This is a quote from mon's topic that I feel needs to be addressed.<P>Quote by Sad_and_lonely.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am the ws. I was present for all (4) of my kids births, and everyday in the hosp, despite a demanding job. However, at this point in my life, and being in the withdrawal stage of marriage (and kids raised), I made friends (innocently) with a married woman (in a similar marriage), we became EA after some time, and here I am, asking my wife for a divorce. Not to be with the ow, who is not leaveing (but is now even more distraught over what she feels is a emotionally hopeless marriage), but because the affair refocused me on how empty our marriage was and why should we live like that. My wife is focused on the affair (and my guilt, and essentially refuses to deal with the previous 23 years, and whether we should even be married. Needless to say, right or wrong, the additional emotional pushing away is not making me feel like the marriage is worth saving, however it is understandable. I am not really focused on who is at fault for the 23 years, and we tried frequently to fix it, to no avail. What I say to her is that I think I am unable to make her happy (and folks I don't think happy is a 4-letter word), I will support her financially forever (she was a sahm), be whatever support she wants me to be (and I can see us be good friends, maybe), I just don't think we make good life partners. Fact is, I don't know why she loves me, all I do is take care of her, we are not friends, have never been, and just irritate each other if we get into emotions at all. I think mostly she is just use to me, and scared of being alone, not good reasons to be intimate partners IMO. The ow did not help our marriage in her mind, I think she did, it got me out of my funk, and alive again. It puzzles, actually even annoys me some (but then again it is a MB site, so I do understand), that the focus seems to be on "saving" marriages, whether the people want to be in them or not. I don't hate, or dislike my wife, I just don't want to spend another 30 years of this, or 30 years of "working" hard just be tolerable. I will neve bond with her, I know that, why is the assumption all ws are just depraved moral losers? Ok, the affair was wrong, and I will never allow myself to get to know a married woman that well again, but I am not a bad person, or an unethical person. It may be fog, but I do think we developed a love for each other that would have happened just the same if single (and that would then be ok, same love, just different circumstances), we are not users, or uncommitted people, we are just people in unhappy marriages who have tried for decades and gave up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I really don't think you are as convinced of the death of your marriage as you would like to think you are...I think you are using this as an excuse to leave. You had an EA and it was wonderful!!! Aren't they all. But if you leave your marriage expecting that the next relationship will be like your EA then you could be in for some disappointment.<P>No I don't think all people involved in A's are immoral or bad people, but I do thing they are taking the easy way out..confronting what's wrong with your marriage and even with yourself is much harder...so take the easy way out and just leave it all behind...including a wife of 23 years and four children...those children alone should be reason enough to try again and again...until you have no more fight in you...and by that time neither one of you will want the marriage...and you can leave with a clear conscience. <P>I'm always amazed when I read a reply like your that it is not apparent that marriage is an ongoing process...if you are not the mate your wife needs then make yourself so...don't you have an obligation to change...is it only your wife who needs to change...perhaps change on your part would bring about change on hers.<P>I don't thik all marriages are worth saving, but I do think that one that has lasted for 23 years probably has some merit. You are just looking at it through "fog" colored glasses now and all you can see is its faults. Your wife evidently still has some interest in saving the marriage...support her in that...because after 23 years you owe her this one last opportunity...the opportunity you never gave her before you shared yourself with someone else.<BR>Give you and her time and encouragement to right what may be wrong in your marriage...for everone's sake. That's really all we can expect from MB..just an opportunity to realize that things needs to change and time to make those changes. I hope you stay around and learn a little bit more.<P>Faye<p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited April 27, 2001).]

I am not sure why I am here buffy, just that until my affair I had given up alltogether (and hey, my wife was not doing anything either, I am the one who tried to make the marriage work all those years). So when she resisted being agreeing to divorce I started looking around for things to help me understand my life. MB seems like a good place, the psychology feels sound, and folks are supportive. But there does seem to be a kneejerk condemnation of affairs, just cause they are affairs, and indeed maybe most are of no value. But the fact remains, an affair can be the precipitating event to a divorce that should happen but has not due to the natural reluctance of human beings to face the truth. For example, I have read on these boards numnerous stories of people who supposedly are "in love" with ws who have affair after affair, that is crazy, and cannot possibly be love IMO, but is dependentcy or a blind committment to the idea of being in love. Others are trying to love obviously abusive individuals who will never love back, what is that about? Yes some marriages can be saved, but IMO before one just says a marriage should be saved simply cause it happens to exist, one should look at whether it should be saved at all, and part of that is trying to understand why you think you love someone. I am aware of many bs (or otherwise) who do end up divorced, even when they didn't want it, and go on to wonderful 2nd marriages. IMO marriage is elevated far to high, it is no different than any other things humans do, errors are often made, and the best thing IMO to do is correct them by dissolving the marriage, learning from the experience, and doing a better job of mate selection. I am opposed to the idea of "working" at something so important as the choice of an intimate life partner, just to make a tolerable marriage. If that is all life is about, just having a tolerable relationship, then I'd rather be single. After 23 years I feel comfortable I know myself, and my wife well enuf, to assess the likelihood we would ever have anything more than a tolerable relationship. I would have left long ago except for the kids, I just think marriage should be more about a deep connected happiness, than an aloneness even if it is civil and "nice". Maybe that is just me, maybe I expect too much, but doggone it, why shouldn't we expect a lot from such an intimate choice? Anyways I have posted a bit to add my view as a ws to the mix of replies here. I am reluctant to do so cause this is a support site, but seems to welcome all views, and I suppose there is some small part inside me that isn't quite sure.

Sad_and_lonely,<P>Your post really touched something in me that made me want to post a reply to you. I have read several of your posts and know that you are struggling with what seems to you, the "futility" of your situation.<P>Although I ended up D, I did want to share with you my personal perspective of why you should try to save the marriage that you have. <P>Aside from any moral and religious views, I ask you to go back and read the Harley principles and focus on Dr H's premise that affairs happen when people fail to meet each other's emotional needs. When you and your W first met, I am assuming you both must have done a pretty good job of meeting each other's needs. Hence, the desire to take the relationship to the next level - marriage. What happens next, is the gradual decline of the marriage, in most cases due to neglect (or could be failure to nurture)of emotional needs that one or both of the parties in the marriage was previously meeting. Although the "diminished" relationship may seem comfortable to one spouse, it may be in fact totally unacceptable to the other person, and this sets the stage for another to come along and meet those needs. An affair occurs more often, but sometimes the marriage is ended without another party involved.<P>My opinion is that this PATTERN of neglect and failure to nurture in relationships is often repeated int he next relationship. The Harleys, and many other experts, echo these sentiments. That may be a big factor in why many second marriages have a high failure rate. We simply never learn what REALLY contributed to the breakup of the first marriage. No doubt about it, an affair does not promote a happy and healthy marriage. In my opinion, it offers the WS the ability to escape dealing with the issues that should be confronted within the marriage.<P>I know that you are struggling. I look at it like this. If you get divorced, you will most likely end up in another relationship. You and your new partner will undoubtedly do a wonderful jobs initially, of meeting each other's needs. You may even decide to marry again. What happens years down the road when one or both of you begin to neglect or fail to nurture the other? You have no skills to handle this situation, because you haven't learned from the first time. <BR>Instead of focusing on "saving the marriage" which you have doubts about, put your energies into trying to learn the lessons as to why your marriage is failing, and the skills you need to either save this marriage or at least to be successful in your next relationship.<P>Of course, then I am going to tell you that once you learn the lessons and begin to practice the techniques and build a skillset, if your W is also willing to do the same work, you would have the potential to have the mutually satisfying marriage and relationship that you both presumably had that lead you to get married in the first place. If it doesn't happen, you walk away with skills that help you to be more successful in the next relationship!<P>Something to think about.....<P>Desiree <P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Yes, I understand Sad_and_lonely...<P>You felt "alive" with the OW. My H felt "alive" with all his OW (five in all, that I know of) and I felt "alive" with the OM, and he felt "alive" with me. It's embarrassing really -- these shared feelings we WS get.<P>Like Desiree, I am divorced, and in my case, I filed because my ex could not forgive my affair and continued on a road of serial cheating that I simply could not endure (for my emotional sanity) any longer... or so I thought. In hindsight, I *could* have, if (and it's really a big IF) I could have incorporated the ideas presented on this website better. I have regrets, and regrets suck!<P>Have you really read the material here? I'd suggest that you go through these links:<P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000553.html" TARGET=_blank>General Welcome</A><P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html" TARGET=_blank>Counsel Link</A><P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>What Are Plan A and Plan B</A><P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busters</A><P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A><P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html" TARGET=_blank>POJA</A><P>This place can help you!! <P>...and welcome to our merry band of posters...

