BTW, I agreed with the part about how it came home to me that some women can be so cruel.<P>Nellie - I've read many times how hard this is on you and I hope you can upgrade your job skills and provide without the bum.<P>It seems like if we as BS often suffer from low self-esteem, how low must the OW feel to latch on to a MM? So I do have a tad of compassion for mine. As to Nellie's OW, she must feel really low to WANT an unemployed, irresponsible bum. (Or did she do this to him? I remember he used to work pretty well.)<P>alias, you said:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>PLEASE, try to speak for her. I know she isn't a piece of trash, what would that say about my husband's taste in women?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's very interesting. While selfish and immoral, I found that neither OW were "trash", and I too was somewhat relieved he at least showed some taste. I COULD HAVE been friends with her. Not now, of course.<P>Is that weird to feel relieved? I also found some relief in that he was himself - he didn't ever have anything negative to say about me, and he even tried to convert her to Christianity.<P>

schizzo,<P>Yes, this transformation occurred after he started living with the OW. My H had never been irresponsible. He had only be out of a job for about a month and a half during the 24 years we were together, and even then he willingly took a minimum wage, physically demanding job with awful hours to tide us over. <P>It actually isn't really a case of upgrading my job skills. I earn a pretty good salary, good enough that finding a better job is not a piece of cake. I am looking for a full-time job, but it will be terribly difficult with four kids at home, including one with special needs, and absolutely no one as back-up. I recently read in the paper that in this area, in order to support a family of 4 living in a house of average rent, a person earning minimum wage would have to work well over 100 hours a week!

Hi Alias,<P>I am an OW, and would like to try to answer your questions, to help if I can. I lurk here but have never posted before, out of respect. So, this is at the risk of being blasted, but I'm trying to be honest, if it can help...<P>I do think of his wife, and wierd as it may sound - unbelievable - I DO care and want her not to be hurt.<P>This also is not something typical for me, of me. I have always tried to live my life by being a good person, doing the right thing, but this one man was someone who had been very special to me from my past, not just some married man I met, if you can understand.<P>I do not see this as some kind of game or contest, it's definately not where I am just out to prove I can "get him" or whatever. From what I've read lurking on boards for betrayed spouses it is very hard for them to understand that this is generally not about THEM for the OP. I didn't enter into this situation BECAUSE he was married, or to prove anything, or to get some kind of sick ego statisfaction in regards to her.<P>I actually tend to be more protective as far as her feelings and her finding out than he is, possibly because I am a woman because I know he does care about her.<P>It's truly not about her at all for me, in any kind of motivation as you suggest. It is difficult for me because I do love him very much and I struggle with that. It is more comparable to being placed in a situation between someone you know and care about deeply and someone you do not know. Not a comfortable choice, and I'm not saying it's the right one, I'm not defending that, but only trying to give you more honest perspective. Do I walk away from someone I love and hurt him for someone I do not and who does not know me? Certainly that would be the right and moral thing, but I think this is closer to what OW's go through. It's not generally motivated by wanting to hurt some wife you don't know just for the sport of it, or to "get" some man away from another woman just because you think it's fun.<P>Alonealot said it well too, I think. I do care about his wife, I do want her not to be hurt, and I do hope this ends in a way that that is possible. I do care about marriage and family, it does matter to me (does that sound rediculous coming from me?). I do not want his family torn apart because of me, I couldn't bear that.<P>And yes, before you ask, I did try to influence him to work on his marriage, did try to advise him. As silly as it sounds there have been times when he's vented a bit to me (only rarely) and I have taken her side, trying to explain how it might be from her point of view, how he could perhaps react better.<P>It's all so twisted and difficult. Love sometimes leads us to doing dumb things and making bad choices, as well as hanging on too long. It's just hard to walk away from someone you love who does love you too, even when he loves someone else as well and there is no real future.<P>Ok, be easy on me, I truly do just want to help, if I can even in a small way.<P>Juanita

