I to feel a lot of sympathy for you r wife and none for the OW. I can relate to your wife's feelings since the OP was once my best friend. But you need to realize that that is what gives them the advantage. They have learned all about you from your wife, what you like and don't like, what you want and don't want. They become everything you want and need because your wife has given them a map to your EN. Never doubt that during your affair the OW was probably asking your wife questions about you to get information to benefit her. I know that the OP use to ask me things in general and use my answers against me, this came out after A was over and we began to rebuild our 12 years. Do not feel sorry for OW if anything feel sorry for your W and for the time the two of you lost. Be glad your wife is a forgiving soul and willing to try again. You will never know how much of a sacrifice that is for her to make. She is committed herself, at this point, to pain on an everyday bases for quiet some time to come. Encourage her to visit this site also for support and encouragement. The good news here is that your marriage can be rebuilt but the OW has got to go. No contact is necessary so that you and your wife can begin to come together again by her being the one to meet your EN not the OW. This will not occure overnight and for a while you may even feel like you are giving but not receiving any emotional support. But be patient and supportive your W needs you at this time more than ever. Good luck on your recovery and hope that you and W can one day put this behind you. <P>------------------<BR>Healing in NC

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What no one ever talks about is a woman's "biological need" to have and nurture children. It is just as much of a biological need as a man's need for sex... and it is driven by body chemistry, just as is a man's sex drive is driven. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Terri, I am 45 and have NEVER felt a "biological need" to have and nurture children. Ever. I have no regrets, and wish everyone would stop telling me, "Oh, you'll change your mind; you still have time.<P>Your points about women being expected to fill men's need for sex whereas men don't need to fill women's "need" for children is well-taken. However, the former doesn't involve the life of an innocent third party the way the latter does.<P>Most people do not communicate adequately about such matters before marriage. In our culture, women think about "the wedding", not about "the marriage" that follows. Marriage is not a party and a white dress. I think if more couples talked openly about the issue of children before marriage, you'd have less cases like Outhere. <P>I once had a boyfriend I chased for three years. Finally he was ready to marry, and we discussed children. He insisted that his children be Catholic. My grandmother lost nine siblings in Hitler's camps, and I felt very strongly that it would be a betrayal for my children (if I had any, which was still ANOTHER issue) to be Catholic. Nothing against Catholicism, but just not for me or any offspring I might have. I ended up not marrying the guy. There are worse things than a broken engagement or relationship.<P>As far as sex is concerned: Women are still socialized to dislike sex. In reality, without all the associated religious and cultural baggage, women probably need and/or want sex as much as men do. But we're taught that it's bad, and dirty, and that sexual virtue is the ideal to which we should strive. Then, a clergyman says a few words, and you're suddenly expected to be a tiger in the bedroom. Sorry, it's not like flipping a switch, folks. No wonder women find it hard to "step up to the plate." <P>Let's not even get INTO how women are made to feel inadquate by a culture that regards only a tall, slim, bosomy body as sexually attractive.<P>As for men, well, at the same time that we're raising girls to crave marriage, we're socializing boys and men that marriage is something to be avoided as long as possible. What is a bachelor party, after all, but a sad farewell to the ability to drink to excess and have meaningless sex with as many people as possible? You'll never see a man talk about his approaching wedding the way a woman will.<P>It's a wonder to me that anyone gets together at all.<P>Sorry to pontificate on your thread, Outhere, but your situation brings up some larger issues that do warrant discussion.

Dazed and Confused,<P>Not all women have a biological drive to have children - but then again there are a few men who do not have a biological sex drive - and a much larger number who do not feel a biological need for sex with women. Does that mean that you can deny the existence of these biologically based drives? <P>I am 47, and I still can not pass by an infant without being overwhelmed with desire to have another one - and you might think that after having given birth to six babies weighing as much as 11 pounds that that might not be the case.

Let's just get to the point here, the one that everyone seems to have missed from my two posts on this subject:<P>There is no comparison between these actions. I am not saying that she was RIGHT - she was absolutely wrong. What I am saying is that an affair can not be trivialized no matter what else has happened.<P>Maybe some of us have not felt that "biological need" to have and nurture children - but it is not for those of us to deny that it does, indeed, happen. I've felt it myself, and know others who have also felt it. It is more than just a "yen." It is a serious biological urge - body chemistry in action. PMS, a well researched, documented and widely accepted biological condition caused by hormones, is a legitimate legal and medical defense for women who have committed violent acts. Why is it such a stretch to believe that a woman could be hormonally driven to have a child?<P>Again, I want to make it clear that I do not believe that Outhere's wife was in any way "right" to do what she did. But in NO way is it "worse" than what Outhere did to HER by having an affair...<P>Dazed, you wrote: "Your points about women being expected to fill men's need for sex whereas men don't need to fill women's "need" for children is well-taken. However, the former doesn't involve the life of an innocent third party the way the latter does." Unfortunately, it often does. Don't forget that sex is what makes babies, and so many times neither participant thinks about that "in the heat of the moment."<P>Sorry if I seem to be irritable on this subject - but as you can see, it has hit a bit of a raw spot with me.<P><P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

outhere,<P>Thank you for sharing your story. I can tell that it was well thought out. No matter where I am in recovery, it always helps to hear from a ws who has realized what is really going on. I am glad you came here.<P>I can testify that if you follow the steps Dr. Harley has set forth in the SAA book, you can have recovery. I hope that you keep coming back.<P>cleo