Dear LB Fairie (aka Sing),<P>Thanks for your quick response. I thought maybe the hurricane would hold you up but I see that nothing can stop you from rescuing the wounded from the oppressive ones. <P>I am not sure what this OW has any hope of recovery. She goes from one mess to another and pulls others with her. I am trying very hard to stand my own ground and a bit disappointed on my recent choices (based on trying to trust my H) and where it has led me. Mind you I will always love my child and have no ill feelings toward the other child (should there be one). Just the type of parents these children come from, some of them have a lot left to be desired. <P>So I am human and weakly believed my H when he said he was coming home. Foolish woman that I am but no more. I will work on bettering myself and be stronger for all who really need me now. <P>Thanks for the shot in the arm or the bash over the head (not sure which, since I am still emotionally numb). Common sense is a good thing, to bad we can't package it and sell it. <P>Take Care, <BR>L.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited June 16, 2001).]

ORCHID WROTE: "...he never unpack them at OWs (I've often wondered what she thought about that).<BR>I think this is indicative of how even though they are in the "fog" there is always something binding us to them...something that keeps them from commiting to OW entirely....and that something is usually what brings them back."<P>HA! This struck me as soooo funny! My H packed up and moved, took "everything he wanted" or so he said! There are still plenty of his things here! His title to HIS truck. Almost ALL of his clothes. Seems to me like all he took was his underwear and a few pairs of jeans, oh, and his suits and ties...no dress shirts, most of the rest of his "cold weather" clothes. I often picture him getting sooo cold one Autumn day he'll return just to get a sweatshirt! :O<P>Yes, I have concluded that this is the "foot in the door" he'll need to return, so to speak. At least ONE foot... (Him): "I came for the rest of my stuff." <P>Just praying and waiting for the fog to lift.<BR>Lupo<BR>

Orchid.... umm, I debated awhile before posting this, it is not the kind of support of the others, so you may want to ignore this. (plus some here find me kind of despicable, cannot always remember who does or does not, so if you are one of the ones who would rather not hear my thoughts, my apologies for butting in)<P>First I too find your H behaviour "speechless", even if he does not want to be married to you, if even half of what you say about psycho is true one has to wonder about your H mental competency.<P>My comments are toward what you imply and I mean no disrespect. That being your questioning whether this is all worth it. I do not subscribe to the belief all marriages should be saved no matter what .....blah blah blah. Or that if one just tries hard enuf some miracle will occur and the messed up spouse will always morph into this wonderful mate. Nor do I fully understand (and that may be my problem) this recurring theme here that despite my spouses serious deficiencies I will just choose to keep on loving them anyways cause I married them, that sometimes just sounds like I want to win and will not give up...in it's various guises, or co-dependency, or similar dysfunctional stuff.<P>You have ample grounds (religiously, morally, and ethically) to say enuf is enuf (and in fact you already did that). Despite the fact that divorce in general hurts kids, that is in no way a given, and seriously mitigated when one of the parents is dysfunctional (as a parent, and a spouse). Using your new marital skills, you could very well find a much better spouse (including the fact that they be a good step-father), and live a much more rewarding life, for you and children.....so the question is, to put it bluntly.....why not cut your loses now, and move on? What is there about your inner self, that is not allowing you the courage to make that choice? This all ends as soon as you make a decision to stop it, to focus on the future, to once and for all tell this individual who you chose at one time, that you forever more no longer choose them.... and move on with improving your life. Folks here say try try try and chastise us ws (perhaps rightly so) for picking this means of making our feelings known. And further tell the bs they had a part too, and all must work, earn their way out of a relationship (for all the usual reasons, psychological and cultural). But you have done the work, and then some, so it seems. Your husband has proven himself unworthy, and exceeded any reasonable standard of effort and fairplay on your part. It seems he has serious personality disorders at the very least, do you really want to spend, perhaps the rest of your life, trying to rehabilitate this man, instead of having a rewarding egalitarian marriage? Be his mother, his therapist, his keeper....instead of his friend and lover and wife? Suppose as some suggest he does hit rock bottom soon (as you pull further away), and turn around some......I don't know orchid, this sounds like way more than fog, even if he cleans up for awhile, I doubt it will stick, people do not change that much. If the changes only come from extreme pressure from you, and not from within (as they obviously will not, or would have already) then what is that worth? Like you said (and I agree 100%) he should be fighting for you too, and he is not. The likelihood is that he will be like this all his life, and continue to be a source of pain and disruption as he (for whatever reasons) refuses to hold up his end of the marriage. It would be great if all human beings just needed a kick in the butt to get straigtened out when we go awry. The unfortuneate truth is many cannot be rehabilitated (so to speak) and will just be a source of dysfunction to the people around them all their lives, but one can at least choose whether they want to be married to them (unfortuneately those of us with one for a parent are stuck with them, but I am forever greatful my mom did not try to rehabilitate my dysfunctional father....he went on to marry and have 2 more kids, who he completely screwed up, and mistreated his poor wife of 40 years..now they are retired, miserable, have nothing to do with each other.... so sad).<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited June 17, 2001).]