Juanita, <P>If he really "loved" you, then he would not be using you. If he really loved his wife, then he would not be betraying her. I think that the one that he really "loves" is himself.<P>I think it is interesting how OP twist the word "love" to mean what they want. Love is not something you feel. It's not something that you say. It's something that you actively do. It is selfless and giving. It doesn't seek it's own needs. It is a promise and a commitment that one holds to, no matter what. It's sacrifice. It's esteeming one's children enough to do what's right for them. It's self-respect and respect for others.<P>It's not a warm fuzzy or jungle animal passion. You can concoct that out of anywhere, your own fantasies. Life is not a Harlequin romance.

alone alot - thank you for your words. In reading it I could almost imagine the OW involved with my H having written it. It is her style and with her level of eloquence.<BR>I have often wondered what she would say about the A now and somehow your post has answered that question. <P>I have never really hated her, just questioned how she could care about my H and care so little for the one thing in his life that meant most to him-his family. But I understand that sometimes reality has a hard time competing when strong emotions are involved. I was also angry at my H because from the things that he told me, the OW and I could have become great friends having so many things in our lives in common. I feel as if he/they robbed us of that. And who knows perhaps the two of us could have helped each other...but that is something now that I will never know.<P>Consider yourself blessed that you could stand back and really discover the how and whys the A took place. My wish for you is that you will find yourself and discover the things in life that can truly make you happy and surround yourself with them. In doing so you will find peace.

Bernzini you say "Love is not something you feel. It's not something that you say. It's something that you actively do. It is selfless and giving. It doesn't seek it's own needs. It is a promise and a commitment that one holds to, no matter what. It's sacrifice. It's esteeming one's children enough to do what's right for them. It's self-respect and respect for others. It's not a warm fuzzy or jungle animal passion. You can concoct that out of anywhere, your own fantasies. Life is not a Harlequin romance<P>You are right and I agree with you. I do know what real love is, and you put it very well.<P>I posted only in the sincere hope that what I had to share might be of some small or partial help to someone else. Alias asked some sincere questions, and I felt she deserved to hear some sincere attempts to answer them, so I tried for her. <P>Thanks for sharing your thoughts about love, you are correct I believe and perhaps seeing this put so well from you may be helpful to someone.<P>Juanita<P><p>[This message has been edited by Juanita (edited January 24, 2001).]

Juanita - I genuinely thank you for your insight. I can't say that I understand...I might be able to empathize, but I will not judge. Nah, I'll save the brunt of my temper for my H's XOW Actually, she is the stereotypical "stalker" OW, who pursued MM for what she thought they could give her. I will <B>never</B> respect that kind of woman.<P>I hope that one day you'll find true happiness...no woman on this planet should have to share a man. I don't care if there are more women than men! And when you do, maybe you can come back for the fabulous "marriage coaching" that they offer here. Bonne chance!