Dear Sad_and_Lonely:<P>Having reread my post to you last night and your response I realize that the tone of my post was slightly abrasive and I want to correct that because your post gave me the distinct impression that you think you have done everything you can do to work on your marriage.<P>You indicate you think that the reason you are staying in this relationship "for now" is because it's something you and your wife are use to...uncomfortable as it may be for both of you. Well, that may be so, but it took years for it to get that way and now you want to end it all because you've experienced something new. You seem to feel that you and your wife were never compatible and perhaps never should have been married. That's difficult to believe after 23 years...has it really been that difficult...or has it just been not quite what you wanted?<P>I quess the best way to explain my reaction to this is to give you an example from my own life. I have been married for 25 years to a man who for 22 of those years was an upstanding member of society...a good father...a professional man with a good reputation. Three years ago he had what could best be described as a mid-life crisis during which he decided that his old life was not enough for him...he needed more...because his old wife was not sexy enough...his old life was not exciting enough...and the new OW he found was his real soulmate...what he had been looking for all his life...so he left. Now all those things he had are gone...his reputation...his family...his professional respect...all for his new life with his soulmate...a married drunken OW on her fourth marriage who's been in prison and had her children taken away...and now he spends his life in bars..his new life.<P>Now, I'm not saying that you will ever have a situation as extreme as this but the words he said sounded much the same as your "My wife won't try" "I'm doing all the work" <BR>Well, the problem in our marrige was not mainly me as he said...it was both of us...but always one to take the easier way out of a situation he left because to do the necessary work would mean he would have to expend some effort on his own problems...better for him just to find someone new..and go on from there. Sound familar?<P>Your wife may have problems of her own...we all do...but right now she wants her marriage...for whatever reason..<BR>just as I still want mine...because I still believe there is something still there between us...something that went wrong..but something that still has potential. But he's taken another avenue and I must wait until he realizes his mistake and wants to find his way back. <P>You have an opportunity to try and correct any problems in your marriage now before you destroy so many lives...because regardless of how you view your transition to a new life...there will be people hurt in the process...and you won't necessarily be any happier...divorce doesn't guarantee happiness in the future.<BR>After all only 1 out of 4 new marriages will survive. Why?<BR>Because the old patterns of interrelationship are still the same and doom the new marriage too.<P><BR>I know you probably won't take my advise but it really is given in an effort to help you. Wait some more time...give MB principles a chance...see if you can make a difference...sometimes a change in you will result in a change in your wife. Years of bad communications takes time to change. Before maybe you didn't have the necessary skills to effect any change...now you do...if you stay here and try to learn.<P>I congradulate you for rising above the usual male tendency to shun any help in marital relationship. You want help because you're not sure about what you really want to do.<BR>And that's understandable...the lure of a new life is intoxicicating...life without all the problems...a new chance. But we carry all our own problems with us into any new relationship. How much better to give this old relationship a chance to revitalize with MB principles...examine your own failure in your marriage and where you could improve...not just where you wife has <BR>failed. After you have give your marriage this one last try then you will have no doubt as to what is best for you and you will be able to move on with as little guilt as possible. For your children's sake...try again.<P><BR>Faye<BR> <P><BR> <P><p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited April 28, 2001).]

Perhaps I missed it, but there seems to be a very important word missing here....commitment. Marriage is a very big deal, especially one that has lasted 23 years. Marriage is a lifelong commitment and should never be thrown away without lots and lots of thought. <P>sad_n_lonely....affairs are <B>always</B> bad....<B>always</B> wrong....<B>always</B> destructive. The <B>only</B> time something good comes from an affair is when the people involved see the mistake, end the affair and return to the marriage...and work extremely hard to make themselves a better marriage partner. In response, the wounded spouse then also works to see their own mistakes in the marriage...never taking blame for the affair....and works to make some changes of their own. You deal with the affair and then you deal with the condition of the marriage prior to the affair. The condition of the marriage has an impact on the vulnerability to have an affair but <B>in no way</B> places blame on the wounded spouse for it.<P>In my opinion, every marriage <B>is</B> worth saving, unless there is a history of ongoing infidelity or abuse and there is no evidence on the part of the offender of a willingness to change. You say you are offended by that tone here....I'm equally offended by yours.<P>Some affairs are "exit affairs"....just a way out of the marriage.....yours seems to be one, based on what I've read here. How sad for you and your wife children. Read some statistics on the effect of divorce on adult children...it is terribly destructive and leaves lifelong scars. It's a terrible tragedy.<P>We're probably about the same age...my husband and I will celebrate 23 years of marriage this September....so I feel I can address you honestly. Marriage is hard work...it is always a work in progress and one spouse never does everything right or everything wrong. It would be interesting to hear your wife's description of things....do you think it would match yours at all? My guess is no.<P>My suggestion to you is that you enter individual counseling for a while...put the divorce on hold. Take a long honest look at yourself and your efforts in your marriage over the past 23 years. Invite your wife to enter counseling with you and encourage her to do the same self-examination. If you do this and give it a real honest effort, then still decide to divorce, then at least you will have given things a fair chance. My belief is that if you do and give it that honest effort, you will find yourself in a marriage that you didn't know was possible....all without going through the pain of a divorce.<P>I fully expect that this post won't be well received and that's fine. My husband had an affair and the condition of our marriage prior to it was very unhappy for both of us. We both needed to make changes and move the health of our marriage to a higher priority. When the affair was revealed and ended it was agony for both of us. For me, because the man I trusted to always be faithful had broken that trust....for him because he had destroyed his own self-esteem and self-image with such a stupid choice. Thankfully for both of us, I didn't demand a divorce and he didn't either. We both did some really tough work...looking at ourselves and our marriage and dealing with the affair itself. It was so hard we sometimes didn't think we had the stamina to do it, but then we remembered that we had God on our side and that He was the source of our strength. Either one of us could have used the excuses you list and bailed on our marriage....how blessed we are that we were mature enough to stay the course. We now have a marriage that is about as "affair-proof" as they can get. It is fulfilling and magnificent. I believe neither of us would be where we are as individuals today if we had taken the easy way out.<P>------------------<BR>"They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31<p>[This message has been edited by HGBrawner (edited April 28, 2001).]

