Terri and others,<P>I have never posted here as I have been an OW for nine years and do not feel it is my place. I have considered for some time posting to Terri and, occasionally, others, but have refrained. However, I feel that perhaps I might be able to offer some insight which might be helpful. If you find it not helpful, please just leave it and go on knowing I intended no harm.<P>I want to speak specifially about sexual orientation. To many, sexual orientation is defined strictly as homo or heterosexual. However, there are other sexual orientations which are actually just as powerful as being hetero or homosexual. Specifically, I am speaking of those who need to express their sexuality through dominance and submission or Sado-masochism. <P>People who have this need are not "sick." In fact, there are more out there than you think. They do not need to be "cured." As long as the sexual interaction with their partner is "safe, sane and consensual," there is nothing wrong with the need to express your sexuality in this way. Nor is it a choice. Once does not simply choose to have this need. Usually, if you talk with people who are oriented this way, they will be able to tell you that aspects of this (either as the dominant or the submissive) were part of their earliest (even pre-sexual) fantasies. <P>Here is where the problem occurs. Many people of all but our youngest generations were taught that such an orientation was wrong and perverse. We rejected it and thrust it from our minds. We often married someone to whom we would never communicate these needs. Terri, I know you have communicated to your H your willingness to explore these areas of his sexuality. However, let me share with you, as a person who also has the same needs as your H, that you either "are" or you "aren't" into it. And, revealing your needs to someone who is just "playing the role" to meet your needs is horrible and degrading to the person with the needs. You are offering to do with love what they need, byt they feel pandered to and they feel you can never really "get it." You weren't made that way.<P>Terri, understand that I am not making excuses for your H (or myself). I am just trying to tell you that the pull your H feels for the slug may be very strong indeed, because she "gets it" sexually insofar as he is concerned. And, like it or no, sex is the main path to intimacy between a man or a woman. Even if it fades, the memory lingers. So long as your H as this sexual (I suspect D&S/S&M) bond with the Slug, he will not leave her. Terri, the WS I am in love with loves his W. But, she could never in a thousand years meet his sexual needs, never. Has she offered? Yes. But, imagine revealing your deepest sexual fantasies and needs to a person who doesn't understand them and would have to "play-act" to do them. Pretty awful. This is not to say that you can't fulfill those needs for your H and might even want to. Sometimes I wish I had written sooner as to how to act sexually with him. If you get another shot and you want my advice, let me know. But, if you don't, know that it isn't because of you or because of how much he loves you. It's because he has deep drives and needs which the slug meets, and, yes, these outweigh many other needs. By the way, if it is any comfort, the need for D&S/S&M is usually exhibited by people with higher IQ's. And, from what I've read, you already know your H is very intelligent. Please don't own too much of this tragedy that is your marriage. It may yet turn around; but, if not, please don't "stand" forever. It may just be that he is sexually oreinted differently from you. And, there is nothing to be done about that.<P>I hope you are not offended by this post. Please believe that I mean no harm and only hope to give you some greater understanding to alleviate, at least a little, your pain. Maybe do for you what I cannot do for MM's W.<P>JAL

I am not Terri, but I do have some questions for you. My WH is involved with a know hooker. I know that he was involved into some kinky sex and found books and porno on our computer that to me was totally disgusting. The straw that broke the camels back so to speak was that he shaved his private area completely and didn't tell me and I was shocked when I saw him. What does that mean, is that a new thing in the sex world. The thing that I don't understand is that with all the diseases and dangers out there why do people break the safety of their marriage bed to expose themselves to this evil. GOd ordains that sex in only good and fulfilling within the confines of marriage, that is why I think that people doing it out of marriage are continuing to experiment with all these other things to fulfill the need, just my thought. Please respond, I really have led a sheltered life and don't know much about this! THanks. SEF

Lurker.....I do not mean to offend you, but what on Earth are you doing at this site which is to help couples rebuild their marriage, especially after finding out that their SO was wayward? Offhand, I can only believe that perhaps besides being the OW for nine years, you are married and have trouble in that relationship???? I hope that you didn't come to prey on the unfortunate spouse of the person whom you are involved with. <P>On the other hand, your post is informative and a real education for someone like me who doesn't dwell in this realm of the sex world. I'm a firm believer in doing "whatever floats your boat" as long as no one is hurt from any repercussions that may arise from the same. <P><P>------------------<BR><B>Time heals all wounds as long as you DON'T pick at them!</B>

