Hi Rick37,<BR>Excuses as to why this marriage won't work flow from her mouth like water over a dam. It doesn't matter what I say or do. She uses it to justify her decision. If I said have a nice day...she would tell me that I am trying to control her! As far as fighting for the marriage...I feel like Mohamed Ali against Joe Frasier. Ali came out on top, but boy was it a long battle. <P>It is so frustrating to see her just throwing 12 years away and with all my efforts not seeing any improvement. Patience is not one of my better virtues and I am really trying to learn. <P>There seems to be a plethora of information out there and I would like to read some stuff on people that have actually made it through this. It might be a moral booster if you know what I mean.<P>Until then, I appreciate all of you who have posted to me. It makes a world of difference in a life that is wrecked by turmoil. Thanks a bunch! Any little bit helps><BR>Mike

mbtrk - remember what you said, "It seems as though my wife just can't make up her mind." You are exactly right! This explains the illogical thought processes you're witnessing and her contradictory actions. Look at her as if she's temporarily insane and nothing she says has meaning. It would be helpful for us BSers if they just spoke a different language we can't understand during this time - then we wouldn't have to pay attention to it.<P>Settle down, read, talk to Steve, and don't try to rush things. You are the only sane one at the moment and you have a big responsibility to realize that and maintain your emotions. Believe it or not, you have the upper hand because you know what's going on and you have Steve and us to keep you on the straight and narrow.<P>Hang in there and stand tall. You're on the high moral ground.<P>WAT

Hi WAT,<BR>I try to stay calm and focussed. I miss her company terribly. Actually I don't miss the new person, I miss the old person that I used to know. Do they still do frontal labotomys in the US??? I have a prime candidate. <P>I love my wife dearly as I am sure all of the other BS ers here love their spouses. That's why we are here. I would love to read some success stories. It might make things easier to deal with. <P>Does an EA have the same impact on a spouse as a PA??? Do they behave the same irrational way? Maybe it's worse. How long do they hold on after they find out it's over.<P>My wife told me about her love for this guy 2 months ago. 3 weeks ago she said that he wasn't going to leave his wife. Could she still be holding onm to the hope that he will? She keeps telling me that this guy has nothing to do with why she is seeking a divorce. It is just a simptom of a bad marriage, and therefore our marriage should be ended. Ya right....I believe that!???<BR>It's nice to know thatI have friends who can keep me in line! Thanks a bunch!<BR>Mike

She is saying all the typical things. Truth is, the affair is a symptom of problems in a marriage, but WSs seem to compartmentalize thes into two different problems. Any problems in the marriage take on immense proportions in order for the WS to justify the affair, hence, they're not exactly two distinct problems.<P>I'm a guy, but from what I've read, an EA for a woman is just as bad, if not worse, than a PA. Women are more apt to seek romance and develope deeper emotional bonds. Read SAA and get input from the ladies on the board for this.<P>Be wary of anything your wife says about OM's intentions. If it's true he has no intention of leaving his wife - good for you. But she could be trying to change his mind. This may tempt you to contact OM's wife to spill the beans. Don't do this without advice from Steve. An action like this can go either way - scare the OM into reality, or cause him to change his mind about leaving. You can't control how OM's wife will react.<P>Good luck,<BR>WAT

Hey WAT,<BR>I have one chapter left in SAA and have yet to begin HSHN. I have read lovebusters and have an appointment with Steve tomorrow. <P>If I could only get my wife to agree to counceling with Steve, and do it with an open mind, I know that we could put things back together. Getting her to do that is impossible right now. Does anyone have any ideas on how that can be accomplished?<P>I guess the best plan of action is to giver her some space and just try to spend as much time with her and the kids as possible. I pray every day that she soon realizes that the grass is not always greener on the other side.<BR>Mike

mbtrk - it may be a long time before she's willing to go to counseling. First she has to decide she wants to work on the marriage. My wife refuses counseling because she doesn't see the possibility of ever falling in love with me again. She's 8 months in to her "revelation" (she denies an affair).<P>Don't push her for counseling. Steve may ask you to ask her if she'll talk to him about you - not the affair, not your relationship. My wife did agree to do this, but nothing since.<P>The way to get her into counseling is to to Plan A. Work on your improvements, don't LB, don't smother, be supportive, tell her you love her from time to time, follow Steve's advice - and then wait. The affair will end. You need to be ready to take your rightful spot.<P>WAT

