belld,<P>I don't intend to continue to post here. My situation was more directed at painforever, as I felt my story may give him a different view. Not hating [H] does not mean I want contact with him, or to interfere with the progress of him and his wife. Or to interfere with what he's doing here. But if I posted my story veiled as a party not involved, that would be yet another lie. I couldn't do that.<P>It's odd, when the A fizzles it becomes a bad memory and I'm able to take a third-party view now. I didn't and would never address [H] specifically.<P>So, your concerns are duley noted. If I'm addressed by someone needing help, I'll post elsewhere.

[H]ow, your response was as helpful as [H]'s, to me anyway. I'm BS and both your stories ring so true. I'm so glad that both of you found your way home to your spouses. <P>I had an A about 25 years ago, not married to either, but living with one. I know how the feeling when you're together can become like a drug. I knew I didn't want to marry either man, but couldn't leave either. I never understood those relationships until I came here. I just knew I'd never let myself get in a situation like that again. <P>I have always loved my H, although his excuse for his A was that I never loved him as much as that former OM I mentioned. He believed this because he read my journal about this man. I was desperately in love with OM, at the time, and remembered that feeling when H and I were having problems. <P>I believe H still loves me too although he is living with OW. They also became friends by discussing each others' marital problems. It actually began with H talking to her about his fears while I was being treated for breast cancer. I don't know if there is still hope for us. H is abusing drugs and alcohol along with OW and I've had to get a restraining order and file for divorce to protect our jointly owned business.<P>I have copied all [H]'s posts and I will include your posts as well. Someday I'd like to show them to my H and maybe he can share them with OW, who is also married.

I'll respond to Bell.<P>I'm dead set on a lot of things right now that help me with my own marriage. Such as no contact with (OW). Fact is I have been placing a lot of blame on her for manipulation.<P>A point I thought about making last night. I wanted to say, it's not fair of me to blame this or that person. I need to stop blaming all together. If there is fault in the situation its my own, and my own mistakes I am unhappy about. I realized that. My (W) realized that, and (OW) realizes that. I'm sure (OWH) realizes that also. Everyone made mistakes, everyone continued making mistakes. <P>In the beginning it helped me to have (OW) to blame for manipulation. However I too did some manipulation, as I too thought it was the right thing to do at the time. This was and as I said "FOG" is a very difficult thing to get out of.<P>Now I need to work on my marriage. There is hope, and there is life after an (A).<P>I will continue to share what I believe to be my side of things. I am commited to no contact, and yes it did bother me (OW) showed up here in my thread, and posted some things. Because I asked simply (Don't contact me) I understand theres two sides to every coin. I understand that no one person (OW) or (OM) was to blame, no one was more evil in the situation. It does help some people out there to break away from things by hating (OW) or (OM). As time goes on, and things settle. I don't hate anyone, I just wish I hadn't continued the mistake as long as I did. I hadn't wished I kept making mistakes. I wished I had those 4 months back of working on my own marriage, and I wished I could have been honest with my wife and communicated better.<P>I encourage everyone to share thier stories, even if it means me avoiding a thread, or not posting to a thread because it's "Someones else's story". I don't want to believe marriage builders is a first come first serve site. Meaning I was here first, so now (OW) has to find a new site to get help from in her own marriage. If she's truely wants to work things out with her husband, then by all means she should be given the same opportunity that I am. I am in her case the (OM) as she in my case is the (OW) I will respect her own needs of no contact. I.e. Avoiding threads, not posting directly to her, and so on. So in answer to your question Bell. I say, let her get the help she needs for her own marriage through MB, this is the same help I am getting, and everyone deserves a chance. I just hope she will in the future avoid posting in my threads. As this brings unneeded and unwanted contact between us.<P>------------------<BR>H.<P>My advice is my advice. Take the good, disgard the bad. Do whats right for you. Not because I said it worked for me.<p>[This message has been edited by [H] (edited June 13, 2001).]

