This is really really hard for me. It's been over 8 years since his affair, and the relationship has just deteriorated since then.<P>I think my most significant contribution to the situation was marrying him even though I knew in my heart he was cheating on me most of our engagement. And these weren't old GF's - these were new women he met during that time. I found out 2 weeks after we got officially engaged (after almost 5 years of dating) that he had been cheating on me for the previous 3 weeks -- so he was screwing this other woman when we told my parents of our plans to marry. The only reason I found out was because I caught him red-handed. I should have called it off right then. This was January. By February there was a new woman,but I couldn't prove that it was an affair. I'm pretty sure he saw her most of our engagement and that he actually ran into her when we were all out the night before our wedding. We got married in May and by September there was a new OW. That continued til we moved to another state.<P>I honestly don't know how our marriage could have deteriorated enough in 4 months to really contribute to an affair. I have always believed the behavior was more some serious character deficit in him. I ignored my instincts and kept plodding along trying to fix things and thinking if I would just _______, he wouldn't need to look elsewhere. I did things sexually that I despised in the name of trying to "meet his needs". I have done things I knew were illegal or immoral trying to be supportive of him and avoid seeming judgemental. I didn't pitch a tizzy or issue ultimatums when he was going to the OW's house to "play monopoly because he promised her a long time ago that he'd teach her how to play and he hates to break a promise". Why should he break a promise to the OW just because he got caught cheating on me? He had to go see her the night before we were moving out of state.<P>1. I guess I contributed to the breakdown of our marriage by not being totally emotionally honest and saying things were ok with me when they weren't. <BR>2. I'm probably not enough of a recreational companion because I'm so worn out from dealing with the realities of life. I've never been particularly "play oriented"<BR>3. I didn't have enough self-respect to set limits for what I would tolerate before we got married.<BR>4. I got married for the wrong reasons. I thought marrying the man would fix the immorality of sleeping with him beforehand. I did love him very deeply, but I was so intent on trying to "fix" my immoral behavior that I ignored the obvious problems that were red flags.<P>LG

LG,<P>I feel like you do a lot of the time. I knew that H had cheated on a live-in GF. Well, he says that she was only a girlfriend, but most of his friends told me that they were engaged. So I don't know what to believe, really. H says that he did tell her parents that he was going to marry her, but that he never meant it, so therefore, they were never engaged. Whatever.<P>I fell for the same lines that OWs fall for - ye olde "soulmate" line. I cannot believe that I did that, and allowed myself to get sooooo caught up in the "romance" that I didn't really *see* who he was. This was not a man who had treated the women in his life with much respect. But oh boy, I thought that I would be "different." Special. Unique. I *knew* that he would treat me better and that he would "change" because of me, because my illustrious presence in his life would make him a "better" person, whereas all of the women before me failed. Because we were (ta-da!) "soulmates!" I was 29 years old at the time. I had no excuse for having the mentality of an adolescent girl. <P>So I'd like to add my own arrogance into the mix, too. I thought that I was more "special" than the others. Wrong move.<P>belld

