sin and without fault. Who knows--it still may be? But in the proper time and with authority and permission from Him alone, and not because "I feel" that it is the thing to do.

cjack,<P>It is this simple.According to the law of the<BR>land.<P>Q. What are you the day before your divorce <BR>decree is final?<BR>A. Married<P>Q. What are you the day after your divorce decree is final?<BR>A. Single<P>Q. Am I condemning you for cheating?<BR>A. No, no person can condemn another person.<P>I believe your question was, am I cheating?<BR>Anything else would be a judgement call.<P>gentle

Hi cjack.<P>I gotta post, although you don't know me from a hole in the wall. <P>I am one of the women who left General Questions one year ago to start the Women's Bible study forum. We decided to pray about, rather than ***** about, our marriages <P>(Hi Lor(Lor), Taj).<P>I'm wondering how it is you think you will be able to 'casually date' when you are so touch deprived. I just assume that you are. <P>During my h's 14 month affair he never even looked at me, let alone touch me. I was absolutely TOUCH STARVED. <P>If I had allowed any male, including GODZILLA, to come near me or give me a hug, I would have been in the sack instantly.<P>Keep in mind, please, that I am a 14th generation Mayflower descendant with strict Puritanical values flowing in my skinny waspy veins. I am a 'churchmouse', there every time the doors open.<P>I guess what I am saying is, don't underestimate the power of need. Heal yourself first. <P>Take up hobbies -- rowdy sports, aerobic exercise, vitamins, take a hiking trip, do something challenging that doesn't involve people's emotions. <P>Avoid the bar scene (alcohol is a DEPRESSANT, remember?)--I've been there, done that, and felt really STUPID.<P>...now aren't you glad you asked?<P>lizpearl<P>(who, incidentally, has had her h. back home for 17 months and counting, and he is falling in love! He looks all dewy eyed like when he first met me.)<BR><p>[This message has been edited by alias (edited December 02, 2000).]

A sincere thanks for all the new replies. Seems the consensus is "stop right where you are, dummy!"<P>I'll admit I'm seriously re-considering dating this woman...though I don't regret what I did (dancing/kissing at the bar). I'd like to think I'm allowed a mistake or two. <P>Now, here's some interesting news: I wrote about the night at the bar in my journal. Talked about how good it made me feel to be wanted by an attractive woman, etc. Lots of things I'd rather not share, actually. Anyway, STBX went to the house today to get x-mas decorations for her tree. She snooped, and read my journal. I had a very long (2 hour) phone conversation with her after that (I was at work). She never once mentioned the possibility of reconciling, but I think in the back of her mind, she still has not totally given up on us. I think she needs to go through with the divorce just to get some closure for herself. I think she still wants to have her cake and eat it too. She indicated she wanted to come over and talk tonight. I asked what, if anything, we needed to talk about. She replied "oh, I don't know. Maybe we just need to talk things out, say whatever else we need to say, and maybe get some closure." Hmmmmm....<P>Hmm.....<P>Hmm....<P>Do I stick my hand on the stove one more time, hoping that I won't get burned once again?

Walk on fire my friend...<BR>...you can make it through anything...<BR>...with what you've gone through so far.<P>I haven't enter much into the beginning of your post...<BR>...most know my views... (yes... very conservative)<BR>...and <B>allison</B>... never would I shut you up... each person is entitled to their own opinion...<BR>...I'll always love the person...<BR>......even if I disagree with the point of view.<P> <P>Jim

Hey Cactus! Good to hear from you.<P>I am glad that someone has caught your eye. if you feel the need to be "technical," just hold off another month. Or if you want to see her but not start a "relationship," just keep it friendly. I do not see the poblem with that.<P>You are now admitting that you feel your marriage is over, and your wife, even with the OM stepping out of her life, has yet to say let's try again. It seems to me that the decision has been made.<P>Go out, have fun. But be doubly sure you keep it for laughs for now. You know that you do not want to get emotionally tangled right now. Plus it is not a healthy time for you with the divorce progressing forward. Just be friendly for now. Make your postion clear, though.<P>And if you are in position for intimacy and that is your decision, then use the protection! Protect yourself, you know the routine...<P>Good luck.. I am glad that you are sounding alive and human again! I am proud of ya.<P>B.<P>Things still the same around here.....<P>PS: Wasn't the light parade great? Bethany is just a few lights down from me--got to see it coming right out of the gate! Took my D, H and S under the weather.