sad n lonely,<P>Yes, people CAN change and they can change big time. What do you call it when a person who loved you and married you suddenly decides that he or she has fallen OUT of love with you? I call that change. And if people can change for the worse, then they can certainly change for the better.<P>Orchid's marital difficulties are actually following a pretty "textbook" type pattern, if you've read about affairs. There is that withdrawal stage which often trips up the WS, which, it seems, is where Orchid's H is at this point. This doesn't mean that her marriage is over, it doesn't mean that she should give up. It means that she may need to re-evaluate her "strategy" perhaps. And it doesn't mean that her husband cannot change.<P>Review Lor's history here, if you want to read about someone whose spouse changed for the better. There are other examples as well. By following the Harley principles from the affair through recovery and applying them EVERY DAY in the marriage, people can change for the better... marriages can change for the better.<P>I am not in any way advocating turning a blind eye to what is happening here - I am pointing out that it is really quite common for it TO happen. And it means only that things are going along pretty normally.<P>Orchid, I think you are soooooo close. I don't believe for a minute that OW is pregnant, I believe that she made it up because she knows that you are. She IS a whacko and she is running scared. So her current strategy is to go to the furthest extreme and try to take you with her. Your husband is not a bad man, but he IS weak - all WS's tend to be at this stage of the game. If you love the man he was, believe that he can be that man again, just as [H] found that HE could be the man that Knewjie loved and married once again.<P>It can happen and DOES happen.<P>Remember that Dr. Harley likens affairs to ADDICTIONS.<BR><P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Hi S&L, Lupolady and Terri,<P>Thanks for all your replies. I do appreciate them. <P>S&L, I'd like to address your comments first. Yes, you are not in the majority but that is ok. Everyone here has the right to their opinion and I am not totally against yours. In fact I am leaning more that way then most realize. <P>Here is something I just posted to someone named painforever. H sounds a lot like my H, it is so similar it is scary. I will ask my H if he is posting here on Mb, after he comes home from work. <P>The point is that you are not alone in your analysis. My 2 relatives that have been my strongest supporters are now telling me to think twice about letting H back into our lives. H is wondering that also and so am I. <P>Now where does all that wondering leave us? Please read the following:<P>My H recently revealed that when his first fiancee broke up with him 1 month before the wedding and refused to give any reason, it did not allow for real closure. At that time and 'til now, he has lost the ability to be happy with himself. That in turn has helped in ruining our marriage. I never really knew why H would try so hard to be miserable. H did not want to be happy. The bad part is that he thought he was only doing this to himself. WRONG!!! His actions were felt to all who associated with him and most of all myself and his son. <P>This while revealing, has now made me angry. 10 years of lost love because someone can't put closure. The woman who thought she had the right to deny this man the ability to put closure and move on. This has ruined not just his life but mine and our son's as well. Countless others have been impacted. What recourse to take? I am debating that one. Hmmmph...... Feels like dealing with 2 ow's now and they both have the same name!!!!! YUCK!!!<P>The point is that you need to look deep and find out the real reason why you don't feel like you no longer have or may have never had love for your wife. If you think you have been wronged, look in the mirror buddy, you have wronged her also and even your children. If you were my H and I have said this to my H, if you are staying because of the guilt, then leave. I don't need your pity. <P>My H won't leave. H might one day but for now he is here. He does have guilt, he should. What he did recently and in the past is irreprehensible. If he can prove himself a worthy and valuable father and husband on a go forward basis, then there might be hope. Otherwise, yes our marriage is over. <P>Let me share something with you. This really happened and yet it has a symbolic touch. I am about to post this on my thread for those that are keeping up. <P>When OW called last Tuesday and unleased yet another d/d on me (me with morning sickness and all), I packed up the clothes in H's dresser and took some of his clothes out of the closet. They have been sitting in the hallway since then. <P>They are in the way, obstructing entrance to our office. We all have to go around it. Here is the symbolic part. I put those close there to show H how I felt. If H wants to work to be with his family, he needs to put them back. He has not yet. The time is running out for those clothes to remain there (my timeframe). H is aware. H is indecisive by his actions and that is why those clothes are still there. I am not holding here. In fact I told him to go and leave up permanently. OW would love to know this. Yet, H has avoided several of her phone calls and has agreed to only speak to her within my presence for everything. There maybe some paternity issues, not sure yet. <P>The point is that this is an obstacle to all who enter our home. It is a daily reminder for those of us who live here. Our child has learned to go around it, so have I. H also goes around it but my tolerence will end soon. The hallway like our lives will be cleared from the clutter of the A and all who associate with it. <P>Now it is a matter of how and when....... <P>That is my story. <P>The point here S&L, is that while I want to move on, I need to know that before I do, I can say with a clear conscience that I did all I could. I am almost there now and know that I can actually say it. I do love my H, he knows that but I also need to care for myself and son if H chooses not to be there for us. H & his siblings/parents always prefer to take the wimpy way out. Leave and start over again. Fortunately for them, some of those siblings married persons with much stronger character and refuse to let them take the wimpy way out without a fight. I have given H that fight. Now I have fought and done my best. If H still chooses to be a wimp, it is not something he is blindly going into. H and everyone else will know it was his choice. <P>A man who chooses to abandon his family (w & c, etc.) for selfish reasons is not much of a man in my books. A vow is a lifelong commitment, intended to weather all types of conditions. Our marriage was not so bad that we deserve to be divorced. If your marriage was/is so bad, then you should have left without the A. Using the OP as a crutch is a wimpy thing to do. Fogheads blame the mate, the OP blames the mate. Until you can justify blaming your mate without the OP and their influence and can redeem yourself that you have been the wronged one, you owe it to your W to give your marriage another shot. Your best attempt. Don't be a wimp. <P>My H says he told OW that he no longer can use me as a reason for leaving his marriage, he is the only reason now. I knew that. I really have not changed much. Just more cautious and very suspicious. Oh yes, more needy. Go figure. Had I known that was a prerequisite, I would have been more needy sooner. But somehow, the logic in my brain said not to be a burden on H since he was already having a hard time. Do you get this?<P>For Terri,<BR>Thanks for being there for me. I realize, I am pulling hard the other way. I am very tired and disappointed that my H is not jumping to my support and defense. We covered those points today in our discussion. H has delayed reaction. This conversation may sink in, in about 2 days. By then, OW will have gone to the doctor and we will be on the next bumpy ride. <P>I did ask H not to have any type of communication with OW unless I was present. At first he did not commit but tonight when I reminded him, he said yes. What that means, I am not sure. <P>Please know I appreciate your support. The LB Fairie may need to bonk me on the head pretty soon. My love bank is getting dangerously low and my morning sickness is increasing by the day. Now 3pm - 8am is when I want to nap. Rotten timing!!!!!<P>Thanks again,<BR>L.<P>

