SEF- we are now starting to reconcile 4 mo after d-day I let him move back in at the 2mo point because I wanted to believe him at the time. But that was a mistake as he was merely a lump on the couch and not 'emotionally' home.He would get very distant from me avoiding me around the house and every 2 wks or so he would get this hard look in his eyes and tell me he had no feelings for me and wanted a divorce. But I would always go pray out of the book Power of Praying Wife and ask God for discernment and clarity of his mind and conviction and repentance in his heart. Those prayers are all in that book and it helped me ALOT! I would call my Christian friends for emotional support.I felt like Dan Quayle trying to reason with him about why divorce is wrong and harmful to the kids and against God's will. I figured if I prayed my hardest and he still divorced me against my will I would have done all I could.One night I was so upset when he mentioned D again I asked God for a sign if I should know that my marriage would work out. That night H was sleeping on the couch again. Next morning he put his arms around me and cried and told me he still loved me. That was the sign I needed to hang in there. But its a long road believe me. Keep praying- at the very least it will make you stronger. I used to feel I just couldnt live on my own with 3 kids (I"ve been a SAHM and moved 5 times for H's job) but I think God wanted me to realize I CAN manage on my own if necessary and wanted me to improve my selfconfidence level which I have gradually done.My H is major mid life crisis so I know that plays a big part in this too. Take care-lifeismessy

<B>Has anyone's WS totally abandoned their family as my WH has?</B><BR>Sure. My wife left over two years ago. She has not had any contact with any of her/my family in 18 months. She last spoke with our oldest daughter 3 months ago and she has only spoken with our 10 year old one time in the last 6 months. She hasn’t seen them in two years!<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A><p>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited May 29, 2001).]

SEF, et al.<P>Two points:<P>First, I have seen both sides, as a BS and as a WS. My ex-W left to live with OM, leaving house and family behind; to the point of having little contact with the children for over 4 months. At the time there was much I did not understand (pre-MB and Dr. Harley's books). I, too was sanctimonious and holier-than-thou. I, after all, could NEVER do such a thing: my moral beliefs, my faith in God, all that I was could never lead me to that point.<P>I have now eaten my crow, foot-in-mouth and humble pie. A disagreeable meal indeed. I still do not understand my ex-W's separation from her children (though they do visit her 3 times a year now, and talk on the phone and via email); it is, perhaps, an understanding I have no desire to reach.<P>How a WS acts within their fog is unique to each WS. The depth of the fog in which we find ourselves is unique to each case as well. Some are fortunate to find their way out in time (thank God); some are lost in that limbo forever.<P>Secondly, in retrospect, I was self-righteous, I too invoked God and the Ten Commandments, bandying them about as if they were some holy avenging sword I could hang over my ex-W's head. Oh, how wrong I was.<P>God forgives. He does not forget, but He does forgive. As for prayers of sinners falling on deaf ears (do you hear your self-righteousness here) ... if that were the case, God would hear none of us. For we all have sinned, we all do sin, and we will all sin again. And our God will forgive those transgressions as well.<P>I can understand the pain, the anger, the frustration: I have felt it, too. But be wary in wielding that holier-than-thou avenging sword. It cuts both ways.<P>Godspeed and good luck,<BR>STL<p>[This message has been edited by SeenTheLight (edited May 30, 2001).]

Yes, my husband has totally withdrawn from me and our two sons. We have been married 29 years (anniversery, May 19), had the marriage everyone envied, friends called us "Ward and June Cleaver", husband is influential business man in very small town. Then in January he told me he was having an affair with a woman he met in a bar on a hunting trip. He moved into an apartment shortly after that and the only contact I have with him is an e-mail when he deposits money in my checking account. He has no contact with our 23 year old and only goes to our 16 year old's baseball games. He is coaching the 16 year old this summer. How odd is that? There is no "how are you son?" He is just his coach....He was the boys' best friend before this happened, hunting, fishing, sports and now he can't even talk to them. Something else that's really strange, he never talks about the OW even though we all know she's been in town and that she's quit her job. They were even seen looking at a house here in town. Small town's are great for gossip, how can he think no one knows what he's doing? He's gone around telling people "He's so happy! A great burden's been lifted from his shoulders!" What a guy! <P>And the really strange thing is I still love him and plan on standing fast. I was graced with Salvation in January, lost 55 pounds since Jan. and everyone tells me I look terrific. I can honestly say I am in a much better place than before this all happened. Miracles do happen! I have no idea if the man I once knew will come back, but then again I am not the woman he once knew...So it is in God's hands and I trust the Lord with all my heart! Hang in there!

