new_beginning - <P>Thanks. I infer from your last post that you still lived with your H the entire time of the affair. That way, your H was able to SEE your demeanor at any time.<P>Unfortunately, my W has moved in with the sh*thead and I haven't seen her in months. If/when this affair fizzles (I pray soon dear Lord), she would probably go back to her brother's. Her pride would probably prevent her from contacting me. I will be the last to know in all likelihood.<P>I'm also concerned that since she is totally out of contact with just about everyone that loves her, if/when she crashes she may get herself into trouble. I've heard numerous accounts how the "crash" causes the betrayer to drop into a hole nearly as deep as the betrayed was only months before. I know that I almost lost it (I briefly had thoughts of suicide after she left me upon disclosure).<P>Any suggestions on how I can keep my "radar" on for any of the signs of the destabilization of the relationship?

Sorry double post!<p>[This message has been edited by Shattered1 (edited September 10, 1999).]

Dear Shattered,<BR>You aren't officially divorced yet, are you? Then she will have to contact you at some time. Tell her brother that you still love her and hope and pray the two of you will someday be reunited. He will probably let you know if she comes back to stay with him. <P>My relationship never went as far as you wifes because I ended it, knowing there was no future(both of us being married) and also because it was wrong. However, that was only the beginning of reconciliation with my H. This was all before I knew anything about Dr. Harley's principles and my husband does not come to this site so he did not follow any of the rules. <P>Anyway, my H was very, very angry. He had the right to be. Had he done what Dr. Harley recommended and tried to meet my emotional needs, I think I would have started feeling better sooner. Instead, I was in my marriage because of my kids and because it was the right thing to do. We have gone to counceling and things are improving but I would say that from my own experience, be prepared for her to be resentful towards you, in withdrawal and not really ready to get back into the marriage for awhile. However, if you start to meet her needs, I think slowly the love will begin to return. <BR>

Hi Bonny - <P>No, we are not officially dovorced yet. She just filed last week and here in MN my lawyer told me it takes about 3-4 months on average. I told him that I'd like to drag it out until at least the new year. He said that shouldn't be too much of a problem. My thought process is that by that time, 6 months will have elapsed. If by then she hasn't broken it off with this guy, then she probably never will (at least in a timeframe that I can handle). I also plan on being MUCH stronger emotionally by then so if the worst case happens, I'll be able to handle it.<P>Her brother and his wife already know how I feel. They are BIG proponents of the Harley principles as they had their issues at the beginning of this year and used the Harley techniques themselves. All three of us (me, BIL & SIL) understand what W is probably going through and what it will take to turn it around. I am fortunate enough to have them as in-laws and thank God that they support me through the Harley principles.<P>This waiting is untenable. I get so lonely; I have never felt so alone in my entire life. We have no children (except, of course, if you include cats - I have 2 --Hugo and Pugsley!)