SEF,<P>I understand how confused and in pain you must be. Try to communicate to your H (if you truly feel this) that what happens in the intimate private space between two people is just that, intimate and private, and you are willing to understand and try and meet his needs. But, also be prepared to deal with the possibility that he may have needs which you find "disgusting". What if he does? Do you expect him to change those needs to meet your definition of "normal"? Are you in the "right" because of your mainstream needs and him in the "wrong"? If this is your attitude, expect failure. That having been said, also understand that you should never, NEVER do anything sexually which you do not like, which makes you feel uncomfortable, etc. If your spouse's needs are such that they make you feel this way, then perhaps it's better than you part.<P>Louise,<P>Why am I here (why did I post to Terri?)? Because, these are issues which are real in some relationships (see the above post) and which must be addressed. "Curing" the "sick" partner is not the way to go, trust me. At best, it's a temporary fix. Why am I here? I have nothing to gain by being here (posting, that is). I just felt so for Terri and I felt I might have some insight into her (and possibly other) situations where these types of needs are concerned. That's all.<P>JAL

JustALurker,<P>I am curious about something: Why did you choose to post this now? This has not been discussed here for well over a year. What prompted you to post now?<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

SEF,<P>I wanted to particularly address the "shaving" question. I have no idea what this might have meant between his hooker "lover" and him. Sometimes, in a DS/SM relationship, the dominant partner might "order" the submissive partner to shave. On the other hand, sometimes someone does it simply because they like the "skin to skin" feel that comes with it. After all, women shave...why not men? You need to explore more fully with him (w/out disgust and shock) what it was that turned him on about this. Yes, shaving, by a man, is not the "normal" thing. But, maybe it's what turns him on? If so, can you deal with that? And embrace it? Talk to him. Talk to him.<P>JAL

Terri,<P>Guilt, maybe? Seeing that your H has left for Florida? Trasferring, maybe? Just trying to reach out and comfort another soul, maybe? I think the answer is that it had gone on long enough. When your H actually did move, I thought...OK, he's made the move. She really deserves to have a deeper understanding of this. I've read your posts all along. That's the risk you take when you post publically, Terri. Anyone can read. I have a few books I could recommend on the subject, if you are interested. And, I sense there are others here dealing with the same circumstance who might benefit from reading them. It's really not an uncommon issue. But, I know how out of touch I felt with my XH, how completely alone with my sexualility, the guilt, the shame. Not making excuses, just can see the other side. <P>JAL

<<I just felt so for Terri and I felt I might have some insight into her (and possibly other) situations where these types of needs are concerned. That's all.>><P>Touche', JAL......There are a lot of painful stories posted here and elsewhere where the insight of another party could be useful in a particular situation. <P>Glad to see that you are out of the "lurk" mode for now...<P><P>------------------<BR><B>Time heals all wounds as long as you DON'T pick at them!</B>

I appreciate the thought. <P>I have a very close friend who is a top, so I understand more about this than you might believe. I have a pretty high IQ myself, so I have done a lot of reading about sexuality and D/s and S/M in particular.<P>But I have to take issue with the idea that sharing your needs with the person you have chosen as a lifemate is somehow demeaning. How demeaning is it to the faithful spouse to be thought of as not good enough or important enough to be told this? Give me the information I need to make an informed choice about my own life - Don't make the choices for me. THAT is demeaning.<P>Again, thank you for the thought.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

xxx

<small>[ June 02, 2004, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: skye ]</small>

Terri,<P>I think that the real "rub" comes in when you feel that the spouse, yes, the spouse you married and love, isn't "there" with you...in the intimate, sexual sense. I guess I can only liken it to being straight or gay. Really, and I've talked to others, many others, about this as I've dealt with it myself over the years, this is the best analogy I can think of. So...extrapolating from that...let's say that you are "gay" (BD/SM) married to a "straight" partner. That's how it feels. Honestly. I'm not justifying here...I'm just saying that's how it feels...to not just myself or my partner but to many others, too. The problem is that going to your spouse, yes, your spouse whom you love and trust, and asking them to "act" a certain way to fulfill your needs just doesn't begin to approach fulfilling the need. Now, I am only speaking for myself, my partner, and the opinions of many others in the "scene" I have spoken with. Of course, every situation is unique. Perhaps what I offered has no bearing whatsoever on your situation. I do appeciate your graciousness in your reply to a post which must have been painful for you. It shows the stuff you are made of. I wish you the best.<P>JAL

