First, I am a very spiritual person - I just don't identify with any organized religion. Maybe it's because of what I just witnessed. My wife's OM bringing his own family home from Easter services. They all waved to me except OM, of course. They claim to be devout Catholics. A few minutes later OM drives back by, stone faced like he always is when we have a chance to interact. Now I expect he'll spend the reat of the day with my wife and son.<P>What don't I understand?<P>WAT

Worth A Try,<P>No person is perfect in his or her actions regarding faith. (Except perhaps the Buddah, but that's open to interpretation.... )<P>The point is, don't condemn all Catholics or all Christians because of the actions of this one. He is not following the path. He knows it even if he is not willing to accept it yet.<P>You take care of yourself and your spiritual life. Your life is the only one you have any control over.<P>Hang in there.<P>All the best.<BR>--HBC

HBC - thanks for the reply - I understand no one is perfect, myself included, but it's frustrating to see such blatant hypocrisy. Oh, did I mention he was also a pallbearer in my son's funeral?<P>I didn't intend to condemn any particular faith - only individuals who masquerade as righteous despite their actions that contradict their chosen religion.<P>To quote one of my favorite Jimmy Buffett lyrics, "There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning."<P>The Big Guy sure can be a kidder sometimes.<P>WAT

Worthatry-- I can't pass this one up. My daughter has been having an A with a Morman Bishop (that is like the paster). He has 4 kids under the age of 11. Daughter is single. People live this fantasy in every walk of life. I'm sory you have to see this, it gives Christians a bad rap.<P>------------------<BR>Marry

My OW (also a devout Catholic) gave my husband a St Christopher's to "watch over him" when she was not around.<P>I laughed at the hypocricy of it all - a married Catholic woman asking the Saints to watch over her married lover while they are cheating?<P>Never missed a day in church though, her children went to the Christian school - really makes you wonder.<P>Also here is the extent of conversations they had together - my H does not believe in god!<BR>

Not to cast more bad light on Catholics (I was raised as one and know a lot of nice ones), but maybe the more well-known the "rules" of a particular denomination are, the more shocking it seems when members of that faith act in such obviously contrary ways. As most know, divorce is prohibited for members of the Catholic church. I'll never forget one evening when my mother was at our home, talking to my father about how "unfair" it was that people who had enough money could "pay" for an annullment (the only way a marriage can end and allow the persons involved to remarry within the church) and that the church was corrupt, etc...Well, this was AFTER she and my father had divorced (my father tried to avoid D. until he nearly lost his sanity), which happened AFTER she had not one but two affairs...and she was angry at the church because she would not be able to marry OM #2 and still be a Catholic. Obviously, she didn't consider that either a) she didn't really believe in the tenets of Catholicism or b) she had made a big mistake. I know now that it was all part of what wayward spouses do to look everywhere but within themselves for fault, blame, etc.--I guess if the church would've let her have an annullment, she would've been guilt-free (I wonder if my brother and I would've then become illegitimate??) octavia99

Welcome back Dave,<P>Hope you had a good trip. Can't resist chiming in on this one. My wife's OM is a Catholic, and I suspect that is part of the reason his parents said they'd disown him if he had any involvement with a married woman. Didn't stop him, and she has even attended his Church.

