BTDT,<P>You are right. I did not realize I was being condescending, but I was. My "whole big world" out there comment was just that. Not much fun to admit that, but I acknowledge that you are right. Yuck. OK, I think that there are people who need the existance of collective absolutes and those that do not. Those that need absolute certainty and those that do not. Religion provides collective absolutes. Society provides collective absolutes. On the far end of the spectrum of a complete lack of collective absolutes would be, I suppose, the anarchist or the sociopath. On the other end of the spectrum would be the fundamentalist moslem, christian, Jew, Taliban moslem, etc. who believes that their way is the only way and any other way is an affront to God. I think both these extremes have the ability to be equally evil (witness what's going on in the Middle East or Afghanastan right now). In the broad center lives you and me. Me somewhat towards the "no collective absolutes" direction and you towards the other. That doesn't make you or I better than each other. Yet we both, I think, feel the need to validate our position. I cope with that by trying (not always very succesfully, look at the apology I just had to make at the beginning of this post) to react to other views in a tolerant manner, understanding that we all live in the same continuum, just at different points. Others deal with this frightening difference by concluding that anyone else is just "wrong" and they are "right" because they have been exposed to the "right" faith, truth, whatever (maybe Heart's Cry would fit into this category?). It's the "unknowness" of being human that troubles us all and has troubled us from earliest times. <P>OK, to move past this exitensial (sp?) stuff to more comments on your post. What if I don't feel like I am "settling"? What if I feel fully fulfilled in my relationship? Is that fact that I am not complying by the rules more of a threat to me or more of a threat to the others who live by the rules? I personally believe the latter. What do you think? I do think that, yes, there are moral absolutes. I think that the ten commandments illustrate some of these as to the tenets of many other religions. Why? Because the religion followed the inate need for order. That's my opinion, anyway. And, by any moral absolute, what I did in terms of deception and in terms of harming another was wrong. I freely admit that. I take responsibility for it. But, now that his marriage has ended but for some human formalizing ritual, I have moved past that. It doesn't erradicate my previous wrong. Not at all. And, as I said, if I need to, I will tell my children about it and tell them that I was wrong. Very, very wrong.<P>So, thoughts? If you don't wish to continue the discourse, that's fine. When someone asks me questions, I respond. Otherwise, I don't. I guess this thread will die when people stop asking me questions.<P>JAL

Oh, I should add that the only one of the commandments I do not believe to be morally correct is the "one God" commandment. I think that there are many very moral and good people out there whose faith lies with pantheistic rather than monotheistic relgions. Mohatmas Ghandi comes to mind? He was a Jain and, as such, was pantheistic. I think he was a very good man and I really can't believe he's suffering the torments of fire and brimstone right now. So, I just wanted to clarify that "some" comment before another reader got very upset! Or maybe they still will. But, I tried!<P>JAL

