JAL<P>You are still missing one of the biggest points here. When a person enters into a marriage they make a promise. Your man's wife entered into the relationship based on that promise. She gave years of her life to him based on that. He had not right to marry her if he was not going to give her 100%. Justify as you may. But he essentially stole from her. And then you have to audacity to speak of her in a condescending manner.<P>"But, within the confines of a monogamous and loving relationship, it is, for us, the most intensely spiritual and beautiful sex either of us has ever known. I can only speak for our experience, of course."<P>Are you telling us now that you are in a "monogamous and loving relationship" with this man? Do you expect him to stay monogamous with you? What a riot!!!!!<P>You see, when a person is involved in affairs they are using two or more people to fill all their needs. So several persons function as one. He is not used to getting all his needs filled in one place, you helped him develop that habit. So now, where is he going to get his other needs met? It sounds like one of the roles his wife filled for him was the need to feel superior. He was able to put her down and be abusive of her (not having sexual relations with her is one of the worst abuses a person can perpetuate). So whom is he going to use now to make himself feel like the BIG MAN? <P>If I could, I would love to give this man's wife a hug and tell her that she did not deserve what you and he did to her.<P>Z

JAL,<BR>I suppose you think married men are the only targets through which you feel you can have your particular sexual needs met?<P>Zorweb,<BR>you are oh so correct!

Jal,<P>There have been a lot of words and opinions expressed here by many. Let's make this simple. <P>If this 'thing' is ok and sanctioned by 'many - in the know', is it something you would teach your children? Pass off to them as a 'loving act'? <P>Mutilation in various forms for whatever reason has been used as a excuse or validated by many for thousands of years. Religions have rites where bodies are mutiliated and people even sacrificed (even little children). Various national groups have this as part of their culture. Are these acts of love? <P>Your definition of love and acceptance is warped. It is disgusting to me to see people take a word and twist it to santction hurtful acts. What you are physically doing (SM,etc.) the OPs & WSs are doing emotionally and mentally to their families,friends and to their God. Oh yes, the physical act of adultery is also included in this and you your counterparts have managed to this one grotesque further. <P>Makes you wonder who is really behind all these bad ideas that the world is accepting and what is actually bad in your eyes? Do you really have morals? Is there anything that your conscience actually prevents you from doing that is harmful to yourself and those around you?<P>What gives you the right to promote this kind of practice? Are these ideas inborne in all your kind of people? Is your 'textbook' material identify which of the young children are going to follow your example as an instinct? Your practices are worse than those in the animal realm. Animals do things by instinct not by conscience. Yet, you have degraded yourself below that. <P>I am not sure what your beliefs are but there are several accounts of those of higher beings that fell from their God given place and basically turned into sexual deviants. Their offspring suffered as a result and had to watch their fathers die. Their mothers were wrought with the pain of producing children out of this mixed union who due to the origin of their fathers were violent and deviant persons. <P>Is this just story? No this is a historical account. Now to the question: Who was behind that event? Who is being what you are promoting now?<P>L.

I think the point that may of us are trying to make is this: Once the covenant of marriage is entered into, it is wrong, no matter what the need, too exit that covenant for any need. Some women are married to men, and vica versa, that have been wayward that have never experienced the type of sexual pleasure they wish they could receive. Yet, they stay faithful while their spouses go elsewhere.<BR>Simply put...you can not always have or get everything you want. Once the covenant of marriage is entered into, the sharing of bodies is limited to H & W...period, end of discussion. What is being implied here is that if a w's spouse has an unusually small penis, because her sexual preferences and/ or fantasies are not being fulfilled she should seek the attentions and fulfillment of a more endowed gentleman. On the flipside, you are suggesting that a man that has fantasies and desires that he "thinks" his wife is incapable of or uninterested in, even as simple as sexy underwear, should freely seek that elsewhere.<BR>Your arguement can be applied to any excuse for adultery...it simply does not hold true to any moral, psychological, intellectual or emotional code of conduct. Sexual fetishes are not the end all of relationships, if they are, there are truly individual character problems that are much greater.

JAL,<BR>I am curious what Bibical backing you have for your theroies?