Hey there Buffy,<P>I haven't gotten in on a good discussion for a long time. I hope you are doing well.<P>Where can I find the intro for this thread? It seems very interesting to me. Sad and Lonely... sounds just like my H. that's kind of scary and I would like to read his other posts. There seems to be four of them to date. After read up on his story, I'll be back.<P>Thanks for the help, if you can find them.<P>Cathy

Roll.... I have read everything on this site, as well as 100's of posts, I feel pretty confident I understand the concepts, and I in part agree with them. The part I disagree with is the implication that the marriage itself is all that is important, and not how the people fit in them. IMO BOTH people should want more than anything else to be with each other, if either does not (for any reason at all), I don't think it healthy to tell them they are just in a fog and need to be repaired. That marriage has nothing to do with feelings, just do the "work" and love will magically appear, it feels like brainwashing. I know who I am, and I trust myself, and my ability to understand my emotions. I do not love my wife (I care about her), I would not marry her if I could go back, and I would not choose her now if we were two single people (and did not have a history). That may sound awful, but it is the truth, and IMO it is the truth for many people. Trying to save marriages just to save em does not feel right, instead let's get folks to understand themselves and assess whether they really want to spend another 30-40 years with the person they maybe should have never married in the first place (psychologically/emotionally speaking). I am absolutely opposed to the notion that marriage is just about work and makes no difference who you are married to. I think it makes a huge difference who you are married to, that fitting must be there first, before the work makes any sense. I understand that is an unpopular view, because it makes divorce more acceptable, since in our youth we can and do make stupid mistakes, there is no reason why marital mistakes should be excluded. And the idea that a vow means one is an emotional prisoner (assuming their heart does not want to be there) sickens me. I would NEVER want anyone to spend one more minute with me beyond their desire to do so. And by desire I do mean love, and emotion, not duty, not vows. The only kind of love that counts IMO is that which is freely chosen and freely given, it has to work both ways unconditionally, and a vow is a condition. My wife has said I owe her, cause I made a vow. It does guilt me tremendously, but I asked her...do you care if I want to be here, care whether I love you, and she said no, you promised so you owe me your life. Is that marriage? Is that what human bonding is about, a contract? I'd rather be get over by a truck. As for meeting EN, I do understand that, and have most of my life by my nature. The problem with my marriage is that my wife does not want to meet my needs, and to be honest I don't really want to meet hers, so what then? Further even if she decided (under duress) to change, I don't want her to meet my needs. I know she cannot do it very well, cause of the huge psychological differences between us, and I think it just stresses her to try, I know it stresses me. I think part of fitting and bonding with someone is that you CHOOSE to meet their needs, that their is something people recognize in each other that the books can never explain, but we all know it when we see it. I never saw it with my wife, but I knew something was not right. And yes I do see it with the OW. I am not stupid, I know how I feel, I never felt this with my wife, not dating, not married. It is not fog, it is not the allure of new romance (that is there too, I understand that and have looked beyond it), it instead is a fitting at very important psychological levels for both me and her. Now folks can blow that off as just silliness, or immaturity, we can just assume nobody knows anything about themselves, but that seems kinda self-serving to the idea that all marriages are worthy, and it is just the immature people that cause the unhappiness. Everyone has an agenda, including the harleys and the bs, the truth is somewhere in the middle, and that truth is many people would be much happier married to someone other than who they are. The question is, when and should we do anything about our marital circumstances, when is tolerable ok, when is leaveing ok, I guess that depends doesen't it. There is little doubt in my mind that my wife would be better off (and me to) emotionally, not married to each other. If we learn our lessons well, and do a much better job of mate selection, there is no reason why both of us could not live the next 30-40 years much happier with other spouses. True, if we do not grow and learn from this our lives will be no better, and maybe married and no better is preferable to single and no better, either way a depressing consideration. The thing is I don't even know why we should stay married, as long as I support her financially, and meet her current needs (all of which I can do as an ex-spouse) what point is their to being married anyways? I accepted long ago she did not love me (she told me so a million times), why is it so terrible now for me to finally say I don't love her either (in the married sense)? BTW the statistics on middleaged people who have done their homework having successful 2nd marriages is the highest success rate of all marital categories, as it should be. And I agree, the benefit to trying is acquiring the skills to meet en, something I am very good at allready. My problem is not that I don't know how, but that I am done. My only concern is that being human, and this being complicated stuff, that I might be decieveing myself in some way, hence my participation.<P>Buffy....Don't worry about abrasive, I seek and prefer straightforward feedback in life. Yes, it has been that difficult, I have been alone for my entire married life. My wife is an emotional black hole, she sucks up like a sponge having her needs met, I gave until I was a shell of a person, till I believed I was simply unlovable. She gives nothing back. I stayed 23 years out of duty to raising kids, and that is all. We have no relationship at all, nothing, zippo, I don't enjoy coming home, I don't miss or think about her when she is gone, I might as well be living with a total stranger. I care about her cause she is not a bad person, works hard, and is a good care-giver, but she has no business being married to anyone, she cannot take the emotional risks that meeting needs requires. As long as she is just doing "stuff", she is fine, but the moment you make emotional demands on her, she takes a hike. But if you need your dinner made, or the bills paid, or the kids taken to the doctor, or a million other things, there is no one more committed or reliable, unfortuneately that does nothing for an intimate relationship. She also loved getting all the cards, flowers, and attention I gave her over the years, trouble was I wanted it too, and told her so, she was unable/unwilling to do so. Instead I have had 23 years of being told how inadequate I am, and made clear I will never measure up. A typical dominant/submissive relationship. I am sorry to hear about your husband. Many men do seem to have these sorts of crisis. I am not a schoolboy, I am a pragmatic realist. I looked at the ow very very closely as this relationship developed, and she is worthy, as am I, there is absolutely no doubt we would have a solid, rewarding lifelong (remainder) marriage. The issue is not whether this affair came about for stupid reasons, but whether the marriages we are both in are as dead as we feel they are. Beyond that is the issue of duty and Christian morality. It just scares the heck out of me, that both she and I may be doomed to live out our lives in loveless marriages because of the indoctrinations we have recieced re marriage. Our spouses don't seem to care too much whether we are happy, just whether they have us, that confuses us both, and is not how we love. BTW I do not blame my wife, is not even about blame, although it can't help but sound like it, the issue is what is marriage and should mine continue on. I don't think blaming anyone does much, the issue should be, and always should be only one thing, do I choose this person, that simple.<P>HGB.....I agree about committment, I think 23 years is a pretty good effort. And I have given this lots of thought, I did not marry lightly, not divorce lightly, in fact I don't do anything lightly, but when my mind is finally made up, I am usually comfortable with it. I do not live in fogs, I live in reality. I may have had an affair, but the marital issues were there, and I was emotionally divorced before the affair happened. Was just putting in my time (1 child left in high school), and trying to get our lives in order so we could get divorced, and maybe guilty of a little apathy and inertia. I am not so sure affairs are always destructive, certainly no more so (in many cases) than the destruction wrougt by a bad marriage. IMO affairs are part of the natural order of checks and balances on human beings. In a perfect world there would be no affairs, and likewise there would be no troubled marriages, correct? However, the affair does fall in the "wrong" category of life, and I will never have another, it does indeed made life more difficult, one can look at it (as anything) a growth experience, but it does come at a high price for all concerned. And in general, I wish had never happened, but such is life, and I wish I had never married my wife too, a mistake of much greater consequence, but a socially acceptable mistake...go figure. BTW I am not offended by anyones tone, don't know why you said that. This is hard stuff, I know that, and no doubt many of you will find me totally despicable, I understand that. I too find some of the posts by BS and others of little psychological merit, a sort of pollyanish look at life, a fantasy in reverse I suppose. Hopefully that does not offend anyone either, I am just struggling to be forthright with my feelings but not rude. I have no idea why you think every marriage is worth saving, that implies you think makes no difference who people marry (despite overwhelming evidence that marital success is greatly dependent on how the individuals fit each other psychologically and emotionally), do you really think it makes no difference who you marry? That marriage and love is something you only construct? I disagree that divorce must leave terrible scars on children, human relationships and their failure are an intrinsic part of life, and we are psychologically equipped to deal with it. I do agree how one handles relationships (including divorce) can have a positive or negative impact on others. But that impact is not nearly as important as the impact on each spouse that living in an unharmonious relationship brings, it literally shortens your life for one thing (statistically those in happy marriages live longest, I think those in unhappy marriages live even less than singles, but not for sure). I cannot imagine much worse than living in an intimate relationship and being alone, that is far worse than the adjustment children (adult children) must make to the divorce of their parents. Unhappiness seems to be of little concern to many marital (at all cost) advocates, but the reality is it is a measure of mental health, why would one choose to stay unhappy, depressed, alone? And if all it takes to be happy is to tell ourselves we are really happy and just don't know it, then why aren't we all happy? Anyways the whole idea is silly, the fact is relationships are important, vitally important, and many of them are not good for the people in them and should be ended. My wife's description may very well be different, ws are not the only ones who rewrite history, do you think bs do so too? How do you think her version would differ? The facts are the same, she would probably say I don't meet her EN or something to that effect. She claims to love me, I don't believe her. You don't love someone and neglect them emotionally (something she does admit too, but says now she wants to change). People IMO are a little too quick to claim they "love" their spouse, I think many of you are in a dependentcy state of mind, not love. I do think my wife is dependent on me, but I don't want her to be, and has been one of our biggest problems. She abdicated her emotional duties, and forced me to take the emotional responsibility for our marriage, she did so knowing I would never leave cause of the kids. As long as I did the work, things were fairly smooth, but the moment I stop, or ask for anything for me she withdrew, used anger (which was always there, and she made sure I knew it). She will admit to all of this, her position now is that she was wrong, is sorry, I should just forget it, and move forward. I just am done, think that probably who I am is at least partly the cause of her actions (a kinda negative effect on each other), and I don't think it can just be fixed, is inherent in who we are. Haven't you met/dated people you knew you could never really get along with? Not cause they were bad, just cause you didn't fit very well, was a struggle just to be near them if you had to be, would choose not to if possible? Well, that is essentially the problem my wife and I have, we should never have married. We fought alot while dating, and never bonded at all, we got married cause we just got wore out fighting and had too much history to let go of. I am happy to hear your marriage worked out, both my wife and I have had tons of individual and marital counselling, I feel I/we have done the work, she disagrees, so how do you know when to call it quits? BTW your post was "recieved" just fine, I appreciate the time you took to comment. We are not even seperated yet (but close) and may go to something called retrovaille (a marriage encounter thing) next weekend as kinda a last effort at assessing where we are. My wife asks me over and over and over why I don't love her, it does break my heart to see her so unhappy, but I cannot lie to her. She also is angry most of the time, which of course is what she always has been, so hard for me to believe I have misunderstood our marriage. I truly believe I am not good for her, and after the pain she will be ok. I will not abandon her (financially/emotionally), I just don't want to be in a intimate relationship and alone. She wants to blame me, and seems intent on "kicking" me out if I won't straighten up (I guess that is important to her self-esteem). We don't talk about my stuff much, no real surprise, never have. That's ok, I intend to take all the blame, and give her everything, I just refuse to be alone anymore, that may be selfish, but I think it is survival.<P>Catplay....Are you still married? Several have mentioned I sound somewhat like their spouse. I tend to agree, I have come to believe that their is only a small number of actuall ways humans interact maritally, and only the names and circumstances change. So if my feedback as a ws can be of any value, I am willing to be dissected some. My basic issue is that I am not the typical male (so I am told), I am more pyschologically female in that I have a lot of conversation and affection needs, my greatest need is emotional honesty, SF is probably only about number 4 or 5. My wife is very unwilling/unable to meet those needs. The ow met them in huge amounts. My wife typically hides her emotions for fear of rejection, and of course what she feared came to pass. I am not real sure what her needs are, never been able to get to the bottom of them. But I do know my very existence stresses her alot. This is not about blame cathy, it is simply about not fitting. My wife seems to want a dependentcy relationship, yet exerts ridgid emotional control over our marriage. I don't want either, and have come to believe that we are simply not suited to each other in a marital sense, I am sure I am as much of the problem as she is. We could with herculean effort probably manage a tolerable relationship, I can't do that. I want it all or nothing, that is part of who I am. She is willing to settle, again we don't fit. What irritates me is being told (on sites like this etc.) what I want is wrong, or unreasonable, or not needed, so I guess that means my needs are unimportant. Anyways if asking me a few things helps with your husband, would be my pleasure.<P><BR>

