We used to have a loving and caring relationship... Now it seems all we do is fight and argue. As a result the sex between us has diminished to near non-existance.<P>I have accepted this as a natural response to our relationship problems and know that when the relationship gets better the sex will as well.<P>I wont deny... I am a very sexual person, it is one of my top 5 emotional needs. It is the second BIGGEST way I show my love for someone after touching.<P>As you can imagine, even though the lack of sex wasn't the cause of our issues it has now become one of the largest issues. Its a tough situation I agree, I have to stop pressuring her or talking about it for things to get better... but for things to get better sex has to start occuring.<P>So I hold out for a few months, don't bring the topic up, don't mention a thing about it and bottle it up inside... grit my teeth and deal with it. Then I slip, and a comment comes out about the lack of sex... and everything is back to square one. I am honestly sorry for the remark... but it is impossible for a person to keep everything inside themselves constantly.<P>If it is her wish to not have sex she has every right to.... but does that mean I have _LESS_ right to have sex? Is my need to intimate contact any less than her need NOT to have it? Surely that isn't fair... if it is then I could say I have every right to NOT show her I love her and yet expect her to stick around and put up with it.<P>Now the problem deepens. She knows she is going through a difficult time with sex and we have even talked about her doing avertion therapy... but she isn't interested in improving the situation at all (makes it harder to keep quiet as well). She has told me more than once that she is happy with me seeking outside sources to releave my sexual tension but I am loath to approach this as for me it would spell the end of our relationship.<P>I am a loyal person and would much rather a few breif intimate moments with her over a long person of time than a quick fix with someone else.... but there is no compromise with her. On those very rare occasions we have had some sexual contact she sees my "eagerness" as not being satisfied rather than being satisfied to the point of wanting more and feels bad about herself.<P>So what can I do? As I see it I only have these choices :<P>a) Bite the bullet, close my mouth and do everything I can in my power to make her feel better, more comfortable and less pressured. CONCLUSION : At some point I will snap, the timeframe she needs to feel better and that which I can take are different. The longer I keep it inside the more likely I am to really start resenting her... it will only hurt her.<P>b) End the relationship. If this is the way it is and me need is not being met then perhaps I should end the whole relationship. CONCLUSION : Neither of us are going to be happy about that as we have too many emotional ties to each other.<P>c) Cheat. Seek sexual fulfilment outside of our relationship for the meantime without her knowing. I get what I need and I am doing something she has told me to do. CONCLUSION : She may "say" it but not mean it, relationship over and guess who the bad guy is? Secondly, If she were to find out it could end the relationship and again neither of us wants that.<P>d) Try to get us to see a councilor or therapist. CONCLUSION : Tried and it wont work... even phrased it like "I think _I_ need to do this... would you be there with me so I can do right by you" and she is abhorrently against it.<P>e) See someone else with her concent. CONCLUSION: This is a pandoras box I am not sure I want to open. I am a loyal person, if I do this does that mean she will want to do the same? It changes the relationship and chances are if it happened like this I would be the one losing out again.<P>So all I am asking is if someone can give me advice on how to remain loyal, not "bite" when I have taken all I can and still salvage a relationship we both want.<P>Advice?

Lost Soul,<BR> Whatever you do, DON'T cheat!!!<P> My H claimed that he cheated on me with a slut (and brought me a nasty little STD home) because, he claimed, he probably wasn't getting any at home (not true at that time, to the best of my knowledge).<P>However, there have been times when I avoided sex with my H.<P>For instance, when he kept wanting to introduce a new sexual practice that totally turned me off (I did try it!). I had told him that this new activity was something that I really had a problem with and did not want to do. Nevertheless, whenever we'd be hot n' heavy, he's start insisting on it--not asking one time, but continuing insisting on it. I would instantly be turned off. Is it any wonder that I soon started avoiding sex? BTW, we've resolved that issue, and I've gotten over my objections to that particular activity, although I can't really say it's my favorite part of sex.<P>Second, arguing all the time is not conducive to a good sex life or having a willing spouse. Harsh and angry words are not good foreplay!! I read somewhere that "if you want good sex after supper, you'd better start foreplay at breakfast." What that means is this: Be sweet and loving to your spouse the whole day long; compliment him/her; do some little something special for him/her....well, you get the picture.<P>When your wife does come up to you and show affection, do you take that as a sign that she wants sex? NEWS FLASH! Most of the time, it means that she's thinking lovingly of you at the moment and that she simply wants a hug, kiss, or caress--without it always having to wind up in the sack.<P>How do you approach your wife for sex? Some men just reach for their wives as soon as the wives get into bed, and after they're finished, they roll over and go to sleep. It sort of makes the wife feel like that's another demand on her. Sometimes, a wife can feel "depersonalized," as though it doesn't really matter to her H who he's boinking--that she's just a warm body available exclusively for his pleasure (and, the hell with her pleasure!).<P>Anyway, I'm just trying to point out some of the reasons why a woman may not want to have sex, barring a physical problem. I didn't mention the possibility that she might be involved with another man; I didn't get that from your post.<P>Don't cheat; you will ruin your marriage for sure. My marriage has been going downhill for over 13 years because my H cheated, I knew it (because of the STD), and H lied about it until I got so fed up with him last week that I "disappeared" for a couple of days.

