Hi, <P>I need to be constantly reminded that a ws who is abusing alcohol coupled with infidelity is not a ws who is going to listen to the bs.<P>The ws loves his first love--the alcohol. So incredibly hard to believe but I am living it. <P>Other's experiences help me to come closer to seeing just how difficult it is to penetrate the defense systems built by the ws to defend and rationalize their actions and behaviors.<P>When ow is an alcoholic with dwi convictions, the two of them perpetuate their love for alcohol--NOT EACH OTHER.<P>Is the infidel's relationship with ow stable? No, and neither is the relationhship with the alcohol. <P>I know my wisest position on the hill is patience and non-interference; yet, that means right through a divorce that he thinks he wants and she insists he go for...so he can be her FOURTH husband...any my family, my children and my marriage go up in smoke-- while this women smokes endlessly and blows smoke into his face that thickens the fog around his head...<P>Yes, I am hurt, and sad and angry and resentful and devastated, and I find it so very very hard to let go...<BR>even in the wake of this flood of dirty water...<P>Alcohol is insidious and the choice he is making is so hard for me to comprehend...can't comprehend because I do not abuse alcohol to the point of drinking and driving..<P>Thanks for listening...elo

Hi Elo:<P>First of all let me say that I don't think my WH in any way is an alcoholic, but he likes the lifestyle that is conducive to drinking....OW is a heavy drinker...and like your OW is on her fourth husband...lost her kids to her drinking...been to jail for her drinking. Remember when you were in high school and everyone was carefree and alcohol use was part of the culture (at least for some people)...well, some people like that kind of life and they sorta get stuck there...and my WS, after a life time of being Mr. Responsible has reverted to this...but now the only people you can find doing this at his age (49) are pretty worthless...and OW is one of them.<P>It's a way of getting lost so you don't have to deal with the regular world...an escape from reality....and for my WS the best escape he could find...lost in a world of hedonisitic self-indulgence with a sexually liberated (she sleeps around) OW with a taste for the low life...the exact opposite of me and my life.<P>My only thought is how long can you remain in this lifestyle and maintain your self-esteem...especially if you've been someone in your life (he's a professional). <BR>I know if I were sluming I would feel very bad about myself.<BR>And WS claims not to see any difference in OW and myself...she just hasn't had the opportunities I have had...wrong...wrong...wrong...she just hasn't made the same choices that I did in life...because I know she had the chance...she is what she chose to be...and continues to choose to be.<P>I agree with you that there is little that we can do but wait and see if they are able to pull themselves out of the muck. They have to want to...no one can do it for them...but it sure is hard to stand by and watch it all happen and not be able to help.<P>Faye

elo, I've responded to your posts on D/D because I relate to your situation. <P>buffy, my H is an almost 49 year old professional who reverted to the teenage lifestyle along with his 22 year old OW who shares his taste for drugs, alcohol, and irresponsibility.<P>I think the way to decide if someone is an alcoholic is to look at whether the alcohol is affecting his/her life negatively - financial problems, work problems, relationship problems, health problems, etc. Similar to you, my H says OW reminds him of me. Gee, thanks.<P>Remember the Serenity Prayer? God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Try Al-Anon, it works.

Letstry:<P>It's not the alcohol that the draw...it's the lifestyle.<P>I thought perhaps it might be alcohol in the beginning and I did attend some alanon meetings and they were helpful in seeing that there was nothing I could do about it..whatever the problem was. But I have since realized that his problem isn't alcohol...he is just running and hiding in the lifestyle...he has always been a obsessive man...what ever he is in to...he is in head over heels...right now it is OW and the teenage, dating, partying lifestyle.<P>There is, however, something to be said for the idea that no matter how much alcohol you drink if it is effecting you life then you are an alcoholic...I tend to think if you can't give it up then you are an alcoholic and I don't think WS would have any problems giving it up. <P>OW lives 1500 miles away from us and only comes in every six or seven months...during that time WS's activity is cut way down...she is his inroad into that lifestyle. But he is getting some EN out of it and it's not something I can supply so I have to just hope he will get tired of it.<P>Faye<BR>