Hi Orchid, <P>I usually post on Pregnancy/Child board since that is my situation, butI lurk on other boards from time to time. Honey, you are really in the pit of "Affair Hell" right now. I am amazed you are as coherent as you are. <P>First of all, you need to visit the Pregnancy/Child board for some insight, since you are dealing with that issue. There are lots of very wise people there who have learned a lot from having to deal with an OW and an OC.<P>Next, you need to keep focusing on YOURSELF and your children. It's time you forced H to accept the consequences os his own actions. I've read all the stuff about "the fog" of the affair and how we need to be patient, etc., but the bottom line is that you cannot depend upon your H to put your feelings or the feelings or your children first. Forgive my bluntness, but he is a self-centered baby who expects you to tolerate his messes and clean up after him, all the while being the patient, devoted wife. HORSE PUCKY!!<P>H and I have been married over 26 years and have 2 grown sons AND an OC who is almost 3. OW is mean, selfish, and manipulative and comtinues to try to make our lives miserable, even after 2 1/2 years from DDay. H still does not deal with her well, and she tries to dictate what we can and cannot do, even though paternity, support, and visitation have been established legally.<P>I do love my H, but in avery different way than I did before I learned of the affair. I want so much for our family to remain intact, even though our kids are grown, because they love us both so much. But MY life is in continual turmoil, and I see no sign of that situation changing. I never dreamed when I committed myself to rebuilding this marriage that I would be dealing with the same painful issues over 2 1/2 years later. As I told H yesterday after we dropped OC off at her mother's house, my wound will never heal because the scab gets torn off every time we must have contact w/OW.<P>If OW is actually pregnant and your H is still so wishy-washy about you, what he wants, what he feels.. do dah do dah do dah..I hope you will carefully consider your options. I still am. You know, my sons' call often to say hi and check in. It's always wonderful to hear their voices, but their first question usually is "You OK, Mom?" What does that say about their perception of what is going on? <BR>It tells me that they know full well why I am still with their dad, and it makes them sad. <P>Please know my thoughts and prayers are with you, dear heart.<P>love, anniem