Bernzini,<P>I don't know if you are still reading, but I wanted to respond. I do think that what your H did was wrong, as what I did was wrong. I don't think that there is any excuse to hurt someone as deeply as infidelity hurts them. I do know that I had no idea of how devastating the outcome would be for his W, but that is absolutely no excuse. I think there is a difference between the "horrible handicap" analogy and the topic at hand. When some suffers some terrible disease or accident and therefore cannot, absolutely cannot, care for themselves, alot of different emotions (like duty, guilt, etc.) kick in and the person stays with the partner even if sex is not possible. But, when you are dealing with two healthy partners, either of which could survive w/out the other, that factor is removed. Therefore, the partner who is dissatisfied perhaps feels more free to leave the marriage if they know they cannot be happy there. But, they should leave first and form an new relationship second. I agree with that. Now, I know there are some here who believe that you stay married no matter what, and I respect their opinion. I'm not defending this line of thought, just pointing out that this is possibly how it goes. <P>When I was growing up, my best friend's mother had muscular distrophy. She had been a very politcally active and lovely woman. Her husband cared for her. He worked very hard, extra hours most of the time, to make sure that she had the care she deserved. But, as time went on, she became more and more bitter and more and more convinced that he was out screwing around when he wasn't. She became an alchoholic. He was steadfast even as she became abusive (cursing, throwing things at him, etc.). The kids in the family couldn't have anyone over for fear of how he would react. Eventually, he did stray. This was the 60's, so while it was whispered about, he was very discreet. Eventually, she had to be put in full-time care. Again, he worked over-time to make sure she had the care she needed. She died. He married the presumed OW. I saw my friend at our HS reunion a few years ago. They are still married, nearly 20 years now. I tell you this story not to excuse him, but simply to put a human face on how these situations sometimes play out.<P>B, we are all humans, imperfect humans. Your H is not making choices for you, he is making choices for him. Unfortunatley, his choices do not coincide with your choices. At some point, you need to decide how to handle that. I wish you the best,<P>JAL<P>Zoreb,<P>No, I have never been the BS. My XH was and is not a good person. He is very, very intelligent and did a number on me psychologically in many ways, some of which I am still struggling to overcome. But, infidelity was not one of his abuses. If I'd stuck around, maybe he'd have gotten around to it! So, no, while I can emphasize as a human being, I can't emphasize as one who has been there (re: being a BS).<P>JAL

JAL,<P>I figured that you had never been in the BS position before. <P>I believe that what has so many people going here is not your sexual “orientation”. I, for one, could care less what you, or anyone else, does in privacy as long as no one is hurt. Although I get the impression from your posts that you think that everyone on this site is a Christian fundamentalist of some sort, you might want to stop and notice that most of the people who have responded to your post have not even mentioned their religious leanings or beliefs. <P>I believe that what has people going is that although you say you know you were wrong in having an affair with a married man, you express the same cavalier, patronizing attitudes as most OW/OP. You may not realize it, but you speak of your partner’s wife in a very clearly patronizing manner. We have all dealt with this attitude ad nauseum and find it very hard to take.<P>You said: “So, no, while I can [sic]emphasize (empathize) as a human being, I can't [sic] emphasize (empathize) as one who has been there (re: being a BS).”<P>[STL, ed.: emphasize, to give weight or call attention to; empathize, to feel at a deep subconscious level.]