Well, let's see. . .<P>When he yelled at me, (which he did almost every day) I sometimes cried.<P>For instance, once he screamed at me for picking him up from work late--it was the first time that I had done so, and I had gotten lost. He hollered "Yeah, you always have an excuse, don't you? Don't you ever take responsibility for what you do? Do you ever admit that you are wrong?" By the time I had exausted himself of yelling, I was sobbing. He grumbling "Yeah, we have a real happy f**king marriage, don't we?" (Therefore, he has the right to cheat)<P>On rare occasions, when I couldn't take it anymore, I yelled back. He would pick and pick and barrage until I was at the breaking point. Once, before class (we were in a military school together) I smacked the door with my notebook on the way in. He says now "You wanted to make a scene so that everyone would see and feel sorry for you, poor little Mary." He carefully logged all of these occasions down in his little mental file labeled: "Mary is an unstable, out-of-control witch." (Therefore, he has the right to cheat)<P>And always, when he yelled at me, I withdrew from him. For instance, one day, he yelled at me as we were getting ready for work. So, I walked out the front door without saying goodbye. He said "Well, GOODBYE!! You cold hearted something or other. What's your problem?" See, I always deserved my punishments. And he always forgot about his anger--in fact, according to him, he did nothing wrong. Oh, yes, he always remembered that there had been a conflict, but it was always because *I* must have done something wrong. And he always remembered my reactions to the verbal abuse, of course. Which were always negative in some way. Either crying, fighting back, or ignoring. (Therefore, he has the right to cheat)<P>Read the chapter on "Angry Outbursts" in the book, "Love Busters." It tells you that a person who is angry usually forgets what happens during the throes of anger.<P>This is convenient, because I am available to take 100% of the blame for each and every time I make my husband mad. According to him, he has done nothing, and even if he has, I must have deserved it. (This gives him the right to cheat)<P>Everything makes my husband mad. He is an obsessive worrier, and even if I haven't done something wrong, I MIGHT be doing something. I PROBABLY will do something wrong. Knowing me and my skewed thinking, it is inevitable that I will do something wrong. So he has to keep me in check.<P>Oh, and of course, he is certain that I don't love him, that has been his general theme since the day that we were married. Nothing in the world can prove that I do. Not notes, cuddles, kind words, letters, nothing. I just plain don't love him and I never have, according to him. I am just using him for his money. Getting pregnant 'on purpose' three months after we married and trapping him with a kid was the method I used. (This certainly gives him the right to cheat.) By the way, now he says that the kid is the best thing that ever happened to him, but you should have heard it when I told him I was expecting. He said, snidely "Who's the daddy?"<P>You see, I always could have been cheating on him (because I really didn't love him.) Once, I accidently sat next to a MAN at a basketball game, vixen that I am, and before I sat down, I smiled at the man and said 'hi.' I heard about that one all afternoon, on and on and on--you see, I was "flirting." And once, I even came home from duty with scratches all over my back from the air assault course (low crawling under barbed wire does that.) But, according to my husband, I was lying. I had been in bed with a man, that's how it happened (I guess he had claws.) Funny, my husband and I had a great sex life, I couldn't have wanted (or given more.) <P>But because I potentially could have (or in fact probably was having) an affair, this too gave my husband a right to cheat.<P>Oh, that's another thing. My husband always tells me that I am lying. I lie about everything. If I ever screw up (as I do, being human) and I give my husband my reason for misjudgement, misguidance, laziness or poor decision making, my husband tells me that I am just lying and trying to cover my butt with a weak excuse. I am devious and cannot be trusted. (Therefore, my husband had every right in the world to cheat.)<P>Oh, all this in spite of the fact that I call myself a Christian. You see, all Christians are hypocritical, self-righteous people who put their trust into a mythical character and pronounce themselves better than others because of it. You see, I really did try to make myself into a good person--strong, intelligent, and independant--for myself, for my family, and for my Father in Heaven. My husband was not interested in such nonsense as a diety, and for that reason, according to him, we had no objectives in common. (So another reason for him to cheat.)<P>Oh, not only religion, mind you. If I express an opinion or make a suggestion on anything, from the trivial to the grand matters of life, then I am threatening him. I am imposing on him. I am trying to control him. I am trying to get my way. If I try to tell him that I am not, he simply tells me that I am lying about it. Because I am such a control freak, it gave him every right to cheat.<P>Never mind that I DID, in fact love him very much. Never mind that I gave of my time, devotion, assistance. Never mind that I tried to keep myself attactive for him so that he would be proud of me. Along with that, I gave him a beautiful child and tried to be a good mother to that child. I rushed home from work to be with him, nothing ever was a higher priority to me than my family, my husband. I did as he wished, I gave him what I wanted. I would have bent over backwards to make him happy. I never once neglected him.<P>Oh, but the day came when I stood up for myself after being yelled at. I told him that he could do or say what he wanted, and I wasn't going to listen to the BS. I also told him that I was re-enlisting in the army because I was tired of being told over and over again that I was using him for a meal ticket and being dependant upon him (which is exactly what he wanted so that he could have me in position of submission.)<P>I stood up to him and told him that I would never again cry over anything he said to me or did to me. Neither would I react with anger. I had finally figured out that he was angry with himself and disappointed with himself and was using me as a sounding board. I would not take another day of it.<P>That's when he decided to cheat. He wanted another woman to take my place--it says in Love Busters that an angry person can spend a lifetime looking for people he gets along with, and I see that it is so true. My husband was looking for someone that he could get along with. Because I asserted my independance and vowed to not take his crap any more, not another day of it. Does this make sense?<P>So, of course, the fact that he cheated is of course, all my fault.<P><BR>

Bernzini,<P>What you wrote here (except for the jealousy), sounds like what happened in my previous marriage. Yes it does make sense. I could not tell from your post if you are still married to him. My experience is that a person who is like him will not change because they deny their anger and culpability. My husband our never admit to his affairs either. I was just jealous of him and his female friends. That is why I left him.<P>I do believe that unmet emotional needs are the root of all affairs. However, there are some relationships in which a spouse cannot meet the other's (WS) needs. Sometimes the need to so deep rooted, so distorted that it can never be met. You husband and my ex will never find anyone they can get along with - their anger and denial will always get in the way. So, my solutions was to leave him and get on with my life.<P>Take Care<BR>Z<p>[This message has been edited by zorweb (edited May 21, 2001).]