Originally posted by "Orchid"...[Q..H said the one thing he wanted to do was kill himself. You know I could not even muster up the sympathy to panic and try to help him. I offered him no support./Q ]<P>Just wanting to jump in here....I heard this from my daughter this past weekend, (not directed towards me...but someone else). Thought you could get a chuckle (you did ask for something to laugh about in your thread, didn't you?<P>Here it is "If you are looking for sympathy....It's between **** and syphilis in the dictionary" Enough said?<P>I'm very sad to see you are in such pain...been there done that...except for the baby part.<P>Hope for you to get the best. <BR>d2k

Hi Orchid,<BR>I'd like to share something that helped in my situation with my WS, who'd had an intense relationship with OW for a little over 10 years,the last 8 of them EA via email and phone, the last 2 of them during our courtship period and the first 15 months of our marriage. We did the EN questionnaire and found that all his needs were being met by me. I asked him nicely how many of those she had met - guess what, NONE! I asked him nicely why he could not let go of her, as he was clinging desperately - he didn't know, it was a pre-existing relationship, he was so sorry for her and felt so guilty about just abandoning her. She had asked him many many times to marry her and he didn't want to; to use his own words "he always squirmed out of it because he knew it would be a disaster. She's really irrational and when they tried living together he couldn't stand it and they separated in a week." She also begged him three times in the first two months after our marriage to divorce me and offered to pay all the expenses.... This OW is a lot like yours, a drama queen who continually creates crises and shoots herself in the foot. Throws up her job, writes stinking letters to her boss, gets her email privileges revoked, has been engaged to three other men during the last 5 years of her ongoing EA with my H, walked out on the first guy the night before the wedding, the second got dumped 3 days before the wedding, the last one threw her out 3 days before the wedding. She was engaged to, living with and had bought a house with this third man, and this was during H's engagement to me. Poor little thing gets depressed, is manic-depressive but keeps stopping her medication.<P>My H had the White Knight syndrome. He is actually a very nice person, real prey for a parasite like his OW. He justified his treatment of me on the grounds that we were physically together and we were married, and that I am "such a strong woman". Sound familiar?<P>About a month ago we did some co-dependency tests, as I was desperately afraid that that was what happpened with him and me (first marriage was co-dependency with alcoholic.) OW'd been out of the picture for 2 months by then, after my H finally allowed her to drop him in a phone conversation in my presence. These tests showed that out of 13 warning signs H and I have possibilities in 2 - he expects me to fix and rescue him, and he tends to obsess over relationships.<P>He used the same score sheet to evaluate his relationship with her: 11 strongly positive, the other 2 probable. This is according to his own judgement, no coaching by me! It opened up all kinds of stuff for him and he sees her very differently now although he still feels sorry for her... but he sees now how vindictive and manipulative she is, and can't believe how easily and completely he fell for her tales of woe.<P>Could this be a possibility with your H? Co-dependency is real and has elements of sadomasochism as opposed to the healthy Harley-style interdependency. Have you read "Women Who Love Too Much" by Robin Norwood? It scared me.<P>I've been thinking of you all weekend and hoping that day will dawn for you and your H soon. <P>