My relationship with my H started off as close to my being an OW as it could get - only I didn't know it. I knew that H was living with another woman, but he told that they'd broken up and were staying together to complete the lease. It wasn't too impossible to believe, as it's very difficult to find a place to live in this city - takes 3-6 months. Also, I'd had single friends who were still living with their X-BFs for the same reason. I don't know why other big red warning flags didn't fly by - in retrospect, they were all there (always called on his cell phone, had a private p.o. box, etc.) But I never thought that another human was capable of lying. Also, at the time, we were just "dating," and I didn't think it would turn into anything serious, to be honest. We didn't have the level of intensity in our relationship or in the frequency that we saw each other that I should have known a lot about H's personal life. <P>As it turned out, to H's mind, they *had* broken up - too bad he forgot to tell his fiancee about it. She still thought that they were engaged and everything was fine. I later found out after H and I were married that while we were seeing each other, H went to his fiancee's parents and asked them for her hand in marriage. (!!!)<P>I found all of this out, in great detail, too late. By the time she had found out about "us" (mind you, all of this transpired when I didn't even know about it) and the whole thing blew up in my face, I was already committed - engaged - to a man that I should have never been committed to. <P>How do I feel about it?<P>I wish I would have known from the start, so I could have called his fiancee up and told her. I think about when we first met, and how he kissed me at a party - she was in the same house in a different room, d*mn his hide! - and I want to block it all out. I felt like scum. I felt dirty and diseased. I felt as though I'd sacrificed every principle I'd ever believed in. I cried a lot, thinking about the way she (ex-fiancee) must have felt. I later wrote a heartfelt apology letter to her, telling her my side of the story and offering to answer any questions she had. I apologized for my H, because I knew he'd never do it. I can't even think about when I first met and started "dating" my H, because it makes me feel ill. It's like a big joke to me, nothing about it is real. For the longest time, after the shock wore off and the newness of our marriage wore off, I found that I disrespected him. He just didn't command the same loyalty as a man who had entered into a relationship clear and free. <P>All of those things that Pittman writes about in "Private Lies?" Very true. I didn't realize how much we fit into that nook of couples who don't have a chance in h*ll until I read that book. It's almost impossible to build a marriage on deceit. H lost almost all of his friends, and I lost a lot of mine, after the truth came out. H got fired because his boss knew his ex-fiancee, and they worked at the same place, and it was too hard for his boss to have both working there. Obviously, he was going to fire the cheater. H lies when people ask how we met, and I just say that it's too painful for me to discuss. We can never tell our children how we met - not really, not without lying to them. Of course, we got involved too quickly, and H didn't have time to sort things through. So when the same dynamic emerged in our marriage that had emerged in his engagement, he sulked, pouted, got angry, blamed me. He never really looked to see why *he* was to blame.<P>You never have "clean" memories of your courtship - well, H does, but I do not.<P>Of course, I never trusted him, either - and guess what? I was right not to trust him, he later had an EMR on me. And the way he did it was eerily familiar - told the XOW that we were separated and getting a divorce, trading business cards, seeing her at lunch at out of the way places ... the same d*mned thing, all over again. He even met her under similar circumstances. <P>So if you ask me how I felt about my part in it? Sick. Sick, because I had NO choice and NO real knowledge. Sick, because I didn't get a chance to tell his fiancee when she should have known. If I'd have known all of the details, I am utterly sure that any passion or interest I felt for my H would have quickly turned to revulsion.<P>I hope that his ex-fiancee found out about H's EMR, and that she kicks up her heels. I hope that the thought of my misery and pain gives her some measure of satisfaction and closure. Even for my inadvertant participation, I deserve it. I should have been wiser and not so young and trusting. I should have asked more questions and acted like a responsible adult by telling her.<P>I know that I digressed, but that's the honest truth.<P>belld

Carolina Belle, thank you for your kind words.<P>I know what you mean about the type person your husband's XOW is, I have known people like that and can't respect them either. The affair was horrible enough no doubt. I hope that doesn't sound hypocritical coming from me. Thanks for not judging me or assuming I was of that caliber, and for your empathy (or the attempt if you couldn't quite make it ). I appreciate your generosity of spirit.<P>Even now I've learned lurking here, it's a good place, with good people. Hopefully it will help me have an even better chance for a future healthy relationship with someone special.<P>Wishing you the best <P>Juanita

