Andf furthermore...nah,just kidding,just have a couple more thoughts...answer now, later or never. You wanted to know what I am thinking...Here is it...<BR>I think the difference between the contact in NOV and the contact online when we were separated in AUG, was YOU. I was the same, if not worse,AND I was gone in Aug,too.You just didn't miss me,in Aug. She was certainly the same, I assume. YOU were the only thing different. Maybe you saw the US we are supposed to be somewhere in that first horrible couple of months. I think you will admit that I was kinder to you than you were to me.Think, Birthdays here. If I hurt you, It wasn't on purpose and you hurt me back,when I was already at my lowest point,deliberatly. In defense,because you were afraid, again, that you would not get what you wanted, which was to stay home,be forgiven and continue on as though nothing had happened. That I would make you feel badly for what you had done for longer than you were willing to feel bad. You really did not feel badly anyway,at first. You still didn't like me and had your "righteous" justification for what you had done. It was mostly my fault then remember? I think we were both very scared for different reasons.<BR>You have said that if this had been me that had the A and not You,we would proabaly not be doing this..Why/really,because of the feelings or what you did with her phyiscally? How can you respect me , if I am doing for you what you would not be willing to do for me? Does that make me a doormat?<BR>One more thing, did you realize that what you were having was an affair? On Monday, your buddy figured it out, told you that no matter what you said he KNEW you were having an affair. That was the first time this thing saw the "light of day". I think any clarity you gained in the next week started that day. I wonder if you thought of what you were doing as an "affair" up to that point. Matter? Don't know, just something I thought of. YOU can't have an affair...Did you call it something else in your head or did you truly know what you were doing? Something tells me you didn't call it an affair in your own head. Something says you called it something else because you ended the M for her, chose her over US. If the M is over, it's not an affair. They actually call that an "exit affair", one meant to end the M.When one is aware they are committing an "unforgiveable" offense and continue to do so. Maybe it was an "exploratory affair",one had when you truly believe you want no part of your M, but realize later that you were wrong. We will never know those answers, maybe they should remain forever buried in the fog. BUT rest assured, I can Take the truth, if it ever comes to you. I am not fragile,If you really love me, and I beleive you do, WE can survive this. I may be hurt but I will not break from the truth, please know that...and trust me. I will say here that I will never deliberatly hurt you,EVER, I still don't feel like I ever did. Nothing you could say to me will make me want to lash back,Baby. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Wounded2673 (edited March 19, 2001).]

Unbelieveable,<P> You are just like my H. He is also out of town, all the time. Especially during his A. He is everything you say you are, with the exception of alcoholic. He is a workalcoholic, same thing. He is critical, neat freak, controlling. I pointed out the controlling part to him and my codependence. He denies it, says he is the codependent. (NO WAY) I just agree with him. I say ok I will stop my controlling and you stop being codependent. he doesn't even know the meaning of the word. He is 53 years old. We have been married for 20 years. He was going to leave me for the OW, but she turned him down. He left his 1st wife the same way. Poor her!!! <P> He thinks marriage is men do what they want, and wives follow. I am so happy for you. you have figured out the true meaning of marriage. I am divorcing mine. i already knew the true meaning. Give and take. He thinks it Deb give H take.<P>------------------<BR>Deb

Thanks for replying Deb, sorry to hear that your marriage is ending. Glad I came to my senses, also glad my wife didn't keep her promise, "you cheat your gone," it's been rough but think we will make it. First time in a very long time we laughed in bed last night about some stupid little thing like we did when we were first married. I went to sleep with a smile and woke with it, was in a great mood all day and shared the thought, again with my wife when we talked at noontime on the phone.(got another laugh)<P> Baby, your 2 statements, comments, just prior to Debs are the kind of things that Drive this WS nuts, you say stuff like you said this, or you did this, so it meant this, or it meant this, The honest truth is I don't know what it meant. Your perception is from a place of dealing with things as you sat in the real world, mine are from the make believe land I had created. Most of what I think of as fights that we have had since D=day have been over stuff like what you have mentioned. If I say I don't know or I'm not sure, I get it for being evasive, if I try and explain, I'm either in denial or being defensive. If i agree, I'm asked why and when i can't you think I'm lying. What I think I need is the same that I think you need, and thats time, things are clearer and I'm not afraid to tell you what I know, but only can do that when I do Know........

