It really doesn't matter what you do or don't do during your marriage, before, during of after the affair, not when the WS is living in an alternate reality. No events, nothing you do or say, even enters his consciousness if it doesn't fit with his perception of reality. He says he can't do something because of X. You can show that X is not the case. He will repeat that he can not do something because of X. <P>Having an affair and leaving his family conflicts with his core values - he can not do anything that conflicts with his core values - therefore it must be the spouse's fault, he must have "had" to do it. If he is unhappy about the OW's demands, it must be my fault somehow. If I disagree with him about anything, he tells me I am stupid, that one of the reasons he was divorcing me was that I am stupid, that I don't have the kids' best interests at heart if I am not in complete agreement with him about everything, including choice of classroom. <P>My advice for anyone whose H left for an OW, especially if the OW is domineering and the H is a conflict avoider, especially if the H has shown signs of uncharacteristic behavior in areas unrelated to the marriage, depression, extreme black and white thinking, is to forget Plan A, Plan B, to forget hope - to just get the H*** away, as far away as legally possible as quickly as possible. It does not get better. It only gets worse, far worse, the longer it goes on, the more depressed he gets.

Nellie,<BR>When I initially began reading MB, it was our first separation, and all I knew for sure was that my H was depressed. I had persuaded him to go to a counselor who had set up a med doc appt for my H to get anti-deps. But H wouldn't take them.<P>The Harley article on spousal depression states pretty clearly that the depression (or alcoholism, etc) has to be dealt with before the marriage will heal. In my H's case, the OW was one of his tries at self-medicating, but she didn't "work" consistantly.<P>My H & I are together, but like you, I had no idea how long it would take (2+) years and the damage that would be done to me and the marriage. But, I wouldn't say forget Plan A & B...in my case, one of the reasons, among many, that I didn't move to Plan B was my worry about my H. It wasn't until I did take myself out his life...well, after he had moved out again, that he put himself back together.<P>What you are describing sounds a lot like TOUGH LOVE, do you think it would have made a difference had you done that earlier in your case? Or do you truly just wish you had gone for a quick divorce and cut off contact?<P>I know how difficult it is to second guess my own actions. And, having a good outcome at this time, I tend to think what I did must have either had merit, or was dumb luck. I wouldn't want anyone to follow my exact path.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Whatever is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, gracious...think about these things." Phil 4:8

When my H told me he was "in-love" with someone else, I had been trying for some time to get him to get help for depression (as had his MD best friend). But, at the time he would not do so. In his mind, the marriage was the problem and the OW the solution.<P>We were quite lucky...several months of Plan A did give him the hope that the marriage could be better than ever, that I loved him deeply & felt he was worth all this effort, and he finally did go seek counseling. If he'd stubbornly continued to refuse, I doubt we'd ever have made it...so I do agree that the depression has to be dealt with, but I also would not say to forget marraige building. <P>Nellie, I think your H is suffering from more than a "simple" depression... sometimes you have to realize that you did all you can do, but it is out of your hands. Unfortunately, short of certifiable behavior, one cannot force another to go get help...<BR><p>[This message has been edited by kam6318 (edited February 06, 2001).]

Nellie,<BR>I quite agree. The flawed thinkning, tearing the children apart by playing them off (never taking them together as a unit...your kids and mine etc.) makes this mid life crisis/ personality disorders/illness so much harder.<P>I would have been better off had H stayed away from kids...instead of instilling (quite sucessfully) his new values of no responsibility,hedonism etc on the kids. This has made it so much harder.<P>Of course our way of parenting has to be wrong, it is my fault that he refuses to talk to me, etc.<P>Hopefully they will never wake up or the pain they will have to inflict on thyem selves will be horrendous.<P>I no longer want any part of H. I view him as a recaltirant teen who thinks he is completely rational.I am not his mother to be there whn he wakes up (if ever). The harm he has inflicted on this family is horrendous... <P>You are correct......their view of us is to blame...and probably subconsciously givers them a yard stick to understand how far they have truly fallen.<P>In these cases, no matter what you do,there is no hope.<P>Nellie, what are your plans for the future? Would you still take him back?