Sad_and_loney,<P>Thanks for sharing your perspective. I read your reply to me and to the others, too. Since you are going to go on the marriage encounter weekend next week, as you have said in your post, you are giving this one last ditch effort.<P>In reading your entire post, it kinda strikes me that both you and your wife are in stages of withdrawal from each other. You may want to read Dr H's articles on withdrawal. You admit that your W has not met your needs for years and that the OW did a great job at meeting your needs. Back to the basics of this website - you don't sustain a relationship without continually working towards meeting your partner's emotional needs.<P>I can tell that you are have put alot of thought into your current situation. Everyone does not agree that a couple should stay together for moral or religious reasons. The world is full of people who think differently on these issues. People are differnt on how they feel about the commitment of marriage - for some it is absolutely forever no matter what, and for others, it is absolutely together as long as it is good, with variations in between.<P>I am divorced. I will surely not tell you to stay in a marriage where you feel an "emotional prisioner." I am the one who filed for my D. I had a WS who left and who never did anything towards marital recovery. I am surely no expert on how to do these things right.<P>But, you have expressed that you want to be sure before you throw the towel in, that this is the right way for you to go. You are thoughtfully analyzing your situation to ensure that you will have thought out the consequences of your next steps.<P>I can tell that you don't want and even object to the idea of saving the marriage for the sake of the marriage. That is why my other post to you centers on garnering skillsets. As I said earlier, if you practice the skillsets, POJA, eliminating LB's, meeting your W's most important ENs, you might see a change in your situation. <P>I will say one thing I believe is certain. No marriage will survive without two people wanting to save it and no marriage will thrive without two people putting effort and energy into it. Your situation will probably never change unless both you and your wife desire a change and commit to taking the steps to see if you can have a better relationship together. By the fact you are going on the retreat next weekend, I see there is possibility for you two to both try something different.<P>23 years is an admirably long time to commit to someone,even if only for the sake of the kids, as you have stated. I have only asked you to think about your situation from a different perspective. In my opinion, if you and your W were to both agree to adopting the practices and to try to meet each other's needs, you can only gain. If you fail to restore the love, or maybe in your case - to find the love, then surely you will part on better circumstances, because you will have learned how to treat other better and more respectfully than you are currently doing.<P>Again, if things between you and her don't work out, you have lost nothing but a little more time, and gained the skills to help you be a better partner further down the line with someone else, if that is what you choose.<P>Take care,<P>Desiree<P><P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