OK, I know the questions nake you nuts. But, understand, you said things that didn't jive with what you did and vice versa. I hope you CAn get some clarity and that it is real clarity, not just "Gee, I do't feel the same way I did, so I must have never felt it". That seems to be common among WS,men and women. You asked what I was thinking, well, that's the stuff that goes thru my head. <BR>We are worth it, I believe we will make it. I guess I am still angry on some level. I don't deal well with anger, either. It's an emotion I try to surpress. It came out totally and completely the day I discovered the contact. Remember that? THAT is why I try not to show it. <BR>YOU didn't have any trouble, it seemed, going on with your life. You cooked, played music, made jokes, slept..while I was destroyed. It makes it hard to see how you felt guilty,as long as you didn't have to look at me, you seemed to be OK. When we discussed divorce, you smiled and said that was what you wanted but were afraid to say it. "She'll be OK". And so were you, it seemed. You appeared to fine with divorce as long as I was unaware of the A. All I'm saying here, is how does that make sense with what you say NOW, that it wasn't what you wanted. Could have fooled me...<BR>

The above was posted by Wounded2673

unbelievable and wounded: I have been reading your posts the last few days with great interest. Wounded, you sound just like me after my H's affair. Unbelievable you sound just like my H, but I think you are trying harder to be open and honest with your wife than my H did.<P>We are over two years into recovery and are doing great. My H had an affair with a brazen hussy he met in a bar. The meetings I believe were about a month. Continued phone contact lasted about two more months, as far as I know. I think if he did talk, he would describe his feelings much the same way. He has said he doesn't know WHAT he was thinking and that looking back, it is like a whole other person had the affair. He would also describe our life as happy before the affair. I swear it was like a bolt of lightening out of the sky. I can see contributing factors (he just turned 40, he career was at a standstill, a friend was bragging about sex which was in reality nonexistent), but neither of us thought he would ever be capable of an affair. That's the good news we did recover. The bad news is that it is a rough road to get to where we are that. You are early in the time table and if you ask me, you are both "in the fog" a way.<P>Unbelievable, I'll start with you. I don't want to speak for your wife, but I know what it is like to be absolutely obsessed with the affair. I wrote every detail down I could figure out (H didn't talk much) and I searched the house and cars from top to bottom for any receipt, scrap of paper or other "evidence". Believe me, this is not my nature. The first four months or more, I didn't even feel like me and then I only saw glimpses of me for several more months. I think maybe the root of your wife's obsession is that she can't make this affair fit into her head. It doesn't make sense in the context of her life. Although most betrayed spouses share this feeling, I think it may be more pronounced in affairs that did strike out of the blue in a relatively happy marriage. I know I lost the ability to judge reality for several months. I didn't even trust my own reasoning ability, because of course, it was obvious my H could lie and I could be lied to. How could I trust him OR how my own mind processed information? I think my remedy was trying to recreate the whole affair and make sense out of it. Then if I could conclude it really was a big mistake and it really over and despite what ding dong thoughts my H harbored throughout this whole ordeal, any feelings were dead and buried, then I could heal.<P>And to this day I think I could have healed faster if my H had just tried his best to be open and honest. However he is not much of a talker or feeler to begin with...and he was horrified by his actions and didn't want to think of it himself. Much of his evasiveness was his own defenses to avoid unpleasant thoughts or conversations, but any hesitation I interpretted as residual feelings and/or more lies.<P>Wounded, it will never make sense. I fully understand your "need to know", but even though there are still details I don't understand how they hung together, two years later, it is not important. I do understand the bigger picture of the affair.<P>And although none of us ever have a guarantee that infidelity will not touch or life, or revisit, I have forgiven my H and have learned to trust him.<P>Hope some of this helps.

Faith, Thank You, I think on some level, that I KNOW I will never make the events fit in my head. And I know he is trying sooo hard to give me what I need. I try to stop myself from saying these things because I tend to run on...as noted and overwhelm him with my feelings. And he is not real comfortable with those!! Two years...so it can be done...I think we will make it....and Time will be a factor. OW is trying to contact him, as of yesterday. No contact letter is now my issue. I posted "in recoverty", really need some advise. Again, Thank you for being a voice of reason