Lor,<P>I do not think I could have lived with myself had I gone for a quick divorce (or even a slow one), but financially that certainly would have been better. I don't think anything would have made any difference - the OW tells him to jump and he asks how high. If I had moved far away, he would not have been able to disappoint the children over and over again, by cutting back visitation further and further until it is only a few hours a month, and blaming it on them and on me. If I had moved, he undoubtedly would have blamed me, but he wouldn't have blamed the kids too. <P>kam,<P>I agree that this is more than "simple" depression. He was laid off many months ago, and has run out of unemployment compensation, but he still does not have a job, as far as I know. I can't imagine what he does with himself all day - the "old" H would have been outside building something or cutting down trees, but you can't do that when you are living in a condo. He looks miserable; he is constantly getting sick. He swings from acting defeated to angry outbursts, and not just at me. Even his lawyer once told him to be quiet. <P>willbok,<P>My plans for the future consist mainly of finding a way to keep the kids fed and a roof over their heads. I am beginning to doubt that my H will ever work again, and he is over a decade away from retirement. Yes, I would take him back, but it seems the more miserable he becomes, the more depressed he gets, the more the OW restricts the amount of time he can spend with the kids, the angrier he gets at me.

Hi Nellie,<P>First let me say, I'm so sorry. I can feel your pain, and I can honestly say I empathize. I also agree with you in that if their behavior is a result of some type of mental illness, there is not much we can do that is going to make any difference. Even the mental health community who is trained to treat such cases has a pathetic track record of success. <P>The hard part is that most of us are so totally caught unaware that it takes time to not only come to grips with the problem but to ascertain how serious it is. What would be worse- to "waste" a year or two of your life trying to save the marriage and in some cases the spouse, or simply walking away and then forever wondering if you did the right thing?? I know that my H is ill (he threatens suicide among other things), so this decision weighs heavily on my conscience.<P>Hindsight is always 20/20; the difficult part of life is wading through the muck and mire so that you can then look back and see it all so very clearly. I think we should all feel very proud of ourselves for trying to do the best that we can under the circumstances.<P>Hang in there, Nellie. We're here if you need us.

Nellie,<P>I rarely if ever reply to you is because of your adament negativity...<P>I am compelled to reply to this because it goes totally against every MB principle!!<P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A and Plan B</A> are designed for the betrayed spouce!!<P>There is no guarantee it works!!<P>People do strange things for strange reasons!!<P>Does it matter if they are depressed or addicted or what ever you can think of? <B>NO!</B><P>What matters is surviving this horrific ordeal and comming out of it with our sanity and esteem intact!<P>Why are you unable to stop pointing your finger and living life as a victim??<P>Do you like killing yourself from the inside out??<P>If so then by all means keep doing what your doing and eventualy you will be of no use to your kids and your ExH will have destroyed you!!<P>Have I been victimized by my STBX leaving for an OP?? <B>YES!!</B><P>Will I <B>ALLOW</B> it to ruin me?? Not only no but <B>HELL NO!!</B><P>Why don't you get off your pity pot and commit to either <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A or Plan B</A>.<P>I suspect that it's too late for a <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A> in your situation. So maybe try <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A>.<P>I know this reply is harsh in nature but I would be remiss as your friend here on the boards if I didn't step on your toes with my opinion. I hope you know that I do love you and want you to be able to enjoy your life without this misery and torture.<P>Bill<P>------------------<P><BR>May the roads rise to meet you,<BR>May the winds always be at your back,<BR>May the sun shine warm upon your face,<BR>The rains fall soft upon your fields,<BR>And until we meet again,<BR>May god hold you<BR>In the hollow of his hand.<p>[This message has been edited by WilliamJ (edited February 06, 2001).]

sidney,<P>Thank you for your support. Walking away without trying was never even an option for me, but in so doing, I feel like it just enabled him. Instead of moving immediately to a cheaper area of the state, I found a job here mainly to make it easy for him to spend time with the kids. Instead, he quickly cut back the time so that I might as well live farther away. And now I am stuck, because I can't afford to move away and be unemployed even briefly in order to benefit us in the long run, since he pays so little child support.<P>When we first went to counseling, my H told the therapist and me that he not only had been contemplating suicide, but laid out detailed plans on how and where. The therapist did not seem particularly worried. Then again, one thing I think my H and I would agree on, perhaps for different reasons, is that this particular therapist might just as well have gotten her degree off a cereal box.<P>William,<P>Yes, it does matter a great deal if they are depressed, because for one thing, the LB and Plan A and Plan B theory do not apply in cases where the WS is mentally ill. Plan A sure as hell did nothing for me. Plan B is the worst possible thing for children. <P>I think it those who go around saying how much Plan A has benefited them, how much they have "grown" are the ones who are most often fooling themselves. Why do people have such a hard time accepting that having your spouse desert you is just a horrible tragedy, not a cloud with a silver lining. Why do they have to pretend that something, anything good has come out of it? If he died, people wouldn't try to convince me that I had somehow "grown." Would you accuse me of "living life as a victim" if I were grieving because he had died? If he had been murdered, would you think that I was odd for wanting the murderer to be convicted? <P>Does your wife refuse to see your daughter when she begs her to spend more time with her? Does she tell her that she isn't well behaved enough to spend time with her? Does she tell her that the reason she doesn't listen to her is that she rarely has anything interesting to say? Has she called her 4 times in 2 years? Unless you have been there, you have no call to make negative comments.<P>I am doing my best to support my kids with little assistance from my H, I am going to graduate school, I am raising a large family including one with serious special needs and two others with learning disabilities. My income plus child support is not sufficient to pay the average rent plus food and utilities. What am I supposed to do, jump for joy?