Heartscry...are you asking me or JAL?

I have never said that infidelity, under any circumstances, is acceptable. Certainly, simply not having your needs met within the relationship is no excuse for infidelity. I thought I had made that clear. I am not using complete lack of sexual fulfillment as an excuse for infidelity; it is not. <P>However, obviously, people do stray and some of them are not fundamentally bad, evil people. Otherwise, why would anyone want to retain a marriage with them? The outcome of an affair is either reconciliation, permanant separation/divorce, or (the least desirable of the three) a permanantly unfufilling marriage. In the case of both myself and my partner, option two was the one we ended up with (I was married when we met but am now divorced; he remains married but has been separated for nearly three years). However, this does not make us incapable of monogamy anymore than it makes anyone who strays subsequently incapable of monogamy. Obviously, many here are pinning their hopes on the belief that someone who strays can be subsequently capable of monogamy.<P>Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is apparant that the majority here feel that anything that falls outside of "mainstream" sexuality, particularly, I suppose, D&S/S&M is a "perversion", "deviant" and fundamentally wrong. If that is your view, and you are certainly entitled to it as I am to mine, then anything I might have to say will be useless to you at best and more than likely disgusting to you. The best thing to do would be to ignore it rather than attack it. My personal view is that what is safe, sane, and consensual and takes place within a strong, loving, equal, private monogamous relationship is best defined as "right" or "wrong" only by the couple involved. My relationship meets these criteria on all counts, so I am comfortable with it.<P>My point in posting was to illustrate to Terri (who, it appears, has already thought through the entire situation in a very nonjudgemental way of her H and others and did not need my advice) that these types of needs, these deep aspects of one's sexuality and the need to feel safe expressing yourself in this way, can sometimes play a huge role in the success or failure of a relationship. Again, I am NOT saying it is appropriate to commit adultery because one cannot be sexually fulfilled in a marriage. However, if it is entirely and completely impossible for someone to be sexually fulfilled in a relationship, that is obviously a very serious problem that may lead to divorce. In both of our cases, it was not the sole problem, but it was a problem and a big one.<P>I am happy to answer any questions if I can be helpful. However, when people feel as strongly against something as so many here do (i.e. expressing yourself sexually in a non-mainstream way, even within the privacy and confines of a mongogamous marriage or relationship), then there is probably little to discuss. If a thread degenerates into simply taking shots and calling names, than it's time to call it a day. I'm sorry that I could not provide any insight into this problem that arises in some marriages. I think it happens more often than you think. I don't claim to have all the answers. But, I certainly have some, as does everyone here.<P>Again, I am more than happy to answer questions, just not to engage in circular arguments. If there are no questions, we can all call say adieu.<P>Good luck to all on your journey,<P>JAL<P>ps: I meant to address the question about biblical teachings. No, I do not base my experience of my sexuality on biblical teachings. Never did. It's a whole big world out there with many religious faiths. I believe strongly in taking time to honor God through ritual, and, for that reason, I am a practicing Catholic, having been raised as such. However, my views much more closely approach Bhuddism.

JustAlurker, thanks for posting your viewpoint, you really got me thinking...even though I am not Terri, and I don't agree with you.<P>If none of us can change anything about ourselves, as you seem to be implying with S/M sexual appetites (for example) being set in stone, then what are we doing here at MB? Why is the self-help industry flourishing? Why read the books, listen to tapes, watch Oprah & others, or learn new/better ways of relating and enjoying our lives if we are predetermined by something inherent to act in a certain way our entire lives?<P>Where is the line between the negation of personal responsibility by saying "this is the way I am, I can't change" versus "this is how I choose to live"?<P>Taking it to the extreme, prisons are full of people who have acted on, or believe, their compulsions--some certainly sexual--left them no choices.<P>I have no problem with acts committed between mutually consenting married adults. But adultery hurts the betrayed spouse, and I don't find that kinky sex as an excuse is any better than any of the other foggy excuses. And I have been both WS & BS and do have at least that understanding of how affairs may happen and what keeps them going.<P>Terri is a strong woman who is very capable of defending herself...her H has made a bad choice with the slug...no matter what led him there.<P>