<P>I can assure you that until you have lived through this hell, there is no way to understand what the BS experiences. <P>You say that your ex was not a good person and that he was abusive man. Sounds like my ex (married 14 years). Unfortunately my ex included adultery in his abuses. As you know, my current spouse and I are working on recovering from his infidelities. So I speak from a more firsthand experience then I ever wanted. <P>There are some fundamental differences between abuse and adultery. Abuse is done out in the open. Since the abused spouse is aware of the abuse they have the choice to stay or leave. Many abused spouses stay in a marriage for some period of time. However, that is their choice. However, with adultery, the BS is denied a choice for several reasons. By the very nature of adultery it is usually kept secret for a very long time. Generally, when the BS finds out about the adultery they are thrown into a very unstable emotional state. The WS then uses this state to play head games. Not being able to decide whom they want, the WS assures both their spouse and the OM/OW that each is their REAL love. Again more deceit and manipulation. The BS does not know what is going on; indeed a lot of effort is expended by many people to keep the BS in the dark. To make matters worse, the major perpetrator of this crime is the very person in whom the BS has placed all of their trust and hopes in. This drives a person crazy -- like being in a dark room with poltergeist -- their presence can be “felt” but not seen. Since the “poltergeist” cannot be seen, the BS does not feel justified in their fears. Long after, when the BS discovers the affair, it is only find out that they have been robbed of years of their life. When a bank is robbed, we can understand that a theft has occurred. However, when years of a person’s life are robbed, most do not understand that it is grand theft. It is, purely and simply, grand theft of one’s life, hopes, dreams and trust. While many can understand short-lived affairs as an expression of something being wrong with a relationship, long-term affairs, maintained in secret, are much worse.<P>Marriage is a legal contract between two people. As in all legal contracts, each partner brings certain assets and considerations to the union. These assets are material, spiritual and emotional in nature. When one partner breaks the contract and essentially steals community assets, it is every bit as much a theft as if a business partner did this. In the business world we can sue to recover damages. In marriage however, it is much harder. And the things stolen are often much more personal – like self-worth, self-esteem, peace of mind, trust, and etc. Yet the theft is no less real and, quite honestly, far more damaging to a person’s very heart and soul. And this is not to mention the devastation it usually takes on the financial status of both partners. Believe me, if a business partner had done to me what my ex-husband did, I could have put him away for years. Instead the "Good Doctor" goes around telling everyone about how unstable, crazy, yada yada yada I am. And since he is a physician, he has a lot of credability in some circles. Grrrrrr.<P>I am trying so very hard here to portray what it is like to be a BS. I know I am doing a very inadequate job. As life is a learning experience, it is a shame that you, and all OM/OW, cannot live in their partner’s BS's skin for a few weeks. Then perhaps you could understand the anguish BS’s live with.<P>As I was writing this, a thought came to mind. I’ve been wondering for a while why you were lurking around this site. And some thoughts came to mind. Does your partner’s wife hang out here? Are you watching her? Or are you getting that feeling? Are the “poltergeists” circling in your life and you are still unable to admit to them? Just some thoughts, not sure why or where they came from.<P>Z<P><BR>[This message has been edited by zorweb (edited June 02, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by zorweb (edited June 02, 2001).]