Bubby, Letustry,<BR>Thanks for replying and caring. I am concerned and interested in both of you and your situtations.<P>For now, I am very short on advice. I am just burned, exhuasted, frazzled, torn, ripped apart, discarded,<BR>broken, etc.<P>I have so many issues and concerns and I don't which to address first. If I had to focus on one, it would have to be what to do about continuing to live in this house emotionlally without H and how to pay the notes if I do stay.<P>I have printed and read your replys.<P>I believe that alcohol was the main factor in the equation that led my husband back into the lifestyle that he obviously gave up his family and wife for.<P>If my H had said to me that he wanted to go, and there had never been any alcohol abuse, the accident, the dwi's, the woman, the gambling, the fraud, the forgeries of my name on the amended income tax returns and checks, the defiance of the child support judgment, the withholding of money before he left (premeditatively), and the obvious "forgetting" of<BR>his children becuase the relationship with the ow was first--So, as I said, if all this other garbage had not happened, I don't really know if it would have been any easier, probably not, but it would not have been so bizarre, crazy,<BR>stressful, absurb, incomprehensible, mind boggling, and so on.<P>Get my drift? alcohol is the culprit that leads them to the point of TOTAL INSENSITIVITY AND SELFISHNESS AND SELF-INDULGENCE AT THE EXPENSE OF ANYONE ELSE OR ANYTHING ELSE.<BR>tHEIR OWN SELFISH AGENDA--THAT IS THEIR FOCUS

elo, I agree with you totally. I know in my H's case, he was leaning toward friendships with young people before he started drinking again (my H was a sober alcoholic for almost 10 years), but it wasn't until after he started drinking that the crazy teenage behavior, verbal abuse, and the affair began.<P>Maybe a mid-life crisis precipitated the drinking. Who knows and what does it really matter? If my H's OW was 50 instead of 22, if he listened to oldies rather than rap, if he was hanging out in bars rather than throwing "kegger" parties and shooting speed, what difference would it make?<P>buffy, Dr. Harley says that alcoholism is when you're unable to follow the POJA (BrambleRose left links on elo's thread on D/D). That's a pretty harsh definition but it makes sense. Being able to stop is deceiving. Could he stop and stay stopped? Probably not. Maybe he could have in the past but that doesn't mean he can now. <P>My H had me convinced that he'd learned to drink normally - in fact he never drank more than 2-3 beers in front of me - and that the cause of all our problems was how much I'd hurt him over the years. I wanted to believe this because it gave me some hope, I could change and be the way he wanted me to be, and he'd love me again and leave OW, right? <P>It was so hard to accept that I can change myself but I can't change him. His bad behavior is not my fault. He's responsible for himself and the more I worked on myself the worse he got - because his alcoholism and drug addiction are progressing, it had nothing to do with me. And OW drinks and uses drugs right along with him. I can't compete with that, and wouldn't want to. <P>For a while, H was seeing both of us, either living with her and "cheating" (his words) with me, or living with me and cheating with her. His behavior calmed down when he was with me just as your H's calms down when OW is away. They use us to help themselves maintain some control, but eventually it doesn't work anymore. We can't control them and they can't control the alcohol and/or drugs.<P>Good luck to both of you, and keep in touch.