Lor,<P>By labeling the way I experience my sexuality as "kinky sex" you are, whether you realize it or not, denigrating it. I completely agree with you that the inability to experience one's true sexual self in a marriage is not a reason for infidelity. Absolutely not. However, infidelity is the easy way out, and, unfortunately, too many take it. <P>As to where you draw the line....well, I think that's for each individual to answer. I know that for myself (and I think I can also speak for my partner), the way we experience our sexuality is not something that can be or even needs to be "fixed." Both of us have sought the advice of psychiatrists and therapists and we struggled with ending our marriages, both for the issues of our sexuality and the many other issues that accompanied the demise of our marriages. My partner, because his W begged him to, even went to a sex therapist several times, both with and without her. The conclusion was that he was sexually healthy, both mentally and physically, and that he was finally comfortable with how he expresses himself. Why, I ask you, should he try, maybe undertake years of therapy, to change himself (with the probability being that he would not succeed)? Why is the onus on him to change? Simply because he is the one who has non-mainstream needs? Both my partner and I were reinforced by our therapy. The therapists did not tell us that we were deviant and sick. To the contrary, they told us that we were actually much more comfortable with our sexuality than most people are. <P>So, as to that line...well each person here and their WS will have to decide that for themselves. How much can they and how much are they willing to change, to fundamentally even distort themselves, for the sake of the marriage? This works both ways. To have had my partner's W engage in D&S when she has no understanding of it, no desire for it, simply to please her H would have been a TRUE perversion, in my opinion.<P>Lor, what exactly is it I have said that you do not agree with? I do not think that infidelity is right nor do I think that unfulfilled sexual needs are an excuse for it. Beyond that, what do we disagree about?<P>I agree about Terri. I have followed her story and she is an incredibly strong and resolute woman. It's just that when these factors are involved, it may be a hopeless fight. Or maybe not. I can only offer my own personal experience.<P>JAL

Jal,<P>You have responded to some of the questions being asked here and that is good. I am going to rephrase my thoughts again, since I am trying to understand how this thing you are promoting can be a 'good thing'. <P>It has been mentioned that it is ok as long as it is between 2 consenting adults and you are both ok with your sexuality. Truth of the matter is, this world is not made up of just 2 people nor only of consenting adults. Based on this how do have you or do you propose to raise children under this type of environment? This is a question that is raised at all levels and all situations. The element of responsibility plays a very important role here on our responsibility to society. <P>If a man enjoys being a pedofile does that make his choice ok as long as he is not caught? No. How can one break up a family unit and except to leave unscathed? Walk away and throw your hands in the air? Claim no responsibility?<P>I think your views (you have a right to them) are selfish and greedy. The consquences of your 'rights' affect others. Yet how often do we make adjustments in our lives to accomodate the feelings of others? Everyday. Big ones and little ones. It is part of the circle of life. Give, take, share and care. To remove this delicate balance by being greedy due to some 'need' is to create havoc. <P>Again, if this is such a 'beautiful' way of life, then why does it cause so much misery?<P>L.

JAL,<P>You said, "I completely agree with you that the inability to experience one's true sexual self in a marriage is not a reason for infidelity. Absolutely not. However, infidelity is the easy way out, and, unfortunately, too many take it." <P>You also said that infidelity is wrong. I think you misstated this. What I believe you are saying here is that infidelity was ok for you and your OM because you had this higher need. Now that you are in this relationship with him, it is not OK because you don't want your partner to cheat on you.<P>If a person has this struggle in their marriage, the ethical way to handle it would be to first solve the problems with their marriage. If their spouse cannot meet their sexual needs, and this need overrides all other needs. Then they can end the marriage. Only after they have ended the marriage should they pursue their BD/SM desires. No married person has the right to trash the other one in the manner you and your “friend” did to your spouses. <P>This forum is for people who are trying to better their marriages and themselves within the confine of the marriage covenant, which they hold to a high regard. Pleas realize who your audience is here. <P>One thing I have never understood is when a person brings up a tough topic then complains because people are trying to have honest open discussion about it. No one here is really attacking you. We have very strong feeling based on our beliefs and live experiences. So we express ourselves strongly.<P>I could careless what you and our friend do in privacy. I may or may not engage in some of the same activities with my husband. I don't know because I don't know what you are doing. I'm pretty open sexually as is my husband (SeenTheLight). We'd go for anything that does not cause us any physical and/or emotional harm. You come to this forum talking to us as though we are prudish people who know nothing of sexuality, etc. Some of us resent that.<P>The point here is that you broke up two marriages and then are able to justify yourself. I find this increasable. Sorry if my views are too hard for you to take.<P>Z

