Can you give her a copy of SAA or have a friend give it to her? Do you think that would be an LB? <BR>My H is the ws and I explained the concepts to him and he was interested. That's how we got into recovery actually.

<BR>Some quick points:<P>[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ivory:<BR><B>Breakfast with a friend turned into an opportunity for more insights, as he revealed that he had had an EA many years ago.</B><P>Be very careful who you reveal your situation to....that can be a monster lovebuster if it gets back to your spouse. Sometimes they then feel forced to take actions they might not have otherwise contemplated.<P><B>I filled out the ENQ myself last night, and left one at home for W to fill out, telling her (in a note) that we could compare results later.</B><P>First off, do not ignore the LB questionaire in favor of the ENQ. <P>Secondly, you may have to take then questionaires a number of times over an extended period to expose the real situation.<P>Mike<BR> <P>

EN are simple and almost obvious on one level and subtle and complex at the same time.<P>Of course you will be happier if your needs are met in a relationship. I believe you will also be happier if you are actively meeting your partner's needs.<P>But as that bible verse says that in GIVING that we receive, I believe that with the exception of a truly dysfunctional relationship, the act of giving of oneself in the relationship activates loving feelings more profoundly than what our mate actually gives to us.<P>Does that make any sense at all? It is hard to put into words.<P>So if you look back to the time just before your affair began, can you maybe see reasons why you were distracted or dissatisfied with your life, maybe in ways that had nothing to do with your wife or marriage, and that you retreated into yourslef and stopped GIVING to your marriage...then things snowballed?<P>Just a thought...<P>And on a practical note, be very careful with the EN questioneer. You DON'T want to give her the impression that you think it is her fault that you had the affair. It might make her defensive.

To clear up a few things raised in the above messages...<P>My wife was very pleased about my telling who I told. He is a mutual friend and a counselor in his own right, though in my case he just wants to be a friend.<P>We did not ignore the LBQ. We took that last fall. None of it applied (i.e., no LB'ing going on from her to me or, for the most part, me to her, and still none going on). <P>She was aware of the ENQ even last fall. We both had talked about taking it. There's no way she thinks I am trying to suggest it is her fault; I have made that clear.<P>Retaking the ENQ? I suppose one could but frankly I don't see the point, in terms of revealing EN's that exist right now but were not uncovered by the Q. It would, of course, reveal *changes* in EN's (i.e., EN's that didn't exist when the test last was taken) or would reveal a dropoff in the extent to which she was meeting them at that point as opposed to when the test was previously taken (if that's what you meant). But to expect different results from the ENQ if nothing else was different...I don't follow that.<P>The dysfunctional (me) possibility seems more likely. The giving-receiving theory has a lot going for it, I'm sure. Many people adhere to the do-it-and-it-will-become-true approach.<P>Ivory<P>

I'm not talking about faking it until you make it.<P>I guess what I mean is more of an attitude. Decide what you want to feel and then think toward it.<P>My point with the EN's specifically, was that if you think it is just a matter of your partner pumping you up by meeting your needs and that when you bank is full you will feel love, is not even half of the solution.<P>Admittedly, when one spouse is not even necessary, that is what needs to be done.<P>But I believe as we work to meet our spouses needs, not as a mechanical means to an end, but out of a desire to give, is the real spark that gets the connection going.<P>Looking at it another way, if we wait for feelings to "hit" us, we are waiting with a cold or hardened heart. If we work toward how we want to feel, we have a better chance of warming up as we go and we soften our own heart and through that softening are more able to accept love.<P>Any closer to making sense?

Ivory,<P>I keep coming back to your threads. I think we want to tell you things from our experience that we wished someone had told our WS. It may or may not help...<P>I've shared parts of my story in the hope you would glean something useful. Don't know if you have or not...<P>I've counselled with one of the Harleys. I've read all his books and my d-day (and my h confessed as you did, many here found it in other ways) was Oct '99. So, I've spent almost a year and a half working through this stuff...<P>What did I find in my situation? (As I said, it may or may not apply.)<P>There were some needs I could improve on, but it wasn't that bad. I overdid Harley and blamed myself for his A even though he never blamed me - sort of like where you are.<P>It was very important for me to know the WHY, so the more you can help your W, the better. I think it was maybe 6 months later that I stumbled on what I now believe thanks to a post on this board.<P>The affair had a lot to do with how he felt about himself at the time. He felt like a failure and didn't want to "appear weak" to me. Now, we are both able to be much more open about ourselves with each other.<P>He met someone who thought he was the greatest thing since sliced bread - loads of admiration. The high feelings also helped him forget his problems (that is also where it is very much like an addiction to drugs or alcohol).<P>As to his feelings for me - the first few months after cutting off the contact, he couldn't remember feeling "in-love" with me. He read his own diaries in disbelief.<P>We wanted to rebuild, as much for ourselves as for our young children. This DESIRE carried us through that horrible rollercoaster ride.<P>I think the love feelings, and our marriage is better than ever before, were the result of many things:<P>Yes, I focused more on meeting his needs and let go of the resentment I had built up. The real change, though, started when he got serious about meeting mine. Like you, he had been doing an awful job. Yeah, why didn't I have the A? I agree with FHL, you invest more of yourself, you get out more.<P>Not faking it. His focus was on work even before the A. He rearranged his life and priorities to address all the areas he had neglected. And he was never defensive when I expressed my pain. You too sound like you could handle this well. It is very important.<P>You've made a big mistake. I hope you too can come back and make it better.<P>Another little note. While some BS don't want to even think about sex, ours was great! It helped a lot through my pain and his withdrawal that we were on a second honeymoon.<P>You said she was doing a great job on your needs: we all get rather personal here, this is a biggie. (and I think Harley is wrong about it not being in most women's top 5 - what are they crazy?)