Letstry:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> Originally posted by Letstry.<P>Maybe a mid-life crisis precipitated the drinking. Who knows and what does it really matter? If my H's OW was 50 instead of 22, if he listened to oldies rather than rap, if he was hanging out in bars rather than throwing "kegger" parties and shooting speed, what difference would it make?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, well WS's OW is 45, he hangs out in bars and listens to CW (it is Texas, you know) and I pray he's not using drugs (no indication so far), and I do think his is in a mid-life crisis.<P>This is a man who I have lived with for twenty-five years...during which time he has never had a liquor problem of any kind (we never even had any in the house).<P>I will say that when I met him in college he was living with a bunch of guys...was about to get kicked out of school for not going to class...and was basically just hanging around drinking with the guys...but this is not that unusual a behavior for college guys, especially for the freshman year. We met, married, went through 8 years of school, had two kids and then came home to his own town to practice. All this time no alcohol. <P>Then he spends years learning to practice, hours buried with his head in books and up to his elbows in work....and years pass...and one day, he's 45 and he's not what he use to be physically and he is beginning to have medical problems...life is looking like it's coming to the end...and he says "What's it all been about? I would have been happier if I had just spent my life living from hand to mouth and spend my days visiting with my friends."<BR>Being very garrarous and talkative...that is his ideal of the way to spend your life...sitting around b***s****** with your friends. His old life left no time for that...so he decided to give it up....found an OW who would live the type of life he wanted...friends who could sit around all day BSing...and I think alcohol is just part of the picture, because he's with people who have let it control their lives and have had very little real life because of it. So now he lives in both worlds....during the day he practices....with me by his side....at night he crawls back under the rock for a while. But I really don't think he enjoys this as much as he thought he would...he gets tired of it...but he is like a chameleon...he needs other people to give him direction and substance...he's weak and has little self-esteem.<P>I have seen recently a willingness to discuss things that I have not seen in five years...and that's how long he's been at this...off and on....which is the time table mentioned by the experts as the time it could take to work himself through a mid-life crisis. He's beginning to take responsibility for what has happened and look for ways to change...both for me and for him...and for so long he has basically been saying he is going to live his life the way he wants to live it since he doesn't have much more time to live. Maybe the fog is lifting a little...I will see.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>For a while, H was seeing both of us, either living with her and "cheating" (his words) with me, or living with me and cheating with her. His behavior calmed down when he was with me just as your H's calms down when OW is away. They use us to help themselves maintain some control, but eventually it doesn't work anymore. We can't control them and they can't control the alcohol and/or drugs. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, he has actually said this to me "You are my rock. I need you in my life." Yeah, like his mom...someone to come home to when you're tried of your wild life...but he goes back after he's rested up a bit. And he wants me to spend time with him...during the day we are as if nothing is wrong...just an old married couple...hugs and kisses, etc. It's crazy. And I would like to do Plan B, but I'm afraid it would be the last straw for him...he would just drift off into oblivion with OW...his one reason for sanity gone. I'm probably wrong about that...but it is so hard. Everyday I just feel like I can't go any further with this, but I do.<P>Elo:<P>Hon, I don't know how you can do this. If I didn't have financial support from my WS I don't know what I would do. Actually he has continued to exist as if he were still at home...he doesn't even contribute to OW's needs other then food, cigarettes and liguor...it's like he's an unpaying boarder (well, really she and he are staying at a trailer house he brought) so she really is the boarder, but he doesn't pay for any of her expenses while he continues to pay all my bills. I do know that when he was at the height of his addiction to OW, he was very mean and hateful...blamed me for everything...but that only lasted about two weeks and then reason pervailed. I think this is a necessary part of the separation...to enable them to accept the quilt they must feel...by making us the villians...and punishing us for being so. And our children get wrapped up in all the negative emotions and distancing although I think they still care for all of us, but...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>TOTAL INSENSITIVITY AND SELFISHNESS AND SELF-INDULGENCE AT THE EXPENSE OF ANYONE ELSE OR ANYTHING ELSE.<BR>tHEIR OWN SELFISH AGENDA--THAT IS THEIR FOCUS [</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think you've hit the nail on the head here...and there is nothing we can do about it...except sit and wait and hope they'll come out of it before it's all gone. As I mentioned to Letstry, the experts say it can take 5 years to work through a mid-life crisis...I've spent mine but I wouldn't urge anyone to do the same...although he has really only been in crisis for about 2 years total...as I say OW is in and out of our lives...it has been 5 years since this all began...5 years of indecision, putting my life on hold and hurt and confusion for both of us. If I had it to do over again...I would have move on...and let the chips fall where they might have. Sure would have saved a lot of wear and tear on me...but I'm stronger now for having been through it....and now I will survive any way it turns out. I think you will too...because enduring all this takes courage and strength to begin with...all it does is make us stronger. I'll be praying for you.<P>Faye<P><BR> <p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited June 20, 2001).]

