Heartache,<P>My intention in asking the question was not to make you upset or run you off. I hope you know that. You've been a good friend to me.<P>I was merely asking it as a way to understand and to help you and any others understand too. Sometimes we can't see things clearly when it's right in front of us. Then maybe someone comes along and BAM! A lightbulb goes off. That's the purpose of having friends and acquaintances, to help us. I was merely trying to help.<P>Sorry if I hurt you more than helped.<P>Mitzi

Mitzi-<P>Naw...................well yes-I was hurt-but only because I am allowing myself to stay out on this pitty pot. The last thing I would want someone I consider a friend to do would be to sit and agre with everything I say and think-when they know full well or even suspect I may be wrong <P>A good friend is an honest one!<P>I am just no good any more. I feel as if I am in a rut bigger than the state of Texas-and it sucks. I can't tell you the last time I felt really happy was............................<P>And yes-I do realize this is MY problem-in more ways than one <P><P>------------------<BR>*heartache*<P>"Life's A Dance<BR>You Learn As You Go.<BR>Sometimes You Lead<BR>Sometimes You Follow!<BR>Don't worry 'Bout What You Don't Know<BR>LIfe's A Dance <BR>You Learn As You Go."

Heartache,<P>I'm not saying in any way that you're wrong for the way you feel. I thought maybe I could give you another way to think about it. <P>It may be your problem, but it's also your H's problem. And we are here to support you and listen to you vent. AND to help you in any way we can! <P>Hang in there...it will get better! <P>Love ya and <B>BIG</B> (((((HUGS)))))<P>Mitzi

Hi heartache,<P>I hear you. I think that's why, in the end, I just couldn't continue with David anymore. There was just too much damned pain to live with. I kept hoping it would go away... and ya know, it did, for awhile, but when he cheated again, it was all FRESH again, as if it had just happened!<P>I wish I could have taken a pill to make it all go away, but there really is no such thing.<P>Platitudes, and "just get over it" simply won't work, will it?<P>I used to look at what Nellie would write - "It never gets better" and think, "NO, that can't be, can it?" but you know what? For *some* people, for *some* reason, it is impossible to forget. Add to that someone who just won't help (like an unrepentent WS) and you have a real mess.<P>I do believe that the "good years" in between David's affairs were made better by God's intervention. We had a marriage renewal ceremony in that time, and I thought we were doing pretty good - to be honest. Then the stupid idiot minister came on to me, and threw me for a spiritual and emotional loop and we left the church - and sadly - we left God too. I think that was the beginning of the end for us... because when I needed to be turning to God most, during my mid-life crisis, I ended up turning to this ick guy from work... you know the rest of the story... David couldn't handle that, cheated some more... and ta da... the end.<P>Why am I rambling? Someone hit me!!<P>I understand, that's all. <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino<p>[This message has been edited by Nyneve (edited May 19, 2001).]

OK...I read the Ann Landers OW letter<P>I'm far from perfect..but who is<P>But I will say I pampered my H. Even other men I have talked to said YOU WHAT....My wife never did those things.<BR>I did these things for H because I loved H and I knew he worked very hard....so I tried to make him more comfortable in any way I could. <P>** I made H coffee every morning (if H wasn't up yet)lots of times carried to him in bed...lots of times breakfast in bed, here I am out in the yard early cutting flowers, to carry w/breakfast (H had a hard time getting out of bed AM)<P>** H always had a nice meal when he came home.<BR> <BR>** Packed H nice lunch every morning...put love notes or poems, etc. so H would have a little surprise to brighten his day (after H left, one of his male co-workers told me I remember all the really good lunches H came in with, he said I remember the note, cards you put in his lunch. I said H showed me my notes, he said no but he saw them when he took them out. He said he thought damn if my wife ever did that I'd fall over. <P>** I had bubble bathes lot of times ready for H when he came home, filled the bathroom with candles and scents, had a drink waiting, clean comfy clothes ready and even gave the man a bath<P>** If H wanted something sweet at night, I'd be out in the kitchen baking cookies, or whatever he wanted (from scratch) <P>** If H was in bed and wanted something..I'd go get it, even if he woke up in the middle of the night (donuts & milk, ice cream etc.<P>** If H was too tired to take a shower, he fell in bed dirty, I even washed that man while he lay in bed.<P>** back rubs, hand rubs whatever he wanted<P>** I listened any time he wanted to talk or vent<P>** I didn't ignore him<P>** I gave him unconditional love<P>** I did most all the yard work <P>** I shared his sorrows, when he shared them<BR> <BR>** I never compared H with others that had more or made more<P>** I never made H feel inadequate because of what he doesn't have, I always told H be thankful for what we did have and that I knew he worked extremely hard doing his best and I proud of him. <P>** I stayed by H's side took care of him in the hospital, when he came home and all the times he was sick (chronic illness) <P>People have told me I spoiled H. I know I certainly catered to him. Than again in hindsight...H must not have thought so. H was the one that was negative and thought nothing was good enough. H had a low self esteem. I always had H's better interest at heart. Now H's heart is with OW and I'm still waiting for the FOG to lift. <P>I must have not done something right, H moved out 10 mths. ago & still with OW. But, had my H expressed any concerns, EN, etc. I know I would have been willing to work on them. Can't do it if you don't know. There were things I would have done differently, knowing what I know now...maybe it's just to late.<P>So as far as OW letter.....being more attentive to H...that's not all there is apparently! Like to see her living with that WH doing all the things his BS has to keep up with.....and see how she does! If OW had to go through day to day life, ups & downs, bills and problems, I bet WH would look at her in a different perspective and OW would probably look at WH in a different way. I bet things would be a lot different than OW fantasyland is now. <P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Hurtwife (edited May 19, 2001).]