Hi Dave...<P>You're right! It is pure unadulterated hypocrisy!<P>But like many "faithful" christians and "faith-filled" non-christians...<BR>...their beliefs are shallow and lack any depth of the laws written on their hearts!<BR>...superficial at best!<P>I would suggest to you...<BR>...to speak to the parish priest at the church they(WS & OM) go to...<BR>...there is nothing to be fearful here...<BR>...he (the priest) will not throw you out...<BR>...nor chastise you!<P>Speak to him about <B>your</B> concerns...<BR>Speak to him about the "sanctity" of your marriage vows...<BR>Speak to him about the marriage "covenant"...<P>You can ask him to speak to the OM...<BR>...it is the priest's job to straighten out this man in the truths of his faith!<P>Do ask about the annulment process (you and your W <B>may</B> have to go through)...<BR>...perhaps the OM as well if he was divorced!<P>No... an annulment is <B>NOT</B> a Catholic divorce...<BR>...and NO... it can not legitimately be "bought"!<BR>It it though... you may find out... it may be a step forward for you (and for your W) and through her!<P>Discover (not the Catholic faith)...<BR>...but one more external influence on your W...<BR>...(Steve told me "other" need to bring a message to my WS)..<BR>...and get all to bear pressure on your W...<BR>Love Buster?... maybe...<BR>...seeking truth and honesty... may give you that justification!<P>You have been told to stick with Plan A...<BR>...stick it out as long as you can!<P> <P>Jim<P>BTW octavia99...<BR>The Catholic church <B>does</B> allow divorce/separation in certain situations... (abusive situations and the like... and in these cases, even encourages the separation!)<BR>...and...<BR>If "money could "pay" for an annullment..." (i.e you can <B>buy</B> an annulment)... you have found a disloyal diocese... not a corrupt church... a diocese that does this needs and ought to be exposed.

Unfortuately churches of all denominations are filled with hypocrites..... <P>Some day this man will face God and his own actions and he won't be able to worm his way out of it. What will God do? I don't know, but I have His promise that He will deal with unconfessed sin. <P>Keep your eyes on Him...He won't ever let you down.<P>------------------<BR>"They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31

Thanks NSR/Jim for the info...I did not know the Catholic church allows divorce in certain situations. I wish my father would've known, because I think he felt he was having to give up on being Catholic when he finally had to give up on his marriage (he eventually remarried a non-Catholic, so I'm not sure what he would've needed to do in that situation). I just wanted to add, I don't believe my mother's allegations about "buying" annulments were based on fact; ironically, at the time I was taking a course in Christian Marriage (I was at a Jesuit university, not yet married) and I knew all about the annulment process, the prof. was on the Tribunal of the diocese. So I told my mother what she needed to do, i.e., establish that one or more of the "goods" of marriage was not in the mind of one or both of the spouses at the time of the marriage..but I think she didn't really want to go through the process. Thanks, octavia99

I have nothing really enlightening to say, except that we are all susceptible. In fact, we should be able to look a "sinner" in the eyes and see ourselves there.<P>I am a Catholic, and so is my H....who is the very WS!!!<P>And the OW comes from a very conservative christian family in which her parents were missionaries in Asia...where she grew up. One of her favorite lines prior to the affair was "anyone who didn't take the bible literally is misguided".<P><BR>So, we are all susceptible. The unfortunate part of this is that we all get trapped by our lies..... They become our prisons... And pride is the first deadly sin....<P>But we all need to be aware.

Hi there,<P> The hypocrisy is EVERYWHERE!!... affairs are equal opportunity.<P> The OW in our case was a born again, church going (twice on Sun) believer who believed God sent her my H!....She wasn't crazy about Catholics (my H is Catholic) since they don't take the bible literally ...but somehow she made an exception for my H!..........LU

I'm a Catholic and so is my stbx H. He had the multiple affairs - and he used to attend Catholic mass with his lover.<P>He has since then quit going to church all together. <P>I think it hurts and makes us a more than a little outraged, but in light of everything else that they are doing, it shouldn't be a surprise. It's just more of the fog.<P>