I believe when two people get married they do so with their dreams and views of the future based on an ideal. This ideal is something they have developed over time as children and through their adult years. I would hope that most people also choose their marriage partner with some thought and, yes, prayer. My guess is that most of us don't. I know that I didn't put the prayer into it as I should have. I would imagine that very few couples talk through their ideas of what marriage will be like 15, 20 or 40 years down the road. The vast majority of people get married to the person they choose because of the "in love" feeling they have when they are together. The reality is that those "in love" feelings are really quite shallow and don't last of the life of a relationship. Then you have to have more to base it on.<P>In my opinion, marriage is about work. The problem is that most people view "work" as a dirty word. In my experience, especially over the past 3 years, it has been the most fun work I've ever done. When my world blew apart when my husband's affair was revealed, I was horribly angry. But I also had to look seriously at what I thought I had been doing to make our marriage a priority. If you had asked me if my marriage was a priority the week before the affair was revealed, I would have said yes. The week after, I would have said no. My perspective was totally different.<P>It is entirely possible that the revelation of your affair has really opened your wife's eyes to her mistakes and shortcomings in your relationship. There are countless other wounded spouses here who would testify to that. A crisis this big has a way of waking you up when you didn't even realize you were asleep.<P>That being the case, I do believe you owe your wife a real try at building a marriage that you both will find fulfilling and magnificent. You made a commitment to her "until death do you part"....not until you decide that you care about her but don't love her and want to find someone else. It doesn't matter how long things have been going downhill, you both owe it to each other to really try to make it better.<P>You say that for people who've done their homework the success rate of second marriages is extremely high. That may be. But I will counter that if you really do your homework, there's no need for a divorce, your "first" marriage will be successful too. It isn't about exchanging marriage partners, it's about changing yourself.<P>------------------<BR>"They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31

Hgb.....Your viewpoint is interesting, and if I hear correctly is saying that any 2 people who practice skills such as MB espouses will have a rewarding marriage. I confess this sounds like Greek to me. So if tomorrow, you and I got married (sort of an arranged thingy, don't even know each other), and just dutifullly meet each others needs, we will have a "happy", "fullfilling", "rewarding" marriage? Then why in the world does it make any difference who we marry? We only need to ask a prospective mate one question, will you practice MB principles with me, and if they say yes, we get married. Why waste time dating and checking each other out if it makes no difference? I will agree that practicing such principles in any relationship will lead to more harmony, is that all there is to marriage? There is no such thing as a person you fit in a special way, a way that motivates one to WANT to love unconditionally, to practice Christian marital love, to want to interact as MB suggest.....where is the want? It is only a matter of will, not of the heart? I am not trying to be argumentative, I am serious. I have heard your position before and I do not understand it. Just meeting someones EN = love, desire, passion, makes no sense to me.<P>Desiree.....Your position is reasonable, and the one I most closely resemble. I have 2 problems. One my wife has asked me not to um........ be nice to her unless I will gaurantee her I will never leave, this is somewhat of an impediment to me, and a sneaky way to make me feel guilty (yes she knows me well, and despite my affair, I am a very loyal committed type person, she is using that knowledge unfairly IMO). The 2nd problem is a specific ultimatum, gaurantee her right now I will not ever leave, else move out. She even is refusing to attend the marriage thing without this gaurantee (which she found and asked me to attend in the first place). I don't fight about that, I just say I am going, is up to her what she does. I get a lot of grief from her (and everyone else in the world) re the affair, and rightly so, but even the pastors have told her to forget the ultimatum stuff, go figure.

well, I am the BS of a 19 year marriage, my WH has been having an affair for 13 months and my situation is similar to other post about the past 18 years was a very respectable, moral, God Fearing Christian and now all that has changed due to his SIN. Yes, this is SIN, no other excuse, an affair is Audultrey which is SIN. There are only 2 choices in life, GOD choices and Satan Choices, there are no in betweens. Taking a vow before God and breaking it is one sin, Audultrey is another, leaving kids is another, etc. it just spirals out of control. GOD is a just God and forgives if we repent and restore our relationship with him, but if we don't and don't make GOd Choices, God will not reward disobedience, it is that simple. You can choose what you want and then GOd will either bless you or not, I myself would much rather have God's blessings rather than his Wrath. My WH still loves his sin more than he loves God and that is scary, sounds like to me you do too. You need to find a good church with some men's support groups and both wife and you need to attend marriage conferences, counseling or anything to bring back the love in your marriage. It can be done, God is a miracle worker is we are obedient and let him work!

sef.......Well, you managed to poke one of my most tender spots. What the heck is God's will anyways, and how do we know. If this was satans work, then he did a terrific job. I have never looked at another woman in thought, much less real life, despite dealing with women constantly in my work in my 23 years of marriage. Thought affairs were despicable events. Could barely even contemplate divorce. If this is sin, then love is sin. I don't lust for this woman, or she me, I simply love her, and would choose her if I were single. I am not sure I am qualified to say with absolute knowledge what sin is, but I suspect trying to have 2 women would qualify. So as soon as I realized what was happening, I agreed with my wifes standing request for a divorce. That still leaves me with a difficult decision if the other woman would not do the same, which she feels unable to do. Not cause she doesn't want to, but cause she cannot bear the consequences (guilt for hurting her husbands feelings). Obviously we cannot continue on (interacting) if that is her final decision, but we will still love, that is not a matter of the mind, but the heart. Just for the record we were not physically unfaithfull, but we would like to be, the morals held that much anyways. Because of this I have tried to understand God, marriage, and the Bible, heretofore I just listened to others interpretation. The argument is long and will not do here, but divorce is not unacceptable to God, the point of scripture is what marriage should be like, and that it is not something to treat lightly, but it is not an absolute. IMO God allows us (by freewill) to choose our marital status, we will be judged accordingly. IMO folks who maintain marriages just for duty, but do not love rightly will be judged just as hard as one who leaves a marriage for frivolous reasons. On the other hand, I do think God does have partners in mind for us, and may lead us to them through a divorce. Some will call that blasphemy, but they cannot refute it. Mostly God blesses marriages, however they occur, I think He leaves who we marry, and whether we stay married up to us. I have prayed for marital harmony for years, it never occured to me that may mean leaveing my marriage. It is quite possible my wife will find someone much more suited to her as a life partner as well, and all I am doing is standing in the way, no one can say with certainty that is not God's plan. As for the ow, an incredible amount of coincidences had to occur for us to even get to know each other, and the degree we fit each other is downright scarey. I am a hard-headed pragmatic person, not easily manipulated at all, whether this is right or wrong, she is a genuine good person, and I do love her, and she does me. Were we happily married and met, we would have become been very good friends anyways. I have prayed continuously for discernment, and guidance, as well as protection from satan's influence. All that seems to happen is positive stuff re the ow, so I don't know what to think about this. But I do know it won't continue in it's present form. Perhaps meeting and interacting with someone is part of being human, what you do with it is what matters, so we will both be either free, or not, if not it will end. I do know one other thing, I will never let myself get close to a married woman again, unless I am happily married myself. I might add in terms of mysterious ways, this affair has had unexpected consequences in ways that are clearly positive...mostly arising out of the intense scrutiny an affair engenders in looking at why we do things, and also the effects on others.