I'm unfortunately a member of this group as well. (The WS abandoning family).<P>At first, during the most bizaar behavior my H exhibited, he said he was never close to his family, or our kids etc.etc. In fact, he said "they have their little lives, I have mine".... Went along with the other grandiose behavior.<P>Many things have changed in the past 17 months of going through this. He has reached out to our kids and his family. But I am still the scapegoat. It is very difficult to detach or deflect the projections I have to say. I liken it to a bully on a playground though. I tell myself the same things I would tell my kids. "they pick on you because they can". So, I just try to stay out of my H's war. Try to stick with the facts, and not get into the emotional bullying.<P>The pride---low self esteem thing does seem to go together. I think, (but don't really know) that when someone has self esteem problems, it is easier to make yourself feel better by thinking much higher of yourself, and making others (particurlarly the ones you CAN hurt) feel small. Pride is something to hide in.<P>And whoever said that pride can get to us as well, is right. It can cloud our views as well. At least I know it did me. I did want to prove I was right. I spent a lot of time defending myself and wagging my finger negatively at my H. Human nature!! <P>It didn't work at all....very humbling experience.<P>It is true we can learn more about ourselves through this process, than we can ever learn or understand about their behavior!<P>The OP seems to have thier issues as well. I also live in a small town and my H and OP seem to think they live in a bubble too, that no one sees into. <P>The OW in my case is my H's assistant. She was married, has two kids..H didn't work (he was home taking care of things so she could work) !! She became the damsel in distress helping my depressed H. Much of what he said and continues to say sounds like things I have heard her say.<P>My H and the OW have a son together, so the situation is incredibly complicated. It was a good move on her part, when my H was attempting to come home in the beginning. She was very worried she would lose him. NOw she has him!! He is trapped again. <P>I also find the behavior amazing at times. I try very hard to put myself in the OW"s place. She knows his mom is devastated regarding all of this...but she hangs on, pushing herself in, no matter what anyone thinks.....just like she manipulated the situation with my H.<P>Too bad, I didn't know more about relationships before coming here. I should have seen the signs. Actually I did see through her transparent behavior, just didn't understand the impact it could have on my H...spending 10 hours a day in close contact with her and only about 2 hours a day here.... I listened to his stories of her lousy marraige from him and commiserated. I listened to him tell me that she handled all the conflict at work and deflected it from him, that she came in after her kids were vomitting all night to do his charting. I listened to her tell me how her previous boss's wife was jealous of her when she was young and skinny, I listened to her tell me how she was the only one who could deal with these men at work, I rolled my eyes when she called herself the office wife.<P>What an idiot I was.<P>She took the office wife thing alittle too far. I guess she finally got to prove how important she actually is!!!<P>I guess I have to work on my forgiveness of her huh!!!!<P>Believe it or not, I actually feel sorrier for them than I do for me....but I feel the sorriest for my kids...

Thanks to all you who have responded. WOW, after reading all the responses, I don't know if I feel better or not. It is really sad to see how many lives have been torn apart by one bad choice only one person made. I am sorry if I came across as Holier than thou, I am not. I too am a sinner and don't deserve anything, everything I have is from God and I am grateful for it but my husband turned his back on that Awesome God, and that by far is the most painful thing to understand. I do want him to get restored to the Lord more than anything, because that is what this whole process is all about, his relationship with Jesus Christ. All of our journey's here on earth are for one purpose, to glorify Jesus. I know that I sin every day, but I am trying, especially through this fire, to be more aware of what Jesus is teaching me and trying to do his will<BR>more every day. I know that I am not in control, but God is. Please know that God loves all us and does not want any of us to perish, so we do need to pray for the WS, OW and all the kids and ourselves. God is Good!

I just got off the phone with my divorce lawyer and said to him that my husband has only called his kids once every 5 days or so and I ask if this was normal. He said, yes it is, it happens everyday with his clients. He told me not to worry about full custody for my kids with the response that my WH has toward them. It is trully sad what we have come to in this society and how sorry my WH will be later when he doesn't have any relationship with his boys. I can't imagine that he won't be close to his grandkids, my WH loved kids! Satan has destroyed what once was good. I think in every marriage ceremony where they say, Let man not put us assunder, that it should also have Satan in there too. He is the blame for all of this! Just venting again, thanks for responding!