It seems odd, doesn't it? A few simple moral rules are too hard to follow, even for the faithful?<P>My first reaction when I read this post was to think "don't judge the entire religion by a few bad apples." Now that I've had time to think about it, I've come up with a few ideas. This is just my opinion, so bear with me.<P>I've noticed that many modern Christian sects tend to focus a little too much on the ease with which a sin can be forgiven. I remember having long discussions in college with some of the more aggressive Christian fellowships on campus. I was always taught that your actions, thoughts, and deeds were more important than what religion you subscribed to or how often you attended church. I was taught that if and when Judgement Day comes, you should be able to look back upon your life and not be ashamed of how you lived your life. In other words, don't just give lip service to the Golden Rule, apply it and use it every day of your life.<P>What I found, in talking to these people, was that how you lived your life mattered very little. The only thing they cared about was whether or not you had been "saved," especially if they personally saved you! I pressed a few of these self-styled preachers on this issue. I would say things like "...so if Hitler genuinely repented his sins, and became Born Again, he would be allowed into Heaven, but Buddha would burn in Hell unless he was saved?"<P>Inevitably I could get them to agree that a life of sin, followed by a deathbed Salvation was a better bet than a righteous life without Salvation.<P>Here is where the problem lies: Some (not all, but some) Christian sects preach that no matter how terrible your sins, you can be forgiven. That is literally true, but some faiths have taken the concept a little too liberally. Catholicism has adopted the Confession to deal with this problem. Did you sin this weekend? No problem! Just go to Confession, say a few Hail Marys and all will be forgiven! Many Protestant faiths are far too willing to forgive sin at the drop of a hat...Jim Bakker and Jesse Jackson haven't exactly been taken to task by their respective faiths!<P>What I'm getting at is that by focusing on the promise of forgiveness, many churches have given tacit approval to the sinner. Insead of preaching "Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery" and sticking to that doctrine, it has deteriorated into "Thou Really Shouldn't Commit Adultery but If You Do, It's Okay Because We're All Human and We Make Mistakes."<P>Just a reality check, folks...they're COMMANDMENTS, not suggestions!

Good to see you back Dave!! Hope you had a wonderful time in Florida with your son!<P>As for hypocrisy---it's not only Catholics, believe me. My H was a deacon in our church when he started his affair. He had to step down from his position, and didn't really understand why. DUH!!! In fact, the first time he slept with OW was literally when he was supposed to be at a church council meeting. <P>At one time, he justified what he was doing by saying that all sins are equal, so noone else is any better than he is because we all sin. That is what I call some serious fog!<P>

The Catholic church has not <B><I>just now</I></B> "adopted" confession...<BR>...it's been around since the beginning of the early Christian Chruch...<BR>...in fact since the beginning of God's covenant with His people...<BR> <BR><B>Matthew 16:19</B>...<BR>And I will give to thee (Simon/Peter) the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And <B><I>whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.</I></B><P>and <B>Matthew 18:17-18</B>...<BR>...If he refuses to listen to them, <I>tell it to the church</I>; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. Amen I say to you, <B><I>whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.</I></B><P>And as far as... "Did you sin this weekend? No problem! Just go to Confession, say a few Hail Marys and all will be forgiven..."... <BR><B>Not really</B>... <BR>As Jesus told the adulteress (to be stoned)... in <B>John 8:11</B>...<BR>...Who said: No man, Lord. And Jesus said: Neither will I condemn thee. Go, <B>and now sin no more.</B><P>Confession does <B>not</B> give one carte blanche...<BR>...if you confess with the intention of continuing a sinful life... ...adultery or whatever..<BR>...the confession/absolution is meaningless... and makes the confession a sin in and of itself.<BR>Check out <B>Matthew 21:28</B>...<BR>"What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, `Son, go and work today in the vineyard. `I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went. "Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, `I will, sir,' but he did not go. "Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you <B>did not repent</B> and believe him.<P>*** Repentance <B>is the key</B> ***<P>And I do agree...<BR><B>John 15:1</B>...<BR>If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; as I also have kept my Father's commandments, and do abide in his love.<BR>...and...<BR><B>Matthew 5:17</B>...<BR>Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