Hi Sheryl-thanks for stopping by <P>Please let me clarify one thing-not sure if you know this or not. I could not-honest to God-have a better H. I am spoiled, loved, well taken care of..........everything so many wish for.<P>My problem is me-I can't let go-23 1/2 months and I still think about IT every day-numerous and lengthy thoughts.<P>That is my trouble.<P>Hugs to you-<P><P>------------------<BR>*heartache*<P>"Life's A Dance<BR>You Learn As You Go.<BR>Sometimes You Lead<BR>Sometimes You Follow!<BR>Don't worry 'Bout What You Don't Know<BR>LIfe's A Dance <BR>You Learn As You Go."

Hurtwife-<P>WOW-you are some lady I mean .....................your H must be NUTZ!!<P>One of the things you said caused me one of those Phil light bulb moments. Down near the end where you said you told your H to be thankful for what you did have.<P>My H would every once in awhile tell me how he was 35 years old-36 years old and "look what we have". We both left our ex's with little or nothing and had worked hard to gather back those needed and wanted items families ought to have. Anyhow.................I always told him-but I hadn't thought of this in a long time-how I was so happy with him that what we had was fine. What we wanted we would continue to work for.<P>See-this is one of the things I have been trying to get back in my memory when I try to ask myself what I did to make him want to eat his dessert elsewhere <P>I always told H "I LOVE YOU SO MUCH THAT I WILL ALWAYS BE HAPPY-AS LONG AS WE ARE TOGETHER". We are still together but I am not happy <P>He asked me tonight before he left for work if I regreted marrying him.........................<P>Thanks so much for refreshing my memory-it is gtting old and I can't remember much any more.<P><P>------------------<BR>*heartache*<P>"Life's A Dance<BR>You Learn As You Go.<BR>Sometimes You Lead<BR>Sometimes You Follow!<BR>Don't worry 'Bout What You Don't Know<BR>LIfe's A Dance <BR>You Learn As You Go."

heartache:<P>During a phone conversation w/H after he left, I told him I always put him first. H ranted "I didn't ask you to, I didn't make you, you did it on your own". I told H yes, your right, I did this from the heart, because I love you, care and have no regrets. (fog to deep, I might as well have talked to the wall). I asked H if he would give me an honest answer to a question, he said yes. I asked H if he ever once, just once, sat down and talked to me about what was bothering him....H said NO. Than I asked him if he thought I was selfish and self centered. H said NO, if anything you are the exact opposite. Than I asked H if he never told me, how was I suppose to know? H seemed to be lost for an answer...than said you knew...I told him I didn't know. I also told H he ought to know me well enough, that if he had talked to me, I would have honestly tried to resolve his issues. <P>I still feel for H, even though he has been extremely hateful towards me. I think he is going through a lot of conflict within himself and he just doesn't understand. I didn't either until I found MB...flashbulbs went off big time. I wish H could understand this. <P>I've been through enough HELL in my life which has, along the way, made me a different person (hopefully for the better). I try to look at the glass as half full instead of half empty (sometimes hard to do) with H it was always half empty. I figured out that H has a lot of issues within himself and that's why he is so unhappy, empty inside, but H doesn't get it. H left because he wasn't HAPPY, I told him he was looking in all the wrong places, OW, etc. and he would probably never be HAPPY until he faces these issues and puts them in the proper perspective, dealing with them instead of running. Because running, he is just taking it with him, there is no escape. I think H's deep seeded issues stem from childhood up and how he perceives things. All a frame of mind. I don't think H is HAPPY now, don't see how he could be. Seems H is just adding to the pile. Maybe H will "see the light" maybe he won't...but I know it will have to be him to realize this. <P>I think it's not just us BS's, it's other issues WS's have inside they just don't get. <BR>I just feel like I want to reach out and help my H figure it out....but this seems frivolous right now.(addiction & fog). So here I sit....HELPLESS and feel hopeless. <P>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR> RE: See-this is one of the things I have been trying to get back in my memory when I try to ask myself what I did to make him want to eat his dessert elsewhere <P>I wonder this also, but than again I think it's something within my H, deep seeded issues, that H is not HAPPY within himself. Therefore, H is looking to fulfill what's missing, the unhappiness, emptiness within, with the OW, materialistic object, etc. It may be a temporary fix, temporary happiness, but the problems are deeper. I had told H he needs to do some deep soul searching, which I know I also need to do.(I'm a work in progress) <P>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR> RE: I mean ...............your H must be NUTZ!!<P>Thanks (I needed that)...that makes me feel better...seems H has tried to make me think I'm the one who's NUTZ.<P>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<P> RE: My H would every once in awhile tell me how he was 35 years old-36 years old and "look what we have". <P>H had told me when he left...that he has started over before and he would do it again. <P>My H, after leaving, must have had a slight realization of what he left. Now this is just an example of how DEEP the FOG must be. H got an apt., H asked me "what about the shed" I said "what about it". H said he would come and pull it out of the yard??? I said and put it where, "in your apt.? Than H asked "what about the lawn mower", again I said "what about it, are you going to mow your floors?" <P>Last conversation I had with H was in Feb. H said I'm almost 40 yrs old and I have nothing....duh..wonder why? <P>Sorry, ramble ramble. <P>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR> RE: One of the things you said caused me one of those Phil light bulb moments. Down near the end where you said you told your H to be thankful for what you did have.<P> RE: Thanks so much for refreshing my memory-it is getting old and I can't remember much any more.<P>Your very welcome...glad it refreshed your memory. I know what your saying, I feel that way also. My mind is on what I call "overload", feel like I'm in a FOG. <P>Thanks for your reply. <P>All life’s decisions we made along the way,<BR>have lead us where we are today. <P>