Thanks for your words of hope. Sometimes I want to take leaps and need to remember to take one day at a time. I'm 3 months in Plan A, WW moved out last week, is still seeing OM, but has agreed to complete EN and LB questionnaires. A call for us with Steve H. is scheduled at the end of June. Please pray for us. Any other suggestions for us BSs'?

[H],<P>Thank you for responding. When I first saw XOW's post, I suddenly felt very protective of your marriage and your ability to post on MB unhindered. I must admit - I had to question XOW's motives in coming to a site on which you post, and I still do to a certain degree. I am not sure if this is an attempt at contact or "keeping tabs" on you or what ... I hope my suspicions are unfounded; however, I know that if, hypothetically, if I were in her position, I would *not* be posting at the same healing site as my ex-lover, if I did not have some kind of agenda. <P>It's sort of like my H's XOW "accidentally showing up" at functions he went to with his friends, e.g. happy hours, etc. OOOPS! (Oops?) Maybe so, maybe not. I hate to be a pessimist, but when it comes to XOW(s) in general, I err on the side of, "Yup, there's an agenda behind this." As a woman, I understand how other women with an agenda think; we become very meticulous, deviously sincere in our mechanisms. Very little we do or say, or what we project as our "reality" really reflects the truth of what we are actually thinking. <P>This is for women with an agenda, remember. Sometimes I truly understand why misogynists exist. Women are much like feral cats - loving and protective of our own, but downright viscious to those outside of our inner sanctum. We are not the noble gender that we appear to be. <P>Hope you understand my defensiveness. I'm just trying to protect you and your recovery work.<P>belld

Belldandy,<P>Thank you for being protective of my husband and our recovery. I do appreciate it. Your defensiveness is not unfounded. (((((((BELLDANDY))))))<P>All others - I am [H]'s wife. I used to post under LostNco/DSN until an unwanted person appeared on to this site. Quite a few of you may not have been around when that occured.<P>Thank you all for your well wishes in our recovery. Also to the ladies and gentlemen who have told [H] that I am a blessed/lucky woman, you are absolutely right.<P>I am blessed in so many ways.<P>Thank you all for your support, thoughts, prayers, hugs and well wishes.<P>[H], I love you with all my heart, mind, body and soul. Here's to you baby. <P>K/LostNco/DSN<P>

H<BR> It is so good to hear from someone with a restored marriage. I am recently divorced but believe the Lord can restore it. And I pray for that. My husband and I are still friends and currently share a house until I find one I can afford and he does want to look at it first to be sure I will be okay. How do you feel my chances are at a restored marriage? My 18th anniversary will be next month. I don't ask my hubby anything concerning what he does, I just try to show him unconditional love. If there is someone else I am not aware of it yet. He is home every evening and most weekends.