Hi WAT - Welcome Back, and way to get things rolling this Monday morning. I think you know that I've kind of given you similar advice that NSR gave you - so we both can't be wrong . I thought, too, that the OM was not "with" his family anymore. Did he just pop in to pick up the kids or something? I thought his marriage was pretty much over, but maybe I read wrong. Not that it matters, but I still think you should talk to the parish priest.<P>Anyway, for the record, I am Catholic - was raised Catholic, always went to Catholic Church, but didn't always practice the teachings of my church. For me, I don't think it's so much what you believe in, but your relationship - that personal, one-on-one relationship - with God that matters. <P>For me, and to its credit, it was my Catholic upbringing that really turned me around. Teachings on divorce - that's what woke me up, helped to break me out of my fantasy affair world. But, it wasn't policy or procedure that saved me, that turned my heart around, it was rebuilding my relationship with God, that saved me.<P>I don't think you can stove-pipe any person. For me, I went to confession, confessed the affair - but why then did I try to commit suicide - why was I that desperate - God had forgiven me right? My H had forgiven me, right? So, why did I still feel ashamed to go to church, why did I doubt that I was "worth" it, worth the mercy, worth the forgiveness, worth being loved? For me, if nothing else, I always had the fear of God in me. And, if nothing else, this experience has humbled me before God, and before my fellow human beings.<P>I think forgiveness is a gift and one of the foundations on which the Christian faith is based. None of us deserve that gift, but God still grants it - even to someone like me. Just because I have been forgiven doesn't mean I think adultery is right, or acceptable. People make mistakes, and I for one am very glad that I was welcomed back into the church and was not told how awful of a person I was. I already knew that.<P>When I went to confession, I was fully expecting to be yelled at by the priest, judged, condemned, excommunicated. To my surprise, not only did the priest console me, but he actually welcomed me back to the church. If someone would have told me, again, how bad of a person I really was, how un-deserving I really was - well, I probably wouldn't be here writing this post and I probably wouldn't have been able to really appreciate God's saving grace. <P>When you've lost everything - not just physically, but spiritually - when you can't get up in the morning, when you can't look at yourself in the mirror, when your eyes are so swollen from crying that you can barely them; when all you do is sleep to help the days go by, when you can't go to work, when you can't think of anything else; when you want to stop existing altogether - to me, well, it's not the righteous who God hears calling to him for help, it's not the righteous who need saving - it's people like me, people who don't deserve to be saved who God wants to save, who God wants to console, and who God wants to forgive and live and happy life.<P>Oh, yea, I used to go to church, sit, stand, kneel, take communion, look at my watch see how much time was left and then hot-tail it out of the parking lot. But now, after all I have been through, I normally cannot make it through mass without crying - not tears of sadness, but tears of joy - that I believe in a merciful God, a forgiving God, a God who still searches for me even when I have strayed. I believe in the church, I believe in God, and I believe in Jesus Christ, and I believe in the Holy Spirit. That is what saved me - not that I knew I would be punished for my sins, but that regardless of my sins, I would be saved.<P>No, I don't deserve God's love and mercy, but I do believe I have it, and I cannot tell you how much I appreciate that gift. And, while I wish I could un-do everything, most things I have ever done in my life, I am truly thankful that even out of bad, God was able to do good in my life.<P>It was not my H meeting my needs, it was not me coming out of the fog, it was not no contact - it was God who restored me and my marriage. Yes, I had to end the A, I had to send the no contact letter, I had to work with my H to communicate better, but it was God who heard and answered my prayer - a simple, little prayer - and touched my heart in no way that I can express. Tha's why I am still here, posting after more than a year. It's not because the church tells me to, it's not because it's part of my penance. <P>I really cannot explain how God has changed my life, and I know a lot of people may think I've gone off the deep end, but I am filled with so much joy right now - a kind of joy and contentment that I haven't felt since as long as I can remember - that's what I want other WSs to feel. And that didn't come from anything I did - or anything my H did. It came from God and God alone. <P>Cjack said: "What I'm getting at is that by focusing on the promise of forgiveness, many churches have given tacit approval to the sinner." <P>I do not think that is the case at all. I think we "sinners" who have a distorted view of reality attach that meaning to justify our behavior. Granted, while some people may not have a strong relationship with God may try to twist and turn things around to serve their benefit, I doubt any religion says its okay to have an affair. They are not approving the behavior, but for someone who is repentent, truly repentent, I think they are giving hope that all is not lost on a single act of stupidity or even on several acts of stupidity.<P>And, I think that is what gives hope to a lot of people who do need that hope. I honestly believe that it is I and I alone who will be accountable for everything I have done and have not done in my life. While I whole-heartedly believe in "preaching "Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery" and sticking to that doctrine," there are going to be people who give into temptation, their are going to be people who stray. So, what do we do with them - send them straight to Hell? We are all human and we all have made mistakes. Again, God loves the righteous but they really don't need saving. It is the sinners who need saving. Yes, preach that adultery is wrong, but when committed it is not by an earthly judge by which you are judged. <P>Yes, they are commandments, not suggestions. But, for me too, God's promise of his son, also is a promise of forgiveness. I have in no way ever said that what I did was right or morally accepted, but God accepts me anyway, I do have redeeming value in his eyes. For me, I heard for all 33 of my years that adultery was wrong, did that stop me? No. But what turned me around, it wasn't be realizing that adultery is wrong (which it is) but it was finally living the faith that I had believed in for so long.<P>Anyway, long post. Must be the caffeine, but just thought I'd throw in my two cents from a "repentent" WS perspective. Hope I didn't offend anyone, this is what I believe. And, I'm sorry if I got "of-track."