Bubby, Letustry,<BR>I have read through your replies.<P>Are either of you divorced? If so, who moved to file it?<BR>How long after affair revealed? <P>I do believe that my H is in a mid-life crisis. Alcohol is a major factor in the equation--the affair a result because he met ow in a bar...one thing led to another...<P>When he left the first time, he came back after 10 days and he was full of remorse, shame, and guilt. OW didn't leave him alone cause she was housing with a cousin who brought her here from TX. Ow had been in jail for dwi conviction in Nov. 1999. Another prior dwi conviction in 1992. In jail and treatment center in 1993. Three times married and div.<P>Then, he left the 2md time on 3/30/99/ in a premeditated manner...I knew where he had moved the first time and he still had some things there because he had paid rent for a month....I was too stupid and blind not to think he would go back there. So, I got in my van and I drove there about 15 miles away. He came out and my first and foremost thought which I then verbalized to him was: You look like a "STUD OUT TO PASTURE". And to this day, I am still convinced that my impression of him was very accurate as he approached me as I went to try to talk to him. That, Buffy and Letustry, was 15 months ago. Life has been hell for me and my children.<P>REcently, someone I met had briefly saw my H and her "distinct impression" as that "HE IS A PERSON WHO THINKS HIGHLY OF HIMSELF". Her exact words were "he is full of himself"!<P>So, I am convinced that he is in a mid-life crisis. I read a book titled "Why Men LEave" and mid -life crisis was one of the reasons. I think this was mentioned in your replies.<BR>So, five years, huh? And most affairs usually die a natural death after about 18-24 months. Well, no hope for us.<P>My husband woke up one day and I think he said to himself: What has been going on out there since I have been home with my wife and 3 kids for these 20 years. While I have been home being a father and a husband, the world has passed my by. I am missing out on so much. I can't<BR>let another minute pass ...I have to leave.............And he did...with the Old cow that just happened to have moved here from Tx and when he met her in the bar--as the saying goes: "DRINK TIL THEY'RE CUTE" AND THEY WERE OFF--TO HELL WITH ANYBODY ELSE...<P>And so 18 months later (from the dwi accdient they were in in his truck 10 days after they met that fateful night), and 15 months later from the time he left 2x, here I sit and the divorce is days from finality. And I am devastated.<BR>Esp. since he was so ambivalent for the first 9-10 months.<BR>But ow made sure that she hardened him...they have so much in common...huh! like what? Alcohol. She is not bright.<BR>He wants no responsibilities and he has no "CLUE" as to the pain he has caused us. He feels no pain and he is totally insensitive to our feelings because of the alcohol. I have read some letters written to Dr. Harley about how alcohol destroys marriages. So tragic and I am living it...<P>I am glad to hear from you both and to read your situations.<BR>Please keep and touch and I am thinking of you both.<P>I just can't seem to make any progress. I am very depressed. So hard to believe and to hard to accept.<P>elo

elo and buffy, So sorry to hear what you're going through. I haven't been going through this as long as either of you. I didn't know about the A until H moved out and moved in with OW after Thanksgiving last year. They lived together for 4 months, he came home for 1.5 months, and then kicked me and kids out and moved OW in for 2 weeks until I got a restraining order and moved back in 2 weeks ago with a temporary restraining order. <P>I'm filing for divorce to protect the business we own together. I might not rush into it so quickly otherwise, though even Steve Harley told me I'd done everything I could and recommended divorce, despite his goal of saving all marriages that can be saved.<P>My H sounds so much like both of yours. It's hard to believe that someday they won't wake up and wonder what they've done with their lives since what they're doing now is so out of character. <P>buffy, I can't say what role alcohol plays in your H's choices. Just because he did not use alcohol for 25 years doesn't mean he couldn't be an alcoholic now. On the other hand, you know him and I don't. I know my H and he has a history of alcohol and drug abuse. As his dad said, I love Dr. Jekyll and I hate Mr. Hyde.