Zorweb you have accuarately described what it is like to be a betrayed spouse. In addition to the pain that I have felt for the last two years, I feel as if those two years have been stolen from me. There is not much that can make up for it--and the fact that my husband does not express a lot of regret about anything except for getting caught makes me feel that I have been "disposed of." The effort that I put into our lives together, the love I gave him, the sacrifices I made were disposable. Someone who has not been through this kind of nightmare could not really understand what it's like until it's happening to them.

I also agree that zorweb has done an excellent job of describing what it is like to be a BS. I too felt like I was going crazy, that nothing made sense. It was like living in a parallel universe. I could say something as innocent as "It's a nice day," and my H would jump down my throat. Nothing made sense. Nothing was predictable. Cause and effect did not exist anymore. I don't think I would have believed it if I had not experienced it.<P>BTW, I am definitely one of those who believe that marriage is forever - the only exceptions being things that are serious crimes, including physical abuse. And I am an atheist.

Zoreb,<P>Thank you so much for your insightful post. I have read "After The Affair" so I had some idea of the issues you describe. But, reading a therapist describe them with a few case models for examples if far different from having a real person with whom you are corresponding describe them. I honestly do not mean to sound patronizing or condescending towards his W and I know I don't feel that way. Let me put this forth. Perhaps it's just impossible to view sympathy or compassion as being genuine when it comes from the person you view as the perepetrator of the crime (the OP). As I said, I had no idea when we began the affair that it would end up devastating his W as it did. Yes, I should have. I am not making an excuse. But, begin it we did (as did all the WS whose BS post here). It's just that ours served as the catalyst for both of us to leave marriages where we could not be happy as opposed to those WS who chose to remain in the marriage in the hope they could be happy. As to abuse, I think there are more similarities than you believe (after reading your description). In my case, on the outside we were the perfect successful surburban couple, but inside our house was chaos. The longer this dichodomy (sp?) existed, the more isolated I became. It is natural for humans (healthy ones, that is) to strive to have their insides match their outsides, that is to be integrated and to be truly known. When this ceases to happen as in the case I described, it is crazy making in the extreme. It devours your self esteem, your sense of self, your eventually ability to even emotionally connect with anyone else. And, worse yet, it begins to do the same thing to the children as they learn the "rules" of existing in the dysfunctional, abusive family. I'm not trying to compare horrible experiences here with a "who'se the worst off" mentality or asking for sympathy. I did, after all, get out and recover (mostly). I'm just pointing out that these types of scenarios, while different from infidelity, are also pretty bad. <P>No, I absolute do not think his W comes here. The way I discovered this site was this. About 2.5 years ago, she gathered up all her self help books, most of them unread, and pitched them in the trash during a confrontation with WS. He is nothing if not a frugal man, so he retrieved them and brought them over to me. I am a voracious reader. I began reading them (there were quite a few). Most were pretty much worthless pscyhobabble, but some were outstanding. I consider the Marriage Builders book to be one of the better ones. I gave it to my parter to read as well. It helped us both understand both why he was so unfulfilled in his marriage and why our relationship was so fulfilling to him. And, it made us much more aware of the importance of safeguarding each other's EN's. Anyway, about a year ago, I just idly got it off the shelf and saw mention of the website and decided to look it up. I became extremely interested in the lives here as it gave me much greater insight into our triangle and also into what his W was/is struggling with. I became much more patient with issues related to her as a result, i.e. him divulging what I previously considered private matters between he and I. I came to the conclusion that she had a right to know these things. I think that knowing these things has helped her understand that they were, in many ways, mismatched. My partner has also seen even more clearly how destructive and wrong it was for him to keep things to himself, though he didn't do it malicously (sp?) and apologized to her for it. Actually, I don't read here so much anymore as I used to. I just remembered Terri's thread very well and when I saw her name pop up I passed on my thoughts.<P>Re:the relgion thing, I was responding to BTDT's questions. I didn't mean to imply that everyone here was religious fundamentalist, though I do remain somewhat surprised at the amount of reaction to the whole D&S thing by some (not all, some).<P>Nellie,<P>Here's a scenario for you to consider. I have a cousin who was in a convent for over 20 years. When she was in her early 40's, after much introspection, she decided it was no longer her calling and left her order. She was the principal of a school and very important to her Convent. Do you think her vow was also for life? Should she have remained in the convent for life even though she had come to the realization that it was no longer a fulfilling life for her? Was her vow, taken the the same solemnity as a marriage vow, as binding in your view as a marriage vow? I'm interested to your response. Your posts are always well thought out and insightful. <P>JAL

Jal,<P>I have another question actually for your OM. If you two have this 'great' eternal thing going, then isn't it a form of mental and emotional abuse to contineu with him in a 'married' state? Yes, it is 'their' decision but it sounds like a door is left open for him to have his cake and eat it to. <P>You know, leaving one's life with strings of attachment hanging all over the place sounds dangerous. Could trip and get seriously hurt for anyone involved. Just watching from the sidelines his situation sounds 'painful'. <P>What about the saying: "If you love someone, let them go, if they come back, they are yours. If they don't....."<P>Is it really healthy to all of you involved to keep stringing people along. Is your OM really being true to anyone? Hm...... People watch, see and know and so do the children. It just amazes me how some think that if they just close their eyes to the hurt they have caused and act like 'it's ok, the rest of the world will just handle it'. <P>L.