Hey Wat,<BR>Have you been doing plan A for 8 months? That seems like such a long time to hold on to hope. Does your wife show any signs of coming around? Do you get to spend any time with her?<P>I think the hardest part of all this is that I thought that we were pretty good together. She was my best friend. I enjoyed doing things with her. Now it's like she will do things with the kids and me once in a while, but won't do anything alone with me. How do you get to that point, which is one of the major things that you are supposed to do when trying to rebuild love...spend time together.<P>I guess that I will have to settle for time with her and the kids. <P>I hope that you are doing OK as I really don't know your whole story. If I can be of help to you let me know. You certainly have been a big help to me!<BR>Mike

I've been Plan A'ing thw whole time, although I didn't know it at first. I didn't stumble onto thie site until September - then I found out I was pretty much already doing Plan A, but I did need to make some adjustments.<P>Does she show signs of coming around? Sometimes. Mostly non-commital as they all seem to be. My wife is one that has never admitted an affair, although one time she did tell me she was in love with OM. I honestly don't know the current state of the affair, and frankly, I don't think about it much. I've made my Plan A improvements, she knows it, I have a great relationship with my son, and I still love my wife. I'm willing to wait longer for her to get her brains back from the aliens. Our problem is linked to the death of our younger son in Aug. 99, about ten months before the onset of the affair, so I feel I know a little more about the physiology of this one, and I'm willing to wait longer than some, maybe, because I know my wife is still suffering unresolved grief. She is a very troubled woman and I will not abandon her in this state.<P>The time we spend together has varied with where we are on the roller coaster. Sometimes she can't stand to be around me, other times she doesn't mind. I don't think she ever WANTS to be around me. The only EN I meet of hers is being a father to our son and she knows I do a good job. This is my ace in the hole. We lost a son. I believe our remaining son will be what eventually brings her back, if she comes back at all.<P>Plan A for me has given me a better perspective on my life, and I will come out of this a better person - with or without my wife.<P>WAT

Hi Wat,<BR>I sure can relate to your story. My wife has a lot of unresolved issues that go back beyond our relationship. She lost 2 siblings over 4 months. She never came to terms with that. I think it has something to do with her ability to fully commit in a relationship.But what do I know. You must have to have nerves of steel in order to hang in that long...as I'm sure that I will find out. I have 2 children that are quite young and my wife says that I am the best father ever. <P>I'm hoping that this is my ace also. She likes to have dinner with the kids and me( probably just the kids) but I'll take what I can get right now. This talk about divorce is very troubling because she doesn't seem to see any other way out or around our problems. I sure hope that things get better soon, but I'm not optimistic at this point in time. <P>Like you, I would do anything to rebuild our relationship if she would only coopperate. Like everyone here says time, patience, and don't panic. It seems a lot easier said than done!<P>Hang in there my friend!<BR>later,<BR>Mike

Hi All,<BR>Just venting a bit this morning. My wife called last night to talk to the kids before bed. She then said that she wanted to talk to me. As usual Igot sucked in and she started giving me crap about who I can talk to and who I can't. She said that I am not to talk to her family. I said isn't that up to them to decide. (They are very supportive of me and not of her right now.)So I tried to validate her feelings and be nice and she got very angry so I told her I had to get the kids to bed. End of conversation until the phone rang at 11:00 pm. It was her again, but I let the machine get it. I really am trying not to fight with her. I told her the other day that if she wants a divorce she is going to have to do it herself, because I don't want it. One of us has got to fight for this marriage and it looks like it's me right now! <BR>Her response was that she is doing what's right for her and can't understand why people can't understand that. IT'S BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN ABDUCTED BY ALIENS!!!! LOL<BR>Anyway...it looks like the battle plans will be drawn up with Steve today and I am committed to this for a while anyway and hope with all my heart that my efforts don't go un-noticed. Thanks to all who have helped...I have a feeling that I'm going to need a lot more before this is all over.<BR>Mike

