Orchid,<P>Sounds like she's doing a pretty good job of digging her own grave to me. I strongly advise letting OW go on the LB binge from beyond the fifth rung of h*ll t the point of frank creepiness. Then see how your H reacts.<P>In the meantime, smile.<P>belld

Orchid,<P>I don't think you need the LB fairie, I think psycho witch is doing enough LBing all on her own, like the tapes in Mission Impossible she will self destruct in a short while. Bite your tongue, for now give H the benefit of the doubt, BUT NEXT TIME DO NOT EARSE THOSE MESSAGES. <P>1. Your H needs to hear her psycho babble<P>2. You may need evidence in a restraining order.<P><BR>

Hi Bell & Sing,<P>Yes, mom I will be better next time. You are right. <BR>DONT ERASE THOSE MESSAGES!!!!!!<P>Frank creepiness, that is a new one. <P>Wonder what tomorrow will hold. Sounds like she is on a roll or H is pulling a fast one. Check in tomorrow on "How the A Turns". <P>Thanks for your support. <P>L.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mrsaxxeman:<P>#5: You told me you loved me<P>Blah Blah Blah<P>>>>>The OW said that to me. "But he told me he loved me". What did she think I had been hearing for YEARS, not MONTHS?!?<P>Also:<P>1. "My daughter will be heartbroken if you leave me". It was HER daughter, not his. Her father was some guy she "accidentally" got pregnant by who didn't stick around. Perhaps she should have thought of that before she started letting a married man she'd been boinking for 2 weeks start crashing at her house. Mom of the year for sure.<P>2. "I'll stand by you and support you during your wife's pregnancy". Let's add "Humanitarion of the year award" to that "Mom of the Year" award.<P>3. "If you go back to your wife she will leave you and take all your money." Like if we got divorced and he stayed with her he'd get to keep everything?<P>

<<< They say somber things like, "You're such a good person, you don't deserve that kind of treatment ..." Yada, yada, yada, blah, blah, blah, doorstop, turnip truck, parsnip, etc.<P>Then they start subtly insulting the spouse. If you insult the spouse, they agree. They are very good at goading you into insulting the spouse, even when you don't really want to talk about it. Then they grow bolder and just *outright* insult the spouse. It doesn't have to be anything blatant, like name-calling; in fact, the snarkier the better.>>> <P>Hey I think you worked with the same coworker I did when H and I were still just living together. This guy made no secret of the fact that he wanted us to date. If I made the least little remark "FutureH for got to take out the trash" he would jump in. "How can he treat you like that? If you were with me I would never forget to take out the trash. You could really do so much better." Of course this guy was pretty much a loser who didn't even know my H. But I could see if possibly I had been depressed, or things weren't going well how I coud have been buoyed by someone telling me how I had no faults and could do no wrong.

I finally thought of something I could add to this thread. <BR>I've never heard any conversations between my wife and OM. <BR>But, one day last July, before we separated, my wife's fog suddenly cleared for a moment. She told me with a lot of conviction in her voice that "I'm gonna end this sordid situation right now. I'm tired of the lies, I've hurt you too much, I'm going back to my psychiatrist, and maybe we don't need a legal separation after all." <P>I was stunned. She immediately went off to see OM. She came back a few hours later all fogged up again. To this day, she hasn't admitted anything more than "just friends." Don't know what he did, but he sure brought that fog bank back in.<P>WAT

WAT,<P>Please re-read my last post about how the OP suckers the WS in. WAT, it is SOOOOOO surreptitious that I don't think that the WS even knows it. It's done with semantics, body language, tone of voice, etc. How easy it is to be with someone who agrees with everything you say, who isn't angry with you, who seems to have a "logical" argument for everything, and who seems utterly in control while the WS is spinning out of control. Who better than the OP for the WS to turn to (from their logic, that is)? The WS *thinks* that they are getting a third-party opinion; when in reality, all they're getting is a copious brainwashing.<P>I could make up a thousand legitimate-sounding reasons for your to leave your W, and if you were in the right frame of mind, you might just agree. Just remember that your W is very weak right now, and therefore, very impressionable to anything that the OM says or does. I'm so sorry that she saw him, particularly when she gave you every indication that she would be resolute. It's just like the scenario Harley describes in SAA when Sue calls up her lover Greg and that's all it takes to get her pulled back into the "Fog" again. Unfortunately, until contact is severed permanently, she will always risk being in the "Fog."<P>belld