Bell, Thank you. <BR>I too have thought about those same things. Which I will address in this latest post.<BR>===========================================<P>I also knew this day was coming as well, as I knew (OW) would be reading this site, or post a few things. I however wasn't prepared for a post in my own thread. So this leaves me a bit bitter as it shows a lack of respect for my no contact email. However that aside, I'd like to say I understand, and I can be an adult about it. In the future I just hope I don't have to deal with this again is all. Which includes responses directly to my threads, or directly to me.<P>I first found out during my affair that my wife had been posting on this site. She was very careful and it took me some time of digging, and took me some time of logging outgoing connections on my router, to figure out exactly what site she was visiting, and who she was posting as. This was in the beginning of my (A).<P>At first I didn’t really think much of it. I however noticed after reading and searching some very large posts about our marriage. Some very detailed things. This was my chance to know what she knew, and to see what she was thinking, or wondering. <P>I personally never posted on this site before, because I was afraid. I am the one who had the (A) and its very scary to post on a site with what seems to be 95% (BS) and 5% (WS) it can be a little intimidating. As you expect to be food for the angry, upset, and hurt people. So originally I posted some things as (Aeon Blue) some of you responded to me. Some of you caught my original post, of how upset I was with my wife, and over time of thinking and being in the situation I would post very cryptic messages. My posts that seemed to convey the sadness of my situation. This was my intention. <P>(OW) found out I was posting these things, and assumed I was just trying to get people to feel sorry for me. I wasn’t trying to get anyone to feel sorry for me, I was asking for help in my own way. I was saying, I am depressed about my marriage. I am depressed about a lot of hurtful things I’ve said. So (OW) snaps at me, and we have an argument or two, in which I erase all my posts as (Aeon Blue). I erase all the things I said, and spoke about. To make her feel better that I wasn’t trying to manipulate a whole crowd of people. I posted a message saying my intentions were less then admirable. <P>My intentions on this site we’re, are, and always have been admirable. I came here in the beginning to understand my wife, to know what she was thinking, and to get some help for some of the feelings I was dealing with. My alter ego so to speak (Aeon Blue) came out, which is a much (darker) writer in me, a much more cryptic person. <P>So I ended up posting things that seemed to be suicidal at times. I was genuinely depressed about a lot of things, I had thought about ending it all, I had thought about visiting god much earlier then he intended. I didn’t know what to do. So I wrote. My outlet for some feelings I was dealing with was this site. It helped to know some many people cared about me. It helped to know there were good things to look forward to.<BR>I thank everyone who reached out to me as Aeon Blue. Your posts and your words meant a lot to me. I got passed those rough times of depression.<BR> <BR>As much as I tried to respect my wife’s privacy here. As much as I tried to avoid diving in to her personal thoughts on here. I wanted so much to know what she was thinking. I would come here and look at things she wrote.<P>So I knew this thread, or posting would catch the attention of (OW) and given how she's not respected my (no contact) in the past, I also knew she'd post her side of things.<P>I'm not looking to pick a fight, and I'm not looking to argue about this or that, but I keep seeing her not respect my (No Contact) request. With tons of emails from her, phone calls, and recently all of that has stopped. <P>The emails stopped because I blocked (OW) at my providers end from sending me emails. The phone calls stopped because I kept hanging up on her, or dodging her calls with my answering machine. <P>I just hope this isn't another attempt at getting to me. That (OW) is really here to get help with her own marriage. So I am a little worried that (OW's) intentions here are dishonorable. I guess we will see. None the less, I will continue posting here. I have nothing to hide from anyone.<P>------------------<BR>H. / Aeon Blue<P>My advice is my advice. Take the good, disgard the bad. Do whats right for you. Not because I said it worked for me.<p>[This message has been edited by [H] (edited June 13, 2001).]

I am the (bs) in my relationship and have changed many ways for myself and for the better of my marriage. Me and my wife have only been separated for only a little over a month but I find strength... GREAT STRENGTH in knowing that anything is possible and if you don't give up!! Me and my wife talk about once a week maybe more some weeks but once a week in general and I will have to say that this has been an enormous learning experience for me as to how a husband should be and the reponsibility it takes and I know now that this marriage is something I will never giveup on because I know my wife feels the same but is in a fog and I want to be there whenever and however I can.She is awesome!!<BR>H you are awesome as well your inside view has opened my mind to all possibilities and given me hope beyond hope!!!!<BR>and to H's wife I must say that I want to know how you did it!!!!!!!! I admire you greatly!!! I know I will do the same but it is just so hard and difficult to not break down<BR>but I know I love her and that's that!!! I truly beleive we will be back together. Thank you for every incentive to keep going!!! and never giveup on the person you love!!!<BR>because that is what love is about!!!!!!!