I honestly dont mean this to come out the wrong way... and I have thought about a way to phrase this so it doesn't sound but but unfortunately I dont think it is possible, so I will just ask.<P>Do you often read a person's question and then reply with an answer that isn't related?<P>The reason I ask this is that I wasn't asking why she isn't interested in sex... I know exactly why that is the case, I was asking for your advice on which of the options (or a new one if it exists) I should take.<P>I have heard all of the reasons why women don't want sex before, I never roll over after sex, foreplay is not only before breakfast but consists of many tropical fruits and desired things, she can even bring me to erection and perform oral sex on me *KNOWING* it doesn't mean sex will follow, sex with us is tactile and intimate and loving and I always make sure she has everything she needs from mood to lighting to scenery to pleasure before I would even _consider_ any pleasure for myself.<P>It is beside the point but I am loving to her, do nice things, meet her emotional needs.... but her reasons for not wanting sex are not because of a lack of those... and they aren't my reason for the post.<P>I _never_ ask her to do activities she is not comfortable with and my initiation of sex ONLY occurs when we are already being intimate. I have tried on occasion to be the intiator and she politely turned me down to which I kissed her on the forehead and hugged her saying its ok, I have tried simply waiting for her to initiate... and have even allowed her to go as far as she wants without "jumping in" in return many times.<P>I know it is easy to think that a woman doesn't want sex as a result of the man doing something wrong or unwanted but I can assure you this is NOT the case... Her problem with sex stems from bad previous relationships and the fact our relationship as a whole is not the happiest at the moment.<P>What perpetuates the problem I know... I am as good as I can be for as long as I can be and then a snide coment will come out... I know its wrong and I know it doesn't help but there is only so long a person can hold something in, hold in resentment before it slips out... and regardless how long I hold it in it isn't long enough for things to get better.<P>So, please... have a read of the options I stated above and tell me which one you think I should do... if you dont agree with any of them please give me the one that "closest" fits what you would advise and then tell me what part you disagree with....<P>I know you mean well and everything you said is very good advice... but not in my case because I have already been there and done that... it means little to say so but as far as a lover goes every person I have ever been with have expressed how different I am to anybody they have ever known... take that as ego if you want... but they are the facts of my life.

I was just trying to cover the basics.<P>I can think of one option you haven't mentioned: Satisfying yourself. Not as pleasing as making love with the person you love, but a much better option than cheating.<P>What y'all need to do is to address the OTHER problems you're having and quit focusing so much on the lack of sex. Are you sure that you're not putting your sexual needs ahead of the other problems? You've already said that you fight and argue all the time; that's a big turn-off for women. Work on the other problems first. Fix whatever it is you're fighting about, and push the sex need back a little.

Lost Soul -<P>Sorry - But I have to agree with Sweetpea....and you've agreed with her too, actually!!!<P>In your opening post - the first and second paragraphs say it all!!<BR>Except you have one thing wrong in the second - You have not accepted that this is natural due to problems in marriage.<BR>If you did you would have made dang sure that those problems are brought to a swift compromise and solution!!!!!!<P>In your second post - once again you have reinforced the problems as the culprit of the witholding of sex (4th para. from bottom). There, also, you blew by it with a reference to previous relationships......I don't get that?<P>You said the sex was great before the problems. You must have had a compatible sex life at one point - so how come you add in previous relationships to the current situation? <BR>Your "choices" are unfathomable to me for the most part and it sounds like you don't much like them either.... Seems to me your best bet is to do what Sweetpea says - Fix the problems!!!! The quicker you do that - the quicker your W will want you inside her heart, mind and body!!!<P>Good Luck to you both, now get to work!!!<P>Hugs and Strength,<P>Sheba<BR>