Skye,<P>I in no way meant to demean or insult Terri with my post. If my post was/is of no use to her, then she should just leave it, and I said so. I actually greatly admire Terri's patience and perseverence in this situation. I only hoped that in some small way I could shed some light on what she MAY be dealing with. There are so many different problems and dynamics out there. Her posts struck a chord of familiarity with me and I finally decided to write some of my thoughts to her. Judging ("underestimating") her was the furtherest thing from my mind.<P>As to my own personal situation, I have not disclosed it and therefore cannot (will not) respond to your attacks. I had nothing to gain by posting other then to offer some advice. If my advice is repugnant to you, so be it. Don't take it. I doubt it is relevant to your situation, anyway. <P>Terri, you might ask your top friend for a reading list. Even if it does not advance your own battle, it might give you more understanding. Again, if you would like, I can either post or email suggested reading. Most are readily available on line or at large book stores (all the more evidence that it's not so out of line). <P>Terri, you are a strong woman who obviously loves her husband very much. Whether you can be what he needs, I do not know. I sense that maybe you can. That is, in part, why I posted to you. Of course, I could be way of base and I'm not one to draw broad conclusions simply from posts. But, in any event, do what's best for you and hang in there.<P>JAL

JAL,<P>You miss that most important point here. When a person is married, they have promised to forsake all others. This means that they have promised to explore the sexual aspects of their lives exclusively with their spouse. Nowhere in the marriage contract does it say, "Except if you get a wild hair or want to experiment with D/s & S/M ".<P>Your posting sounds like just one more OP trying to justify their actions by making the BS seem somehow deficient. This seems to be the week for OP postings. As a BS, I resent your condescending attitude that only you, the OW, could possibly know what is needed.<P>Did you ever think that if you sent him home, to deal with his issues with his wife, that he'd have to act responsibly? Gee what a concept.<P>And what of his wife's sexual and other needs that are not being met because he is spending time and energy with you? Is that not wrong? Are the WS's sexual needs the only important ones? I think not.<P>Terri's response to you is right on.<P>Z<BR>

I in no way meant to justify my own situation. I do have to say that unless one is oriented in this way, it is difficult to understand how strong the drive can be. It is far more than just a "wild hair." It does, with many, go to the absolute core of one's sexuality. I might also add that there are many who have broached these subjects, sometimes very obliquely, with their spouses, only to be met with repulsion, outright rejection and disdain. If all here were to be honest, more than a few would raise their hand for those reactions. What of that? Imagine how soul-killing that might be? However, it is still no exccuse for infidelity. I am NOT making excuses. In any event, one can, simultanously, not make excuses but also try to convey the strength and power of these drives. That is all I have tried to do. If you feel you have nothing to gain or learn from my post, than please just leave it at that. I have no desire to argue with anyone.<P>JAL

This makes me MAD!!! I don't even have words to say it.<P>So you are telling me that if I don't let my husband nail me in the poop chute and slap me on the butt while we are being intimate, I can just forget it? (Believe me, he's tried, coming fresh from HER bed, and it was the antithesis of pleasure.)<P>I am not going to say it's disgusting--hey, whatever floats your boat. But in my book, it's demeaning and humiliating. It is not lovemaking--it is agression. If he wants to work out his anger, there is a gym with a punching bag about a half mile up the road and there is a pretty good sensai with a popular bo-jitsu class going on. If he wants to damage and destroy and look tough, he can go there, not to my bed.<P>That's what sadism is--agression. It is using someone else's body to see exactly how mean you can be. And people that dig excruisating pain and being submissive--hello?!!! What does that say about your own self-worth as a human being.<P>I would call this consentual rape--any psychologist would tell you that rape is not about sex. It is about rage and the need to overpower another individual.<P>Lovemaking should be just what it is--loving. Bonding as a couple for life. Sharing the ultimate pleasure with your life-long best friend. If your idea of pleasure is to torture someone, then you have got problems. <P>Did le Marquis de Sade die a happy man? I doubt it--he spent his whole life seeking more and trying to satisfy himself--there is nothing that can satisfy a cruel person. He spent a good deal of time in prison for his sexual predations. If you can call a life of ostracism and perversion a productive and worthwhile life, whatever.<P>Did the Madame de le Marquis de Sade die a happy woman? She stood back loyally while her husband indulged in torturous games with hundreds of other women (and men.) So how much more of an enabler can you be?<P>I for one, tell my husband if pursuing that kind of pathological activity is more important than his family, his little son, by all means, just tell me and I will walk away to leave him free to do it. All he has to do is be honest and his dreams will come true.<P>Please don't try to tell me that people that dig this aren't sick people--they are people who rationalize, and ignore their problems.<p>[This message has been edited by Bernzini (edited May 29, 2001).]