Orchid,<P>I don't see either he or I as closing our eyes to the hurt we have caused. When I read about some of the exploits of WS on this board, I actually see how caring he tries to be. No, he's not perfect, like any WS here. Yes, he should never have had the affair. Yes, he regrets it and wishes he had left first. Yes, he has told her this. But, he has also told his W that he will not divorce unless she wants it. I don't see that as a form of abuse. She knows that the moment she asks for one, she can have it and will not suffer financially for it. He is not going to force her to make that decision before she is ready. I read many posts from BS who continue to work and pray for the restoration of the marriages even after the divorce. So, I don't think the actual legal divorce is the issue in terms of recovery. She also knows that if he wanted to end his relationship with me, I would respect his wishes fastidiously, no matter how difficult. As I said in a previous post, he sees her making progress. She has been in therapy for the 2.5 years he has been gone and apparently goes much less now. She is travelling more with friends and appears to be developing a much more active social life separate from him. Since their marriage was so empty (for him), their social life was center stage in their marriage. I frankly never knew two people who socialized so much. They even vacationed with other couples and hadn't taken a vacation, just the two of them, in several years! So, the loss of their couplehood left a gaping hole in her social life as well, which was/is extremely important to her. He I do very, very little socializing. We would hardily resent another couple's presence on a vacation! He typically takes his daughter with him to any professional functions because she is his heir apparant. And, thing brings another issue. Daughter is very close to his wife. He has also assured his daughter that he will not ask for a divorce and force the issue until she is ready to make the final break. This is comforting to his daughter. While their relationship went through some rocky times when the affair was discovered, they have recovered and are now, by both's admission, closer. He is not about ask for a divorce when he assured her he would not. She is backsliding less and less and going for longer periods without leaning on him. <P>JAL

opps<p>[This message has been edited by zorweb (edited June 02, 2001).]

I should clarify the last paragraph. I meant his relationship with his daughter (whom he also assured he would not pressure her mother for a divorce until she was ready for it) is much closer and that is W is backsliding less.<P>Oh, I should add also that she has actually asked him to go see her attorney a few times to begin proceedings. He always goes immediately and provides any information that she asks for. This is sometimes difficult as just his tax return is over 500 pages long, but he provides any documention of anything she asks for. Then, she seems to drop it for three, six, whatever months. Then another call. This has been going on for about a year and a half.<P>JAL<P>JAL

Hi JAL, thanks for your thoughts. I can't talk long, but just wanted to quickly address one question you asked me in particular. I do not mean any offense so please don't take my comments the wrong way. <P>You asked, "Is that fact that I am not complying by the rules more of a threat to me or more of a threat to the others who live by the rules? I personally believe the latter. What do you think?"<P>I think your way of believing--that you are more of a threat to others who live by the rules--is thinking more highly of yourself than you ought. For one thing, someone like you could never be a threat to someone like me because I believe when there is a problem inside of my marriage, the core of the problem forever remains within the marriage. To blame someone like you or feel threatened by someone like you who is on the outside, would be to completely misdirect my anger and fear.<P>I can only speak for myself, but someone like you is positively no threat to someone like myself who endeavors to follow God's rules--because to follow God's rules is not to follow in vain. There are rewards. A clear conscience, for one.<P>I'm not perfect, but Jesus is perfect and He lives in me because I asked Him to. Nobody who tries to live by God's rules wakes up in the morning and asks themselves how they can disappoint God or not live up to meeting their mates' emotional/physical needs. We all have needs. But for you to think of YOURSELF as a threat... Please. You need to come down to earth a little bit. That's my opinion.

BTDT,<P>I'm glad that you have such peace and comfort in your life from your religious faith. That is a good place for any of us to be, regardless of our path there. I don't want to be a threat nor do I somehow relish the role if I were. I made the point because of the strong, very strong, responses I got on this board. And, this is not just referring strictly to this board. Which you say that, traditionally, nonconformists have always been viewed as threatening? And, why is that? I would put forth that it may be because of people's need for collective absolutes, be they defined by religous faith, social structures, etc. That's all I have time for today, too! I will check back tomorrow to see if there are any more questions.<P>JAL

JAL,<P>Persons on this site, visit and post from all walks of life, religious beliefs and opinions. All are welcomed here. By subject matter you are at a site that whose primary subject is marriage. Your opinions and life choices are in a different direction. Therefore, what you are feeling as 'indifference' to your way of thinking is probably because of the site you are visiting. I am sure if I went to 'gloryb.com' my thoughts would not be as welcomed since I would not be 'conforming' to their primary line of thought. My support is more here at MB than at gloryb.<P>Is this a wrong thing? Well, you have been allowed to express your opinions here and while not all have agreed with you, you are still here posting. Some of your comments have generated thought. You are not without intelligence. Yet you state that you frown on infidelity but still do it. <P>What do you think of someone's word who says something is wrong yet does it anyway? Hm....... Do as I say but not as I do?