LostSoul,<P>I agree with Sweetpea and Sheba. Already knowing and understanding why your W doesn't want to have sex with you is over 50% of the battle. Most people who are resentful because of lack of sex from their spouse either don't know why, or they are in denial about why their spouse is withholding. You know!! Isn't that good? So, all you have to do is start working diligently in correcting those conditions in your marriage that are blocking your intimacy. That is where your priorities should lie.<P>That's the option I'd suggest. And I'd also suggest that your W work as diligently with you. She needs to meet you half way. It sounds like she isn't, and I can understand that is frustrating. Read all the material on this site. There's GREAT relationship repair stuff here. Also, read that book "The Five Love Languages." I bet if you start speaking your W's love language, she will start opening up to you.<P>You sound like an intelligent person who contemplates his decisions thoroughly. You're weighing your options, and you're considering the consequences. That's why I'm pretty confident you won't have an affair. People who have affairs don't do any of those things. They just jump into it and after they crash, all they can say is "Doh!" And then we scurry like little rabbits trying to undo the damage. You are already way beyond that.<P>Good luck to you, I know you will make the right decision.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

For whats if worth, my wife and I read the "Languages of Love" book and it helped us rebuild our marriage. It made us realize that we both really love each other but for over 25 years we had been showing our love to each other NOT in the way the other REALLY NEEDED to see it but rather in how we thought they needed to see it expressed. We made some 'course changes' in our relationship and now things are honestly better than they have ever been. Good luck.

LostSoul:<P>I pick a combination for you. D---first start by seeing a marriage counselor (although it's unclear that you're married). By yourself, if your wife won't go. I'd recommend Steve Harley here at MarriageBuilders---Steve's approach is behavioral-based and very effective. I'd also pick "A", but you need how to learn to do this more effectively.<P>You say all you do is fight and argue. Then you should read "Lovebusters"; order it from this site. Fighting and arguing is bad for a relationship. I don't care even if it is all her fault---there are ways to modify your behaviors so that these fights and arguments cease. And if they do, she'll feel more loving to you. And you've already illustrated what'll happen for you when that happens for your wife.<P>If you can't seem to deal with a one-sided approach, you should read about complete honesty (without lovebusters), the Policy of Joint Agreement, and how to negotiate safely and successfully. If the two of you can come up with a "win-win" situation and stick to it, this will solve your problems. But I think at this point you need to focus on eliminating the lovebusters. Do that with the help of a good behavioral counselor.

Hi LostSoul,<P>I agreed wholeheartedly and completely with K (my thanks to you, K, for your continued common sense, non-threatening answers on this forum!).<P>If you have not tried Dr. Harley's principles on a step-by-step basis, I suggest you consider them. They CAN help. They have helped my H and I in only a little over a month.<P>Hugz and prayers, Thoughtful

Lost Soul,<P>Have you ever heard the phrase "Sex is the fruit of a good marriage."<P>Maybe you need to add to your options -"Stop putting the cart in front of the horse".<P>Perhaps if you start making changes in your marriage for the better, and allow yourself a time frame, read the material such as K suggested, and realize that your real need is for a good marriage FIRST - you will end up having your needs met?<P>I believe a need for sex is really a secondary need to a good marriage. Sex without a good marriage isn't gratifying, much the same as taking care of yourself.

PLEASE DON'T CHEAT!!!!! <P>------------------<BR>You are in my thoughts and prayers.<BR>* Viki

