<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OffOnOnOff:<BR><B><BR>Well, what do you think? I have not responded to her letter yet. I don’t know if it will make any different. Please tell me I’m nuts. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>I remember the broad brush version of your story, but not all the details about your wife, so take this for what it's worth. I do think she's opening up to you, but doesn't feel fully safe yet. This seems to be common with women who went into withdrawal. By <I>safe</I> I don't mean physically, but emotionally.<P>Your Plan A changes may have been there for a long time, but due to her A and other factors she's only now really tuned in to them. It will take her a while longer to fully trust them. The picture I have is of a turtle poking its head out of its shell. It wants to look around out of the shell, but it may not be safe out there.<P>I'd say keep doing the things you've been doing and she'll probably continue to slowly open up. Remember that you've only been back from overseas a short time and it takes a while to overcome the effects of that absence.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Steve,<BR>May I ask how long did your wife stay in withdrawal? Is there a sign that I can observe to see that my wife is coming back? I know that each individual has his/her own way of recovery, but there must be certain behavior to look for.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>My wife worked with the OM, and continued to see him secretly outside of work. At first she was open to spending time with me, but would say she felt "smothered". She was not reluctant sexually, though, just wanted to limit the time spent with me. It took about 4 months for her to really feel intimacy with me again. I guess this was a couple of months after she got fired and no longer saw the OM daily, which was a big key.<P>Our story is complicated in that she then had some mental health issues and went into depression for about 6 months. In that state she was pretty much in withdrawal not only from me, but from life in general. The last couple of months she has been better. The story is on page 3 of the Profiles post in the Just Found Out forum. Since I posted that I'd say we've made slow but fairly steady progress and I'm somewhat more optimistic. Right now I'm probably more in conflict than withdrawal, and she's probably in conflict, with occasional signs of the state of intimacy.<P>As for signs of change, I think that a major sign was when she actively began to want to spend time with me, instead of our time together being just something on the schedule to be done. Wanting to talk more openly and honestly about both feelings and about what she had done was another, but that was further into the process. A desire to be affectionate also comes to mind as a sign to watch for.<P>Anyway, I think you are making progress, but are still dealing with the "safety" issue. As hard as it is with all the time you've put into this, you'll have to let her come out of her shell in her own time. It looks to me that she's showing signs of the state of conflict as much as of withdrawal, which is <B>good</B>.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>I first received a four-page note from my wife indicated how upset and disappointed she was...<P>every time she looks at me it still makes her feel so guilty ...<P>She felt that I pressured her to love me the way I love her...<P>She said she still cares and worries about me and is heartfelt for me...<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>She's starting to care enough to fight about things (state of conflict) and it <B>scares</B> her. Caring means vulnerability. Bottom line is probably that you keep up Plan A and don't try to control her or pressure her for committment.<P>The end of her A and the fact that she's talking about these things and says some nice things about you are very good signs, a I suspect you'll start seeing consistent progress if you keep your eye on the trend and not day-to-day ups and downs.<P>Some of the things she says do seem extreme, such as the sexual aversion coupled with the becoming a nun talk. I know its been a long time and if there isn't more progress in the next few months maybe you have to consider that major FOO or other issues are present, but I'm optimistic based on what you're seeing.<P>As far as a specific response, I'm still thinking . JL has certainly given you some thoughts to consider. Certainly tell her how much you appreciate the communication and the kind thoughts. Also let her know that you will care for her, treat her well, and not try to control her no matter what she does. Let her know that you are thinking about what she said. If she wants specific answers you might ask for a few days to think about it, but be sure that she knows you are doing so.<P>Anyway, this post has gotten long enough. I hope it is helpful.<P>Steve<P><p>[This message has been edited by StillHers (edited May 04, 2001).]

OOOO,<P>I read your last post. My inclination would be to NOT agree with her terms. Others wiser, hopefully will weigh in and give you more valid advice based on experience.<P>I suspect that she is "bargining" now. I think that is good, but I do think that you should respectively say that you are not prepared to answer her question. You didn't appreciate her notes were a demand with a deadline, and since she is asking you to make some hugh sacrifices and do somethings that may not be even in her best interests, this will require some thought, deliberation, and discussion.<P>I would further tell her, that this situation is far too complex for a simple "take it or leave it" approach since it involves her, you, and the children. Tell her you appreciate her need for space, her fear (hence the need to sweep the whole thing under the rug), and her desire for lack of contact with you. But mostly you appreciate her honesty. Tell her that you want many things, and her to be your friend is one of them. Since you take her at her word and trust she means what she says, then you are requesting that she honor you by at least giving you time to ponder this question.<P>What do you think OOOO? Do you think the answers above would side step the issue and buy you time? I think you need to. She is coming out. She is starting to worry that you will leave, but she cannot back down. Hence the demand, but notice she wants you to stay. Now you may argue, and correctly so, this is all a sham and she is just buying time for her grand plan of you two parenting until the kids are gone and then she will leave. That may be true. You could ask her, I suppose, how long this "agreement" would last if you did accept it. Also this is her way of "controlling" the situation, and if I recall correctly "control" has been an issue in your marriage. I wouldn't allow that if it were me, but this will require delicate "negotiation". She is the one that needs to change her outlook on the marriage, but this change will have to be forced in a subtle way by you.<P>Sorry, I cannot offer better, hopefully someone else can.<BR>Do send her the letter in the meantime. It is not addressing "her issue and offer directly" but your letter may set the stage for further thinking on her part.<P>Final, thought, I do believe that in some ways she is testing you. She is making very severe demands, to test and see if she has a chance of being accepted and protected. Negotiate with those thoughts in mind. You don't have to acceed to her demands, but treat them with respect.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

OOOO:<P>Without knowing the details on what a lousy husband ( ) you were beforehand, I can only guess to some of her issues. But this is what I'd do:<P>I'll tell her that you have pledged to love her, and that you do. Let her know that you are willing to live by the Policy of Joint Agreement---to do NOTHING without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse. I'd then impress her with your understanding of her not wanting to be sexually active with you at this point.<P>But, at this point you need to attempt to negotiate. I'd let her know that you do want to demonstrate your love for her, and that you will have to come up with some "mutually agreeable" ways to do so, that don't come across as you pushing. Let her know that you don't need to do it today, but that it does need to happen. I'd also suggest to her that the counseling is going to be something that you feel is needed, and (per POJA) let her know that you're going to have to negotiate that too. I'd let her know (if you can) that the discussion of the affair is something that you may be willing to forgo, if she is willing to work on the marriage. <P>Then I'd also let her know that the demands as she's stated them don't work for you... that you can't enthusiastically agree to them. Let her know that you're willing to do your best to negotiate her issues, and to protect and cherish her as best you can. And leave it at that.<P>My wife did feel "similar" to yours. She didn't lay it down quite in the wonderful illustrations of selfish demands and disrespectful judgements that your wife has. But she didn't want to discuss the afffair. She told me sex would probably be the last area to improve (I hate it when she's right... ). But most of her other posturing was just that---posturing to protect herself. And the best way through that was a loving Plan A. While you can try to negotiate your way back into counseling and to get her help---you'll never be able to PUSH her there. You've got to lovingly take the lead.

<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>