I am very new to this site, and am learning more and more about Dr.Harley's concepts everyday. (So what I say, is based on my perception of the concepts at that time.) (yes, this is my very own C.O.A. clause...cover own a** hehe).<P>Sad and Lonely, in reference to your feelings that some people on here give you the impression that YOUR opinion on your marriage is wrong...forget about them. You must keep in mind, that all of the people on here (besides you, that I am aware of) are here because they truly want to save their marriages. From what I have seen you write in this thread only, you truly believe that you have tried everything you could to save your marriage. And I for one, can accept that, as I'm sure many many others can too. Just b/c you didn't use Dr.Harley's methods, does NOT mean that the methods you did use were wrong. If and when you get the impression from others, that they don't agree with your views, that is because you, to them, represent the final outcome that none of us on here right now want to have from our WS. The fact that we know it is a possibility in our situations, makes you seem like a threat to some of us. You can write and write and post and post, trying to explain your feelings, but because none of us on here (again, as far as I know)have those same feelings, it makes it that much harder to understand them. YOU are the only one who does. We can try and sympathize (?) and understand them, but cannot empathize (?) with them. <P>My guess is that you're on here trying to have someone validate your feelings about your marriage. It's not really the right place for getting that particular support wholly, b/c we just cannot empathize with you in your situation. And not that I've searched for it, but I really don't know where you could go to find that (IF that is what you're looking for).<P>Does your wife know about MB? If not, I think you should encourage her to read up. If she really wants the two of you to stay married, she really must show that she can change, and stick to it. In regard to Harley's concepts, SHE is the one who needs to utilize them for now. It is quite obvious that you feel you have tried too much, and cannot endure trying anymore. That's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. Even as far as plan A and B and recovery goes, there has NEVER been any guarantee that it will work or not. Only that "thousands of couples have used [my] concepts and have gone on to lead very fulfilling and happy marriages". (or something along those lines..grin). Should your wife change for the better, and use those new found skills towards your relationship, then that is a great thing. Whether or not they work to save the marriage? That is for you to decide. There is no time frame to go by, each of us can only endure so much for so long.<P>Perhaps what may sound distressing in your posts, is that you don't really want to go on with your marriage, yet you are searching for any possible reasons that would make you want to. From the sounds of it, your reasons have mostly been b/c of your children, and pretty soon, they won't be around the house anymore for you to have that reason.<P>The views on here will always be give it one more try. But it is also supposed to be understood, that eventually, there may be no point in trying any longer. I can accept that you may have reached that point. But I also believe that you should allow your wife that 'one more try'. Be totally honest with her. Tell her that you've given up now. Tell her that you will try and keep an open mind with her efforts, and that if they work they work, but if they don't they don't. Don't put a time frame on it working or not working, because you can't. Then again, perhaps that time frame has already expired. <P>If that's the case, then you must try and let go of your guilt for leaving the marriage. As harsh as it may sound, your wife will just have to deal with it if you do. I obviously don't know either her nor you, but she doesn't sound very open minded about fixing things, if her attitude is strictly 'you must stay married to me b/c we took vows 23 yrs ago'.<P>So, if it's over, it's over. It really cannot be mended unless both parties want it to be that way. It sounds like you don't want it anymore at all. That you have honestly exhausted all efforts, and are worn out. If there is absolutely no part left in you AT ALL, that wants to stay, then it is most definitely the best decision that you do not. You just have to be totally honest with yourself, and decide if you truly and honestly feel that it is over.<P>Although I may be shunned for saying this, perhaps what the two of you need to do is have a trial separation. You obviously don't know whether or not to choose white or black, so I think that a trial separation would fit into the grey area for you. Again, this is only my opinion, and only you can decide what is right for you.<P>I do wish you the best of luck, and have to admit, it's really great seeing such a different perspective on all of our situations. I, like many others, encourage you to keep on posting. Hopefully, by doing so, we can help you to sort through your feelings.<P>Take care,<BR>Karen<BR>

Sad_and_Lonely,<P>Thanks, again, for sharing your feelings. I am sorry that your W is manipulating you and making you feel guilty. It does not help, does it? But, from the BS's point of view, these are the mechanics we sometimes use, because we feel that our backs are up against a wall - our family is being threatened.<P>One of the things that I did, urged on by K, was to counsel with Steve. You know what I learned on my very first counseling session? I was very judgemental and disrespectful to my then H. Like your W, I was full of all kinds of demands. To me they did not seem unreasonable.... get rid of the OW or else! I also did a whole lot of talking to him - trying to educate him on what he was doing wrong and how he could fix all of this by doing "right". Yep, I also laid a huge pile of guilt and a big pity pot at his feet, too. I did it all thinking I was helping! Little did I know that I probably sent him away with all my desperate attempts to keep him home. I am only saying that if your W is doing things you find intolerable and that are big LB's, such as demands and judgements, then at least have a little understanding that she feels very threatened.<P>I might suggest to you that you and your W call Steve for a counseling session. You and she could learn alot. The time after discovery of the affair is no picnic for either of you. Emotions are high for you both right now, and as Distressed would remind us....neither of you need to make life-impacting decisions when your emotions have the best of you.<P>About the guarantee....well, wouldn't we all love one? I guess the best guarantee you can have is that you both would decide you WANT to stay married to each other and then commit to learn the skills you need to be successful. I really do believe it is the closet thing you have to a guarantee. Think about what you could have - a relationship where both parties strive continuously to treat each other with the highest respect. Little to no LBs. No more taking anything or anybody for granted! Spending your best free time with your mate - doing things you have both agreed would be fun for you. Doing things that are special in a way that is meaningful for the OTHER person. POJA. WOW! How can a formula like that not give you the closest thing to a guarantee!?! <P>This is a tough time for you. This is a tough time for your wife. There is no easy formula here. If you stay married, you have your work cut out for you. If you decide to divorce, do know that it brings a different set of problems to deal with. Life is like that - there is always a curve, a twist and a double-back in the road. <P>Keep praying. God will listen and convict your heart as to what you should do. You are not ready to make a decision, yet, either way. I am going to keep you and your wife in my prayers this week. If you can allow your heart to open a bit, and your W can allow her heart to open a bit, you both may be surprised at what can find it's way in. <P>I am hopeful that your upcoming weekend retreat will give you both a clearer head and heart. <P>Take care, Desiree <P><P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