Bernzini,<P>Our H's are separated at birth. I'm convinced. My H has pulled the same stunts in the past. He has even said the VERY SAME THINGS. He is a very angry young man for the most part. And I cannot do anything to help him, nor do I feel inclined anymore. It's his job to do that.<P>Just remember that the OW he chose will/would have (as applicable) "slipped up" and eventually received the same treatment. And there would have been yet another lying, deceitful, mentally unstable woman in his life who didn't love him. <P>Please know that you can try your darndest, and your H will not feel your love, because to him, love is about allowing yourself to be controlled. The way he *wants* you to show your love is to meekly confess to everything and accept the "punishment" that goes along with it, over and over and over, thereby allowing your H's fragile self-esteem to remain intact. He gets his validation by knowing that nothing is ever his fault - that it is someone else's. But I think that you already know that.<P>It''s hard to see into the mind and motives of a verbal/emotional abuser, because everything they do is a back-asswards way of receiving self-validation. My hunch is that if your H took responsibility for even one of the times *you* allegedly erred, he might start feeling truly good about himself. But I could be wrong.<P>Hang in there, kid. You are not the only one, okay?<P>((hugs))<P>belld

Zorweb--yes, we are still married. As grumpy as I am to resolve this marriage (I am supposed to do the plan A thing, right? Hm.) I cannot go through another divorce. Plus, would you believe it? I still do love my husband deep down. You see, I have realized that he is not verbally abusing ME per sey. He is just angry at the world in general and is really busy lying to himself about his imperfections as a human being. I am the one to bear the brunt of those imperfections--not because I don't love him because he's not perfect. He doesn't love himself (although, from the elevated way he talks, you never would have guessed) and I have to deal with it.<P>Naw--This marriage is nothing like my first. The first had no conflict whatsoever except what was going on inside of me. We never fought. But you could be right--I am a serial co-dependant.<P>Bell--I told ya they were twins. Except that my husband isn't a young man. He's in his late 30's and a respected military officer. No one in the world understands what I deal with. On the outward appearance, my husband is a great guy. Almost everyone likes him on a work/ casual social basis. He's quiet and hard-working. Who could have a problem with that? No one would believe me about how he goes off.<P>I read a book on verbal abuse and learned that this is often the case with people who are verbally abusive--they feel threatened by the people they are closest too (spouses) because they know their 'secrets.' How they really are. Their imperfections. It makes them feel vulnerable, I guess.<P>I really kind of hate the topic of this thread. It was brought up on the D/D board a couple of months ago (yeah, I was there for quite a while) and there were all these people confessing to stuff like 'I loved him too much.' 'I gave her everything.' Like these are bad things! Nobody MAKES their spouse cheat on them! I swear! I don't understand blaming yourself and putting yourself through guilt and heartache for trusting, loving, giving (but never quite enough, to the WS.) I think the Emotional Need not being met is a crutch that a lot of people use. My emotional needs have not been met in this marriage and I have not cheated once, I have never had the inclination to either. And I busted my butt!!!!!! trying every different way in the world to show my husband how much I loved him, including leaving him along (that's what he said he wanted.) I don't think that I did ANYTHING to make my husband cheat, sorry.<P>Like I said, I still do love him, only now, after the affair, I have a hard time showing it at all. I can't even say it. And I can tell he is waiting for me to say it. (My friends all say that he should be kissing my butt by now--as if!!!) So it's probably a matter of time before he cheats again. And I am outta here when he does. I think that I spent the last six years giving all I had.

After living in Hell for the past 15 months of my WH's affair, and reexaming my marriage of 19 years, I agree with the other posters of being the one who did "everything" in the marriage, finances, kids, worked, cleaned house, took care of all the business while my husband worked, worked and played. I began to get resentful of me having to do everything when my father got cancer and I had to totally take care of him and his business matters and still everything at home, with no help or offer of help from husband. THen the straw that broke my LB was when my father got bruttally attacked and we had to go to court for the trial and my husband was scheduled to be at a school and did not change his schedule to accompany me to the trial. I had to get a police escort home as they were afraid the criminal's family would do damage to me because of his sentenance. I have never gotten over the feeling of not being loved and I let all that resentment build up and lost respect for him. I carried that into the bedroom and I guess sex wasn't good for him or me. When I discovered that my husband was not good in crisis or in supporting me I felt betrayed and lonely. I hate that I maybe had too high of expectations for him, but now I trully see after what he has put us through, that he was not the man I thought he was and I am surprised that we lasted 19 years. I know next time, I will not control everything, I want a strong man, not a weak one, but I am fault too, for not allowing him to take control of himself and his family.