Dear Unbelievable and wounded,<P>I have been reading your posts and shedding tears. They are both so wonderfully helpful and so heart wrenching. Your situation is also very similar to my H and mine. My H is also an alcoholic 6 months sober. He had and A EA/PA that took place over about a year. Dday is coming up for me in May, something I dread but know I must face. I too thought, no I KNOW, we had a really wonderful special relationship and marriage. Wounded, I can totally relate to your anger. I kept saying to myself "why why- for what" My H choose to give up ten years of love and laughter for a crazy relationship with an absolute psycho. I too think of them together and YUCK YUCK YUCK! I too have a very very hard time understanding. I mean I know I was not perfect in our M and I know he had unmet needs. However I too have loved him with all I am and all I have. I am also an enabler and throughout out our marriage I have concentrated on making him feel good. I thought I was a pretty dam good wife. I loved him always and I would have never turned him away or hurt him- I would rather die. Yet now I too spill my emotions and get caught up in anger and resentment, I hate it and I too feel horrible. It is such a fine line. If I don't share my feelings I lose myself, something I am afraid I did in our marriage. Yet I worry that standing up for myself, my needs and my hurt just ends up hurting him and again I hate to do that. He is having a rough ride since he has only been in AA for a short time, so I try and stay strong. It seems so odd sometimes to love and want to protect the same person that has hurt me so so deeply. <BR>Unbelievable: I truly admire you for your willingness to search for answer and revisit such a painful time. I wish my H would share more with me or be willing to take your same journey, I guess he is just not ready yet. I love him to writing his feelings to me. He answers my questions, but does not understand why I keep having them and the same one. Again like your W I am trying to understand and make peace with it in my own head. I know it was the past but often times the pain of it's memory can hit and feel and feel as if it was yesterday. I love my H dearly and I want our M. But I too feel that I must now reexamine what I thought was reality. I took for granted the fact that I thought my H would never ever do this to me. He condemned other men that had or were doing it. He talked of how foolish they were. I think of how easily OW manipulated him and blatant her game was and I never thought it possible for my H to fall for such an illusion. My H had also had a problem with secrets. He often told me lies, even before the A. He would lie about silly things, why I do not know. I am not a close minded person and I am not sure why it got set up this way in his mind. Even to this day he maintains certain things which we both know are untrue, why? <BR>I wanted to ask you a question. Looking back, I realize that I have done most of the giving in my M. I think that when you give to someone that you can not help but feel love for them and also for yourself. Was this the case for you? If so why when you felt badly about your M did you not give more instead of looking somewhere else to get? Also what do you see as a good way to let your W voice her feelings with sending you to a bad or closed off place? Sorry if I put you on the spot, as you have said you won't answer if you do not want to.<P>Good luck to you both and thank you for sharing.<P><BR>Joyful

Joyful, My H,I think, is gonna answer. But I wanted to say to you that we sound like the same couple. My H also despises men or women who have As. It is the opposite of the person he is. He is 6 years sober but man, that first year or so was rough, without this stuff to deal with,too.<BR>We are finding this site a huge help to us. It's kind of a neat way to talk. I LOVE words, books, nothing makes as much sense for me as the printed word. He doesn't share this and I know this is a labor of love from him to me. So I can See it and maybe process it through my thick head. But I hope this will help other people too. He said tonite,It's a great thing, Baby, this site.Im so glad you found it. I'm glad too. Thank all for your kindness and support

TO WOUNDED,<P>It's me again. I usually don't reply anymore because it brings back the bad memories and pain, but after two years in recovery I have reached a point where I can separate the facts from the emotion.<P>My H and I communicated the first month after DDay only by email (we were separated) and I just couldn't talk to him or see him after finding out. I also find it easier to communicate in writing.<P>I emailed him my questions about the affair--I needed the details. I didn't want any secrets between them. If I knew everything, then I believed it exposed the affair for the fantasy it was and kill any lingering feelings, like sunlight on a vampire.<P>I will give my H credit--he answered every question I asked and although it was hard to absorb, in a strange way it really did help our healing process. When my H emailed the answers to my first set of questions, he said it took him awhile to hit the send button--that he knew he was giving me very reason in the world to hate him, but he also knew I deserved to have the answers after a year of lying to me.<P>My H also did not answer a few of the questions honestly at first--he was trying to protect my feelings. But as I told him, the worst that could ever happen was over and I did not want to find out months later that he hadn't been completely honest with me.<P>Unbelievable,<P>Tell your wife what she needs to know. It is unfair for you to judge what she can handle. Let her show her anger to you now. I was awful the first 4-5 months, many lovebusters, but my H took it and only showed me love and kindness. But now I have no more anger because I got rid of it up front. After two years, I still have the memories, but I don't get angry or sad anymore. If your W suppresses her genuine anger then it will surface in some way months or years later.<P>This has been my experience. We were married 23 years when this happened and will be celebrating our 26th anniversary next month. I had even filed for divorce. But the books that have been suggested and the people here on MB who had gone down this road before me kept me from making many mistakes I would have regretted. I learned from their experience, that's why I'm sharing mine.<P>Again, I hope this helps.<P>