This is one of those threads that is basically going to go nowhere fast... its is like at work somethings are better to not discuss since "we" will not come to a mutual agreement and the best thing is to decide to disagree and allow each of us to have a personal opinion.<BR>Seems that the one basic thing that everyone touches upon is that infidelity is wrong and justifying it because you have a certain need that can not be met is not something that Lurking person is saying... she is saying that "unfortunatly" people do this and then get out of their marriage... seems to me that we are trying to get each of us to change our minds and she is not disagreeing she is stating that this happens anyways,,, and I think that at this point all sides have been viewed and the chances of anyone changing their minds or all of a sudden being enlightened are slim to none... sometimes you have to know when and who to choose your battles with and others let them be. Also, she attempted to give some info that while some did not like it was just a different viewpoint and in the spirit of being open minded and just "listening" does not mean that you will agree or even understand where some people are coming from... boils down to tolerance and taking something with a grain of salt and understanding the point of reference from each person and no way will there be a concensus here..<BR>my 2 cents

JAL,<P>Just because a drive is strong does not make it any less wrong. Pedophilia is a very strong drive - many experts believe it is incurable. Yet very few people think it is in any way acceptable. <P>Just because you have a strong drive to do something doesn't mean you have a right to act on it. The question is really which is more important, to pursue pleasure or to do the right thing, to keep vows you have made, to not hurt the ones who love you and depend upon you. Life is not about the pursuit of pleasure. <P>You claimed that this type of "orientation" is long-standing, beginning in childhood. If that is the case, it would be cruel and evil to marry someone without letting them know about it ahead of time, just as it is cruel and evil for someone who is homosexual to marry an unsuspecting spouse. <P>

JAL,<BR>The term "kinky" is denigrating? I did not know that, just thought it was less visual and graphic than some other terms I was considering.<P>Other than that, I disagree with the premise that the detail of S & M/D really makes the affair different. Many WS/OP think their affair is "special" "unique", "soulmated". They think that if they ski together or shoot pool, they think that if they both like the same sport's team --who else can they watch the game with? You may think I'm trivializing, I am not, next to our counselor & MB, I think watching the St. Louis Rams together saved our marriage, and I'm not joking one bit. The thing that holds 2 people together is completely an issue of orientation--what they hold in common, but what that thing is doesn't necessarily make one affair addiction worse or more tight than another. Given a choice between a Rams game in the TWA dome and any kind of sex with anyone...my WS H could very well choose the game.<P>So, you think this particular kind of sex makes the connection more powerful. I disagree, I think it could be anything you thought it was...where's the study on sportsfanatics and affairs? (The former OW in my H's case was both co-worker and on a pool team.) I doubt that study is out there, not interesting enough, also very subjective, as is any sex study.<P>Let's go on with this analogy...Did I "warp" myself when I, a non-sports fan, began to enthusiastically participate in watching football? I don't think so, in fact I enjoyed learning the "language & culture" of football, like I have other studies I've done. Do sports drive me? No. Does my H appreciate that I do so? YES. <P>Is that so different than when your MM's W offered to meet his sexual needs? The difference is my H found my offer loving (one of his high ENs is recreational companionship vs sexual), you call the MM's W's offer "TRUE perversion". So what if she didn't exactly know the scenario? She was offering to learn, to see if she enjoyed something she hadn't tried. Why would anything between a married couple be perversion? And...you started somewhere, did you at first "understand and desire" every bit of what you do now?<P>Even though you say infidelity is not right, you are saying in your case, it is "special".