Just a quick thought, as I also wrote about on Bill's thread...<P>I wrote the "Out of the blue" thread for a specific reason, which I outlined on page 2 (?) of the thread. I **was** caught completely off guard by my ex-H's affairs - although I have always been quick to take responsibility for my part in the breakdown of the marriage.<P>My ex had five affairs throughout our 20 year marriage, and in year 18 I had a three month affair that about ruined my ex's (and my, for that matter) psyche, body, emotional state and ultimately the marriage did not survive. When he had affairs I was expected to simply overlook them, for what reasons I'll never know. When I had my affair (and I take 100% responsibility for it!) he could not get past the pain, and began the last two affairs of his, that did end the marriage.<P>So, being on both sides of this thing gives me a insight that I wish I didn't have -- but I do. <P>My part in my affair and his affairs was that I believed that we would be married no matter what happened. I took the marriage for granted. I was naive. We married pretty young, didn't really know each other, and thought our "love would pay the rent"... when it didn't, and the REAL pain came, it became too much to bear!! <P>I lived through abuses that have been written about way too much on these boards, as well as childhood pain, sexual abuse, and myriad other problems (some horrific) in my life -- but none, not one, equals the pain of divorce.<P>Sometimes, I am finding out with my thread, you do all you can, be a GREAT spouse, and still your mate will stray.<P>That's the sad, sad truth. <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino<p>[This message has been edited by Nyneve (edited May 20, 2001).]

Well, OK, I take that back about no one in the world knows what I deal with. . .you guys do.

I am answering having seen both sides: as a BS and now as a recovering WS (see Zorweb's first discussion in this thread).<P>In my previous marriage, when I was the BS, there were many EN that I was not meeting; and was not having met. It took 5 years to drain the love bank to the point where we both were emotional zombies. That was pre-Harley, of course: all we knew was that "things weren't the same" anymore. The situation was compounded by manic depression on her part. LB's abounded. In other words, we did everything to ensure that my exW would have an A.<P>Now the shoe is on the other foot (a word to the wise here: don't EVER be sanctimonious and think that as a BS YOU could never be the WS: humble pie and foot-in-mouth do not go down easily ... and the difference in being a WS or a BS is a very fine line: a particular set of circumstances at a particular time ... the fog sets in rapidly, let me tell you). In Zorweb's case, I would agree: she had little to do with my A ... she was honestly trying to provide a good home, be a loving W, etc. However, I deceived her (and myself in the process) ... and therefore, her actions in our marriage were predicated upon a deception on my part that "all was OK". That I did not articulate my EN to her is MY shortcoming.<P>The point in this is that generalities are precisely that: generalizations. Each situation, while sharing many common characteristics, is also uniquely different. And that applies to a BS' "blame" in the WS having the A.<P>Well, as you can tell by Z's indignance and anger, the generalizatoin hit a very raw nerve. She was royally ticked. We talked about it. So here I am pointing out, as a WS, that the BS (in this case at least) did not contribute to my A. It was a combination of many factors leading me to make some really poor choices and, once made, to continue them.<P>I thank God for Z discovering and sharing Dr. Harley's Surviving an Affair ... and then having the courage and grace to let us implement Plan A and begin our recovery. The book, and this site, have had a profound impact on us, we are on the road to recovery: it is a long road, and we have just cleared the toll booth. A steep entry price on this particular road ... but the reward is in the final destination.<P>Godspeed and good luck to you all,<BR>STL