Nellie,<P>I know it's not easy being a single mom. <BR>I am raising 3 boys on less than $10 an hour. (Actually $7 an hour since I've been promoted and my raise hasn't kicked in) I work about 55 hours a week and only get paid for 40 since it's a salary position. My stbx has nothing to do with the kids, and doesn't try to make excuses for it. In order to do that, he would have to talk to them. They saw him in July and for 2 hours on Christmas day. Nothing since. And I didn't get child support from August to January. I finally got a little the middle of January. <P>Are my kids suffering? Yes. Is it easy?? HE** NO!! Am I doing my best?? YES!! <P>Sometimes life isn't what we want it to be but we just have to suck it up and live. Yes, we have to struggle daily but you have to feel good that you somehow are managing. If your kids are fed, clothed and have a roof over their heads, then you are succeeding! Even if it's not the best of everything, they know that you are trying and you are showing them that you can do this. They will respect you for that and in the end, will see their father as he is.<P>Take care,<BR>Mitzi

Nellie,<P>I know you have 5 or 6 kids. I know your H pulls your's and their strings.<P>I know you struggle everyday.<P>My point is...until you can overcome your victimazation of your H you will never grow.<P>Have you <B>ONCE</B> ever heard ME jump for joy of my pending divorce??<P>No you haven't because It is the worst thing to ever happen to me.<P>What I have done is followed the suggestions given to me and I have grown from this.<P>IMHO the only time we truly grow emotionaly and spiritualy is when we have to deal with pain.<P>My hat goes off to you for your getting a higher education.<P>Plan-B will work for anyone that has the tenacity to try it! Call the Harley's and ask them if you don't believe me.<P>And the Harley's have forgotten more about this kinda of stuff than any one of us will ever know.<P>You are a fighter and you will get past all this. I only wish you would stop worrying about who's to blame. That won't help one bit in getting your livelihood and your life back.<P>Give yourself a break. You deserve it.<P>Love You,<P>Bill

I concur with Nellie that there exists a sizable minority of waywards that will not respond to anything the betrayed does. Unfortunately, Nellie and I are/were both married to them. I'm sure I could have Plan A'd another 10 years and my husband would still say to me "you're only nice to try and get me back so you can destroy me", as he said to me after 1 1/2 years of Plan A. For these men who refuse to look inward for any portion of responsibility for what has happened or what they have done, there is no hope of reconciliation. <P>The problem is, you can only determine this AFTER trying for a significant amount of time. While the Harley methods didn't work for me (and I actually did them), I am nearly certain that nothing would have worked. The real question is whether there is an approach that's better. If there is one, I haven't come across it in my ample readings.<P>I can't end without making this comment. Why would anyone want someone like this back? These waywards have literally proven themselves devoid of character and values. We all deserve better spouses than what this type can provide. I know many disagree, but I can't see how never-ending commitment to a one person marriage promotes healing or self esteem. I think the Harley's put a two year recommendation on things not only to set a long-term target, but also to provide a reasonable end point for we highly committed/ goal-oriented types to be consider. Just my two cents.

Hi Nellie,<BR>I've experienced the same level of frustration I see jumping off the page in your post. I'm not betrayed in the traditional sense. But I have been forsaken. My H lives in an alternate reality of sorts. It's just as much my fault as it is his, because I allowed it to happen. <P>With all due respect to wm, I agree in principle, but Nellie, we both know it isn't that simple. Because we care for our H's well being, it makes the execution of plan B more complicated. I for one was ready to end my marriage last year. Part of what kept me from taking action was the fear that my H would end up under a bridge without my support. When I separated from him temporarily in December, I had grave reservations. I worried I might be a widow instead of a potential divorcee. <P>I believe wm j's statement are on target for marriages that were healthy and functional at some point in the recent past. For those of us who live in a dysfunctional marriage for prolonged periods, I believe Plan A and Plan B have limitations. I don't think plan A and plan B are a one size fits all solution, nor were they intended to be. A plan designed for infidelity may not be appropriate for problems caused by depression. <P>Even so, plan A does benefit the person practicing it. And as heartless as it may sound, your H's depression is HIS problem. In my case, I believe my H is suffering from undiagnosed PTSD from his vietnam days. I truly fear for his well being if this marriage doesn't survive. I sense that same human compassion in your post Nellie. We want the best for our H's, even when things are rotten. And I'd like to suggest to wm, that it is precisely because of this compassion that I allowed myself to become completely drained of all my resources in my misguided efforts to shield my H from his demons. Marital problems caused by affairs are easily identifiable. Problems caused by indifference are not so easy to pinpoint, or even recognize, until a long standing pattern of behavior is established. <P>Nellie, I allowed my heart and soul to wither. I worry that your assessment of plan A may be an indication of seriously low reserves. I don't think you're on a "pity pot", but I do know that your H's burdens can destroy you if you try to carry them for him. If you haven't read Boundaries in Marriage, run to the bookstore and get it. And I do mean RUN!