Dear Anniem,<P>Thanks for your support. I have already posted my story on the preg/child board and received a lot of support there also. It truly is a nightmare dealing with a psyco no less. My H says that sometimes he feels I exaggerate. There is no exaggerating this story. Couldn't even if I tried. <P>No, it is not my way to exaggerate. I am usually a very logical, methodical person and want everyone who needs to know to have all the right info. Misleading anyone is not my way. However, my H likes to downplay the bad stuff and there is where the difference lies between us. I don't downplay anything, tell it like it is, get it out and over with, is usually my motto. With tact and kindness as much as possible but I will not cover over wrong doing just to fuel the bad act further. <P>Anyway, thanks for your thoughts. I too, wonder for how long will this go on. OW is suppose to have a doctor's appointment today. We will know later. H has said he will not call or see OW without me being present. He has never actually done that before so time will tell. <P>I need to stay extra calm now not just for myself and son but now for this little one growing within me. I have prayed for a calm heart and clear mind and truly believe I have been given such. Though I have been taken to my limit many times, I can still see past the fog of despair. <P>This woman has lied before. She is 45 supposedly never had a child, claimed to preg last Nov and lost it in Dec, but never took the preg test and never went to the doc. Even though she supposedly miscarried and bled a lot while on the phone with H last Dec. See there are a lot of her stories where there are holes. Also she has not displayed the true attitude of a woman bearing a child. Not then and so far not now. Her focus is on attacking my character, whining to H, selfishly putting herself above all others. She has even stated that our son (6 years old) will be ok without his dad, so that H can go and live with her. If she does become a mother, I pity her child. <P>So we are waiting for that dreaded call........<P>L.<P>

Hi JustStartingOver,<P>I read your post with great intensity. You mentioned tests. Are the copies something I can get a hold of and do at home? I would very much like to work with this for my own knowledge. H is very much the white knight when it comes to others. He has always been that way. I on the other hand have always tried to be self sufficient and don't like being a burden. <P>What a combination. Never thought that would lead to all this mess. There are so many women out there just waiting for the opportunity to use someone else's H for their own. OW even scolded me for sleeping with my H. Let's see, he did come home to work on our marriage and what did she expect? Roommates? When I told her that I was the one married to H, she said that did not matter. Psyco or what?<P>Anyway, if you could get me that info, it would be great. I will check out that book. Don't know if I am up to scary stories but may need to be since I seem to forced in living a scary real life soap opera. Watch out General Hospital - is that soap still on the air?<P>L.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited June 18, 2001).]

Hi,<BR>Yes, these are tests you can get off the web. I have them bookmarked at home, but will do a quick websearch now and pick them up for you - I remember the search terms I used.<P>My H's OW came up with some classic phrases: "Just because the two of you got married doesn't mean my relationship with H has to change" was the first. I told my H forthwith that I would NOT be a "just because". During the final throes she attacked me viciously several times, coming up with another classic: "Just because you two are married doesn't mean you aren't two separate people. I have several friends who still support me even after they got married." Also, "Why should H be punished for wanting to maintain a friendship with me?"<BR>She accused me of intercepting his email and of being very very nasty to her. She accused me of forcibly preventing him from writing to/phoning her. She continuously told him how miserable she is without him. Yeah right. 6 years at opposite ends of the world, 3 engagements, several other boyfriends. <P>Even H finally saw what she was up to here! And his reply to that last email led to her phoning him in floods of tears asking if he really wanted to break off all contact. He said yes, so she tried to get him to change his mind over the next 15 minutes before he said he had to go. She'd already spoken to me saying how much she hates her past and how she needs to move on with her life after all this abuse and victimisation. I think she saw herself as the victim here...<P>My H is very much a White Knight. We have a colleague who's a drug addict and truly not capable at his work. My H goes to extraordinary lengths to protect and cover up for him. Whenever he finds something this person has screwed up, he tries to unobtrusively set it right before one of our supervisors finds out. And he lets him get away with extremely bad behaviour, like inviting a girl he fancies to join us for supper and then catching a sulk because we hadn't brought enough money to cover the costs of a luxury meal for her.<P>Like you, I try not to be a burden. So my H saw me as just so strong even though I was desperate. That's how my first husband got away with 17 years of extreme emotional abuse. I covered up, I coped, I lied to myself and others. Classical symptoms of the co-dependent.<P>Wow, I did not mean to sound off like this on your thread! I'll get those sites for you now.<P>Very best wishes. Hang in there.<BR>