<P>Alright, this is pretty straightforward. I'm replying to your first set of questions. To tell you the truth, I’m to busy (with at toddler pulling on my leg) to candy coat it, so here is the bottom line. I’m normally more flowery with my words, but at the moment I just want to reply and try and help quick.<P>1. Describe the addiction/fantasy aspect of the affair. <BR>I guess, like your wife, I had it pretty bad – at times I think I still do. I say that because I don’t believe my affair was all fantasy. I only believe there was fantasy as much as there is fantasy in any love relationship. I didn’t find it romantic to sneak around, I hated it. I desperately wanted to be in the “real world” with my OM. Many here insist that my affair was a fantasy, I don’t agree. As for the addiction, well I felt, and still do feel that there can be no greater addiction than love. Except for the fact that the relationship was an affair (and I do realize how huge of an exception that is) I can think of nothing I’d rather be “addicted” to. I wish I was as “addicted” to my H as I was/am to OM. I felt like I couldn't live w/o om, I felt as if he was perfect (even in his imprefection), I felt as if he was the half that made me whole, I felt like he was my perfect counterpart. Unfortunately, I still do. It is kind of hard to break an addiction when you a) don't believe it is bad for you, b) like the addiction c) don't see a happy alternative. <BR> <BR>2. How long did it last for you? The affair or the addiction? The affair - 1 year in regular contact, 1 ½ year more over long distance. If either of us let it, it would kick up again today. I’m in w/d now, and have been for about 2 months. It has not gotten easier. The fantasy/illusion – well since I’m not convinced that it is a fantasy, I suppose I’ll live with the memory and the feelings forever. But, I’ll live with them and my H. I am not leaving H for OM.<BR> <BR>3. Did you exhibit any bizarre or uncharacteristic behavior as the result of the addiction during your affair? If so what was it? Can you say “mood swings!” I’d swing from being elated (after seeing OM), to depressed (after not seeing him for a day or so), to anger at H because he wasn’t OM, to jubilance with H trying to hide missing H, to a sexual dynamo with H (out of guilt), to total rejection of H sexually (because he was not OM), and then back to depression again. I was a roller coaster! (glad that part’s over)<P>4. What else can we betrayeds expect - what is the normal progression of this fantasy/illusion?<BR>To tell you the truth, as a betrayer, I don’t even know what to expect next out of this whole process! I suppose you can expect the unexpected. You can expect your w to be a bit moody and unpredictable, and generally not herself. I can really only speak for myself, but in W/D I have been very depressed, hopeless, angry and apathetic. I’ve also been disappointed in H and angry with him as we are now looking at the problems that existed long before OM entered the picture. You can expect to be blamed (rightfully or wrongfully) for being a party in the creation of a relationship that was vulnerable to an affair. I’m not trying to be hurtful here, just direct. I blame my H for the void in our marriage (as much as I do myself) that opened the door to the affair (see profile for more details). I also believe that if you and W are committed to making things better in your marriage, you can expect hard work and <BR>success. <BR>Best of luck,<BR>FC<P><BR>

shattered, <P>actually my H moved out three weeks after disclosure, but not for long (although long enough that they held out $80 from his security deposit to clean the carpet! ) What a waste of money! <P>I gave the OM an ultimatum (sp?). I said stay with W or me. This is after my one sexual time with him. He wanted more time. I told my H what I'd said to the OM (I know, how cruel- more sad face )and basically kept him hanging for three weeks longer. OM couldn't leave her, I missed my H, and my H missed me, plus we couldn't afford to pay for two separate households, so my H moved back home and directly back into our marriage bed. I never again slept with the OM, but since I work with him, had to see him daily. Things were really bad for another month or so until I stopped talking to the OM. I was trying to keep him as a friend. NOT! Can't do it.<P>The road back to sanity is not easy. I was suicidal myself, was on meds like you, and saw the therapist alone before going with my H. I'd still go, H doesn't want to. <P>I guess what you'll be looking for is a complete change in attitude. She's a different person than she was before, so you'll be looking for signs of return to the W you used to know and love.<P>I wish you nothing but continued hope and peace in your life. It's neat how hard you're trying to understand. Just wonderful!

FC-<P>Thanks for the frank reply. I certainly hope that my W's affair is not like yours is/was. I could be wrong, but it seems that you very much still want to be with your OM...not with your H. I dont think my self-esteem could handle my wife being angry at me over her despair for her OM...that is IF she returns. I understand that I had a hand in creating the environment where the affair could start, but I will not take responsibility for her actions.<P>Unless you have experienced the complete and utter devastation that we betrayeds have experienced, you'll never know the depths to which self-esteem can sink. I never have walked in your shoes, and I certainly believe that witdrawal is difficult, but it just sucks that the betrayed must be strong THROUGHOUT the entire ordeal if the marriage even is to have a chance. At least the betrayers had a time where they were happy on cloud 9, even if it was just a fantasy for some. I understand that the price (withdrawal) is high, but for the betrayed, there is NO upside anywhere in the process. <P>I feel my wife hates me now...she sure acts like it. If she ever returns, I understand that I'm supposed to expect her to feel resentment toward me, while at the same time I must extend a loving heart to her. I'M AT THE END OF MY ROPE!! When do the betrayeds get some TLC for all the sh*t we've been through?? I can't take this anymore!!!