I often wonder how well many of us have read the book <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6070_sa.html" TARGET=_blank> An Affair"(SAA)</A> by Dr. Willard Harley. And if so how many of us didn't come to grips with the reality that our Wayward's won't come back.<P>That is what the Plans really do, the prepare us for that inconcievable possibility. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Wayward spouses do not necessarily have a history of lying, but their affair turns them into masters of deception. (page 40 of SAA)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>How to keep a secret second life secret<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"Stay out of my private life", "I'm disappointed you don't trust me", "I can't remember", "We're just friends", and "I just need some time away to think things through" (pages 40-44 of SAA)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Plan A: Avoid angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, and selfish demands (i.e. <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busters</A>!) at all costs. (page 75 of SAA)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>(#3.) The (betrayed) spouse needs to know that he/she had done his/her best to save their marriage. (page 76 of SAA)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>(#4.) If the (betrayed) spouse follows the plans (A & B), and they(the plans) fail, the (betrayed) spouse would no longer have any feelings of love for the wayward spouse. (page 76 of SAA)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Affairs and dishonesty always go hand in hand. You cannot have one without the other. (page 78 of SAA)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Plan B: Avoid contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has ended (page 79 of SAA)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If Plan-B fails then go back to quote #3.<P><BR>I know <B>I</B> did all I could and she won't come back...<P>If any of you know my story you'd see some real mental illness on the part of my Ex...<P>I did these Plans and can honestly walk away with no regret on my part...<P>I cannot control her so what she does is <B>ALL</B> on her...<P>Some will refuse to see the validity of these ideas and that's ok...<P>I say if you keep doing what you have always done, you'll get what you have always gotton...<P>The whole idea is to survive this nightmare with my sanity intact.<P>Bill<BR><p>[This message has been edited by WilliamJ (edited February 07, 2001).]

Nellie1- <BR> If you believe in none of the MB Principles why are you still here?<P>

Mitzi,<P>I don't know how you can survive on that income - I assume that housing costs must be a lot less than the average 1800 a month they are here. How did you find a daycare provider that was even open that many hours, and how can you afford daycare? Daycare costs about $5 an hour per child here. Is your H employed, and if so, why hasn't the court attached his wages?<P>I think in a lot of ways it would be far better to have the H completely uninvolved, instead of constantly trying to tell me what to do with the kids while spending very little time with them.<P>William,<P>I am not "worrying about who is to blame." I just think it was a mistake in my case to "Plan A." It is not just that it did not work - trying to treat him decently backfired. <P>Distressed,<P>I agree that it is unlikely anything would have worked in cases like this. The man I married was not devoid of character or values - the man I see know is clearly mentally ill.<P>lonesome heart,<P>I have grave doubts about the existence of "dysfunctional marriages." One or both partners can certainly be dysfunctional, but calling the marriage dysfunctional implies that if the spouses were to marry different people, those marriages might not be - and if the spouse is dysfunctional, then it matters not with whom he is in a relationship.