Here are 4 good URLs. The two I found most useful are the first two. The second has a table comparing real love with what the author calls "toxic love" that is really interesting.<BR> <A HREF="http://tickittees.addr.com/~sariaa/codep-rl/codep-rl.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://tickittees.addr.com/~sariaa/codep-rl/codep-rl.htm</A> <A HREF="http://www.silcom.com/~joy2meu/joy_13.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.silcom.com/~joy2meu/joy_13.htm</A> <A HREF="http://www.aliveandwellnews.com/a/codependency/signs_and_symptoms_of_codependen.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.aliveandwellnews.com/a/codependency/signs_and_symptoms_of_codependen.htm</A> <A HREF="http://www.excite.com/relationships/singles/issues_and_problems/codependency/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.excite.com/relationships/singles/issues_and_problems/codependency/</A> <P>I shall be holding you in my thoughts and prayers.

Orchid,<P>I'm way late in responding, for that I apologize. Wow, OW, wow. I, as many others have stated, do NOT believe that OW is pregnant. It's just another thing she is trying to use to keep H thinking and to upset you. Try not to let it upset you. I know it's easier said then done.<P>I want to remind you of the things you have reminded me of so many times. BREATHE! Take time for you. What have you done for YOURSELF today?!?<P>Just thing of the squishy bat Really really, Orchid, I am prepared to use it. I'm here for you dear friend.<P>Just know you are in my thoughts and prayers as are your son and Baby Orchid. Your H is also in my prayers.<P><B>(((((((((((((((((((((((((ORCHID)))))))))))))))))))))))))</B><P>Sending you BIG hugs, prayers, strength and support.<P>Hang in there and take care of YOU!<P>K/LostNco/DSN<BR>[H]'s wife <p>[This message has been edited by Knewjie (edited June 18, 2001).]

Hi JSO,<P>Thanks for the links. I have been reading them and found a lot of thought provoking info. Need to digest and figure out what and how to share it with H. <P>Trying to figure out if there is such a thing as a good co-dependant vs bad. Hm..... <P>K, <BR>Thanks for all your support. I am glad you and your H are doing so well. Keep up the good work. That H of yours has been real busy. Turning into quit a poster. <P>Take Care and thanks,<BR>L.<BR>

Any news Orchid?<P>------------------<BR>Prayers, Hugs, and Strength from both of us. Things do and can get better. Keep hoping, learning, and growing. Take care of yourself.<P>[H] and Knewjie

Ditto [H]. How are you holding up??<P>I just wanted to let you know I'm thinking of you.<P>K