Thank you all for giving your advice... it is very hard on here when you have so little knowledge of a situation so I suppose we all do our best.<P>There are some points I want to make though .<P>1. If one of my top 5 emotional needs is sex, why is it any less valid than any one elses? Some people have said "put it to the back"... that would be like me saying to them to put affection to the back or something else which is their top 5 needs.<P>We both knew sex was important to me from the beginning, just because it isn't on your list doesn't mean I do not have a valid right to have it on mine... I got the feeling from some of the replies I was "bad" for this as if it is not one of the valid possible needs a person has.<P>2. Manual stimulation has been the only outlet I have had up until now but it isn't the same... you have said you know I am an intelligent person so you would also know I have tried the more basic things ;-)<P>3. I _have_ spent the last 6 months learning her language and in meeting her needs. I have seen what I have done acheive success and she has felt better. But we are all human and we cannot be successful 100% of the time. I go for months on end meeting her needs while ignoring my own, fighting the resentment and keeping the Takers at bay. Then the resentment gets the better of me and a comment slips out... she goes back to square one!<P>What kind of a resolution is that? Ignore everything I need for several months, make her feel happy and then one very tiny mistake and we are back at square one. The only person being resolved or feeling better is her? Is it right that I do all the need meeting in the hope that at some stage she will be happy enough to meet mine only to have it fail again and again?<P>4. I only mentioned "previous relationships" because I didn't want to go into a lot of depth about her recent realisation of most of her male friends seeking her company in the hope of sex and nothing else. Her father left when she was young, she had an abusive boyfriend before and only this last year she has looked back over her passed and realised how used she was. She knows that I am not like those other people and that I am the first person who has not used her in that way but that doesn't change her feelings towards sex.<P>5. Councilling... would help if she would consider it but to her she sees it as someone telling her how wrong she is. She refuses to go... even when I phrase it like "I think I need to see someone and talk to them about how I am feeling... I would love to have you there to help me with this, to help me better understand you and better able to help you in the future"... but it doesn't work.<P>What I would _like_ to do *IS* last for 6-12 months in meeting her needs. I am thinking that her timeframe for being "healed" is different to mine and so she might need a lot longer time having her needs met in order to make things better... but I know (and am honest in saying) I am not capable of lasting that long a time period without building resentment to the point of making comments that will be lovebusters.<P>Knowing this, and being intelligent the only conclusion I can see is to somehow have this need in me met... and that by meeting it I *WILL* have the ability to go this great length of time she requires.<P>Your advice that I should learn to deal with it better is something I have attempted to do many times... but this isn't all my fault and it certainly isn't up to ME solely to "do better".<P>Also... you have all used the term "cheating" and "affair"... she has told me to do this and so in effect it wouldn't be cheating... but still my loyalty struggles with it.

Lost Soul,<P>Thanks for a little bit more information about your situation and feelings. It still isn't clear what the "problems" are though?<P>Not to me anyway - it could be just me though - lot of confusion lately!! LOL!<P>Anyway, is it that the problems are her realizations about men using her. Or are there problems within the marriage because of the communication, actions, neglect, lack of affection, etc. I know you said your meeting needs and that's great!!! I'm attempting that myself - that does not, in and of itself, solve the original problems though. Where does this stem from? Why did sex stop in the first place?<P>Those are what we mean. <P>Of course, your sex need should be met = You should keep in mind however that among all "needs" - sex is an absolute total giving of oneself to the other (especially for a woman) much bigger deal than a touch, kiss or just being nice. For a woman, sex is allowing you into her soul!!! She must feel loved, wanted for herself not her mechanics or body parts, and above all : she must feel safe in her trust of you.<P>So try to understand - it's not as easy as saying - it's my need and I should get it!!!! Sorry but it truly doesn't work that way with sex!!!<P>Would she come here? This could be a stepping stone to counseling. She could read and even if she doesn't feel comfortable posting - a lot of us would EMail her privately if she wants.<P>Would this help?<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba <P>Forgot to say - about telling you to look elsewhere for it: Could be one of two reasons that I could think of - 1st - maybe she is thinking of your need above herself and her desire do you really think she wants you to do this? Not likely!!! <BR>2nd - Maybe she's seeing how much love you have for her and if you did this you would prove her right that men will stomp on your heart for sex!!!<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Sheba (edited September 09, 1999).]