Schizzo, to clear up something...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You said she was doing a great job on your needs<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually, I don't think I said that. She would be <B>willing</B> to meet my needs. She has <B>tried</B> to meet my needs. I have told her several times that no one could have tried harder or been more willing than she has--no one. So the problem is not her willingness or efforts to meet my needs. The problem has to do with my inability to accept, to receive, her efforts, whatever that is rooted in. Self-concept--more accurately, self-anger--is likely going to have a lot to do with explaining this, as you suggested.<P>At the moment there is no opportunity to try the theory of <I>acting</I> as true what I want to <I>be</I> true, since I am not back home and thus we are not around each other. <P>FH, thanks for the good comments.<P>Today is a rainy-gloomy-cloudy-dark day. Everything is tougher on such days.<P>Ivory<p>[This message has been edited by Ivory (edited January 18, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ivory:<BR><B>We did not ignore the LBQ. We took that last fall. None of it applied (i.e., no LB'ing going on from her to me or, for the most part, me to her, and still none going on).</B><P>The reason I said to take them more than once is that as recovery goes on, needs change and some start to be met, and others don't. Also, hopefully, both parties may become more open and honest.<P>It was the fourth LB questionaire my W took (one a month) that suddenly had a huge projectile vomit of issues in it. I think that she was feeling safer about being honest. <P>Have you asked to move back in? I think in your shoes, a lot of people might feel guilty or think their spouse wanted "room". But I suspect that a lot of betrayed spouses would be wondering why the phone isn't ringing, and feeling lonely....<P><BR>Mike

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My ENQ did not reveal anything<BR> of substance in terms of EN's she is not meeting, which concerns me in the sense that one of Harley's main premises is that when the EN's are uncovered and met by the BS, the man and wife can enjoy the love they were<BR> meant to enjoy. If no unmet EN's are uncovered, where does that leave the premise?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My H's did not either...and we had very few LBs between us. This is not unusual in a case like yours, where you say you have been emotionally detached for years in the relationship. I can't say I'e read all your posts, so may be way off in your case, but that was the reason for us. After months of counseling, as the emotional distance lessened, is when needs and unmet needs really became more of an issue.<P>And, a year after the fact, we are doing very well and very much enjoying an emotional closeness we did not have before his EA.<P>Hang in there--<P>Kathi<P>That was a

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kam6318:<BR><B> My H's did not either...and we had very few LBs between us. This is not unusual in a case like yours, where you say you have been emotionally detached for years in the relationship</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah...it is kind of like having frostbite....it doesn't hurt until you start to thaw...<BR>

MikeC2<BR>I agree with you about the ENQ changing as time goes by. I did the Q early on and more recently and they were all completely different this most recent time.<P>Don't have much time to post more, catch ya'll later.<P>Cathy

Ivory,<P>There's something about the tenor of your posts that alludes to an unhappiness isn't just indigenous to your marriage. I pick up on these things because a) I graduated with communications and have some grad work in the field; and b) my H's EMR was related to a psychiatric disorder - Borderline Personality Disorder, along with depression, which he is now being treated for with medication.<P>Have you seen a psychiatrist to rule out the possibility that you might be suffering from depression or another mood disorder? I'm not saying this to flame you, please believe me - but I pick up on a lot of internal happiness, reading between your lines, and it seems, to my mind, to be more in you and your feelings about yourself and your outlook on the situation. <P>Another strong hint you gave me made me think of my H's situation - weather, particularly gloomy weather, exacerbated his condition greatly, to the extent that he was unable to focus. <P>If you haven't seen a psychiatrist, it might be worth it to find out if there is a possibility that clinical depression might come into play here. It's easily treated, and the efforts are worth the reward - my H functions MUCH better, with a combination of therapy and meds.<P>take care,<P>belld<P>P.S. It's gloomy here, too - I take advantage of it to snuggle with my H and the kitties, and it's so comforting to be inside!

I have been treated for depression in the past, including medication. The sexual side effects were unacceptable, and only one seemed to help much anyway. There's one that doesn't have the side effects but it was ineffective with the depressive state. There are probably further approaches, and I might check in again with the psychiatrist. Generally speaking I am high-functioning, present evidence notwithstanding.