JAL,<P>I do not want to get into the “my hurt is worse then your hurt” game here. Just trying to communicate something that is very hard to communicate. One of the reasons I am doing this is not so much to enlighten you, as it is to work this through in my own mind. So that I can understand the orchestra of emotions playing through my mind and body. It is very much a Wagnerian piece, not at all the lighter Italian fare. <P>Your description of being in an abusive relationship is very accurate. I can relate because I lived in one for 14 years. But there was one person perpetrating the abuse…. My XH. And I knew what was going on, I knew I had the choice to leave. I CHOSE to not leave for quite some time. What is important to this discussion is not why I stayed, but that I knew what was going on and I had a choice. No matter how beat down I may have been by his abuse, there was power in the choice.<P>However, with the affairs, my XH was not the only one perpetrating the abuse. In an affair where there is secrecy involved, the WS gets the OW/OM and others to collude. So it becomes a conspiracy of many against one. Perhaps the difference between rape and gang rape??? (A harsh analogy but it comes to mind). In this conspiracy my XH (the WS) shared with strangers every intimate aspect of my life and being. They saw me through the tinted lenses he painted for them. I became, to many people, the person he painted me to be not who I am. And the central person in this conspiracy is the very one I who was supposed to love me and protect me.<P>One of the reasons I choose to be in a monogamous relationship is to avoid diseases. I had my choice in that area taken away from me. My XH choose to expose me to diseases by his high-risk sexual behavior. I had no choice in the matter.<P>{A silly aside here - To this day I do not now what his fetish is. All I know is that this man went through more condoms then the average drug store. I used to keep an inventory of them as I’d found his hiding places. The reason I kept an inventory was to chase the poltergeist away – I had to know that I was not making this up. I put tracking marks on each condom. So I knew when he bought new ones and how many he was using. And you know what, my 12 year old son told me the other day? “Hey mom, I found dad’s condom stash, boy he goes through a lot of them.” So what ever the fetish is it’s still going on. I am sure that his new fiancé is not aware of this.}<P>Who colluded with my XH in this conspiracy? His other women, at least one of which was a “friend” of mine. The doctors and staff at the hospitals and clinics he worked at. My neighbors who witnessed him bringing other women into our home when I was away. Some of the staff at the private school our son attended. His mother who acted as his personal secretary in relaying phone messages and mail for him. His cousins, who knew something, started to tell me once but then changed their story to protect HIM. Some of my friends who felt caught in the middle and did not know if they should say anything or not. So they chose the path of least resistance. Many of my “friends” choose to simply abandon me so as to not “get involved”. Of the circle of people around me, only my family and a couple of my closest friends were not let into the great secret and were not part of the great conspiracy. The rest of my world was full of those poltergeists.<P>It is only now, years later, that I can look back and see the poltergeist for what they are. Only now is the light turning on. When it comes to his affairs, my XH is not the only one who injured me. There were many people involved. I still feel “gang raped” by these people. I was robbed of those years of my life. My choice to make an informed decision about my own life and well-being was taken from me because of the secrecy. And this was done by many people, not just my XH.<P>I have not touched on the case of my current husband (CH) (WS), SeenTheLight (STL) and his affairs. He is a totally different kind of man from my XH. (LOL – boy can spawn acronyms here or what?) My CH is anything but evil. He is one of the sweetest, most loving men I have ever known. But to keep post to the size of a short story, I’m not even going to start talking about what that. He and I have written volumes about it on this web site.<P>I can only tell you that in the case of my former marriage, the affairs caused me far more damage then the abuse. I can walk away more easily from the abuse because he was the sick one. But the infidelity stole years of my life, it stole my right to make choices for myself. My XH made the choices for me and did not even respect me enough to tell me about it.<P>Why do I say that the infidelity stole years of my life but the abuse did not? Because I choose to stay even though I knew it was an abusive relationship. I did not have the choice as to whether nor not I as exposed to fatal diseases, whether nor not strangers knew details about the most intimate parts of my life, how I was presented the world, who was sleeping in my bed when I was out of town, and so on and so on.<P>Can you see the magnitude here?<P>Z<P><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Was her vow, taken the the same solemnity as a marriage vow, as binding in your view as a marriage vow?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes. Whether or not she feels fulfilled is irrelevant. The only difference between this vow and the marriage vow would be that there was no spouse to be devastated by the breaking of the vow, though I suppose that those who believe in God might have a somewhat different perspective on that. <P>