ELO, every one else,<BR> (((((((((((Big Hugs to All)))))))))))))<P> I'm practically in tears, for I know of the terrible pain of alcoholism in a marriage. It's in mine, everyone had such good replies, I'm just saying I know how you all feel<BR>the despair of it is more than anyone should have to bear!!<BR> You really can't control anyone in anything, but it still does'nt make it hurt any less. I must be a "fixer -upper"<BR>to have married a man like "dear ol' dad". But somehow I did<BR>and subconsciously I must have thought "I'll fix him" or <BR>"I will treat him so good he won't want to drink" all the crap we tell ourselves. But no of it ever works. Then trying<BR>to "get" them to quit through our actions does'nt work either. I tried a suicide attempt, begging, screaming, joining him, EPO's, police, church, my affair, nothing has changed. So now I live knowing it WILL happen again, he will get drunk and call me every filthy name he can think of, claim he does'nt care about me at all, to go to hell, <BR>ect. ect. My affair had no change in what he called me, he said the same nasty things long before I had done it. So I <BR>don't have any words of wisdom, looking for them myself,<BR>just wanted to send some love to my sisters (and brothers)<BR>suffering in the same hell of addiction.<P><BR> Much love,<BR> Last Try

Letstry, <BR>Thanks for your reply. I read so many posts but when you tell a little about your story, I remember reading many of your other posts. Your situation goes back to Thanksgiving of 2000?<P>I had one conversation with S. Harley and he told me to write a Plan A letter and tell my mil about money problems.<BR>I took Harley's advice on first but not second. Plan A letter has been out there to my H since March 2001. I could not bring myself to inform mil about financial disaster because I do not believe she would want to hear it.<P>Never called Harley back due to lack of funds. Did talk to Dr. Harley on radio show. He told me to go to Plan B 3 weeks after Plan A letter. <P>WEll, slowly, I have become more convinced that due to the alcohol, it just doesn't matter about Plan A and Plan B letters. My H's alcohol abuse sends us to a different level and we, as others with alcohol as a factor, don't fit into Dr. Harley's philosophy. <P>Am I rationalizing that alcohol is the reason why my H disappeared off the face of the "normal" people earth?<BR>Well, I can't come up with any other plausible explanation.<P>In retrospect, when I focus on the accident and the dwi and the ow and the speeding on wet windy roads taht night, and that is the same night I found out about the affair from ow's cousin, I let this be a reminder that alcohol is the major factor in this equation--and I can't make the answer to the equation come out to be reconciliation--unless, my H ends the affair and admits he has an alcohol abuse problem---and then he decides he needs help to stop drinking alcohol.<P>Lasttry: thanks for coming in on this post. I am so glad to have these friends that keep coming back to talk about how their lives and marriages have been adversely affected<BR>by alcohol abuse. Keep talking to us.<P>AM thinking of all of you.<P>elo

elo, I agree with you about how our situations don't really fit the MB model because of alcohol. That's why I tried to deny the alcohol and drugs, because I thought that if I could just follow Plan A and/or Plan B, I had some control of the situation. With alcohol I have none and I didn't want to accept that. <P>I don't think you're rationalizing to blame alcohol. In fact, for me I was rationalizing to not blame alcohol. <P>It's sad to hear that so many other people are in the same situation. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. But it really helps to know I'm not alone. In the Alanon meetings I go to, there's no one else dealing with an affair on top of the alcoholism. The combination is really devastating, as you well know. <P>Last try, I know the pain you're going through. I've been called every name in the book and then some. Even worse is being told he hates me, I disgust him, and he never loved me. Don't blame yourself. You didn't make him an alcoholic and you can't cure him. Have you been to Alanon? In Alanon you learn to focus on yourself and how to gain serenity whether the alcoholic continues to drink or not.