What I don't understand is, why, if one knows that the affair is wrong and has the intelligence and the understanding that they are hurting someone (yes, someone they don't know) why do they keep on? I mean, if someone gives you a toadstool sandwich, tells you it's a snickers bar, and you know it's a toadstool sandwich--do you take a bite out it because you're addicted to snickers bars? Please don't tell me it's an addiction. I just don't buy it anymore.<P>Maybe I was a bit nasty with my reply earlier. I am having a hard time controlling my temper these days, and maybe I should leave the board for a while until I can think clearly. I think that I will do that, because, although I have shown a lot of sympathy and forgiviness toward wayward spouses in the past since I have started looking at this board, I have a hard time doing that now.<P>I am no better than anyone else, let me assure you. I once had an EA with a very single young man in my first marriage, callously hurting my husband. However, as many times as I was propositioned by married men to fool around, never, ever could I hurt another woman by messing with her husband. (Some of these would have even been tempting under other circumstances, but by the simple fact that he was married and seeking additional affection really quite disgusted me out of having anything to do with him.)<P>But, you see, in the name of "love," my husband abandoned me and our little boy. That's one thing. I have him to blame.<P>But OW knew what the deal was all along. Her idea of "encouraging" my husband to return to me was to ask him questions like "Are you SURE that you are really happy, nanouscka?" or "You haven't asked my for sex lately, it must be going well with you and your wife." That's so nice of her to think of me. (I saw her e-mails.)<P>No, she does not "know" me. If she did, she would probably know the pain and heartache that my husband has put me through for the last 7 years with his verbal abuse and temper tantrums and jealousy--yet I loved him unconditionally and stood by him--until he cheated on me. If she knew me, she would know that I am a very good person, (with faults) a good mother, a good citizen, a good friend. She would know how easy-going I am. She would know how proud I am of my mixed heritage, how I loved my career (that I gave up to be with my husband) how delighted I am in my church, and how VERY MUCH I LOVE MY HUSBAND--still. <P>I have the distinct feeling that she does not WANT to know me. It makes it so much easier for her to carry on with my husband. In fact, I really don't think she knows my husband that well for that matter--if she did, she'd tell him to get his act together, too, and then he'd just go running to someone else.<P>(See, it is so much easier for a man to run off to another woman who knows him marginally, who praises and pampers and pities him for only the person she sees on a limited basis, than for him to try to work on himself and to put some effort into improving himself and his relationship.)<P>Maybe I will leave the board, because I am getting a bit nasty. But in the meantime--I am asking WHY???? when you know that a man has a woman and children at home and you know that they are crying over him? What motivates you to hang on to him? I couldn't. I wouldn't--once again, I am not saying that I am better than anyone else. But I do know, after a little trial and error, what love really is--and it is not glomming onto a married man for whatever reason. WHY?????

I have less trouble understanding OW like the slug than I do OW like Juanita (not a bash at all, just an honest observation), basically for the same reasons that Bernzini has cited. And I sure find it way easier to despise OW like the slug than I do OW like Juanita...<P>I have been asked why I despise the slug and don't take out my hurt on my husband - well, lots of reasons there, and among them is the simple fact that I never made any vows to the slug. And another very important reason is because she has said some very ugly and mean things to me, based on the things my husband said (typical WS stuff: She nags me, she doesn't clean the house, she never lets me do what I want), and this after attempting to physically assault me once, and placing numerous hang up calls to my home for several months.<P>My husband is not her first married man - members of her own family know her as a selfish b*tch - and even the trashiest people in town think she is a pig. She had the nerve to write to me in an email "Don't you know that poem 'If you love something set it free'?" (I doubt it was that well-written - she is also dumb as a rock and as attractive as a bulldog's butt).<P>I don't even have the "comfort" that he found someone better than me - she is a horrible, ugly, disgusting person.<P>Wow ... I think I digressed a bit. Anyhow, the OW in my life never thought of anyone but herself, never believed her involvement with my husband was wrong - and still does not. I am to the point where I will just be happy when he leaves her in the gutter where she belongs - even if he doesn't come back to me.<P>Bitter? Only when I talk about it. <P>However, let me say one thing before I go: Juanita, if you are still reading... you sound like a wonderful person. And you sound as if you think you love this man very much. I will not even argue that you might love him. But you are not loving yourself the way you should if you can continue being the Other Woman. Statistically, he is NOT at all likely to leave his wife for you. One day, the wife WILL find out (she probably has her suspicions even now - most of us had them before we actually found out about our spouse's affairs), and you will have hurt her whether it was ever your intention to or not. As a matter of fact, you have already hurt her by dividing her husband's mind and heart with your presence in his life. You may not have even known he was married when the affair started, but as soon as you found out about it, you became guilty.<P>The only solution for YOU is to get out. He does not love you, or he would not expect you to continue in this charade of a relationship. At the moment, he does not love his wife as he should, either, or he would not continue in the charade himself. And, neither of you love yourselves, or you would have too much pride, dignity and self-respect to continue the hurtful game you are playing. It's not real, and the only real thing you will ever have from it is pain.<P>You sound like a wonderful person who is caught up in a nasty situation. And you are in control, Juanita. You can be wonderful and OUT of that situation by simply walking away and never looking back.<P>I hope you join us again as an EX OW.<BR><P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