>Where does this stem from? <BR>>Why did sex stop in the first place?<P>I believe sex stopped for 2 reasons... one because the relationship started to have problems and two because of her realisation. <P>As for the problems of our relationship itself I believe they stem mainly from her bad relationship with her father. I am a programmer by trade and part of me as a person is Mr Fixit (bad I know), so whenever we talk I try to "fix" her problems. She doesn't take advice very well and anything I say comes across as her being "told".<P>Like I said... I have already made the understanding of a lot of these, I cut her off when she is talking, come across condescending, try to "tell" her what to do etc etc... part of my meeting her emotional needs is in being aware of myself doing that and stopping it. They are habbits of mine which means they will not go away overnight... but I am trying. I now let her get out everything she wants to say and instead of fixing her problems I will now "force" myself to sit back and acknowledge her saying "yes", "I understand", "that must make you feel bad" and things like that.<P>The problem occurs because I am building up a lot of resentment mainly for the fact that I am doing all of this work and she "appears" to be sitting back and just taking it all in. I build her up to a level where she thinks the world is wonderful but instead of giving back to me she keeps taking. I last as long as I can before my resentment comes out in unwanted remarks and she slips back to the beginning.<P>I hope that you can see this now, I know I have explained this situation a couple of times but perhaps it isn't very clear.<P>>Of course, your sex need should be met<BR>>You should keep in mind however that among <BR>>all "needs" - sex is an absolute total <BR>>giving of oneself to the other (especially <BR>>for a woman) much bigger deal than a touch, <BR>>kiss or just being nice. <P>So you are saying that my need for sex is less important than other people's needs? When I say sex I do not mean just intercourse... I am talking about affectionate touching, intimacy, foreplay even just teasing... I would much rather spend 2 hours having foreplay than even 5 seconds having intercourse... in fact if all I had during this time was foreplay I would be happy.... and if all that foreplay was for her pleasure only again I would be happy.<P>I believe that is what you are missing... My sexual need is NOT just to have myself satisfied... geez, if I could spend 2 hours doing nothing else but pleasuring her then I would be completely and totally fulfilled. That is why she knows in her heart I am different to her other relationships, because I have this incredible focus on my partners pleasure over mine... That is what is frustrating me.<P>Not to say that I do not want to receive pleasure myself but it isn't the focus for my emotional need.<P>>For a woman, sex <BR>>is allowing you into her soul!!! She must <BR>>feel loved, wanted for herself not her <BR>>mechanics or body parts, and above all : <BR>>she must feel safe in her trust of you.<P>She knows she is safe in trusting me, she evan admits that isn't in question, as for her body mechanics it isn't what I am after... all these things she says she knows and finds them a great source of strength coming from me... but still there is something there.<P>>So try to understand - it's not as easy as <BR>>saying - it's my need and I should get <BR>>it!!!! Sorry but it truly doesn't work that <BR>>way with sex!!!<P>I dont think that is a fair statement. She has every right to say "Affection" is my need and I should get it... but I cannot replace the word Affection with Sex?<P>You say "it doesn't work that way with sex". That statement tells me that you perceive sex as being less of a need than others. While I am not forcing her to share in it, nor even pushing her to share in it that doesn't mean because its the ugly SEX word I should put it to the back.<P>>Would she come here? <P>No she wouldn't, every time I have tried to approach the topic of even discussing it or reading articles about it there is hostility. I believe she is afraid to face it, much rather allowing it to be "forgotten" and not dealt with. Again I think a lot of this comes from her history with her father and passed relationships.<P>I get the feeling people reading this think it is as simple as approaching it the right way or using the right words... As you can tell I am not an ignorant person... I have tried many way multiple times and none of them have had any difference... even slightly<P>>maybe she is thinking of your need above <BR>>herself and her desire do you really think >she wants you to do this? Not likely!!! <P>Oh I agree completely... she is trying to see that need satisfied and it is precious of her to do so... as for her really wanting this I have to honestly say I think she does. She isn't like most people I have known, having sex used against her in her past has build up for her an attitude that her partner having sex with someone else does NOT hurt her. Of course it could just be talk but you have to trust me on this that I know who she is as a person.<P>My concern is not for hurting her by doing this because I know its something she wants... its about my own feelings. Most guys would jump at the chance having their partner telling them its ok to go out to find other people but my problem is that in doing so I would be telling myself our relationship is over... that is just my loyalty.<P>But... the alternative is to _not_ do it, continue to try as hard as I can, become resentful, make comments and eventually destroy the relationship anyway!!<P>Maybe I should just "bobbit" myself and have done with it :-(<P>>2nd - Maybe she's seeing how much love you <BR>>have for her and if you did this you would <BR>>prove her right that men will stomp on your <BR>>heart for sex!!!<P>Well she already knows I wont but part of me cannot help but thinking with this one thing out of the way fixing our other problems will be much easier... I guess it depends on if it is worth the price.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by LostSoul (edited September 09, 1999).]

