Writer...<P>Your ignorance is making me feel ill.<P>I am sorry to be harsh but the longer you don't see the two as equal, and that you are living a double standard the more you risk losing your husband to your blindness...<P>I had originally written a lot in here but what is the use... you are unreachable, I pity your husband as I pity myself.<P>PS : Sorry Doug, I have lost my cool, its people like this that I personally believe are the reason there is so much infidelity.<P>Appologies to everyone who reads this but I have been lovebusted by a stranger on the other side of the world... don't ask me why but thats the bottom line.

LostSoul:<BR>Whoa, dude! Calm down. It's obvious that writer does not agree that there's a double standard, but I'm not surprised, and I certainly don't feel personally attacked! Unfortunately, the viewpoint--that there are emotional needs, and then there's sexual fulfillment--is pretty common. Dr. Harley presents ample clinical evidence to refute this, but many people's reaction is to 'shoot the messenger'.<P>Writer:<BR>I won't debate that there's a double standard. It seems to me that you yourself view a denied need for sexual fulfillment as an unimportant thing. Yet a similar denial of affection would send you to a counselor. What WOULD you call that difference? I would call it: "What's important to someone else is not nearly as important as what's important to me."<P>You might want to do an experiment. You said that often when your husband is considerate of your desire not to have sex, you feel so warmly towards him, you often have sex anyway. Next time DON'T agree to have sex. And the next time and the next time. Continue refusing for at least three months. Do you think your husband will continue to be so understanding?<P>He will, however, have much stronger forearms! <BR> <P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Doug (edited September 13, 1999).]

Doug, you misunderstand me. I would go to a counselor if we were having troubles about affection OR sex. I think they are related and both important.<P>I don't think I have a double standard, because while I think it is ok for me (or my husband) to occasionally turn down sex, I also think it is okay for him (or me) to occasionally withhold affection - say, "I'm tired, can't talk now, can't rub your back now."<P>Don't worry, if I turned down sex for three months, we would know that something was wrong, and we would do something about it.<P>I don't see what's the big deal about a "double standard." I like sex, I think it's important, and I have plenty.<P>Lost Soul, I pity you, too. But, don't waste your time pitying my husband or worrying that my marriage is in trouble - I really think it's pretty much okay.<P>And I think it's a little funny (I'm sorry but I do) that you, a person who is in a marriage that you admit is troubled and who is actively thinking of cheating - would say that "people like me" are the reason there is so much infidelity.<P>Excuse me? I take my marriage vows extremely seriously, and so does my husband. We are not only lovers, we are best friends. We do everything we can in our busy lives to put our relationship first. WE HAVE GOOD SEX. <P>I don't mean to rub this in your face, since you are obviously unhappy. But, it seems to me that perhaps you are - maybe just a little - enjoying your unhappiness. And, you resist any suggestions that might actually involve doing something to change things....<P>I don't really mean to be harsh. I'm not offended by your remarks toward me, and I hope you are not by mine. You can have your opinions and I can have mine, and that is fine. Time to move on.<P>

Doug:<P>Thanks for the support but still it doesn't help. People will always find a way to justify their view point to the degree of throwing common sense out the window... hey I myself do that on occasion <P>I do see a difference between sex and affection actually... one you never expect to be missing for more than perhaps a few hours and the other women seem to think can go on for a month or more without concern... I am sure if her husband said he didn't feel like being affectionate for the next 28 days she would be throwing fits.<P>writer:<P>I am sorry I lost my cool but I have never been the kind of person to take ignorance well, especially blinded ignorance but that isn't for this discussion as we have already proved an inability to agree on this.<P>I do enjoy how you found my statement that people like you cause infidelity funny. You said "get over it, it wont kill you, its not really the same as affection" which is the exact reason why this emotional need of mine is going unmet. Its been proved in the passed infidelity is caused by emotional needs not being met and therefor I am looking to have my needs met.<P>Why is that so funny? You wouldn't be here and in this channel unless one of you were unfaithful to the other??? I suppose it had absolutely NOTHING to do with some of your views and it was all his fault right?<P>You dont see a big deal about a double standard? Of course not.. because you are on the "good" end of it... if we were talking about you having to work 40 hours a week for half the money as a man you would be screaming blue murder, double standard and everything else.<P>I think doug was right... it seems you have this unrealistic attitude of "Its ok for me but NOT for anyone else"... do you actually realise how HURTFUL such an attitude is? I guess I am very susceptable at the mement and so seeing this attitude even in a post on here was enough to hurt me.<P>But then you dont bother to stop and think what your actions will do do you? Nope... you just sit back and think of how YOU feel and decide that is how the rest of the world must feel.<P>I am sorry but if you cannot see that what you think hurts others then I truely hope your husband isn't as sensitive as I am... because sooner or later a selfish attitude like that is going to make him look for someone without it.