elo, letstry,<BR> We're all in a similar boat, thank you and others for responding to my posts as well. You'll never know how much it does mean to me, I agree with elo there is no set formula for marriage restoration with alcohol involved. I have'nt found any, there's no rhyme or reason to the maddness. LT, I tried a couple of years to go find a meeting did'nt have any luck, it was supposed to be a a catholic rectory, I had the address, but not being catholic I had no idea what a rectory was ?? Right now he's sober and I feel if I go he'll use it as some excuse to start drinking, I can hear him say "well you go to them meetings for alkies wifes I might as well drink" I'm not joking. So right now we're holding steady on a even keel, but who knows when that will change? You guys please reach out to me when you need someone who's understanding of what the life is like, I don't post alot, but I check it out everyday. Whether he's actively drinking or not I always live with whens the next time and it's a BIG burden to carry, I wish I could let go but there's so much involved, so much at stake as with you all too. Who has the answer? I don't know, but maybe we can share it with one another.<BR> God Bless You All. <BR> LT

last try, I know that fear about going to meetings angering the alcoholic. I stopped going last fall for basically that reason. H insisted I was being hysterical assuming he was using drugs and drinking and I actually started to feel like I might be crazy, ashamed of what I'd said in the meetings about him and too embarassed to go tell them he wasn't using drugs and alcohol after all (or maybe of being confronted with the fact that I was buying his bs). <P>My situation now is much easier. My H is gone. But I also know for a fact that he's both drinking and using IV "crank" (amphetamines) because I found syringes and drugs in the house and it was littered with beer cans and bottles. He's also smoking marijuana and, for some reason, that's all he was willing to admit to his lawyer.<P>If there is some way you could go to a meeting when your H is at work or at least talk to someone on the phone. Often when you call the number in the phone book, there will be someone on the other end you can talk to or a recording giving numbers of people willing to accept calls. Try it!<P>BTW, I think a rectory is where the rector or priest lives, usually next door to the church.

This thread is interesting to me cause my H has an alcohol problem. My H is having an affair now (D-day was 4/21) and all the patterns that he has lived with all these years of abusing alcohol are present with the A (denial, lying, isolating, lack of regard). This is a more concentrated dose of waywardness but the waywardness has gone on all our married life with alcohol being his "mistress". He is a binge drinker so that we can go periods of time without drunkenness and can have times of availablity to each other. So consequently, there is alot of good in our life together. <P>I am learning that he cannot love or be loved. I have tried to learn Plan A/Plan B and read that Dr Harley said that Plan A does not work with substance abuser but I am discovering that it still may have benefit. If you Plan A til you can't no more, you will feel better about yourself and it may cause that "bottom" to come to the abuser. If not, you go away feeling good about yourself. I think Plan A is like the Alanon program. Doing everything out of respect for your WS is beneficial for you cause you learn that you cannot control anyone and the decision they make are theirs.<P>I do not feel responsible for the A. I know alcohol abuse has kept me from admiring and showing affection to WS but and I know that this would change if WS was available emotionally to me. So it is almost like a reflex---drinking results in distance.<P>I am in the process of being a regular at Alanon so that I can make a decision if I want to live with the abuser and adulterer anymore. It is not lookin good. I can now say I still love him but I don't want to live with all his major distractions and his inability to control his need for the unhealthy things in life. He is very rarely home anymore and our home seems like a motel for him. I must say this is very painful and I do not know how much longer I can last but I feel I need to give it a little more time for some reason.<P>Just some thoughts,<BR>TW<P>