Orchid,<P>It happens that I am a mother and a good one. What does what I do in the privacy of my bedroom have to do with that? How does it affect it. Let's say a monogamous couple enjoys pretending that the female is a hooker. Just a game they play. She dresses up in fishnets and a mini and this totally turns him on. No one else knows, certainly not their children. It is a private and intimate sexual matter between the two of them. Are two such people incapable of being good parents? Being an adult who has a need to express themselves through D&S/S&M is not the same as being a pedophile. There are no "victims" in my situation. Instead, there are two adults, sound of mind and body, engaging in a satisfying, monogamous, safe, sane and consensual relationship. The sexual aspect of this relationship is manifested in private and others are not privy to it nor are they affected by it. Why, I ask you, is this such a great evil?<P>Zoreb,<P>I do not see myself and my partner as the exception. I have said repeatedly that infidelity is wrong and, yes, that includes my partner and I (and your husband). We realize and acknowledge that it was wrong. Of course, we should have addressed the problems in our marriages first before we stepped outside of them. Yes, we broke our vows. Well, since this board exists, it appears we are hardly unique. But, that doesn't make it right. One can acknowledge that the infidelity was wrong, one can even apologize to their spouse, and one can still not remain in the marriage if it really can't be fixed. Neither my partner nor I could remain in our marriages. That doesn't mean that we don't think that infidelity is wrong, regret that we chose that path, and feel remorse for the pain we caused. I can assure you that we do.<P>Nellie,<P>I agree with you. If one realizes that this is what they need and they knowingly marry someone who cannot meet these needs, this would be wrong and evil. The problem is that many who have these deep needs repress them (hardly surprising given the reactions to them on this board, wouldn't you say?). They don't understand them. They are afraid to discuss them for fear of rejection and disgust. And, sadly, that is often precisely the reaction they get when they do broach the subject. So, I know that neither I nor my partner knowingly married people who we knew could not meet our needs. We were both much more mature before we began to deal with these issues. We are not spring chickens by a long shot. I am not making excuses for the fact that we committed infidelity and caused terrible pain. But, I can honestly say that we did not understand ourselves when we married. I can also say that I would never, ever marry someone now without first making sure that we were compatible in this way. <P>JAL<BR>

Zoreb,<P>I meant to add, I don't think the people here are "prudish". I have no basis to make such a judgement. It is a bit off-putting to see how little understanding there is of different sexual needs and labeling them as evil, perversions, etc., but I also expected that. I did not mean to preach. The only reason I posted is that it was clear to me that these issues MIGHT have come into play in Terri's case. And, quite honestly, I'd be willing to bet they are present in others, too. So, as a person who, I feel, understands these issues from viewpoint of someone who does have these needs, I thought I would share my thoughts. I have no desire (or need) to judge you or anyone here. <P>I am not a person who just willy-nilly ended my marriage nor is my partner a person of that ilk. Both of us went through a great deal of anguish (though nothing like his W; my H didn't care so much) and introspection to get to this point. We also got professional help. We really have gotten down to the core of what we are about, perhaps in the same way you and your H have. The experience of adultery was just as soul-baring for us. The end result was not restored marriages. That's the difference. And, while the adultery was very, very wrong, ending the marriages was very, very right. For us, individually.<P>JAL

What a sad state this world has come to.<P>

JAL said,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Neither my partner nor I could remain in our marriages<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Why is it that WS's so often use words like "can't." No one was holding a gun to your head. Leaving your marriages was your choice, just as having an affair was your choice. <P>It makes no difference whatsoever if you did not "understand yourself." You made a vow. End of story. Maybe life isn't perfect, but you make the best of it. What if you were to decide to have a child, and then realize that that was not what you really wanted, that you didn't "understand yourself" when you conceived. Does that give you the right to desert your child? You made a commitment to the child that is lifelong, and if it interferes with your ability to be "happy," - tough. Every time you make a decision to do anything, it means you can't do something else. Some decisions, some commitments are permanent, and irrevocable.