If our word means nothing, then what are we? <P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

JAL, I have sat back for the last few days and read without responding. I actually hadn't any intention of responding again, because to be quite honest, your posting here on this particular topic opened some wounds for me that had almost actually healed, and stirred some intense emotions about some things that had nearly settled for me. I cannot pretend that I am grateful for that, because I am not.<P>However, I do feel that I need to make something very clear: You will never convince me or the others on this forum that anything about the situation with you, the OM and his wife has been good or in any way right, and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with anyone's sexual orientation, preferences or with anyone's religious beliefs or lack thereof. The reason? Because what you seem to be saying again and again is "Yes, I know that we did the wrong thing, but I don't really feel all that badly about it, because his wife was in some way inadequate and I am not." And you seem to be saying that the honesty that should be paramount between two married people is great except for in cases like yours.<P>The things you are saying are the things that ALL people in affairs say. We have heard it all before, just with different justification. There is nothing different in what you are telling us about the "specialness" of your relationship with your OM than we have ever heard from the mouths, pens or keyboards of ANY OP still involved in his or her affair. I realize that you think that what the two of you share is somehow different than what other affair partners share, and in some ways it is... but the bottom line here is that a man broke his marriage vows, with you, and his wife has been given NO CHOICE in the matter of the rest of her life. You and he have decided her life for her. You keep saying how he will never divorce her unless she chooses that - but it is clear that he will never return to her no matter what she chooses - so what kind of choice is that? THAT is what we cannot accept, and that is what it SEEMS as though you are trying to explain away and justify by claiming that your OM's sexual needs were more important than the ties of his marriage.<P>I would say more, but I have read that brain damage can occur if one continually bangs one's head against a wall.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Terri,<P>You said it very well.<P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Ok I hadnt piped in and I see ya are making progress with Terris latest post,,, <BR>JAL kinda wondering why no one has touched upon your previous marriages' abuse? as far as you still have trouble with it and yet the good doctors tell you that your current sexual orientation is not any byproduct of that situation? ok so maybe you had this orientation before you were abused in your previous marriage? let me know since that is the only post of yours that has truly caught my attention.<BR>I think too that one of the major issues has been as a couple have pointed out is that you continue the infidelity since these folks are not truly divorced,, you say you have this man heart and soul and if you read the ENs of Mr Harley you would see that somehow he is giving an EN to his wife... what could that be? seems that maybe it is FAMILY COMMITMENT... wow... seems that is one for sure and then there is Financial security which you say she would have regardless... but this is keeping them from proceeding,, you have mentioned how much money this guy has and it is obviously not one of your EN... but it is hers and he fulfills that..... as far as I am concerned you are still the OW and untill he is fully committed to you in every aspect (and that included not taking care of another woman,,his wife) then you only have partially what a man and woman can have...<BR>by the way you said that your IQ was really high and you throw lots of big words out there (which you have a hard time spelling)..LOL,,, just think it is cute and funny,,, my gang at the Houston chapter of Mensa has found you amusing.<BR>Ok do not get offended JAL... just poking fun here and at almost 100 posts you know us by now <BR>Have a good weekend... by the way where is he? and are you alone?<BR>