tossedwave, I know how you feel about loving but not knowing if you can live with alcoholic WS. My H is gone so it's not really my choice, but I fully expect this relationship to crash eventually. I've been round and round with his drinking and drug abuse. He got sober for almost 10 years, though I'd say he was really sober less than 1/2 that time, and then started drinking again and then using drugs. The open relationship with the OW is a new addition though I suspect it was going on for some time before I knew and that there may have been others (this from things I've heard).<P>Dday for you was not that long ago. Mine was just after Thanksgiving last year and it still seems to soon. I also did not admire him enough. It's hard with an alcoholic.<P>I'm also trying to become a regular at Al-Anon and today I asked someone to be my sponsor. At this point, Al-Anon is what I need. The affair just makes it so much more emotionally devastating. <P>Glad you're here.

I know how you all feel dealing with a WS who uses alcohol &/or drugs. But, I think my situation may be unique. Because my H spent so much time drinking with the boys after work, I felt lonely & neglected. That's what led to my A. OM & I have had no contact since D-day - 10/00.<P>However, because of the pain & hurt I caused H, he is now having an A. She's a young, single mother who would LOVE to be his W. <P>They drink & do drugs together. My H has used drugs only recreationally since I met him, but I never have. He said that was something he liked about me. Now some nights he doesn't come home. He claims he drank too much & spent the night on a friend's couch (OW's?). He also said sometimes when he feels he's had too much to drink, he uses meth. so he doesn't feel so drunk.<P>His family & "real" friends see what he's doing to himself & are very worried. As a result, he's avoiding them all & only spending time with OW & his drinking buddies. I'm trying to be understanding, but sometimes I literally feel like I'm losing my mind. I don't know how much more I can take.<P>When we actually talk about our situation, we both cry, he says he wants to work it out, thinks we can, asks me to hang in there just a little longer, & I believe him. He expresses feelings & is again the man I fell in love with. Then he starts drinking & becomes selfish, angry, & stays out all night.<P>I understand all your pain & am here for you. I wish there was some way we could get through to them - through the fog, alcohol, & drugs. I wish everyone the best of luck & the strength to endure this roller-coaster ride.<p>[This message has been edited by Berry (edited June 22, 2001).]

Lets try, how long are you separated? any children? My WS also is up there in years--age 55 and he is also involved with a girl--age 26. I was devastated at first thinking I could not compete with a young, big-boobed bimbo but I see it for what it is now. Two very needy people who do not have a clue as to the obstacles they could face as a couple. Problem is there will be much destruction and devastation on the road to reality. Check this out---my H is a paraplegic and this whole A thing is so bizarre. Shows you how powerful adultery can be....Wives leave their husbands when they are disabled in a majority of the cases so I find it hard to believe that a 26 yr old girl will be able to handle the problems that his diability involve. <P>He has mentioned a mid life crisis and he feels his life is slipping away. I feel sorry for the fact that he cannot seem to help himself but I will not let him pull me down, too. I do not want to take drugs to stay afloat and I do not want to have an affair to feel wanted. <P>I love this poem...hope it helps someone...I pass it on<P>MESSAGE IN A BOTTLE <BR>I can see you in there scared, hiding... <BR>drowning, alive but not alive <BR>dead but not dead <BR>somewhere in between <BR>I thought I could fish you out <BR>if you'd just grab the hook, <BR>I am learning that i can't <BR>I've been putting the blame on you <BR>the blame for my own misery <BR>you haven't caused it <BR>I have allowed you to compound it <BR>I've asked you to help me by helping yourself <BR>but I can't make you <BR>I can't make you do anything <BR>Not with love not with hatred <BR>or harsh words or emotional abuse <BR>not even by showing you how much pain <BR>i am in <BR>If I let myself fall because of you <BR>if I let my own spirit die because of you <BR>I am turning off my own light <BR>in a world that is already <BR>too dark <BR>All I can do is love myself first <BR>so that I might help you <BR>Even if I do love myself <BR>I still may not be able <BR>to help you <BR>But I can stand outside of your bottle <BR>and look in through the glass <BR>so you'll know I'm here <BR>I can send you a message <BR>a message in your bottle <BR>There is help out here <BR>there is help in there <BR>inside your bottle <BR>are the steps you need <BR>to climb out <BR>Twelve of them <BR>If you stand on the first one <BR>it is high enough to lift your head up <BR>out of the murk so that you can see me <BR>more clearly <BR>so that you can see the world <BR>more clearly <BR>If you decide to see it <BR>i know now that that decision <BR>is very clearly up to you <BR>I am out here <BR>I will leave my light on for you<P>BY HEATHER R. <P>I do not know where he is right now.....I can only image he is with OW. I do not know when he will get home so I appreciate that there is someone out there to talk to. <P>Thank you all for being there!!!!!!!