Hi Lost Soul -<P>RELAX!!!! I know you are frustrated but you sound (type?) like you're on the defense....Don't be so tense. We just want to help and to do that we have to get a larger picture.....<P>I did not say that the need is less...<P>I said that to fulfill it is greater than most other needs because of the intensity that ANY part of sexual intimacy requires.<P>If she is having intimacy problems then this is why she is having this trouble with it. She must work through the intimacy problem before she can fulfill your need. That is the simplicity - not that you have to just bite your tongue or cut "it" off. It's not so cut and dry on your end - you're left frustrated and neglected in this area. It is cut and dry as to what must be addressed by her to get through the problem with intimacy.<P>Does that help you understand better what I am trying to say?<P>I fully realize you're doing work for this relationship. You can be commended for that. But it is something that you need for your own personal growth also. Do not just think of it as something you do for "her". It is ultimately a way to better yourself.<P>This is not a tit-for-tat scenario. I know that you don't mean to say it is but you still are focusing on what and when you are going to get something out of it. That is not the correct approach and that is why you are building resentments and then LoveBusting. <P>If you've read the posts, then you know that most of the people are in relationships where one person is trying to meet needs......it is not a given that by doing so the other must do it too!! Doesn't happen like that!!!<P>The whole purpose of fulfilling needs is to help your partner see your changes, love and to feel safe that you will be there no matter what. It is only when that is achieved fully, that that partner can be slowly introduced to these same concepts that you are trying to use.<P>I don't know what else to say - it really seems that whatever the cause for her to stop sex with you is what you must realize has to be worked out - until then you will not get sex. I'm not saying that you are the one to singlehandedly fix that - I am saying that you must realize that that is the route to relief.<P>Is this more understandable?<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba <P>

Thanks... sometimes I need to be told to relax, often I feel like things are my fault and that I am soley responsible for their fixing.<P>I know her more than any other person on the face of the earth... and in some ways I know her more than she knows herself because I an not afraid to face things about her she wishes to deny.<P>Why must I always be the one to go first? Always the one to begin the healing? There has never been a case in my life where I have had the "luxury" of sitting back and waiting for someone else to make me happy before me doing the same for them... always it has been me doing the work, putting in the effort and ignoring my Takers to only have the "possibilty" of that love being returned.<P>Is that fair? What possible reason should I bother to go on if that is the case?<P>One thing you missed in my other post, what I consider to be the whole point of this (but obviously you picked up other things as more important) is that the relationship cannot work as it is.<P>It requires one of 2 things to work :<P>a) Some love is returned<BR>b) I find some way to deal with my resentment<P>Why must it be b) that has to happen? I have spent the last 6-8 months dealing with my resentment, learning about myself, growing and doing everything I can... surely it is about time that some a) occured.<P>I am not saying it is tit-for-tat... but it is very easy for people outside the situation to simply say "YOU should do better".<P>I am telling you from the depth of my soul that I am _not_ cabable of dealing with my resentment any more than I already have... and that I have moved 90% of the way here.<P>I understand that until this problem is solved there will be no sex, that isn't a question, what I am saying is that until our problems are resolved I need to find SOME way of not allowing my resentment to get the better of me.<P>Now I have tried everything I can think of to do this... I know it will make me grow, I have been growing for months now, I have tried making it less a priority to me, I have tried focusing on making her happy, tried to see it as good for "our" relationship, as building a foundation, convinced myself its bad to want sex, masturbation, counting sheep, and also to consider that she has a mental problem and I should be patient and respectful of that was the case... but none have worled and the only solution I can come up with is in my original post.<P>I know you possibly dont believe me when I say I have tried everything... but I am intelligent enough to know the difference between denying something to myself and having tried it... luckily I am not one of those people who delludes themselves often <P>At this stage I am very depressed, to plead for help and hear only those things I have already tried is disheartening. It tells me that there is nothing I have missed, nothing I have not thought of that "may" offer a solution.<P>Either way the relationship will fail because she is not willing to offer any help in resolving it... so if it is going to fail why should I choose to hurt myself more than she is hurt?<P>I might as well just go out there and with her blessing gain the "emotional" need that I have, allowing me to come back with enough strength to not resent her when she needs me most.