You know, the funny thing is that in countries where marriages are arranged, there are stories of people who meet as strangers and are married because of a contract between their parents. It sounds archaic to me and almost abusive, but I've read stories of how great a love has developed between the two people because they tried. Because they made the commitment and gave it the right effort, they have a very happy marriage. To them, our way of choosing our own spouse is unbelievable.<P>I want to address your comments about how God feels about all of this and what the Bible says very carefully. In no way do I want to turn you away from seeking Him, but I also will not tiptoe around the truth. God hates divorce....period, end of sentence. The Bible states this very clearly in Matthew 5 and 19 in the New Testament and in Malachi 2 in the Old Testament. In Mark 10 Jesus says "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery against him." The only reason given for divorce is marital unfaithfulness and even then His desire is that the person turn from the sin and restore the marriage. <P>Now before everyone jumps on me and brings up abuse, etc. let me say that I believe even though God hates divorce, He seeks the safety of His children. I do not believe God would ever expect a woman to compromise her physical safety or that of her children because God hates divorce. In fact, I believe His hatred of divorce calls that abusive husband to repent from his sin and change his ways and not force his wife to make the choice to leave.<P>There is absolutely, positively, <B>no</B> way that God brought you and this woman together. He never tempts us, never brings sin into our lives. <B>Ever.</B> Any positive feelings about this woman and your affair you are receiving in response to your prayers is not coming from God. Go to the Bible yourself and weigh the answers you feel you are getting against His word on adultery and divorce. Go to your priest or pastor and tell him what you believe God is telling you and see if he confirms it. <P>God does allow us to be tempted, however, and His desire is that we will face that temptation with strength that comes through Him and then turn away from it. When we succumb to temptation, it breaks His heart. But for the person who is a Christian, who has a personal relationship with Him, He will provide forgiveness and grace when they repent from their sin and seek Him.<P>God's will isn't about doing whatever we ask of Him like some fairy godfather. His will is about working in and through His children to bring glory to His Kingdom and to bring those who don't know Him to a saving knowledge of Him. He loves His children and very much desires to bless them, but He doesn't promise that our lives will be easy and devoid of trial and pain. The happiness I have today is that much more sweet because I see His hand at work and see how far He has brought us. I'm not grateful for the sin that came into my life, but I'm eternally grateful for the way God worked and revealed Himself. He took the broken pieces of my marriage and put them back together into something precious and wonderful.<P>You seem to be searching for something that is missing in your life. There've been problems in your marriage....maybe worse than most, maybe not...and you believe you've found your answer in this affair. My belief is that what you are seeking isn't about your marriage or this affair, but about something you are missing inside yourself and that even if you purused a relationship with this woman, you would eventually find that it isn't the answer you thought. What a shame it would be to turn around in a few years and find out that you could have restored your marriage and found what was missing too. <P>Why not seriously consider seeking your happiness in a personal relationship with Jesus Christ....see if He doesn't fill the holes in your life and give you a love for the wife you married 23 years ago. I suggest this with all sincerity and because I know it is possible. You see, prior to his affair I wasn't sure I loved my husband any more. I would sit on the sofa at night and be on the verge of tears because I couldn't imagine feeling this way for the rest of my life, but I also couldn't imagine getting a divorce. I felt pretty hopeless. I was praying for God to help me love Him as I should, but not seeing any answer. Of course the answer was there....He had placed a wonderful counselor in our church, but I couldn't bring myself to take that step. I thought I would just wake up one day and feel that great love for him again. God certainly didn't will the affair, but He did orchestrate the revelation. He offered us a second chance and, thankfully, we were smart enough to trust Him and take it.<P>I'm not living your life and I can't force you to believe as I do. All I ask is that you really consider the possibility that I am right. Your final choice is yours to make.<P><P>------------------<BR>"They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31

HGB,<P>Well said, you posted so elquently what I wanted to say but couldn't find the words.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't lust for this woman, or she me, I simply love her, and would choose her if I were single.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Which you are most emphatically NOT.<P>I'd be willing to bet that my husband would say that he did all he could to save our marriage. Of course, that was without me knowing there was a problem with it - because I was suffering from clinical depression and really didn't have a great grasp on anything but how simply yucky I always felt.<P>You know what? When he announced to me he was leaving, I died. I really feel like I died. I went to my doctor, talked to him about depression, went on medication and got counselling. And since then, a new person has emerged from who I was. A wonderful, exciting, fun person - someone who would be a perfect match for my husband.<P>But he is certain that we can never be happy together again. This without really ever experiencing the fabulous person I have become. It makes me sad, because he will not acknowledge that he truly never gave our marriage a chance after he found the slug. And it leaves a big hole inside my heart that will take a long time to heal.<P>The bottom line is this: You DID make a commitment to your wife, and she to you. Both of you have screwed up this marriage... Both of you should try to fix it. You are in the best position of all to do the fixing.<P>Let me ask you this: the OW in your life is also married. She has become involved with a man outside of her marriage. How could you ever trust her not to do the same thing to you? What makes you think that she will always be the person you know now, when you don't live with her every day and share the bills and the kids and the pets and the car and ... all of the stuff that makes life complex and difficult and that makes us distance ourselves from our spouses.<P>You ARE INDEED in the fog - the answers you are giving are the answers inscribed in the 'cheaters book' - they are the same answers all of the wayward spouses give. Why do you think that you are so different than the rest of the WS's when your words are the same?<P>An affair is ALWAYS wrong. And you are not only betraying your wife, you are helping another person betray someone they made a commitment to. How do you think the OW's husband feels or will feel? Do you know for a fact that he doesn't love his own wife? What makes you so important that you have the right to break up TWO families?<P>I am not trying to be mean here, just trying to make some sense of the senseless thing you are attempting to justify.<P>You owe it to your family AND to yourself to put out the best effort you can in your attempt to reconcile with your wife. No contact with the OW - help her heal her own life by getting OUT of it - and REALLY try to save your own marriage.<P>(getting off the soapbox now)<BR><P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Well terri, which btw is my wifes name, you are correct, I am helping her betray her husband, and that must stop. I am actually relieved my wife found out, that let's the issues be dealt with. She feels the same, and is becoming consumed with guilt, but is unwilling to deal with it in her life yet. There is perhaps a time as these things develop when one is trying to figure out what is happening, but to continue on with 2 lives is no good. I believe her when she says she does not love her husband, and that he has not met the Biblical standards for marital behaviour, which she had met, until I came along. The issue is whether love or duty should prevail in remaining married. She too has tried for years to find that oneflesh, that bond, we all seek in marriage. As for trusting her, that is not an issue for me, love must be unconditional, and I love that way. If my trust is misplaced, so be it. Likewise with me, I don't believe that simply experiencing an affair means one is a serial affair person, I will never have another cause now I understand how it happens, I think the same applies to her. The only reason our spouses did not know, is that we did not know, and when I realized what was happening, I did tell my wife I would agree to a divorce (her idea for some time). As for ow, she must decide, either confront her marital issues and resolve/divorce or let me go, I understand that. As for the fog, I accept that and consider the feedback that I sound like a broken record. But that does not necessarily mean I am wrong in my assessment of my marriage either. It is a confusing place, having to justify feelings that led to behaviour that in itself is ill-advised re human relations. But humans are kinda messy, so this happens. IMO what you do about it is what is important. I will not participate in a long-term affair, these feelings developed outside of marriage, and so are labeled derogatorily as an affair, but IMO if one deals with the feelings in a forthright manner, that is a mitigating factor. Keep in mind that within weeks of realizing my feelings were leading to a conflict of committment, I took action. Btw I am not attempting to justify anything, I don't deal in justifications, I deal in reality, and nothing is more real than human emotions. What I am doing is trying to figure out what to do. I don't think matters of the heart should be followed blindly, but should engage our brains too. As to why do I think I am important enuf to disrupt two families, I can only say why am I not? If love means anything at all, then disruption is a fact of life in human relationships. If we instead say it is all only a matter of contract law, then you are correct, I don't matter. I knew when I married my wife, vows notwithstanding, that someday she might not be there, it is a simple fact of human existence. But I did expect a good faith effort, and I have returned same. But it boils down to only one issue, either marriage is an absolute, or it is not.... I say it is not, can never be, cause humans are not built that way, they make psychological errors. And when we do, a price will be paid, a broken marriage, whether divorce occurs or not. The bond is never made, and the marriage is either dissolved, or is a sham, either way it has failed. And yes I know he does not love his wife. I place a different standard on love then many, talk is cheap, if you love your spouse it will be felt, and they will know. The choices her husband has made are not loving choices, they were selfish choices. My wife does not love me either, despite her protestations otherwise, she only thinks she does, she loves herself and what she wants, not me. But I would be interested in how you define love. Also how do you know you are a perfect match for your husband? I am not doubting you are a worthy individual, but how do you know you match him? How does any of us know? Some say makes no difference, I say it makes a huge difference. Anyways thx for your comments, they are appreciated, don't worry about the soapbox. <P>Hgb....I won't argue with you, I am very familiar with your theological position, I once held it, as did the ow. We just don't know anymore. But I will say this, no one can say with certainty what God will do, or how He will work in anyone's life. As for God hating divorce, don't we all, but that is not a prohibition against divorce, neither is Jesus comments re adultery. And as you pointed out, we all rationalize, you invented a doctrine of safety, nowhere in the Bible will you find scripture saying that. Perhaps one should stay in an abusive marriage, even die there, that may be God's plan, and some benefit unknown to us derive from what appears to us a tradjedy. That's the trouble with absolutes, and deciding we know God's will for others, obviously the concept fails under any kind of logical scrutiny. Marriage is clearly a serious matter, but it is not an absolute. I do pray about this everyday, and can only hope I do the right thing. But I am curious, do you think God does not bless 2nd marriages?