Hello FaithHopeLove and joyful, read both of your replies with great interest, it's a wonderful thing to know that we are not alone in this or so unique. I just got home from an AA meeting, saw some folks I hadn't seen in awhile and got to think alittle about something else other than the A, Tonights topic, however, brought me right back into it. The discussion revolved around, Beware of emotional entanglements. Guess I should have hit that one 9 months ago. I guess my W started another topic this morning about writing a no-contact letter, I read it quickly when I got home from work and decided I would think some before I reply. Wanted to first post back your replies, Faith I think you are probably right on the money with us both still being in the fog, think we are at a place where we can see the clearing and the stuff is lifting but we are still surrounded by it. We love each other and we both want the M to work, it will take time and we'll have some rough spots to get through but as this WS learns to give more of himself and be less defensive things will continue to get better. We had both told each other that if either of us had an A we were through. As late as last week I had said if the shoe were reversed we would have been D by now. Glad things have a way of changing in my mind, I now see it as we'd still be M if my W had an A, but the recovery would have been much nastier, I would have demanded answers, hounded and harrassed, swore, screamed, threatened, and acted in ways much worse than my W is right now. When I think of it in this manner it makes what we are going through alot easier.<P> Joyful, wow, what a great post...wish your H all the best with AA and his soberity, 6 months, good deal, stick with it, it does get easier. Hang with winners, take it one day at a time and pray if you can. If your H ever needs someone to talk with, let me know, be glad to do what I can. It is a we program, much like this forum. To answer your question, hmmmm. I suppose at this point in our marriage and this A business, I'm willing to answer anything that my W asks. Neither of us are very good at setting boundries and when either of us do they get trampled by the other. I'm back to a point where I will not lie to my W, it's pointless and counterproductive to what we have to go through, however, my W has to be able to except "I don't know" as an answer, and she has lately, more often. Also, she would fire 3, 4, 5 questions at a time and I felt like it was 4lbs of linguine being shoved in my mouth at once and being told, chew. I learned to stay sober one day at a time. I worked and still work the 12 steps and have been trying to apply those same steps to this A, but until W found this place I was doing it by myself, doesn't work well that way......thanks so much to all those who have read and or responded. Your in our prayers.........

Baby, I know you hate when I do the "You said this and you said that" in regard to the A. the "What did that mean and What were you feeling" stuff. OK...you were in the fog then and not rational, I get it. And the answers I get will be clouded by that. <BR>But here I go, with "you said" yesterday,when you are nowrational, you said you would stop allowing your feelings of guilt and shame to interfere with stuff I ask. We are going away to NYC for the weekend and so looking forward to enjoying each other's company and have agreed to, on the drive home,3 hrs, to allow me to ask any question I want and you will try to answer honestly. But we did a little last night, and you right away allowed your guilt and deep sense of shame to get in the way. It may be how I ask,I am trying very hard not to be acusatory. You needed the rest of the evening to get out of it. You seem to be OK this AM. <BR>I am not trying to hurt you, Baby, I thought you were trying to help me. I had reached a point of trying to get past everything, all that you have admitted and all that you haven't admitted. But that's really hard,harder than it has to be,especially when you have reached a point of some clarity,due to writing stuff out here.<BR>I guess I don't want you to stop posting now, when it seems you are getting to something. You describe your feelings at the start of the A. Beautifully, I might add. It makes some sort of sense,within the context of where we were. Can you continue ,please? <BR>I think you are saying, that the EA was more about how she made you feel than where it was going. It wasn't HER and ho w she was so great. I think that have been your view of love for a long time. Being the "Taker" in a relationship,all you knew was that you were getting what you needed.Didn't really care,at that point ,what she needed or I for that matter. Makes total sense. Many of the things she said to you, about being wonderful and all that, I was saying too. But, I did get a total attitude about the amount of time you were online. And it makes sense, again in the context of who we were, that the attitude would cloud any effort to stop this thing. But surely, the attitude was justified. We were unable to talk to each other. I was scared of angering you by being too demanding and by that time, for you, it was all my fault, anyway. I was waiting for the kids to go away to school to address this thing thinking you would come out of it by yourself anyway. I was wrong, I am trying to see what I DID and it's coming. I was arrogant in my "perfect" marriage. He loves me, he will never hurt me, we never argue anymore. I thought that meant that the things that i did that hurt you,you had accepted, I didn't know it was because you had given up trying. I was hurt,too, by stuff, but I thought it was temporary. I totally missed the addictive quality. I'm sorry, Baby. I should have seen much sooner and not let you justify the hours you spent playing spades. By the time I really saw it, it was too late. And I think I'm so perceptive.<BR>I am asking that on Sunday, for you to please not let your guilt get in the way. I promise to be gentle,loving, listen and accept I don't know, if that is truly your best answer. PLease trust me, Baby. I won't ask about physical stuff, I REALLY know too much as it is. Every time I have to put the seat all the way back in your truck, I am disgusted. I wish I hadn't asked that question. But you spent "other" time with her in there as well. I don't want to sell the truck and I asked you to have it professionaly cleaned. You haven't done so...so understand ,situations reversed, how that would make YOU feel. I guess it's an issue, not so much want happened there but my need to erase all traces of what happened. Does that makes sense, Baby? Maybe WE should do it your truck. Make a new memory...hope that's not sick Love you