Well...that was better!!! You were more relaxed.......got a little tense further down.....but better!!! LOL!!!<P>Loosen yourself up, this is a very difficult place that you are in right now. It is not all your fault and nobody has the capability to solve everything in a relationship!!! <P>There's two people in it and it will ultimately take two people to solve it!!<P>Agree?????<P>Why must you always be the one to go first? I don't know!! When you find an answer let me know cuz I fall in the same category!!!!! Perhaps because we want to make things better and like to keep things moving instead of stagnant!! Perhaps we have no problems with expressing our feelings and emotions and therefore seem to try to lead others to being the same!<P>I'm not sure!!! I am luckier than you though because I don't think I have a Taker!!!!! Really - I don't think I ever did!!! Wonder what that means? Hmmmmmmmm?<P>Anyway, no it is not fair that you don't receive in equality to what you give.<BR>You can't control the actions or initiations of others so what can you do? The only choices are to stop giving or change your perspective!! If you give and resent when you aren't offered something to Take and then you resent. I guess you have to look at why you give in the first place. Is it to Take or is it to show love and share yourself and the reward is growth and showing compassion?<P>I did not miss that the relationship cannot work as it is......Of course it can't!!!!! You need to accomplish both your A and B goals.<P>I find it interesting that you did not address what I said about the concepts that we are practicing here at MB.....Why not?<P>By addressing them you answer your question of why you!!!!!<P>Believe me I completely understand!!<P>I have been giving for a very long time - you're in kindergarden as far as time compared to me!!!!! LOL!!<P>My problems began six years ago - life dealt us a few blows and My H and I didn't handle them as a team!! WE snowballed into hell from there!!<P>H started cheating almost 3 years ago, now. I only found this site in May!!<BR>I was pretty much plan A'ing on my own anyway but when I found this place I was able to release my resentments because of the logic of the concepts and the tools available to bring life back on track for myself and hopefully my H along with me.<P>A lot of work has to go into all this - but the possible reward is one that I don't want to miss out on. Even if it is not with H - this stuff is needed for any relationship I may have in the future.....<P>Have you read what people have gone through --- none of this is easy on anyone!!<P>It comes down to how committed you want to be.....how much sacrifice you can handle. It does not come down to why am I doing it all!!! If you're not looking at it COMPLETELY from the perspective of maintaining a positive course and allowing whatever time she needs and doing what you can to reinforce that she can depend on you than you will always have your resentments!!!!!<P>You cannot determine how much time she needs or how much she must give back for what she gets. That approach will not work!!!! <P>All that being said you have a few decisions to make.<P>1) Change your perspective on what these concepts are supposed to accomplish. I would strongly suggest calling for an appointment with Dr Harley. He will be of great help to you!! <P>2) Cheat and have resentments eventually that you were forced to go against your morality.<P>3) Leave the situation entirely<P>4) Come up with a timetable and reinforce to SO that you would like such and such accomplished by this length of time. Show how the problems can be approached and let her know that you will do everything you can but you both must start moving forward and stop the stagnation before it kills your love for each other. **Note - you MUST be ready to follow through with ending relationship and realize the LoveBusting consequences of such an ultimatim.<P>The only thing else I can say is too reinforce that this is not an easy thing for any of us and we all have to go by our own thresholds of what we can handle. <P>Have you gone to counseling by yourself?<BR>She doesn't have to go in order for you to start!! I have suggested Dr Harley.<BR>If you have a behavioral counselor around that has been successful in dealing with relationship conflict solutions for the here and now and can possibly integrate the Harley principles that would be fantastic.<P>I know that you want a specific answer!! <BR>There isn't one - and I think you know that. It's all in your own outlook and limitations.<P>I will have you two in my prayers!!<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba<P>PS - RELAX!!!!! (Smiley Face)

I go with K & Rosy Palmer!