Hi All,<BR>I had my second chat with Steve this afternoon. It went well. I now have a better idea of what it is I'm supposed to be doing. I'm supposed to try to get the W to set up an appointment with him so that he can "get the other side" of the story. I hope that she will agree. Then she may like him and agree to joint counciling. I doubt it, but it is something to wish for <P>It's time to really start Plan A ing my butt off and let her see the man that I really am. I just have a feeling that knowing my wife that this is not going to be easy. She is a feeler and says that there is no way that you can change the way someones heart feels. it's gonna be a long road ahead.<P>I know that you all will keep me on track as I have seen the caring way you all have responded already. And I'm sure that I will have to rely on you even more in the coming weeks. I will say my prayers for all of you and keep you in my thoughts as I begin my journey through h*** that so many of you have been on already.<P>Thanks again<BR>~Mike~

Good morning everyone,<BR>My wife came to the house this morning as I was leaving for work. SHe comes to get the kids off to school. Well she was mad at me because he mother had told her that she was being selfish basically and now she is blaming me for talking to her mother. <P>She said you need to understand that this relationship is over...O.V.E.R. and if you don't get it then I am going to file for divorce today!!! My response was that I was sorry that she felt that that was the only solution to the problem. <P>She said that I am not in love with you and there is nothing that can bring that back. It's over.<P>So right now I have this huge pit in my stomach and feel as though she is being totally irrational...which she probably is.<P>How do you deal with that mentality. It would be easier if she was abducted by aliens...<BR>Mike

Mike -<P>I hope you don't mind me busting in on this thread, but I think it would be a good idea for your wife to talk to Steve. My H and I never went for any counseling, but maybe if she can talk to Steve - that would help her to see the possibilities.<P>As a former WS, I know how difficult it is for you to understand your wife right now. From my side of things, I've been where your wife is right now. Again, my H and I never really talked - seriously - about divorce, but I was at a point where I didn't know if I loved my H or not - I just thought our marriage had gone sour and there was "no hope" of turning things around.<P>But at one time, your wife loved you enough to marry you and to have children with you. You don't just do all that because it's what is expected - you have to have some amount of love for the person. When I married my H, I loved him completely. He may have had a few little faults, but I basically loved him and that's why we got married. Somewhere along the line, we took each other for granted, weren't meeting each others' needs - whatever you want to call it, we basically drifted aprt instead of "grew together."<P>I, like your wife, thought that the love was gone, that I would never love my H again like I did when we were first married. The thing that I came to realize - and why I think counseling might help your wife - is that if two people who at one time loved each other enough to get married can grow apart - isn't it possible that they can grow closer? I think if you put it in linear terms - your wife is only seeing one direction "downhill." But things - while they may be going downhill and it may have even reached the bottom - you can still go back up. When I was "in the fog," I thought there was only one direction, too. But, now, I have a totally different perspective, but a lot of it came from having hope that things COULD be different.<P>I think a lot of times the WS looks for signs or feelings to pop back just as fast as they "lost them" (or sometimes even quicker). I guess my point is, that it probably took your wife a while to "fall out of love with you," and it will probably take some time for her to "fall back in love with you" - to "feel it in her heart" as she said.<P>For me, I was just waiting for the feelings to return first - and then I would willing to put in some effort. In a way, I guess I felt stuck - I really didn't want divorce to be an option - because I did love my H - if only as a friend. We don't have any kids, so I know that if we got divorced - we would probably never remain friends - as much as we would like to try - I've been in other relationships prior to getting married - and it's just too difficult to remain friends when there is so much hurt involved.<P>And, I think there would be hurt involved, because my H wouldn't have wanted to get divorced. While I might have wanted it and thought it best, my H would have always struggled with that decision - he would have done it to make me happy, but in his heart, I don't think he could have lived with that decision.<P>So, bottom line, I think you and your wife should get some counseling - together - just so that - if this is what she really wants - that you can at least be "comfortable" with the decision. I would explain to her - for the sake of your kids, you would like to remain friends with her - but you just don't see it happening - unless you, too agree that divorce is necessary. Try to convince her to go to counseling under the auspice of making you understand why divorce is that only option - and maybe during counseling she'll discover - that maybe divorce is not the only option. Explain to her that you only want whats best for her - but you want to make sure that you BOTH don't have any regrets about getting divorced - that she may be comfortable with that choice, but your not - and that if she wants to have some kind of relationship with you - even as friends or being civil to each other because of your children - then ask her to go to counseling with you - to help you understand what went wrong. <P>Maybe she won't go to counseling under the premise that you two can "save your marriage." But, maybe she'll go to help you understand why this is the only option. The thing is, you want her to open up to you (and perhaps the counselor) and find out why this is the only option - right now, I gaurantee that she will say that the main reason is that she "just doesn't love you" like she used to - or like a wife should love her H.<P>I think she'll say that because that's how she feels right now at this particular time. But just as her feelings "changed" before, they can still change - but she just doesn't WANT to see that - and really I couldn't see that either (at one time) with my H. But now, I can only tell you that there is no other person I would rather spend my life with - than with my H. And, I was in deep - the only thing that kept me hanging on - at the beginning - was that I didn't not want to lose my H's friendship - he really was and still is my best friend.<P>So, maybe this helped, I don't know. I think Steve would definitely need to hear both sides, but maybe you/him can convince her that counseling would be good (not for her ) but for you - to help you understand and accept her decision. This may sound like you're playing games with her head - but right now - she really isn't listening to reason - so I think you kind of have to lure her into counseling - lure her into opening up to you - because if she doesn't, she will only see her decision as the best one, and I'm afraid that in time - she will regret that decision (and unless you physically abused her, I think it will only be a matter of time before she regrets the decision). The unfortunate thing for her - it may be too late, you may have already moved on.<P>Anyway, just some thoughts.