Well, never a dull moment here. Supposedly OW went to the doctor and he said that she is preg. H didn't bother asking how far along she was. The doctor said due to her age, her eggs were old. She is a high risk preg and needs to do extensive tests. I told H, do not give her anything, if she wants anything, OW needs to use the legal resources. H said what do I want to see a dna test? I said yes and written proof from the doctor that she is preg. Now H says that OW is not knowledgeable about pregnancies. Oh, this ignorance is coming from someone who only said a few months ago that I was stupid since I did not hold a degree in biology as she did. That I was illiterate and uneducated. <P><BR>She again asked H for money, he did not promise anything. OW again commented that OW was annoyed that I supposedly spoke rude to her when she called and cussed at me last week. Let's see, an OW calls, demands to speak to my H, calls me a B, tells me she is preg, says OW is a lady and I am not, tells me it doesn't matter that I am married to H and then is annoyed that I did not respond in a 'friendly' manner? Hmmph.... she should be glad I did not cuss her out. That is not my style. Besides, H said a long time ago that OW was hard of hearing, so I thought I had to speak up. Both H and Ow are convinced I was sarcastic. H says that my being 'rude' is uncalled for even if OW has done bad things, I should not be rude to her. RUDE!?!?!?!?! What was I suppose to be? I was not rude. I was upset at all her name calling. Mind you H did not hear all of OW's precious and sensitive sentences to me, so he is relying on the whinney psyco to say, that she is hurt at how I spoke to her. I don't get it. I told H if he wants to protect her and not me, he needs to be with her and not with his family. LB or not this is stupid. <P>I learned all of this while driving home from work. Needless to say I am 'very upset'. Oh, by the way, H's clothes is still in the hallway. He was home until 4pm, he had time to move it. I told him if it is not moved, I will put it outside. H asked me to wait until he got home tonight. Hold me back......<P>He had most of the day to do 'something' around the house to at least take care of his stuff. I see nothing done. I must be blind. Oh yea and I am rude also. Hmmmm what other bad characteristics do I possess that I am not aware of? Will someone please let me know? <P>Now H claims that if I did not send that e-mail to him back in Jan that OW intercepted, H might have been home sooner. WHAT?!??! H now says that he really did not want to stay with OW but because I was again 'so bad' (sneaky by not revealing at the beginning who really sent that e-mail - I allowed about 11 - 14 days for them to wonder in the meantime OW responded with a bad enough response to get that account closed by HOTMAIL), that he had to stay out with her longer. WHAT??!!??!? It is over 80 degrees here but I think the fog is coming back in. <P>If I can find that towel, I want to throw it in. Where is it? I am not holding H back, he can walk out and divorce me right now. H is still financially obligated, I will not absolve him of that responsibility. <P>I don't need this stress, it hurts and stinks. Yesterday, the car rental agency left me stranded at the auto repair shop. The shop was closed so I had to sit in an industrial area by myself for about 1 hour trying to find someone to pick me up and deliver me to the rental agency. The only rental agency's open in the vincinity would not do pickups. H finally shows up about 1 hour later, we go back to his work, I find a 'surprise in his truck. I will post that on a separate thread. Then we go to dinner (H does not make conversation, son and I talk or try to talk with H). Upon coming out of the restaurant, H walks ahead, you know like in those foreign countries where the man walks ahead of his family?!!! This upsets me, I feel like we are being treated like 2nd class citizens. <P>H would like to think I am exaggerating but I am not. This what happened. I informed H of my feelings and he kept coming up with lousy excuses. I said, if this is the best he could do, he needs to find those who appreciate his attention in this manner. It was insulting to me and my son. At dinner our son straight up asked his father, how long did H divorce mom? He meant how long did H live away from us? Son asked me first, I directed his questions to his dad. H said 4 months, not divorced just lived away from the family. Son said he did not understand why dad had to live away from us for so long and then asked how many days was that. Hmmm...... thoughtful kid, for some strange reason, 120 days seems longer than 4 months. Boy, my little drove his point home right there in the restaurant. Good thing the other tables were far enough away no one could really hear the conversation. Now you may think that is why H does not speak with us. No H says he has nothing to say. Hmm.... wonder if he does that to OW?<P>L.<P>

Hold you back? Girl, I'll come over and help you.<BR>I'll even make him some waffles for breakfast. (A WAT special.)<P>I want to show my H this post just so he'll go get snipped. By God, if 'our' OW came up pregnant....after I had to get tubes tied, well let's just say there would be an earthquake they couldn't tie to the San Andreas! <P>((((((((((Orchid and baby)))))))))<P>You just count to 1000---okay 1 million, breathe--have some decaf tea, take a cool bathe---BE NICE TO YOURSELF.<P><BR>Cali

Orchid,<P>You should put a recording device on your phone so you can catch those wonderful conversations with the OW. Then do a replay to your H.<P>She sounds like he has two sides, on for you H and one for you.<P>I don't know how you find the strength to deal with this.<P>Z<P><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Orchid,<P>Wow wow and triple WOW! I don't have any advice for you right now other than take care of YOU!<P>Here's some things to make you laugh or at least smile. <P>Squishy bats<BR>Rolling pins<BR>BUGS!!!<P>Now go close your office door for this one. <P>EXTRA VIRGIN OLIVE OIL <P>Are you smiling yet?!?!?! <P><B>(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((ORCHID)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))</B><P>Hang in there hon. We're ([H] & I) here for you.<P>K/LostNco/DSN<BR>[H]'s wife <BR>