Still seems weird to post here to have to "talk" with you. Guees it's a good place to put something on the table and go from there. You are half right about last night, it did and does bother me to talk about the A, but we need to and I will. What really was bothering me last night was that we had set time aside this Sunday to talk about the A and when I reminded you of this you still continued. After saying you only had one more question, which turned into a seris of questions I reminded you again about Sunday and we still talked more. I didn't want to blow up and I certainly wouldn't have grown a resentment over it, but I needed time so that I could calmly say what was wrong. So that was what it was last night, and yes I'm OK with it now..........

So, the weekend has passed and questions asked. No contact phone call made in a way that was, for me, perfection. I had a wonderful time with you,Baby. You couldn't have been more loving. I hope I was, too. <BR>I am so glad you finally said what I needed to hear. The "love" issue. You have said,over and over, that you never loved her. No, you didn't...certainly not real love. But, my sticking point has been that you THOUGHT you did, That turns out to have been too strong a statement. It wasn't that you thought you did, you actually thought you might or could. THAT makes sense to me. That on some level, you sort of knew you didn't really but that you had to do some self talk to tell yourself you might or could. That your feeling was lust,mistaken for what might be love. When exposed to light of day, she wasn't someone you could trust or love,in a real way. That's all I've been trying to get to. You so vehemently denied it.. that you NEVER loved her,you didn't and you knew that but you thought maybe you could.when as the good man you are, you couldn't have done this for someone who you had no feelings for whatsoever. You,I think, got yourself backed into a corner and #1,didn't want to hurt her because you took on too much responsibility for the way it went,and #2 because you were afraid,rightfully so, that she would tell me.You, the person you are, couldn't love someone who would do that. But, in order to do this, you had to tell yourself that maybe you could. Thank you for giving me what I needed...I think now that you have said that,and we both know it , I can go on, as long as you realize that lust is not love and can never compare to what we have. <BR>I guess I just needed to hear that you really did,down deep, see her for what she is, but that you overlooked it because you thought you might love her. The worst kind of lie,the kind one tells to ones self to justify.<BR>Why was this so important to me? You have asked that over and over. Don't know...I think I just wanted to make sure you saw clearly the difference between real love and what you felt for her. Thank you, again, for suffering through yesterday. You have given me so much this weekend, I will try to repay you...and continue to try to give you some room.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Wounded2673 (edited March 26, 2001).]

Hey, unbelievable.<P>thanks for your courage to come here and share your pain. I am so glad to see both BS and WS responses.<P>It's only be not quite 6 wks since our d-day so I can really relate to your pain. I only forgave myself a week ago today and even still will regret my choice for the rest of my life.<P>Bravo for you wanting no contact. Me, too! I didn't write the letter but left a message with a receptionist in OM's residence (maybe I shouldn't have but hoped it also exposed him as I'm certain he's involved with a staff woman and single lady in the bldg) to tell him H forgave me and we want no contact. He actually has respected that. actually, I think he's such a chicken**** he left town! <P>Ours was not consummated but unfortunately there was physical involvement.<P>As you can see, we are all here for you. We hurt for you and we'll do whatever we can to support your healing. So great that W wants to work things through. Don't give up and when you do, post us,OK? <P>Blessings!<P><P>------------------<BR>Fresh Start