Perhaps we would all have felt a little better about Ann's column if she had answered the letter differently?<P>Something more like: "Thank you for writing. But, I have a question for you - if you are so capable of keeping a man happy, why didn't you apply all of your efforts toward keeping your own first marriage happy? It IS very important for spouses to do their best to make each other happy - but affairs are always WRONG. I hope that by printing this letter, there are some wives who will realize and remember that there are women like you out there waiting like sharks for them to falter."<P>Bitter about OW? Who, me? Yep. I am. Without an OP, there is no affair. Without the shark...<P>But, there is something in heartache's post that stands out to me: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>but only because I am allowing myself to stay out on this pitty pot.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Then GET OFF! You have an opportunity that many of us would give body parts for - you have your husband there at your side, willing to work with you on having the best marriage there can be.<P>My husband is in Florida living with the slug. If either of us should be on the pity pot, I'd say I have the better reason at this point - but I am not going to let this destroy me. Heartache, sometimes things just <I>don't make any sense</I> and we have to accept that they just WERE - and CHOOSE TO KEEP GOING. Every day we have to make that choice until it becomes habit. Every day I make the choice to keep going with my life. I'm not exactly 'moving on' - I still want my marriage, my husband - but I cannot let what has happened to me become what drives my life except in a positive direction.<P>I am not a particularly good Christian in the eyes of many - I doubt, I question, I argue, I have my own ideas and interpretations and thoughts about what God intended or intends for us. So, when a friend suggested that I read Stormie Omartian's "The Power of a Praying Wife" I was very very skeptical. Honestly, I am still skeptical that it will help me in my current husband-less situation - HOWEVER - I understand why it works, and I think that it might be a good book for you to read. Whether or not anyone wants to acknowledge this, praying like this is a form of "self-talk" and also a way of 'letting go'... <P>heartache, I hate to see you in so much pain when you can choose NOT to be. I am not trying to be facetious - you are truly the only one who can move you from where you are right now...<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Hurtwife (lol-I typo'd and wrote hurtwaife first-lol-sorry)<P>Thanks again for all your beautiful insight!!<P>You are a blessing to MB <P>------------------<BR>*heartache*<P>"Life's A Dance<BR>You Learn As You Go.<BR>Sometimes You Lead<BR>Sometimes You Follow!<BR>Don't worry 'Bout What You Don't Know<BR>LIfe's A Dance <BR>You Learn As You Go."

terri-<P>I am sure I would have felt better if Ann had maybe said her part a little differently.<P>The pitty pot thing-I think my butt is glued-LOL I really do. I was doing better months ago than I am now.<P>Do I realize how lucky I am to have H here with me-wanting me and not anyone else? Sure I do! But I also feel like our marriage has been marred by his A-and I haven't ever been a good faker. I think I would relaly have to fake to pretend it never happened.<P>I will have to try and find that book-if you think it would be a good read for me.<P>I don't like being in this much pain either......................it seems like I bring it on myself when I truly have a very good life. I don't understand why I am this way-and therefore I don't understand why I am not making a choice to NOT be this way.<P>Guess I need to try harder-uh?<P>Thanks for all your kind words <P><P>------------------<BR>*heartache*<P>"Life's A Dance<BR>You Learn As You Go.<BR>Sometimes You Lead<BR>Sometimes You Follow!<BR>Don't worry 'Bout What You Don't Know<BR>LIfe's A Dance <BR>You Learn As You Go."