Can I just say this thread gets better and better. I got chills reading [H]'s last reply. <P>My H absolutely freaked when he looked over my shoulder and saw some of what I was posting. "How could I share this with absolute strangers all over the world?"<P>Where else am I supposed to go? Our friends whom I want to still love him? His family who still loves him? All are sad and disappointed. H said I have all the support. Friends and family are all praying for me....how I wish I had said, "No, they are praying for US."<P>This is truly inspiring stuff.<P>Thank you knewjie and [H] for sharing.<P>Cali

Knewjie,<P>I remember you as DSN. I'm glad you're still here. I've been bopping in and out, whenever I have the time. It's good to see some old monikers. I was "away" from the board at the time of the unwanted person, so I'm not apprised of this situation.<P>However, it seems like my hackles went up for a reason. <P>I look forward to hearing what marriage coaching is like!<P>belld

I*miss*her*much<P>I have no clue how my wife was able to have that much strength through it all. I have no idea how hard it must have been for her to sit and wait it out. She has a lot of patience, understand, and love for me. I just had not realized how much she had for me. Good things, can and do often come from waiting, and being patient. I certainly don't have all the answers, and I never will have all the answers to say. Well try this "It's guarnteed to work" everyone is diffrent and every circumstance differs.<P>However much of our situations and circumstances are very much the same. Subtle diffrences here and there, but as I read theres a lot in common. As i read other peoples stories on this site, I find that I am saying. Oh I did that to my wife, I said that to my wife, I did this and that as well, and I want so much to say. Things will work out great, because I was there, and I did that as well. <P>Keep optomistic, be patient, loving, understanding. Everyone has equal chances of getting back to a love they once started, getting back to a solid marriage and foundation of trust, communication, and love.<P>I know many of you have helped my wife in her time of need. Many of you had said Be strong, be patient, be supportive. You just have to believe in yourself I guess, and believe in your marriage. Both sides have to want this.<P>For me at times I saw how my wife carried on, how she was taking care of herself, and our finances, our home, our cats, and our lives as best as she could. I also saw a very strong, supportive, and loving individual whom I was hurting at every turn. At times I didn't know how she could keep going, how she carried on the way she did. I asked myself, where is all this strength coming from. Why can she be so damned optomistic for us, when i've given her no reason to be. I've told her time and time again, stop caring for me, stop caring for our marriage. I told her we marriage to early, or to young. I told her to sell her ring. I told her a lot of things. Through it all, she continued to believe in us, continued to believe I would return to her. Continued to pray for me "First" mind you. In every prayer of hers, I was the first person she prayed for. Talk about humble, loving, and caring. <P>I noticed a lot of things at the time of my (A) I didn't want to notice. These things have a way of seeping in. So I started to recognize and think about all of these things. I then started second guessing everyone. Not just my wife. Second guessing myself as well. Maybe what I am doing isn't right. Started saying things like "I dont know what I want, I don't know who I want, I don't know where I will be in 3 months, I don't know what I am doing".<P>Very few times do I remember her coming unglued at me. Very few times do I remember her not just loving me, in spite of what I was doing to her. In spite of my continued (A) These little things do add up. They added up for me. I noticed she was always willing to talk with me. I noticed she didn't get upset when she was asking me questions, or I was telling her things I didn't think she would want to know.<P>It's tough, but I figure if I can get through it, anyone can.<P><P>------------------<BR>[H] / Aeon Blue<P>My advice is my advice. Take the good, disgard the bad. Do whats right for you. Not because I said it worked for me.