SeenTheLight:<P> RE: God forgives. He does not forget, but He does forgive. As for prayers of sinners falling on deaf ears (do you hear your self-righteousness here) ... if that were the case, God would hear none of us. For we all have sinned, we all do sin, and we will all sin again. And our God will forgive those transgressions as well.<P>I'm not trying to be self-righteous, I will be the first to admit I've made many mistakes and yes sinned, God knows. So I agree with you there.<P>These are my questions to you:<BR>Does God forgive adultery when the person/persons are still continuing to live together in adultery? <BR>Does God forgive lies, deceit and betrayal while the person/persons are still in the middle of and continue to do so? <BR>Does God answer prayers when the will of person/persons are to do whatever they want with a total disregard for others?<P>To repent and ask forgiveness for sins is one thing, but to ask forgiveness while steadily committing the sin ...I don't think so.<P> This was the point I was trying to make, sorry if this was construed as self-righteous. I certainly didn't intend to appear that way. It's not up to me to judge.<P>

What I believe is that Yes, God forgives every sin, but the key is repentence and admission of sin. I couldn't understand why my husband couldn't and hadn't repent after I caught him in the A., but it became clear after I caught him at her apt. He couldn't repent because he was still sinning in adultry. You can not get fellowship with God as long as sin is in the way, God can not look on sin, and so therefore forgiveness can not be rendered until true repentence comes. I have not seen that in my WH, neither has any of the church elders and so therefore he is not forgiven and not wiped clean of his sin. You can't repent while you are continuing to sin, it is that simple.

SEF, HW, et al:<P>God, as our Father, is like any father: he feels the pain when we transgress and continue our transgressions; yet His love remains undiminished. So does He forgive? My faith (Byzantine Catholic) has taught me to say yes. Yet, God granted us free will. We can turn our back on Him, if we choose. No matter how long we are away, though, His hand is still there ... we exercise our free will by willing reaching out to Him. It is a measure of the depths to which love can extend that no matter what our transgressions, that hand is still extended when we "come out of our fog".<P>I meant no self-righteous finger-pointing of anyone: I was just pointing out the dangers in falling into that trap. It is an easy one to fall into (having taken that plunge myself). Morally I have no right to judge others (funny how we can know that and still fall prey to it).<P>God does not distinguish between sins: the least and the great are still sins: whether the sin is one of pride or adultery, they are equally sins. And yes, God forgives, even as we transgress and continue to transgress. As a father, I can imagine it causes Him pain: do not the sins of our children cause us pain, even as we forgive and love them? The difference, I have been taught, is that His is pure: there are no "conditions" imposed. He can love the sinner and despise the sin; we, as humans, however, fall far short of this ideal form of love.<P>God's hand is a patient one; he hears our prayers, even as we sin. He answers those prayers daily. But the answers are HIS answers, supplying our NEEDS; they usually are not the answers to our WANTS. And because our WANTS are not met, we think that God does not hear nor answer us. If you feel that God is not answering your prayers, take a moment to step back: are we praying for a WANT or are we praying for a NEED? When we step back and calm our spirit and mind, it is then that we can see our prayers answered.<P>As far as God answering prayers even as we continue to sin: Yes He does. But caught in the fog of our transgression we are even more apt to miss the answer. So we ask forgiveness even as we sin, as humans are wont to do: He hears them, answers them. In the fog of our sin (adultery, for instance), we are apt to miss the answer: the fog blinds us to more than emotion and the reality of the world around us, it blinds us spiritually as well.<P>From personal experience, I have reached out in various fogs in my life, and in every instance His hand was there to comfort me and lift me up. It has to be a deliberate attempt, else we grope blindly. Did my transgressions cease? No, I continue to this day. But the hand is there, and the knowledge of it lifts me in my darkest hours. There has been no instance, whatever my sin, that God withdrew His hand.<P>As humans, we fall short of that perfect expression of love and forgiveness. We can extend a hand past pain, we can find the means to forgive, but as with all human endeavors, they have human-imposed limits. We are cast in God's image and likeness, after all; but like any mirror image, distortions exist ... as reflections, we are not perfectly cast. In the history of humanity, only Christ manifested the fullness of our potential.<P>Godspeed and good luck to all of you,<BR>STL

SEF:<P>Thank you SEF, that's what I was trying to tell my H. <P>They way he had come across to me it seems he thinks he has done nothing wrong. Therefore, doesn't feel a need to repent. H won't talk to me, and hasn't for some time now. Not that he was straight with me anyway. So as I sit in limbo, I have no idea what is going on.<P>Take care and May God Bless<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Hurtwife (edited May 30, 2001).]

Dear Hurt: My WH won't talk or see me either, but like my friends keep telling me, he loves his sin more than me or the kids, or his marriage and most of all God. But don't you forget, GOD IS STILL ON THE THRONE LAST TIME I CHECKED, so he will deal with my WH sin and your WH sin his own way since they won't give it up themselves. I guess we can compare them to the Israelites, God will probably keep them wondering around the the "FOG" land forever, until they repent. I am just glad that I am on this side of God and not where they are. I have to tell myself everyday, I am not in control of anything, God is. I have now released my WH to God, he can and will deal with him. Have faith, it is trully all we have in this life! Nothing else matters!<BR>SEF