Hey SKM,<BR>Are you my wife posting under an assumed name??? <P>I talked to Steve yesterday for the second time. He said that I should ask her to set up an appointment with him under the premise that it would help me grow and learn. Not to repair our marriage.<P>I ran that by her this morning and and she said that she would have to ask her councilor if that was alright (as in ethical) for another councilor to ask to talk to her. She then said are you doing that phone counciling thing. My councilor says that only "quacks" do phone counciling. I said that I like him and that he is helping me deal with the situation.<P>I don't know if I can get her to talk to Steve or not. Your insight is very good and I'm sure that she believes that divorce is the only option because she is "not in love" with me. <P>She is like a runaway freight train with nothing to stop it. I will try to get her to go to counciling with the idea to help me come to terms with the divorce and so that we can remain friends. <P>The problem is finding one that she will go to. I would love to have her talk to Steve, but I don't know if that will be an option.<P>I really have this pit in my stomach today, knowing that she was so angry this morning and said that she was going to file. I don't know how to deal with ther anymore. I am trying to be as nice as I can and still keep what little self respect I have left. <P>I have to keep reminding myself that she is not the woman that I married...she has some illness that is causing her to be irrational.<P>Thanks...<BR>~Mike~

Mike, I haven't read this whole thread yet - the baby is starting to fuss and I want to get this down before she loses it <G> I'll be back to finish reading it when she sleeping again!<P>Let me share something that I did when my H was acting much in the same way that your wife is. Take it with a grain of salt, because at the time, I didn't know about MB and I was stumbling through his affair and separation all by myself.<P>I made it very clear to my H that he was welcome in OUR home at any time to visit with our children. I resisted every suggestion that he take them to his apartment for weekends, etc. He insisted that he wasn't IN love with me, and that he was ONLY coming around for the kids.<P>So, I took him at his word. I made sure the house was always in very clean and organized condition when he was on his way over. I worked on making small improvements that made it more comfortable and nice.<P>When he arrived, I withdrew. One of my improvements to the house was that I had purchased a nice TV for the bedroom, and put the DVD player in there (we both love movies) and I *know* that this is an improvement that would appeal greatly to him. I'd be sure to have a movie rented for myself when he was coming over. He'd show up, I'd retire to the bedroom, shut the door, watch my movie, read a book, or make phone calls to my friends and family. I took care of myself,and was very careful to be busy and private. My attitude to him was extremely polite. I didn't try to talk to him about "us" or his affair. I'd cook dinner - and set the table for him and the boys. I'd take my own plate back to the bedroom!<P>The result? He kept finding excuses to knock on my door. He kept finding excuses to come talk to me (I suspect conversation is a big need of his). If he iniated a conversation, I'd go along with it, but I didn't try to continue it or keep it going. Sometimes, I found reasons to end it (I did this alot when he called on the phone. It was polite and business only, and I made sure *I* hung up first).<P>All of these things caused him to pursue me. Now that I know the MB principles, hindsight clearly shows me that while he didn't think he needed me, I was still meeting needs that he missed when I stopped doing that. The fact of the matter was that while his excuse was the kids, his reason for visiting was to see me.<P>Watch what your wife does, not what she says.<P>Doing the above things also helped me to find the courage to Plan B (although I didnt know about Plan B yet). When I cut contact with him (twice) because I couldn't handle his presence any longer, both times I got results very quickly.<P>We are now in recovery (I think and hope!) and working with Steve Harley. While my actions weren't totally in line with MB principles, they definitely helped him to see that he needed me, and that his OW wasn't meeting needs that I was.<P>I wish you all the best.