Nellie - I am forced to agree with both you and Bill on this. Bill is 100percent right in the general case and lots of individual cases. But where true mental illness is concerned, all bets are off.<P>But, I disagree with lonesome heart, you <B>are</B> on a "pity pot".<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>it really doesn't matter what you do or don't do during your marriage, before, during of after the affair, not when The WS is living in an alternate reality...<BR>I think it those who go around saying how much Plan A has benefited them, how much they have "grown" are the ones who are most often fooling themselves...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That last statement was particularly insulting to me and many others. You have been on this board 2-3 months longer than I have, for you to make that last statement means that you haven't really paid attention here for the last (soon to be) two years.<P>I emphathize with your situation. You don't deserve it. Your children don't deserve it. <BR>Regardless of your interpretation of the various "plans", <B>both</B> of them are designed to benefit <I>you</I> in making you a better person in general and more attractive as a marital partner. You seem to have missed the point completely. <P>I am a better person because of "Plan A". Even people around me who didn't know much about our situation have made positive comments about how I seem to have changed. <P>Now, you can jump my case about this if you want, but if you had ever read any of my postings in late '99 and early '00, you would have known that I was the biggest proponent of each situation being unique and that the "plans" sometimes have to be modified to fit the situation. I never believed in "Plan B" in my situation and would never have done it.<P>In other words, I think that in your case you are probably right on in your assessment. However, Plan A(maybe to everyone else except your H) would benefit you and make you less judgmental of the rest of us. It's certainly an aspect of you that you had better get rid of before your next relationship. Just because something doesn't work for you, doesn't mean the rest of us are "fooling ourselves".<P>--DeWayne--

Nellie,<P>Yes, in WV housing is cheaper. I live in a small town and most things are cheaper. I have a house payment that is $400 a month, a car payment, insurance, and all of my utilities. Most months, I just have to decide which bill is most important to pay. My phone has been shut off several times because at the time it wasn't the most important thing I needed. <P>As for daycare, I am lucky to have my parents and a sister that babysit for me. But I also have a friend that I trade babysitting with. That helps her out with daycare costs and gives my mom and sister a break. Plus a girl that I work with occassionally watches the boys. <P>As for my stbx, he works as little as possible. When I do get child support it's because he started working and they attached his wages. But once they start doing that, he quits his job. That's called forced impoverishment. I can't do a lot about that yet, but will be able to by the end of the month. <P>It honestly does make it easier on you if the father isn't involved at all, at least it's easier emotionally. But in your case, just go by the rules. Inform him when you need to and forget about the rest. Plan B to a degree.<P>Take care,<BR>Mitzi

Mitzi,<P>I have been on this site for quite a while, and have followed your posts since the first day you came here. I want you to know how much I truly admire you and your positive attitude. I suggest you go back and read all of your old posts, and track the progress you have made. <P>I know that your life is difficult right now, and I am sure that your marriage could have survived and been successful if your husband had just half the strength and character you have shown. You didn't deserve the heartbreak and pain you have endured, but I honestly believe that the qualities you have exhibited as a mother and as a woman WILL be rewarded by future happiness. I hope that it happens for you very soon! You are someone to be respected and admired, and I think you are a fine example that infidelity can be survived with the help of the Harley principles. Good luck!<P>Peppermint

Heartpain,<P>I have rarely if ever seen any specifics on how people have "grown" or "become a better person" by using Plan A, or even what the definition of "growing" is. I have, however, seen many, many posts about how the BS spouse has become less trusting of anyone. I used to be reasonably optimistic; I used to think most people were basically good until proven otherwise - I am now far more cynical. I think it would be stretching it to call that "growth."<P>There were a number of comments in your post that I consider judgemental. <P>I doubt very much that how well some one applied the Harley principles is correlated with either the rate of reconciliation or the BS's "personal growth," if that could be objectively measured. If you are a better person for this experience, fine, but is there objective evidence that that occurred because of the Harley principles? Even if so, just because it worked for you doesn't mean it would work for anyone else. From her posts, I think Distressed did one of the best jobs of Plan A'ing - and I do not recall her ever claiming that she has somehow a better person for this. If, in fact, this has improved her, it may well be in spite of Plan A. <P>Apparently any opinions that are not in keeping with the party line are not welcome here.

Peppermint,<P>Thanks, I really appreciate your post to me.<P>I did go back and re-read my old posts not too long ago. GOD! What a mess I was!! LOL I would never have thought that I could have made it thru all of the crap I've been thru. But I did. I may not be doing great all the time, but I'm just doing my best.<P>I don't see my life as extremely difficult right now. Believe me, it's been worse! But it's mostly comfortable. There are days when I wonder how I'm going to make it, but it always seems to work out. Something always happens to make the situation just easy enough to get thru. I have to believe that comes from God. I may not be the most religious person but I do believe that I'm being looked after. <P>And yes, my marriage could have survived and been great. But my stbx didn't want to deal with any of his problems in order for that to happen. I refuse to be bitter or angry or depressed. If I am, then he's done what he set out to do...make me miserable. And I won't give him the satisfaction. I have gotten thru everything that he has ever done to me. And I've done it for myself and my kids. I want to be someone that they respect and admire and love. And most of all, I want to be someone that I respect, admire and love. <P>Thanks again,<BR>Mitzi