First let me state that I am seeing this as both a BS and, more recently, as a recovering WS.<P>My W has posted on here, and in the past few weeks we have shared much and compared it to our circumstances and have learned and progressed. We have come far: yet we have far to go--so Zorweb and I will probably be hanging around this site for a while.<P>The threads being spawned by this are great! But it reminds me of the story of the blind men and the elephant: each sees what they touch.<P>Having traveled extensively, and spent signficant time in the military, I have seen any number of A for many reasons. Dr. Harley's work is a HUGE step forward (repackage it and offer it in high school as "How To Be Happily Married and Live Happily Ever-after 101" ... a problem in our society is that we discuss divorce rates, etc. but not how to fix the problem [I digress, sorry]). Humans, however, are complex creatures. I have seen people with very high self-esteem have affairs, and I have seen "contented" spouses have A as well. Emotional needs are the CORE ... other factors come into play as well: mentally-related disorders such as ADD, psychological disorders, chemical dependencies and other addictions (those could be classified as self-medicating an emotional need, I suppose), etc. In Surviving An Affair, Dr. Harley points out the 10 most common ENs. There are others, and there are needs that are not purely "emotional". Remember when trying to meet the ENs of your spouse not to neglect the need for protection as well. If we protect each other AND meet ENs, then we will all have relationships that have the potential to be affair-proof, we will have created an environment that provides the best chance of success. (I say "have the potential to be" for a reason ... if I get too sanctimonius and say "will be", it will come back to haunt me.)<P>As for the BS contributing to the A: not all situations are the BS's fault. My W was legitimately trying to meet my EN, was trying to be a good, loving caring partner, etc. The fault was mine: I deceived her (I deceived myself as well, but won't attempt to self-justify here). Her only "fault" is that she didn't have the training to deal with a situation of which she knew nothing ... not acting on her inklings, perhaps (but again, my deception comes into play). If one reacts to a deception, how then can blame be passed to them? I do not in any way blame her for MY conduct and MY poor choices. As I said: each situation is unique, as are the causal effects that lead to A. As a BS I was self-righteous: I could NEVER do that. As the difference between a coward and a hero is only in the direction each runs, the difference from being a BS and a WS often comes down to a single poor decision: instead of running from it, we run to it.<P>We are all touching part of the elephant here: if we all describe the part we see, perhaps we will eventually see the whole thing.<P>In closing, I respond to the letter that started this whole thread: I will give the OW the benefit of the doubt, and that her motivation was to serve as a wakeup call. I find the response a bit weak, however. The disapproval of the conduct was not stated forcefully enough, and the "old world" mindset of "please your man if you want to keep him" falls woefully short of what Dr. Harley has shown us. Rather than rale at her for being ignorant, write a letter and educate her!<P>As for those who expressed thoughts of being naive ... no, I would say not: I would say that you are touching a different part of the elephant and thus see it differently.<P>Well, that's the elephant from my perspective,<BR>Godspeed and luck to all of you,<BR>STL<BR>

Well said, <B>Seen The Light</B>. <P>I would also add that it seems that many of us have been busy meeting the wrong emotional needs of our spouses. One of the things the Dr. Harley states is that the emotional needs of each spouse is different. For example, my need for conversation is much higher than my husband's--if I try to talk to him a lot then I'm trying to meet my own need not his. Important, but different.<P><B>heartache</B>,<BR>I feel so sad to hear how badly you feel.<P>Here is something that made me feel a little better...it seems cruel when you first think of it, but it's been expressed by more than one person here on MB (this is my own synopsis of the thought) and it really helped me go on...<P>The marriage I knew in 1999 is over.<P>Maybe it never existed the way I thought it did, but it was very real to me. That doesn't matter now, though. It's gone. Smashed into a thousand pieces like a vase and I'm never getting it back.<P>I had three options when it was smashed: <BR>1) Walk away.<BR>2) Pick up the pieces and try to glue them back together.<BR>3) Using the same materials, make a new vase (marriage).<P>I only spend enough time on the "could've, should've, would've" thoughts to determine my part in the precarious placement of the vase and to try to determine whether I think anyone will smash it again even if I'm more careful. And if I think that a nice fresh vase can stay intact, I owe it to all of the materials in that vase to do what I have to differently to keep it fresh and filled with flowers for the rest of my life.<P>All the best to you.<BR>--HBC