Hi BR,<BR>Nice to hear from you. I sure hope that things work out for you and your H.<BR>My wife and I have already discussed a custody agreement, and she comes to the house once in a while to get the kids ready for school when I have to leave.<P>I guess that I need to take things less personally, although that is very hard when you are being treated like a piece of crap.<P>I am starting to Plan A after my talk with Steve yesterday. I just wish that she was more open minded and would concider reading some of the material on the site. That is along way away I'm afraid!<P>Thanks for the post...<BR>~Mike~

Hi Mike - one more thing, now that I have read this whole thread Your wife's objection to contact with her family struck a cord with me.<P>Again, this probably isn't MB, but this is what happened to me when I was fumbling on my own and didn't know what Love Busting was!<P>I have no family nearby. I am very close to my H's family. When his affair started, I was very open and honest with them about what was going on. My H saw this as "turning his parents against him". Big time love buster on my part I guess.<P>During all of this time, they stayed pretty quiet and didn't say much to him. They were polite to him, and told me that I had their complete support. He continued to deny to everyone that he was having an affair - I was crazy he said.<P>When I found hard proof that was completely undeniable - I gave it to his parents and explained to them that I would always love them and hoped we would never lose our closeness, but that because of the information I had obtained that I had no choice but to file for divorce. His family completely supported me, even went with me to the lawyer's office.<P>His mother went to him, told him that she knew and how she knew. She told him that his father and siblings had also been informed. She told him that they would always love him, but that they were NOT going to lose their daughter in law because of his outrageous behavior.<P>Huge love busting again here - but at this point I had lost all hope and saw no other option but to file. He was FURIOUS with me.<P>BUT in SAA - which I hadn't read yet - Dr. Harley says that affairs don't last more than 6 months after they have been exposed. Until this point, my husband still imagined that his affair was a secret. His parents finding out was the beginning of the end.<P>I don't know if I would do these things again, now that I understand MB and have read most of the Harley books, and have been in counseling with Steve. BUT I can say that while I love busted big time, it was also the turning point for my husband's decisions. If I had protected and enabled him by not telling his family, he might still be with the OW. I'll never know for sure. It took a few more months before he was ready to say: Let's work on us. But that is definitely where he started to slowly wake up.<P>My thoughts are with you.<P>

Thanks PJ,<BR>I have been supported whole heartedly by my inlaws and my wifes whole family. Her sister will not even talk to her and is furious with her. She swears that the EA is not the reason why she is looking for a divorce, it's because she is not in love with me. Well no kidding...you told me you are in love with someone else...<P>She continues to work with this doctor at the hospital and I don't know where the EA is right now. She told me that he will not leave his wife, but I don't know for sure. <P>She continues on the one way track to divorce with no end to this in sight. I keep trying to stall her, but this makes her even more angry.<P>6 months ago if I had asked her to read the info on MB. She would have loved it...now she thinks that it is not possible to rebuild love. I sure hope that attitude changes real soon, but I don't think that it will. <P>thanks for taking the time to write...<BR>~Mike~

I waited until my H was ready to consider the thought that our marriage might be repaired. Then I just handed him a print out of the Basic Concepts section of the website - it was perfect, because it was simple and concise. After reading it, thats when my husband said lets try this. I also made it only one of several different options for counseling. He chose it over a couple others, and so he felt like he had been part of the decision for "our" counseling.

Hi BR,<BR>How long did it take for your H to smarten up? How did you survive the pain while you were waiting. <P>I know right now that we need to do something to restore the lost love that she had. I would like to find someone that uses the MB techniques. I don't know if anyone else can help us. <P>She really needs to buy into this and I don't think that that is going to happen for a while if at all. Sometimes I think that this situation is hopeless, but I'm sure that everyone else on here has pretty much thought that at one time or another.<P>It's just really hard to focus when all she talks about is divorce. <P>I hope all this pain will be worth it someday. At least I will know that I did everything in my power to save our marriage.<P>~Mike~