Hi Tossed Wave,<BR>Just read your thoughts; your comments are interesting.<BR>I share many of your feelings and sentiments. <P>My H is on the spectrum between Irresponsible abuse of alcohol and pre-alcoholism...<P>I do not believe that affair would have ever started if alcohol was not a factor in this equation. <P>I am just devastated that after a year of ambivalence since he started and stopped d. 2x, he now is proceeding.<P>Ow is alcoholic with 2 dwi convictions/they were in accident in his truck/she wanted him and planted idea of divorce/she who has been marr/div 3x. waht a winner and a prized possession! What a joke! Well, the pain and anger and emotional and financial devastation is not a Joke!<P>BAnkruptcy, foreclosure, and his defiance of a child support order are realities.<P>I still love my H and he knows it--but he doesn't care because he is being "true to himself" and now the ow is making him "happy!"<P>WEll, if the statistics are on our side, this affair will die a natural death..unfortunately, it appears that he is moving closer to becoming her FOURTH HUSBAND...and, one day, ow's annoyances will ouweigh whatever it is she provides --and then the glue will weaken, and the "romantic love" will disappear... and maybe, I will then begin to look safe for him to come back to...when, if, when, if, when, if..only time will tell...<P>For now, I just try to get through the pain one hour at a time and assure my children that I am here for them...and if their father makes "Elvis sighting appearances" after 15 months of almost total abstinence from wanting to see and be with them becuase of emotional attachment to ow, then, maybe that might be one way he will begin to find his way back...to his family, his wife, his home, his marriage...<BR>then, if that happens, he has a lot of making up to do to...and where will I be and how will our children feel. For now, they feel deeply rejected because of the manner in which he abandoned us twice...for what? a dwi alcoholic who is a loser...<P>Keep in touch...elo<P>

Berry--how can you take much more? do you have children?<BR>I know the anguish of waiting all night for a spouse to come home...I can't sleep and my heart races and you worry whether your spouse is dead or alive. Before the A, I feared a car accident resulting in death or an affair. Well we have had one tragic alcohol related accident and now the affair....so I wonder why I worry and still care. <P>I think the hardest part for me is the undecisiveness. He can't make a decision and cannot decide to leave. He does not seem to realize the major consequences of his actions/choices and then he can not do anything to change. We do the same as you guys do---we talk about it, he is very remorseful and then we cry and he admits he is screwed up and then it all starts all over again in two or three days. I fear this has all to do with the patterns of addiction and I am feeling that there has to be an intervention.<P>I can't image you putting up with much more...I know I can't and I don't seem to have it as bad as you. My prayers are with you.<P>I can't say your choice to have an A was good for anyone but I admire the fact that you stopped it when discovered. Do you go to Alanon? You must work that program or you will slip away into the abusers web and it will cause soul errosion that will be so deep. There are great principles and wisdom to live by in that program and it will teach you boundaries. We all need boundaries to protect ourselves.<P>Please continue to share, share, share...YOU ARE NOT ALONE<P>TW