S & L,<P>I would like to reply to your comment about your wife's 'ultimatums'. My H (WS) also accused me of making ultimatums. Hm... let me see, they were about many things. Taking out the garbage, picking up his clothes, putting things away, oh and yes the big one - give up the OW if he wants to come home. <P>Were they ultimatums? 1 was, the last one. The others were requests. Should they have been? Yes, the last one. The others are his responsibility. Were they viewed by WS as the same? Yes. But in reality they were not. <P>Simplistic as this scenario sounds, it is repeated over and over again, when someone is looking to justify something that they feel needs to be justified. Why? Because without that justification, it will look and feel as it is really is.... WRONG!!! An Affair regardless of the reason, is still an affair and is wrong. <P>Justification is often done today as an excuse to do something wrong. Our children learn to do this at a tender age. Johnny took my toy so I slugged him. Justification. I cheated on the test because I didn't want to get a bad grade and make you mad at me. Justification. I stayed out past my curfew because I didn't want to come home just as you were going to bed. Justification. And it goes on. Different story same objective. <P>My H also said he was not in the fog and that he truly met the love of his life. Ok, let's examine this. He did not know her real name for 2 months (but had sex after 6 weeks), did not know her history (just what she told him) hmm.... background check should some questionable history, <BR>shaved off his mustache after wearing it for 20 years (it was his trademark - used to do commercials), etc. He also said he & OW had so much in common. When asked, he could not really say. Did OW have any bad traits? Hmmm... H couldn't really name any. But I could, from the e-mails from OW to me, I found it hard to find any 'good' qualities and trust me I looked hard. She lied, elevated herself about others, encouraged H to leave his family, used the yo-yo method of pulling him in and pushing him away (fueling his illness), made up stories and accusations about me and to me, threatened to throw me in jail, etc. <P>The point is that in every A (yours may not be as psyco as the one I had to deal with), there is the tendancy to look for the problems in our spouse and minimize the problems in the OP. Yes, I as the BS have problems. Not impossible problems that can not be resolved by working with my H and visa versa. But how can I work on them if he is spending time in the arms of another woman? What chance is there to better my relationship with my H if some else is already building it with my H? I am his wife and he is my Husband. Until that bond is broken, those 'titles' need to be respected. <P>Legally, morally, physically and scripturally both the H & W have the right to require faithfulness. The Bible does back that up. Scriptural grounds for divorce are only allowed because of adultery. This is a sin not just against God but against one's mate. In fact the scriptures go so far as to say that the mate that has been sinned against has the right to either forgive or divorce and still remain in good standing with God. The ability to forgive that sin rests with the faithful spouse. <P>If both you and your wife see no other way to save your marriage other than a divorce. You have given her the scriptural grounds. If one wants to try and save the marriage, then support for that effort can be provided in a number of ways, one of them being the support from here. <P>You are here posting. Can you invite your wife to visit here also? There are several couples that post here. If she is not comfortable posting, she can just read. I learned much here by reading. <P>My H thought he knew me well. We have been married over 10 years. H thought I would kick him out with no chance to return. H also thought and convinced himself it was ok to step out on his marriage because he thought, I did not love him. Are you positive about how your wife feels? I was hurt to think my H would feel that way about me. But H did and never asked me how I felt. Eventually when he hooked up with OW, it was too late, he had to tell himself I was a bad and wicked person. One he never should have married. Both he & OW convinced him that our marriage was bad since day 1. You know the only one in this triangle that did not know this was me. But God knew everything, in time I came to learn their misconception or deliberate misconception. For OW is was a deliberate attempt to justify her replacing me. For H it became a deliberate attempt to justify him leaving not just me but his family, his religion, his friends, his relatives, everything he had. Drop it all, run away and start a new life. Funny thing, H never even met one of OWs 'friends'. She claimed in an e-mail to me that she had many friends and told them 'in one day' what a bad person I was. Hm.... H & I have so many friends, most don't know what is happening to us. <P>So S&L, think about what you have now with your family, think about what you will lose without your family and think about what you will have with OW and what she will lose without her family. Perfect love throws fear outside the Bible says at 1John 4:18, but the fear we should not throw out is the healthy fear of doing what is right (Prov 8:13 - The fear of God means the hating of bad). We should never want to throw that away. <P>Now I would like to share something with you that I have not really shared with this group until now. My H has been out there away from his family (spiritually and morally for 21 months and physically away for 4 months). H has come home today. Our road to recovery is just beginning. There was a lot he has learned and did not realize how far away he had gone. The pain and guilt he has heaped upon himself is almost unbearable. He is in awe of the fact that his family is still here. He was on the verge of losing us. <P>Our family has been given another chance. Anyone of us can blow it. Please consider all the words here. Many of us would like to opportunity to work on our marriages. They are not as bad as we seem to think and sometimes our thinking could be wrong. Ask God to make sure you have given it your all, the real all. You will know when you have done this when your heart is at peace and you know there is no more you can do. <P>Take Care and thanks for reading this loooong post. <P>L.<BR>