I suspect there's nothing to be accomplished here anymore.<P>It's late. How 'bout we hop a jet to Geneva and negotiate a truce? Then we'll head down to the biergarten and consume adult beverages until we don't care who's right!<P>Goodnight you guys. I wish us all a little piece on earth.

I know its been a lot of posts later.. but I have been wanting to reply.. am no longer a silent suffering reader of these discussions.<BR>Your Topic and description of your needs and problems are too similar to mine.. except I did not get permission.<P>Don't cheat!<P>Do get individual counceling<BR>yes she needs to go too.. but you first..<BR>your councelor can help you perhaps convince her to join you.<BR>Use the marriage builder techniques!<BR>up with love units.. down with love busters<BR>If you have to.. let her know in a kind but <BR>string manner the seriousmess of your needs<BR>and the need to begin a resolution..<BR>leaving her and making her see the seriousness (sorta like plan B.. but not to leave a lover.. to work with you and a councelor) could work and feel better then cheating.<P>I have no credentials to tell you these things..<BR>These are all the things I did not do.<P>The hurt I feel now and have caused others<BR>by cheating way surpasses the hurt I felt when my emotional need for closenes and sex was not met. (and I so thought it was so bad then I could not keep from crossing the line)<BR>I wish I had this forum then.<BR>

I am getting tired of saying these things but perhaps I am being too rough considering the amount of text in here.<P>>except I did not get permission.<P>I never sought permission... it was GIVEN to me.<P>>Do get individual counceling<P>I have had counceling and we even discussed the effectiveness of councelling with them. Its an interesting quandry but after meeting with a few different people their conclusion was that I have already followed all of the paths of logic they would take me through, have already done/thought the suggestions they have made and that I would gain just as much improvement thinking on my own as I have gained through councelling.<P>>yes she needs to go too.. but you first..<P>She refuses regardless of how approached<P>>your councelor can help you perhaps <BR>>convince her to join you.<P>tried that, all natural and unnatural methods of asking her to attent have failed.<P>>Use the marriage builder techniques!<P>Have been for 9 months.. The only one who has improved is her. She is now over the moon with life in general... providing I dont ask anything for myself and allow her to concentrate on herself only.<P>Instead of using her state of intimacy to return love for me as this advice suggests it has only made her more selfish and inwardly focusing.<P>>up with love units.. down with love busters<P>I do 10-20 things right and gain perhaps 10-20 love points over the space of 2 months and then with a single comment in a single breath take away 100 love points in a second.<P>I dont think there is a human alive that is capable of suffering so many love busters themselves while not slipping up occasionally.<P>>If you have to.. let her know in a kind but <BR>>string manner the seriousmess of your needs<BR>>and the need to begin a resolution..<P>Now why didn't I think of that? (sarcastic voice).<P>This approach done with great affection, care and concern has met with verbally violent reactions. Any sentance that contains both the words "my" and "needs" in it result this way. I even repeated word for word (good memory) what a councellor told me to using the correct tone of voice and still it came back to :<P>"You back on THAT again? Why can't you let me be happy for more than a few months before you start wanting something back... *I'M* happy here... dont spoil it"<P>>leaving her and making her see the <BR>>seriousness (sorta like plan B.. but not to <BR>>leave a lover.. to work with you and a <BR>>councelor) could work and feel better then <BR>>cheating.<P>Like I said... there is no cheating involves as far as she is concerned... the only person that would be cheating is me cheating myself.<P>But thank you for repeating what everyone else has said, everything else that has failed and making it sound all so simple.<P>To those who think I dont WANT a solution... I guess you dont know desperation an depression when you see it

"..desperation an depression when you see it"<P>I know it.. I see it<P>I feel for you.. hang in there<BR>