I agree with bernzini et al. I understand you are trying to be helpful, and give you that benefit of doubt. However an affair solely taken to meet physical needs, not the unfortunate messiness of troubled marriages where one simply falls in love (or thinks so) with another person, is unconcionable. Not only for the ws, but also for the om/ow. Seeking sexual satisfaction elsewhere, while wanting to have the benefits of marriage is beyond a simple mistake, it is a cold calculating assault on the humanity of the BS. I don't care how powerful the orientation is or isn't, you TELL your spouse and accept the chance you will be divorced, you also accept you will absolutely not act on your urges while married, while the issue is being resolved. That someone would have an affair for 9 yrs as ow on this basis is beyond belief, and another sad statistic re the depths of depravity wo/men sink to. You have no conscionable basis whatsoever to be the ow, and while your information is useful, as is understanding the mind of a psychopath and such, you still need to come to grips with your own facillitating behaviour. It harms you to be an ow on this basis, as well as being a threat to a stable society. Affairs are not good/justified in any sense, but they at least are understandable when the goal is marriage to the op. Affairs based on the depravity of seeking sexual satisfaction while keeping it secret, for the purpose of binding a spouse to a marriage they might otherwise leave, is beyond understanding and possibly the understandable basis for the old testament biblical laws requiring death for adulterers (that cures std's, and the continual deception to the innocent party).<P>I have no idea how you could participate in an ow relationship just for the purpose of sex, my brain cannot comprehend such an aggression to the innocent (and unknowing) BS, you should instead call her, and this man should be revealed. But I do have an idea about your implication sd/sm is just another way of "doing" it, and is a strong orientation. That is pure self-serving malarkey. I have no doubt there are large numbers as you imply, and many with so-called strong drives, that is not the basis for claiming good mental health however. Sexual dysfunction covers a lot of psychological ground, and the idea that anything one can dream up or desire is ok implies that somehow sex is exempt from mental health issues, hardly makes any sense. In the final analysis any sexual activity must pass a mental health filter, even so-called normal sex can be highly dysfunctional (if the mindset is power, such as date rape for example, or sex that is used to make the other partner feel used, or rewarded/punished for another example). I reject the notion of sexual orientations, sexual desire is a complex biochemical/psychological issue, if we call every nuance a orientation, then we all have an orientation, a unique one, and can be "excused" and "understood" in our pursuit of same, that is clearly nonsensical. Sex is not something to be embraced without limit, anymore than gluttony, or greed are, yet we all need food, and money too. IMO it makes reasonable sense to assess that sex which is focused on violence/pain/helplessness is a sexual dysfunction, needing to be treated and resisted. I will forgo the more extensive argument here, but is not a difficult one to make. It is true that in "normal" sex there are feelings of wanting to be vulnerable, to be taken, and such, and can be acted on in a healthy manner..... and that sd/sm has it's roots there. But like gluttony, acting on these feelings to that degree is harmful, and a perversion of the loving bonding that sex should be.