Hello Ivory,<P>I wish there were some words of advice I could share to help and comfort you. It is obvious that you are suffering and really trying to do the right things.<P>Regarding the EN and LB questionaires, maybe right now is just not the right time for them. You and your wife are probably still in some stage of shock from what has transpired over the past week, and for you, the past several months. The problems in your relationship began long before that.<P>To really be effective, the questionaires need to be answered without the emotions caused by the affair affecting them unfairly, and by looking back at what STARTED the distancing or withdrawing in the relationship. I think it is really too soon to do that. Wait until things calm down and the two of you have agreed to reconcile and work on the relationship. Concentrate on surviving and helping your wife get over the worst of the hurt right now.<P>Even later, the questionaires might not change much or reveal anything different than you know now. Even the Harleys admit that it is usually not the spouse with the most unmet needs that has an affair, it is often the spouse who puts the least effort into the marriage that betrays it.<P>It would be wonderful if every marriage fit into the MB pattern and thus could be saved by exactly using the strategies espoused on this site and in their books. Even in cases that are "outside the box", I believe MB can be a beneficial tool, but sometimes other factors need to be addressed. Your possible depression is one of those factors.<P>I hope and pray that everything works out for you and you wife so that your marriage can flourish and be a great source of joy for both of you.<P>Peppermint

My H was also high functioning, but depressed. He refused medication for years, but has done really, really well with a great counselor & meditation, believe it or not...

Have you at least told your wife that you want to come home?<P>You may think that she knows that, but she will need many reassurances during this time when she must feel that she has no control of anything.<P>Whether or not you are capable of real empathy during withdrawal, try to put yourself in her shoes and do whatever little things you can to make it easier for her. In case you have no idea what that may include, do what you can to make her feel good about herself in light of the ultimate rejection she is dealing with.

Wessee,<P>Thanks for the words. No, I haven't told my wife that, but I have asked her a couple of times what she'd be looking for in me before I could come home. The first time it was that I had shown some initiative in seeking counseling. (I have.) The second time she talked about how the house was less stressful for her without my moodiness and without her feeling that she had to measure her words. So it now seems that she will need to see the restored me, and who knows how long that will take. Thus, I'm not going to bring it up again. <P>In other ways she is supportive; in this way she's doing what she wants, and as a highly educated and forthright person, there is no reason to think this isn't something thought through. Even if it isn't, then we'll have to wait until emotions subside--if that's what's driving her actions--to see what's next. Meanwhile, the practical facts are motels are expensive--even the local Motel 6 can be $820/month even on a weekly rate. <P>I am actively looking for longer-term lodging and also will have to find regular employment (I am self-employed) since I presume I will be on m own economy now. In many ways we will be living as if separated. Those immediate pressures obscure longer-term thinking and goal-thinking for the present, and also take a little of the sheen off any feelings of movement her direction. Meanwhile, I now can diagram for you the floor plan of Barnes and Nobles, which is the alternative to the pictureless walls of Motel 6!<P>Ivory

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ivory:<BR><B>Thus, I'm not going to bring it up again.</B><P>If you want to restore your marriage, you should beg, plead, promise, cry or whatever you have to do to get back in the house where your Plan A can have some effect.<P>If you want to restore your marriage, this action would be intuitive. I'm sure your wife is noting the absence of that desire by you to be close to her.<P>People say that informing a spouse of an affair is akin to informing them of the death of their child. This analogy is instructive in one way -- it shows the need for details and honesty. <P>But ask yourself, would you inform your spouse of the death of a child and then say "Well, I'll give you a call in a couple of days..."<P>Ivory, I'm surprised that you haven't reported any contact with the OW. I find it hard to believe that she wouldn't be bouncing off the walls wondering if her life is in danger or whatever.<P>Mike<P>

Mike,<P>I don't understand the reference to Plan A. I thought Plan A was for when WS had not stopped contact with OP. That's not the case here.<P>I did let OW know that everything was OK with regard to a possible lynch mob and I informed W that I did. W seems to realize that OW is not the issue. Two nights ago we had a fairly long talk about things, including my feelings for OW then and now.<P>W doesn't want the moodiness, apparently, and with withdrawal comes moodiness, so what's the point of begging, pleading, and everything else you said? We are not children. I could "say" that I would "try my best," but everytime she saw me looking wistfully out the window she'd never really know if I was pining for OW or enjoying a pretty songbird. <P>I think she's made her point pretty clear, and--again, taking the honesty part BOTH ways---I'm not going to promise some behavior I'm not sure I can deliver. There are times, I'll admit, when it feels like being kicked while down but I don't have the right to say that (although I just did), since I created the original circumstances. Let's put it this way: confessing may have its benefits, but they show up according to their own timetable and manner. The "positive" side hasn't struck all that much just yet.<P>Ivory<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Ivory (edited January 20, 2001).]

Ivory,<P>I sincerely hope that there will be zero contact between you & OW in the future. You need to get back in your house so that your wife can observe (via Plan A & the POJA) that you are willing to restore your marriage.<P>I apologize ahead if I'm wrong, but from reading your posts, I get the feeling that your heart isn't 100% into this.