Took a while, but I think I figured it out:<P>-I took my marriage for granted. I thought that since we were "first loves" and "soulmates" that our marriage would last forever, it was meant to be. I did not think I had to work at it.<BR>-I provided for my husband too much. I let him get too dependent on me for support which made him feel trapped / low self-esteem. Even though this is what we both PLANNED, I did not see the impact it had on him...<BR>-I should have dragged him kicking and screaming to counseling when the problems started 2 years ago instead of thinking we could figure it out on our own (2nd daughter born - he can't deal with her - he's a stay at home dad)<BR>-I worked too much and did not take his pain as seriously as I should have. I could have prevented this (hindsight).<P>-I fulfilled all of his EN's, but the reason the EA happened is because he found another college woman that could also meet his most important EN's (affection,conversation) AND did NOT make him feel trapped. i.e. with her he had freedom again (no kids, can go out and have fun, no responsibilities). <P>It's the only thing I can come up with, especially after he filled out the EN checklist and I am everything he needs/wants and my only LB is talking about the EA/OW and trying to get him to realize the mistakes he's making. SIGH. <BR>What I don't understand is, if I'm right, why does he say he loves her and not me? It doesn't make sense. Oh, he says he cares about me an awful lot and I'm a very important friend/companion, but he just doesn't love me - he loves her. <P>I hope he comes out of the fog soon, I miss him. I also wish I could be certain he was actually IN A FOG, and weed out the possibility he actually truly loves her and should be with her... My heart/body/soul tells me it's a fog, but he tells me otherwise.

Wow. I love and hate this question at the same time. <BR>1. I got pregnant after 11 years of marriage and it changed our free and easy life. <BR>2. I was expected to "run along and play" but by the same token be there for him when he needed me, (ie drop everything, make no committments, so I could just drive somewhere with him for a couple of days while he worked) even tho. I often had to do things alone that we had planned to do together because he had to/chose to work.<BR>3. Had second child to keep first one company, 3 years later. I wanted a family, whereas he would have prefered a token child just for my entertainment (or none at all).<BR>4. Had third child 2 years later (not planned), moved into new big dream home and all of this just became overwhelming to both of us. <BR>5. Needed big house to keep ahead of his "collections" but he started to see it as my idea for entrapment. <BR>6. I couldn't leave three small children with anyone so I could go off on his business travels with him, so he found someone who was available to do so.<BR>7. I was the down-to-earth, outdoorsy fit and active woman he married almost 20 years ago, but his job was putting him in daily contact with magazine women who boosted his ego because he was percieved as being rich and powerful (and would spill his guts about how trapped he felt). I didn't know he wanted me to be more like them since he'd always loved me the way I was (and he wasn't spilling his guts to me, he was "too tired").<BR>8. We tried going on family holidays but he always found them hell when the kids would fight. We did not get a lock on our bedroom door and we had no privacy from them day or night.<BR>9. I allowed him to enjoy private sexual fulfillments in our home, but without me, and we got out of the habit of having sex. A naked woman does not turn him on. He needs alot of decorations, which I found hard to deal with since most men would say I have a perfect body.<BR>10. I got in the habit of critizing him when other women were boosting his ego.<BR>I think he felt abandoned when I was so enslaved by three small children. Don't know how I could have changed that, except that he wanted to be nurtured and I had three children to mother. It's interesting tho, that the OW he was having the A with also felt derperately trapped in her job and her LACK OF H AND CHILDREN and he somehow thought he could "help" her with this. Two desperate people looking for a change I guess.

I think this is important to think about.<P>XH: I was a 20-y/o virgin when we started dating. We married 6 months after we first met. He told me during the divorce that he felt pressured to marry me because he took my virginity. <P>Early on, I began to resent my relative lack of sexual experience during our marriage. I had a crush on one man or another, like musicians or movie stars, pretty much all the time. I was incredible immature and self-centered. I think he picked up on my frustration and desire to "experience" other men, though I never admitted it. I hit on his boss one time (and got shot down royally!). That hurt him deeply. I only realize now, after painful experience on the other side of betrayal, how deeply I hurt him.<P>I wanted instant husband and family and didn't want to work too hard for anything. I wanted a child when he didn't. I forgot to use my diaphragm regularly, then whoops. I knew no matter what that I would raise my child with or without him. Words I said to him, that haunted our marriage the rest of the time. He felt abandoned and used, I would imagine, which is probably why he quit his job the year before we split up, started playing tennis and surfing every day, and hanging out with the guys etc.<P>Not to mention we were dirt poor most of the time...<P>CURRENT MARRIAGE: Not sure why H strayed (on the Net). It happened early on in our marriage. It seemed to be some kind of reaction against getting married. He was used to Net sex and porn, and took a long time integrating himself sexually into our marriage. <P>I also suspect he might not have been very attracted to me at that time, though I know he loved/loves me. I think he liked a certain "Type" and I knew I wasn't that type...not really an issue now, I think...<P>Hope this helps.<p>[This message has been edited by CinDrLa (edited May 21, 2001).]