Justalurker,<P>One thing: Sex does not = intimacy... You also fail to mention that S&M is also predominant in sex addicts, alcoholics, drug addicts, sexual compulsives and/or those with deeply inbedded security scars. Not all that participte in S&M are just into it for the "intimacy". <BR>As for the sharing of sexual fantasies, again, this does not equate to inimacy, it can be representative of an individual leading a dual life or fulfilling fantasies no differntly than with a paid whore.<BR>One thing you must take note of. When a WS leaves his marriage for this type of attention or even that of a gentile sexual connection, he is living in a lala land. There are no bills to pay, his partner is extra partner only focuses on him, no laundry to be washed, crying children to settle, children showing up in the bedroom while your making love or dinner dishes to be put away. There isn't a spouse on this board that would not have given life and limb to have the one-on-one, nothing to interrupt, desired time that you have your OM. All of our sex lives could have been improved if we were granted the quality of their time you were. <BR>Suggest you read some of the materials referred by this board...people are here to heal, move-on and reconnect. Your onesided, shortsighted commentary is incomplete and states ONLY the views that you need to believe.

I have read nearly every book recommended on this board, including the Marriage Builders books. I would equally suggest that until you have read some of the more insightful books about D&S/S&M, you might, just might, be lacking in understanding of the subject. Again, I think that for those who are oriented in this way, it is best likened to an actual sexual orientation. No, sex does not equal love, but being able to express your true self sexually is an important element of love. If that door is closed to you, then you lose one of the most basic elements of yourself. Yes, for some, S&M/D&S is an expression agression and anger. Unwell people abound. There are also plenty of sex addicts out there who never experience this type of sex. But, for many, many people, it is simply the deepest and most soulful way they have to expess their sexuality. And, when you find a partner who understands and cherishes this deep aspect of yourself (rather than finding it revolting, demeaning, frightening, sick, repugnant, etc. etc. ad nauseum), it becomes all that making love can and should be between two deeply connected souls. Would it be sufficient unto itself? Of course not. It must be complimented by all the other factors necessary for a good, healthy relationships. However, for those who need to express their sexuality in this way, any relationship that is lacking it is also insufficient and a place where it is simply impossible for us to thrive. For most here, this topic is simply not an issue. But, for those who are dealing with it, I merely hoped to provide some insight, insight that only one who is oriented in this way could possess. It was not offered with any agenda. I am secure and happy in my own relationship. Likewise, I gain insight by reading the experiences that are shared here that I could not possess. Nothing more or less.<P>JAL

Sad-n-Lonely,<P>Interestingly, my partner's W shares your views. She feels that his needs are a disgusting perversion and that he needs professional help to eradicate them. However, when he did finally tell her about them, she offered, in desperation, to meet them, no matter what they were. That was a very, very sad moment for both of them. They have been separated for three years now and were not having sex for a few years prior to that. Obviously, sex was not the only problem in their marriage, nor is our relationship based solely on it. But, within the confines of a monogamous and loving relationship, it is, for us, the most intensely spiritual and beautiful sex either of us has ever known. I can only speak for our experience, of course.<P>JAL

JAL:<P>I have been following this thread with a bit of interest. You have hit raw nerves here.<P>Following your line of reasoning, I would be entirely justified in having an A if my W were not to meet a deviant emotional need. "Whip me, beat me, cater to my sexual pain, baby, and it's OK if I go outside my marriage to find it."<P>I particularly note the fallacy of your insights into the normalcy of sexual activities that involve SM/SD behavior. Yes, there are self-justifying books on the topic(s); but they are exactly that: pseudo-psychological treatises to make people such as yourself justify their behavior.<P>Conventional psychiatric and psychological wisdoms (i.e., the prevailing majority, nonself-justifying view) is that such sexual behaviors are manifestations of deeply-rooted inadequacies. The man does not need your submissiveness to deviant sexual behavior: he needs psychiatric counseling. Alas, it would appear that this will not happen. Neither he nor you shall seek that course: you are too caught up in self-indulgent sexual gratification.<P>As a recovering (non-SM/SD) WS, I have seen the light: it is a hurtful self-indulgence, no matter what "spin control" we put on it. In your case, you furthered the destruction of a family unit by nurturing an emotional need that was founded (a) on his psychologically treatable sexual dysfunction and compulsion and (b) provided him the means, by supporting his weaknesses, to further the widening rift between himself and his W. Had he sought the proper medical help, his relationship would be solvent and all the pain and harm would have been avoided.<P>Alas, the words I say here will more than likely not penetrate the wall of self-justification you have erected to protect YOUR inadequacies, but it is said. Amazing, is it not, that the lie we initially perpetuate can take root until even we believe it? I hope you find the way out of your fog.<P>Godspeed and good luck,<BR>STL