A final comment on God and WS's:<P>God does not keep us in the fog; that is something we are perfectly capable of accomplishing on our own. In the Old Testament we saw God directly judging mankind; but we have had our immortal redemption through Jesus Christ.<P>The question remains: how far is your reflection removed from the perfection of Christ's love? Will your hand be there when the fog lifts? Will the love be there? Will the forgiveness be there?<P>Tough questions, I know: for we are human, and in all things human there are finite limits. Tempus vidi. Literally, time sees ... but loosely, time will tell. We must all recognize our human fallibility and still be able to strive toward the ideal, for ultimately it is the yardstick by which we will be measured.<P>God does not expect us to sit on the sidelines chanting "Go, God, go!" We have the means, with His strength and example, to go out and participate in the miracles that God creates daily: to rise above our human condition and achieve something higher. Do not be surprised if the answer to your prayer is God handing you the ball and whispering in your ear: "Run with it, kid, I am blocking for you." We can plunge blindly, head-down for a yard, or we can score with our heads up. Free will, remember?<P>Godspeed and good luck,<BR>STL<p>[This message has been edited by SeenTheLight (edited May 30, 2001).]

SEF:<P> RE: It is trully sad what we have come to in this society and how sorry my WH will be later when he doesn't have any relationship with his boys. <P>My ex from 1st marriage never had anything to do with our son. My son was 3 yrs old when we separated. Never a phone call, no cards, no child support, absolutely nothing. My son didn't even see his father again until was 18. It didn't go over too well. His father even got into a physical fight with him. Seems he tried to tell my son what he was going to do or not do, trying to come on as Dad too late. Of course my son resented this and asked his father who he thought he was. His father told him I'm your father and you will listen to me. My son told him biologically speaking only and he was right. <P>Anyway my son later started writing his father. Even though he didn't get any response for a long time. One time when my son said he was going to write again, I asked him if he had heard anything from his father. My son said NO, but I feel it's the thing to do. I didn't say a word, but thought to myself I was proud of him, he's a better man than I would be. (I'm not a man, but you get my drift). <P>I think your right that sooner or later your WH will be sorry about the lack of relationship with his boys. Years later and still my son's father has expressed deep regrets<BR>because he was never there and missed his son growing up. This was his choice and he will have to live with it. They communicate long distance now. His father says he feels extremely guilt and realizes the damage he caused, he says it never stops eating away at him. It did come back to haunt him. <P>It's sad the children have to suffer. Sometimes I feel that because of the way his father was, during the time my son was growing up, maybe it was better my son wasn't exposed to that. Maybe it was God's way of protecting my son. <P>God Bless you and your boys<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Hurtwife (edited May 30, 2001).]

SEF:<P> RE: GOD IS STILL ON THE THRONE LAST TIME I CHECKED, so he will deal with my WH sin and your WH sin his own way since they won't give it up themselves.<P>RIGHT ON! <P>It's in God's hands. I've seen what I believe is God's work in H's life and OW's, there is no other explaination for the odd things that have happened to both of them. <P> RE: I have now released my WH to God, he can and will deal with him.<P>As have I, God can deal with it a whole lot easier than I can. Thank God. <P>Thanks SEF and May God Bless you <BR>

I am back, can't believe it, now I wonder if my STBXWH has been reading these posts or my mind. He called the boys today and asked to take them to dinner. Funny, he called them today as it is our 19th Wedding Anniversery (Ha Ha-Happy Anniv!!)Also our oldest son is leaving this coming Mon for boot camp for Army Nat Guard and he said that it would be the last time to see him before he leaves. Get real, this is only Wed, he has 5 more days and he can't even see him. He will be gone until Aug 24. I can't believe him. I was cleaning out my Christian tape collection and ran accross some of his "Gospel" tapes and sent them back to him tonight as a anniversery present. Lord knows he needs them. Just a vent, still totally upset about his lack of concern for me and the kids and just the fact that he could care less about anything that goes on here. Boy, oh Boy, this sure isn't my husband that I married l9 years ago today! He died in the arms of the OW!!

SEF:<P>He isn't dead. He is lost in the fog. Really lost, since he has almost severed relations with the kids, too.<P>God watches all his flock. Plan B, then see what develops.<P>Godspeed and good luck,<BR>STL

my h left me and my baby for 8 months, to go live life and be merry with the ow.he paid child support 5 times and i had to use what little resourses i had to support our son. i am disabled so i got ssi, no disability as i don't have enough work credits. it was like he turned into another person.i didn't know this man anymore.to this day my trust account is 0.i just don't trust him to do the right thing.we go to counseling on the 6th, i hope it goes well.

Gina- With God anything is possible. He knows what will happen as he had all this planned out. Just pray and you be obedient to God and all will work out great for you. Remember, this is about his sin and his choices not you and yours. Keep your chin up, God loves you and will provide for you and your son. I will pray for you too. SEF