Since I egged some of this on with my kinky sexual questions, I must follow-up. The bible is the place that gives ALL THE RIGHT ANSWERS! Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife. THere are two examples. ALso if marriage was entered into and done "GOd's Way", where the husband loves his wife as CHrist loves the church, then there is never any problem with submission to sex or anything else. I would imagine in most affairs settings, mine included, my WH was not loving me like Christ loved the church so therefore I had little desire to submit to his lovemaking submission. Women need love and emotion to have good sex, men just need it physically. But if my husband was to help me around the house, plan trips, dates, take me to lunch, etc., I would have loved to have sex with him, it would have been great. I had sex at least 2 to 3 times a week, which I didn't think was bad, but it was his need and choice to go out of the marriage bed. What a disaster, our sex life was even worse after that and I am sure he is ruined for life. It is only in the confines of marriage that God blesses a "Great Sex" life, obviously that is why you are still experimenting and seeking. Seek Christian counseling regarding sex and see if you won't repent and do the the right way, God's way.

An aside to Concerned1:<BR>There is a distinction to be made between intolerance and taking a stand. Taking something you feel strongly about "with a grain of salt" is called having the the salt rubbed in the wound. It appears that most here are taking a stand, and most are taking it with a grain of salt (but not the whole shaker full).<P>Re the crux of it all:<BR>Fundamentally, JAL admits her A was wrongful behavior. It is not the purpose of this forum to "convert" her thinking on sexual preferences. Most here find SM/SD abhorrent behavior ... as do most societies, and the majority of medical practitioners.<P>Underlying this discussion though, is this thread: if the emotional need for sexual fulfillment is not being met, then the Rule of Honesty tells us that we have the obligation to discuss this with our spouse; the Rules of Protection and Care tell us that we have an obligation not to engage in conduct that is hurtful to our spouse.<P>In the case of non-mainstream sexual needs and a spouse who finds them aberrations, the spouse who is not having that need met must then make a choice: to forego those behaviors (even if they must seek treatment for it), or to end the marriage.<P>As zorweb stated: only after the marriage is terminated, is the spouse whose sexual need was not being met free to have it met elsewhere. So, differences in viewpoint on what constitutes "normal" sex aside, having that need met outside the marriage constitutes an A.<P>This site is about (a) lending support to people who find themselves in the midst of an A, either as a BS or WS; (b) exploring and expounding on Dr. Harley's tenets; (c) discussing ways to get one's marriage back on track. It strikes me that there are other forums that deal with deviant sexual needs, so in this regard I agree with Concerned1: it has run in this thread as far as it need go. Perpetuating the thread along the lines of discussing what does and does not constitute normal sexual behavior detracts from Terri's inherent problem: how to deal with a H whose need for sexual fulfillment led him away from his marriage.<P>An aside to JAL:<BR>You mistake roleplaying with the actual acts of aggression. In normal human development our brainstem acts as a filter for signals of danger and pain. It instinctively reacts in flight or fight (a sudden noise that causes you to jump). In this sense, SM (and to a lesser extent SD) are unnatural conditions where the higher brain, in seeking pleasure, has learned to override the brainstem's warnings. By overriding this automatic filtering and associating physical aggression and even pain with pleasure, you are creating an unnatural condition.<P>An aside to SEF:<BR>The Bible is a blueprint on how we are to model our lives as beings who were created in God's image. But we are not Christ: we can strive to that higher goal, and yet our nature makes us ever fall short. ("I could NEVER have an affair, my beliefs and convictions would NEVER allow me to" ... crow, foot-in-mouth and humble pie are a very indigestible meal). Your WH was not having HUMAN needs met, and thus sought fulfillment (wrongfully) elsewhere. I also take the statement "Women need love and emotion to have good sex, men just need it physically." to be grossly unfair: as a male, sex is the culmination of romance, affection, sharing our common interests (including religion) and all the other things that make two people become one. Your marriage can recover, as can your sex life ... you can draw upon MB, Dr. Harley's tenets and your faith. But a word of warning: if you hold your husband to Christ's standards, you are doomed to failure. You can both aspire to it, mankind seldom reaches it.<P>Godspeed to all,<BR>STL<p>[This message has been edited by SeenTheLight (edited May 29, 2001).]