The one thing in life that my husband is not utterly self-serving about: Our son. My husband is a great father, and he really loves the kid. My husband himself had a wonderful father, and I know that he misses him. (Grandpa passed away long before we were married, but my son talks about him as if he knows him.)<P>So the kid became a great bargaining chip:<P>(Actually said)<P>1) I know how much you love you son, and you stay in a hateful relationship only because of him. Don't you? Huh huh huh?<P>2) If you were with me, I would love him like he's my own because he's a part of you. I know he's the only reason you stay with your wife.<P>2) Your wife must be a terrible mother to put her career first--I would offer to take your son for you, but I can't right at this moment (I have to ditch my husband and get a place of my own, that will take a few weeks.) <P>But it wasn't only the kid, it was the SEX, too. Remember, my husband being in the military and traveling a lot where he's not *supposed* to be getting any (they sent gross videos to each other via internet):<P>1) Whenever you need, I can do a great rendition of Miss Kitty (hence the name, 'Miss Kitty')<P>2) Hey!! You haven't asked me for any sex lately! What's the matter, did you turn into a priest or something?<P>3) Here's my latest pics--you better leave them on your computer, unless you don't care if your wife sees. You do still care, don't you?<P>But it was also me. Remember, they had a secret little term for me: 'The Predator.' (Isn't that nice?)<P>1) How could you go back to a woman who treats you like sh*t? (In all honesty, let it be said, the situation was quite the opposite, and she would have seen that if they had actually ended up with each other.)<P>My personal favorite:<P>"I can't wait to be a Marine Corps wife!!!!"<P>(And have my husband be gone for six to nine months out of the year while I am stuck in an apartment in a foreign county all by my self, ironing uniforms and having the neighbors gossip about me because I am an old who' who stole my husband from his first wife and kid.)<P>Sorry, I am a tad bit bitter yet.<P><BR>

This thread has given me a totaly new perspective on some words of OW's that have really burned my soul - but now i see them for what they are - manipulative. They went something like this:<P>I know you feel reall badly about how you have hurt W... I feel badly too. We have done wrong .. but it was fate .. we were meant to be. I know you care for her and respect her very much and that you have shared lots of good times. But that is not love. Not like the love we have. Whatever you decide I know you will always carry a part of me in your heart. it would be very unfair on W.. for you to go back when you will always have apart of me in your heart. etc. etc. Until we get to .. "Dont worry about me. You have been so special in my life. The person i thought would never come along. I will continue on without you. But i will always be here for you". YUK YUK YUK - BUT .. it was written on MAUVE paper in PURPLE ink.<P>I find it interesting that OW is late 30s and single (H is 20 years older!!) and has a reputation for having a "stable" of married men. Is she desperate/ manipulative/an inadequate person .. or just a witch ?? A friend has warned me she will "never go away" ie. it is her game and her life to have "relationships" with married men. She says she would never get married because "all men cheat" ...DUHHHH Am I missing the logic somewhere ??<P>R

Orchid,<BR>"Your OW" is definitely a psycho!!! <P><BR>I saw a few emails in which OW:<BR>- made a list of H's "wonderful qualities": wonderful lover, loving father, kind, affectionate, successful, blah, blah, blah... then a list of his "bad habits" - 3, one of which was me, "Cruella" (her nickname for me - oooohhh!)<BR> any man would fall for all the flattery - manipulative! - just a little<P>-she signed her emails with her first initial and initial of our last name, as if they were married!<P>-called the police and claimed I was making harrassing phone calls and emails!!! actually had H believing that they must have been threatening or she would not have called the police!!!!! (when it was other way around) - poor little thing! yuck!!!!<P>-claimed in one conversation with me that it wasn't about the money - yea, right! she does not have a nice lifestyle - told H that her H bankrupted them, that she was poor, etc - not about money?? and I was born yesterday!<P>-told H she had stomach cancer!!! another lie! - playing up to him to be her "rescuer" - to feel sorry for her - and it worked, he did feel sorry for her<P>-finally, in my one conversation with OW's H, I found out that there were obviously "others" - she even told my H in an email that she stopped "looking" after she found him!!! How can WS be so "stupid"? this woman is definitely not honest, and she is obviously a player - she told my H that she didn't want her H to find out about A in fear she would lose her children! whereas I said, no, she just wants to be able to continue having affairs til she finds some sucker who will marry her and improve her lifestyle!!!<P>Definitely, a lying, manipulative, b....!!! Did I also add I am bitter and do not have very good feelings for her?!! Ha!<BR>S<BR>

Ok, here is another one direct from the horses' end....<P>From OW<BR>"Just in case you'd like to know, an "affair" according to<BR>>the American Century Dictionary is: amorous relationship.<BR>>And, "amorous" means: feeling sexual love.<BR>><BR>>So, it doesn't relate to being with married people, or<BR>>single people. It is simply a feeling sexual love<BR>>relationship.<BR>><BR>>I guess we've both discussed this well enough to know<BR>>that our relationship had gone beyond that. We not only have sexual love but emotional love and we've fallen in love<BR>>in our hearts. Perhaps our relationship is better than<BR>>a marriage? Perhaps it IS a marriage. A real one.<BR>>We both seemed to have had missing, that "affair" that<BR>>we needed so much from our estranged partners."<P>Now,what is wrong with this picture? According to the Westster Unabridged dictionary an Affair is: "An amorous relationship or episode between two people not married to each other."<P>The way I read this, is that OW thinks A's are ok. She even thinks they are in someway married. Now do you see why I think this is such a dangerous thing? The EA makes them feel this. That is why the OPs can act like they own our mates. They are willing to twist the meaning of 'many' words to fit their excuse to prolong the A. Pretend they are married. Sign in a hotels like Motel Sex (or was that Six?) as Mr/Mrs. ______. <P>In a another e-mail, OW said "The heart is so much more wiser than the mind! The mind is such a sucker isn't it?"<P>Being reasonable does not work with those in the fog. Or am I just reading this all wrong?<P><BR>L.

Sorry, this duplicated in error.<P>L.<p>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited May 12, 2001).]