Thanks to all who chimed in. I guess I was in a naive mode when this struck me - maybe it was the actual sight of hypocrisy in motion that set me off. Hypocrisy is just a subset of dishonesty, and there's plenty of that to go around in an affair, so I shouldn't be surprised by the behavior of OM - and my wife, for that matter. She started attending the Catholic church about the same time as the A started.<P>I plan on taking Jim and SKM's advice and contact the Priest for some insight. I am a bit concerned that this will all get back to my wife as an LB for meddling in her life. Too bad. BTW, SKM, OM does not live with his family - he moved out just prior to my wife moving out last summer. I don't know the current relationship.<P>Dave

<B>SKM</B><P>So beautifully said... <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>No, I don't deserve God's love and mercy, but I do believe I have it... . It came from God and God alone....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...has humbled me before God, and before my fellow human beings... When you've lost everything...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> (the sense of joining Christ in His sacrifice)<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>God's promise of his son, also is a promise of forgiveness... it was finally living the faith that I had believed in for so long....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <P>Faith, Hope and Charity(Love)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NSR:<BR><B>The Catholic church has not [b]<I>just now</I></B> "adopted" confession...<BR>...it's been around since the beginning of the early Christian Chruch...<BR>...in fact since the beginning of God's covenant with His people...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Allow me to clarify, since I've apparently riled you up a bit. That was not my intention, nor was it my intention to offend anyone. I didn't mean to say the Catholic church recently added Confession. What I meant to say is that <B> some </B> people view Confession as carte blanche.<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Confession does <B>not</B> give one carte blanche...<BR>...if you confess with the intention of continuing a sinful life... ...adultery or whatever..<BR>...the confession/absolution is meaningless... and makes the confession a sin in and of itself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thank you for clarifying what I was trying to say!<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>*** Repentance <B>is the key</B> ***<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Bingo! <P>Perhaps I did not make my point clearly enough. I feel that <B>some</B> people (like WAT's OM) apparently think that sins are okay, as long as you plan to atone for them at some point. I have noticed <B>some</B> churches and/or preachers teaching forgiveness before righteousness. That is putting the cart before the horse, as I see it. When people with a little less moral fiber are told from the get-go that forgiveness is not only possible but <B>easy to obtain</B> they are perhaps less apt to have second thoughts before committing a sin.<p>[This message has been edited by cjack (edited April 16, 2001).]