To: [H]'s OW<P>You sound familar, did you previously post as 'undertow'? I responded to such a poster a while back who talked about her H not wanting children on the d/d board. Let's see, your H was about to divorce you? Hm.....<P>At a first glance your post looks sincere. You sound like you want to recover. But let's really take a look at you. You are the OW. You stated that you love your H. Hm.... What a way to show that love? Do you always show such love by luring other men to your home? <P>The M.O (method of operation) of many manipulative OWs are to beat up the W's reputation. Did you do that? Did you also do that about your H to the OM? So that you both look good? OM did that to his W. Did you chase after the OM after OM left saying that OM was your true love and tell your H the same thing within the same period of time? Days, hours, week? Hm...... Did you call and get angry that OM was going back to his W without getting your permission or give you the opportunity to talk him out of it? Were you persistent in your calls like calling many times and sending numerous e-mails?<P>If any of this matches what you did, you are not alone. It just shows what kind of person you are vs. what you are portraying. You do not know me. I am the BS dealing with an OW similar to yourself but much worse, that is why I can see some similarities. <P>If there is any true remorse on your part and you truly want to rebuild your marriage, you will need to come clean with your H and not lie to him at all. You & your H also need to get to a good marriage counselor. You may think you don't need God but you definitely need help. <P>As far as entertaining ideas to break up other lives again, I hope you have learned a valuable lesson. I hope your attitude is good and strong enough to know that you can learn from this bad experience and move forward. If you are too offended or insulted, then I pity you. <P>L.<BR>

Morriggs,<P>Hmm I don't know about your situation really. All I can say is that one of the reasons I finally came home was because my wife showed an overwhelming desire to make things work with us. She was very optomistic, and loving through everything. That helped me tremendously to know, that I hadn't burned my bridge with her. In spite of every harmful thing I had said to her, and everything I did. It was a warm, welcome, and inviting feeling.<P>It wasn't an "In my face" type of pressure. It was more so, I am here for you, here for us. I am still your friend, I am still the person you can share every thought with. I think if it had been constant pressure, that would have pushed me away. She let me come to her to talk. She other wise made very few attempts to contact me. But when I did contact her, she was loving and supportive. So all of these things meant the difference to me. Everytime I spoke with her, she was loving and supportive of me. She wanted what was best for me. When I would hang up on the phone with her. Those things would sit on my mind. Everytime I spoke with her, it seemed to be positive, good, and she was loving.<P>Just some thoughts..<P><P>------------------<BR>[H] / Aeon Blue<P>My advice is my advice. Take the good, disgard the bad. Do whats right for you. Not because I said it worked for me.

(H)<P><BR>did your wife ever tell ou that she would never give up on you and that she believes in you, and that she will always be there for you? I want to tell my wife these things so bad should I???? any suggestions?

[H],<P>I sincerely doubt that you were as cruel to your W as my H was to me. I don't see how that is possible. I've read many stories, but I've found in each of them that the H involved is at least being somewhat civil and amicable, even during the EMR. My H was not. As I posted on another thread, I don't ever think that he will see XOW for what she really is, because to him, that is permissible behavior. He grew up with it in his childhood.<P>[H] and k:<P>I do try to have hope. I try to have patience. I keep reading and learning and praying to God to give me patience. I pray that God will touch my H's heart and open his eyes to the truth. But the more time wears on me, the more I see my H for who he really is, and not the person I thought he was, or the person I "projected" onto. The man he is now? Had I been able to look past his skin and see that he was capable of *defending!!!!* a serial XOW like ours was, there is no way I would have ever felt deep affection for him.<P>I do not have any hope that he will ever think of XOW as anything but all that and a lump of mashed potatoes with creamed gravy, despite all of the evil she inflicted on me and our marriage. I don't have any faith that he will ever see me as evil incarnate, the person who makes his life miserable. You see, my H thinks that I am to blame for his actions. If only I had done this or hadn't done that or stood on my head and blew bubbles... then he would have behaved differently. I don't think I will ever hear my H say, "Yes, I lied to you and I was unfaithful. I made that choice alone. Nothing you did made me do it."<P>I don't think I'll ever hear that. <P>:')<P><BR>belldandy<P><BR>P.S. I hope painforever is reading this thread. Possibly he will be enlightened as to what's *really* going on beneath the surface. Possibly not. He might be like my H, and he actually might value the OW more than his faithful W.