Dear cjack,<P> All I know is that you don't start a relationship until the previous one is dead and burried. Otherwise, you bring all the crap from the previous relationship into the new one, and that is not a way to build a lasting relationship. I know because I've done it.<P><BR> God bless you, <P>------------------<BR><P>Gregg

Hi CJack ...<P>Hey ... no matter how good your intentions may be regarding "light" dating, there still is the fact that our needs haven't been met in a very long time (Love Bank deficit) and not only that but our self esteem has been depleted to an all time low. <P>When someone of the opposite sex notices us and likes us we easily feel a Love Bank deposit ... it just happens. <P>I'm not telling you to NOT date and I'm NOT telling you to go forward with dating ... I think you should just be warned. I've done it and believe me when I tell you it was not my intention to feel involved. All I wanted was to feel like I was part of the human race again. It was kind of an experiment to explore if anyone would even consider me a candidate as a a female friend. I had no idea I had this postential to feel connected to someone else, someone of the opposite sex. I was blown away at how easy it was to talk to someone else (as opposed to my H) and feel close to someone this way. Talking about needy! <P>I really feel for you. I know how conflicted you may feel. And you know ... it's all up to you what you want for your life. How you behave and what you can deal with. Just please be good to yourself, there are really good people our there ... people who truly care and mean well. People who can't understand how we (BS) have been mis-treated so terribly and think we are the BEST ... because we are, CJack. We are good people.<P>Love,<BR>Jo

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by burnedspouse:<BR><B>Hey Cactus! Good to hear from you.<P>PS: Wasn't the light parade great? Bethany is just a few lights down from me--got to see it coming right out of the gate! Took my D, H and S under the weather. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually, I was right around the corner! I had to work until 7 on Saturday, and access to our parking garage was actually blocked..my relief almost couldn't make it in time! I missed the parade, though. <P>

Cactus,<P>Well maybe we'll meet at the get together at Allison's at the MB meeting. If not I can rap through the internet waves.<P>Where is your radio building? Near Channel 3 on 7th Ave? But what do they say curiosity is not always a good thing...whatever-- <P>bye!

Dear Cjack,<P>May God bless and enlighten you in your new phase of life whether as married or single. May He bless you with wisdom and discretion and joy and days well lived. May He bless you with love, peace and hope and faith in God above. May your life be full of happy days and fellowship with God. May your parents be delighted at the potential that you are.<P>With God on our side, we cannot lose.<P>Love <BR>weep<p>[This message has been edited by weep (edited December 05, 2000).]

Burnedspouse...we're at 7th street & Missouri in the CSK building. <P>Weep: thanks for the prayers. I really appreciate that.<P>cj

Hey cjack,<P>I think I'll add my 3.5 cents here too (cost of living is higher in Hawaii)....<P>You're cheating if you are still married....in any sense of the word.<P>You're not married when your divorce is final.<P>While I'm not sure where I stand on re-marriage (which would include re-dating), you seem to accept it that once you are divorced you can date. <P>Okay....once you are divorced....date. But not before.<P>As for your marriage....until that divorce is done...anything could happen. Do you put your hand back on the burner? Well, it depends on how "sincerly" hot the burner is...only you can tell if taking a chance on your wife would be worth the try. Alot would depend on how SHE approaches the situation....is she repentent? remorseful? willing to change? willing to work with you? You know all the questions....<BR>I guess for me, even tho my marriage appears totally dead, I would have to give it one more shot....buy who knows how I would feel if faced with that choice....<P>I don't think you need to necessarily hold on to the marriage AFTER the divorce, although I believe that even then, it could be restored. There is a verse in Psalms that says "...blessed is the man who doesn't stnad in the way of sinners..." If she pushes the divorce thru, let her go.<P>And for you, that seems like the time to start dating, etc. when you are ready (even a casual thing).<P>Good luck sorting it all thru...<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR>

What a trip, Cactus! So close--Ever been to Panino's? 7th Ave/Missouri. Love that place.<P>If you want to chat, or whatever here is my email is badg2@juno.com<BR>B