WOW,<P>I actually started a forest fire!<P>To the other BS who posted:<P>You know what it feels like to have your heart ripped out...may you soon join me in having your WS say as mine did this week, "If it takes the rest of my life, I will make this up to you. Please don't leave me till I've spent forever making it right."<P>I've promised to give him forever to make it right, with the caveat that IF he ever so much as tells a white lie about partying or his whereabouts...it's done. (Fool me once...etc.etc.)<P>To the very generous OW's who took the time to write:<P>You have helped me a great deal. I don't mean I am planning to invite her to tea or anything, but I don't think I'll have any more nightmares involving whacking her with an ax. I used to post as Liz Smith:<P>"Lizzie Smith took an ax, and gave the OW 30 whacks".<P>I think I may be getting over this now, though I'd still like to KNOW that she is in treatment. (She has had three affairs with married co-workers).<P>Thank you for your honesty and the time you took to post.<P>Someday, perhaps soon, maybe I'll have a whole day pass without tears or anger. It's been 19 months since D-day.<P>thanks again,<BR>lizpearl<BR><p>[This message has been edited by alias (edited January 25, 2001).]

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After nearly two years I now have some compassion for OW. Have never met her but have mutual "friends" and have seenphoto of her and read one of her letters to H. I am intrigued. She is young (20-25 years younger than H), smart (has an MBA), single; and wrote to h about how she knows he cares for me and respects me and how she grieves about the hurt he and she have caused me. i used to think "what would she know". But now i realise h has defintiely lied to her - probably as much as he has lied to me - sometimes by sins of omission - but lying nevertheless. <P>There are two things that i find totally impossible to understand:<P>(1) He has bought her a number of presents - and each time I know of they could have been for me!! - jewellery from the antique shop where he has (and still does) buy jewellery for me; CDs of my favourite music and singers; a handbag like he bought me - he actually bought the two at once!!- an o'seas trip to our favourite place. Why? maybe i have just been traded in for a newer model. In my darkest hours I have thought of ringing her and telling her tis; surely it would hurt her as much as it confuses me.<P>(2) While the A has been in full swing he invites me to functions and things - including new years eve, including an overnight visit with some friends, including to a favourite restaurant (where I new he had been with her but he told me it was new and he realy wanted to share it with me. What is OW thinking/doing when he is out with me; did he just put her on hold? It must have hurt her ?<P>Even now that I am trying to be in Plan B he has invited me to do things with him and phones me regularly - today he rang to say eldest son (from previous marriage) has just keft for o/seas (to live) and how he is sad and miserable. Got pretty short response from me so no doubt will head off to OW for comfort but i know if I had said "come around for a cup of coffee" he would have been here in a flash.<P>He has told me often she is "not important" and that they have "no long term future together" - but he has never been prepared to end and maintain no contact with her. It must be terribly terribly hard for her - waiting and never knowing what next for her. Frankly, I do not know why she hangs in there. I dont like being mein all of this but i wouldnt want to be her either.<P>R

I too felt truly hurt by the OW and believed in the sisterhood. I agree with someone who posted earlier who stated that woman are cruelier than men during this time. Not all woman are the same, of course, and she made no vow to me but she made one to her husband that she broke. <P>I think the OW in my case was exceptionaly cruel and I want to ask the other OW on her their opinion; here goes:<P>- at the office Christmas party (before I knew about them) she came over and introduced herself as my husband's friend, sat and talked to me, like we were long lost buddies (My h never went near her and her husband)<P>-she spent the weekend in my home when I was out of town (used my makeup)<P>-she called my home when her husband threw her out after she got caught, telling my H - it was his fault and he needed to fix it<P>-she parked her car where I could see it from my house, even after I asked her not to<P>-she called my home and asked for my husband most of the times he was visiting the kids<P>-she went back to her husband in one week and continued to sleep with mine for three months<P>-she had my husband fired after he decided to go back to his family<P>-she kept his cell phone for seven months after they broke up<P>I am stuck on how cruel this woman was and maybe I need reassurance that she was exceptionally cruel but any opinions would be appreciated<BR>