[H] I have to thank you. In your posts here, I've gained more insight into the WS than I have in 10 months of trying to communicate with my WS in Plan A. Thank you for your honesty and self-revelation. That must have been hard to do.<P>Especially, thank you for helping me to see that my W's unwillingness to communicate and her anger at me might have a more wholesome cause than just self-justification. She very well could be scared. Scared deep down, and afraid that I will hurt her or disappoint her like I have in the past.<P>Thank you for helping me see that.<P>I do have a question for you. I discovered my W's A by discovering a bunch of emails between she and the OM. In those emails he came off as a very manipulative kind of person. He was always telling her how to think and what to feel, and she seemed to eat it up. Can you relate to that? And additionally, my W told her sister that she (my wife) had actually initiated the A. Do you think this makes any difference in the WS outlook on the whole thing?<P>Thanks again.<P>Ishmael.<P>PS - I'm sure looking forward to your post about what those other to friends said to you that helped you "come out of the fog." God Bless.

Well I'll go ahead and respond to Orchid's post.<P>Yes this is Undertow. She did originally post on the d/d board. At around the same time I was posting as Aeon Blue. She did lie in the post as well, and lied to (OWH) telling him no (PA) happened. <P>I also lied to my wife, on (OW's) behalf as well, in helping protect (OW). This was after (OW) told me. "This is the story I am telling my husband that we never had a (PA), and that we've only met a few times, and so on." So in order for the story to stick I had to lie. So I called my wife and tried to reverse some things, she thought she was crazy at first. She's smarter then that. Realized it was yet another lie.<P>So i'm not proud of protecting (OW), and i'm disgusted with how many lies I told my wife during the (A). I will not however lie about anything for anyone anymore. I wont be lying to protect anyone. <P>The only person I am protecting in any of this is possible retribution from (OW) against my wife. Having said that. I'm not going to contact (OWH) or tell him the full story. This is because of two reasons. I am not out to hinder (OWH) and (OW's) own marriage progress. Also this is a personal promise I made to (OW) I told her, no matter what happens. I promise to myself, and to you I wont be contacting your husband with the full story. I stand on my integrity.<P>------------------<BR>[H] / Aeon Blue<P>My advice is my advice. Take the good, disgard the bad. Do whats right for you. Not because I said it worked for me.

Knewjie & [H],<P>God, grant me the serenity,<BR>to accept the things I cannot change,<BR>the courage to change the things I can,<BR>and the wisdom to know the difference.<P>I see serenity, acceptance, courage, and wisdom in both of you...<BR>And I see the love between you as a palpable, tangable thing that grows in strength with each passing moment.<BR>You two are truly blessed.<BR>Protect that love...hold it close, and never let it go.<P>You will be in my thoughts and prayers.<BR>-SD

I find it interesting that the OW in this case is flamed. BOTH are guilty of stepping outside of their marriage vows. BOTH hurt the people that they claimed to love. BOTH turned whatever deficiencies or inadequacies or problems that were existing in their life into something despicable. However [H] is commended because he says that she manipulated him and used him and lied to him. <P>Poor baby, [H] you are the only one responsible for your actions. Even if she was everything you said you were the one that still cheated on your wife. Nobody tied you down and forced you to do anything you wanted to. I’m sure that the OW did things that she shouldn’t, obviously she cheated on her husband. I’m sure she said things that were cruel. I am just as positive that you said things to her that could be viewed as manipulative, cruel, and despicable. Why is she flamed? She says that her husband knows. As a person who doesn’t have any further contact with her, you do not know what goes on behind closed doors. You have no idea if she has since your break up told her husband the full story. You do not know if she is honestly trying to restore her marriage. It is none of your business.<P>This is not in defense to this specific OW. I do not know her. She may be a truly evil person. She may be everything you say about her. However I think that any man who has cheated on his wife and then calls the OP in the situation “a parasite” is like the pot calling the kettle black. Just my opinion. <BR>