LostSoul,<P>I read more of your situation, and I have a question for you. You repeatedly say you want to get someone to fulfill this one need: sex. So, are you saying that is absolutely the only thing you will have this other person for? Sex only? That's going to be really hard to find, unless you are thinking in terms of a prostitute. That's the only woman you could trust to accept being only your sex partner. Other women may agree in the beginning to having sex with you when you love only your W, but what they're really thinking is that through the sex they will be able to make you fall in love with them. Remember the movie "Fatal Attraction?"<P>I guess what I'm saying is, it's a pretty well established idea that women seek love, whereas men like you, seek sex. (Not saying this is a bad thing, just a Mars/Venus thing.) So, if you proceed you really need to consider this.<P>Life isn't always fair, ya know? I still believe that when you have knowledge, communication, and know the reasons why your spouse is behaving as she is, you're too far ahead of the game to have an affair. You know too much, and that's a good thing. People who have affairs don't know. We react on assumptions, miscommunications, and lies. <P>I know you're toying with the idea, but you won't have an affair. You don't fit the M.O.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Hi Lost Soul,<BR>I had to sleep on this one, but felt a need to address your questions from the first time I read your post, as I can maybe offer some insights from the "frigid wife" point of view. <BR>You have not said that either one of you has been involved in an affair. Is that the case? Are we talking "affair prevention" strategies here? If that is true, than there is hope.<BR>I have little time so I will try to be concise. <BR>Two years into my marriage, I was attacked in my own home by a man looking for money and whatever. When he could not find money he decided to go for the whatever. By the gravce of God, a neighbor walked in before he could rape my body. He did however, manage to rape my spirit. For years after that I had to be treated with kid gloves by my H for him to loosen me up enough to even consider having sex. I had to have a few drinks, he had to touch me in a certain order, no grabbing of breasts or buttocks, unless much time had been spend kissing. Compounded with the fact that he was gone two weeks of each month, our sex life dwindled to no more than two times a month. I would wake in cold fear, screaming if he came home in the nite and even got in the bed without first alerting me of his presence. We still managed to connect sexually during the next 4 years, concieved 2 more children, but it was not enough, for either one of us really, but the cycle could not be broken. I did not receive counceling. After about 5 years of this, my H told me he was tired of meeting rejection when he made ovetures. Tired of hearing remarks about what he was doing wrong in his approach, and that from now on any sex we engaged in would have to be at my instigation. That worked for me, at first. But along with his withdrawal of approaching me sexually, he also withdrew his non-sexual affection toward me. The only times we had sex were when I wrapped myself in cleophane, or psyched myself up with some exotic scenario to act out, ie, accosting him in the barn late at night, leaving a note trail for him to follow, etc. These incidents happened less than 12 times in one year. I almost always had to have a few drinks before even beginning the game. Even then, the act felt mechanical and I don't think either one of us were really satisfied. My needs for affections and sex were more often met by fantacies or romance novels. He, until 3 years ago, met his needs by himself. (Well, there was a one nite stand he admitted to back in 1991) <BR>About 5 years ago a friend, knowing some of our problems, gave me a "toy" complete with batteries. Don't get me wrong, my H has always worked very diligently to help me achieve orgasm, but the efforts required to get me there were stressful and once achieved I did not feel that hunger again for a long time and assumed he could wait awhile for a repeat performance. The big "O" was fun but way too much work!<P>To be continued....<P>Have to go to work....Will try to finish once there...<BR>How's that for a cliff hanger? <P>Ok, I am back to finish the tale...<P>Five years, or so ago, when I got the present from my friend, a whole new world began to open up for me. My new toy was very patient with me, had no expectations and did not have to be pleased in any way, as long as I fed it batteries once in a while. I was in control. That may be the key right there. I had the control. I did not have to "submit" to anyone but myself and I trusted myself not to hurt me. I forgave myself if the progress of the "experience" was slow or ineffectual! I learned what felt good and how to make it happen. Slowly, my inhibitions, with myself and my expectations relaxed and I began to experience some of what all the fuss is about. I became more eager to repeat the feelings with my H and became somewhat more aggressive toward him. Unbeknownst to me, however, he had found another source to meet his sexual needs. That was 3 years ago. Because of his new found addiction, he had little or no interest in setting himself up for the rejection he had experienced from me in the past, so he still did not approach me for sex. If even got so bad, the first year of the OW, that he not only rejected my advances, but had become the epitome of the butthole, several people have mentioned their spouses became while emmeshed in an affair. He thought that once I discovered the OW, it would be all over anyway so he may as well try to make me mad enough to leave him before the affair was revealed. He will say, even today, that his relationship with her had nothing to do with the progress, or lack thereof, of our relationship.HMMMMM. The roles became reversed and I became the rejected, sexually frustrated spouse!<BR>Now, you may ask, how does this apply to your situation? Am I suggesting you get your wife a toy? Maybe. Worked for me. <BR>Get her a toy, then leave town or go live with your mom for a couple of weeks. Or get her a toy, but ask her to play with it ON you so she won't have to submit totally that way. <BR> Am I suggesting you have an affair? NOOOOOO.<P>When I discover the OW I, like everyone else here, was devestated. I could not believe that my H valued sex more highly than he did my feelings! Hell, he had not even been the aggressor for 7 or 8 years with me, I thought it was not that important to him!<BR>On the other hand, my reawakened sexuality, made it possible to me to more easily relate to the feelings he must have been having when the OW (who was married and sexually frustrated herself) offered herself to him. It also made it possible for me to throw all inhibitions to the wind to reclaim what was mine and prove that, yes indeed, people can change. Since discovery six months ago, during withdrawal, during recovery, our sex life has never been better. It is as if we are making up for lost time. I will never again let him feel unloved or undesirable and he is responding in kind. Sex is the most intimate and rawly honest expression of love there is, and when you almost lose the "love of your life" because of something which can be fixed you realize how important it is to keep the fix!<P>Well, that's just my take on our situation. I may have muddied my points somewhat, but maybe you can wade through the water enough to get some insight into where your situation is now, and where it could be tomorrow. Print this out and let your Wife read this if you think it would help. The idea of "control" could be debated further.<P>Good Luck and keep us posted.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Pilot's wife (edited September 10, 1999).]