shattered,<P>please don't give up hope! I can understand being sick of it. I have been in your shoes too, because my H betrayed me 12 yrs. ago, and when I think of it today I STILL get pissed! <P>This process takes time, and that thing that none of us has enough of: patience.<P>If she doesn't return, you need to prepare for that too... but not yet!<P>Come here and vent and ask us anything you want... <P>It's safe here...<P>~Sheryl

Shattered,<BR>First things first. . . you are in NO WAY responsible for what your wife DID with the OM! What she did (and what I did) were choices that she made and she is responsible for her mistakes and her actions. She is also (as am I) to blame for the pain she caused regarding the affair. I am glad that you see that you were both responsible for the dilapidation in your marriage, however. Once again, I want to say that her affair was her choice (as was mine) and that you are most certainly the victim of her selfishness (as was my H of selfishness).<P>As for still wanting to be with OM and not H . . .well, it is a difficult one for me - a daily battle (if you read my profile it may help you understand how complicated it is). But, today, I am with H and committed to being here to see if we can work things out.<P>Finally, dear shattered, I am very sorry that your wife did this to you. My H had a brief affair (not as entangled as your W's or as my affair was) and I know how devastating it is. I know that it totally annihilates your self-esteem and causes you to question absolutely everything! I know how unfair it is. I know the feeling of not wanting to wake up and face the nightmare that your life has become. I know all too well. I also know that one can survive it. My H and I did it once, and I hope we will survive this one (though it is quite messy). I hope you and your W can make it too. If you don't, I know you will find your self-esteem again. I can tell from your posts that you are a very soul-full man who wants to love and be loved. <P>Best wishes,<BR>FC

new_beginning & FC - <P>Thanks again for your responses. My last post was made at work when I realized that i don't have any plans for the weekend. I became frustrated...forgive me if I sounded like I was angry at you or something.<P>I find that weekends are particularly tough considering that there is not much to focus on except this situation. You see, my life before disclosure revolved around my W...we are relatively new to the area so we haven't developed many friends. I continue to imagine her and this rich puke dining, dancing and then "doing it". I can actually taste bile if I let these thoughts get away from me.<P>FC, you are too kind. I thought I wasn't soulful after my wife told me that I wasn't her soulmate...he was. (I almost upchucked right there.) Your kind words of encouragement and reassurance that whatever the outcome I will not only survive but THRIVE is an inspiration.<P>NB & FC - question for you. You both said that each of your respective H's had prior affairs. Was revenge at all a motivator for your affairs you think? Or do you suppose it was merely coincidental? I tell you, the way I'm feeling tonight, I am really vulnerable to an affair myself. I pray that I have the constitution to resist temptation because I know how much that would complicate things.<P>Again, I can't tell you how much your words of encouragement and perspectives from the betrayer "side" really helps me. if it weren't for this site, Harley's principles and especially all of you "infidelity veterans", I would have cracked up long ago. My thanks to you again.

shattered,<P>I think you probably ARE vulnerable to an affair. My affair was recent, and my H told me LAST NIGHT that he went out last week WITHOUT his wedding ring to two bars just hoping that some woman would talk to him. Was revenge a motive for me? Maybe, I don't know. What's really strange is that the OM asked me the same question when the affair began. I told him no, I told my H no when he asked, but to be honest, maybe just a bit. Again though, I thought I was in love with the OM. Sometimes I think that we aren't meant to be with one person forever, and that hurts. It goes against everything I've ever believed. I'm hurting right now myself. My H dropped his little bombshell on me last night, and OM tried to talk to me today, to say he wonders if we made a mistake. I told him to stop it and leave me alone, but I tried to be kind because I've been so mean to him for weeks now. I guess after hearing my H say he was looking around I felt like I wanted someone to care. Geez... I sound and feel like an idiot. Affairs are serious business and there are no easy answers. If you want to avoid an affair you have to consciously (sp?) NOT HAVE ONE. Simple, but true. I can still remember the precise moment I knew I was going to do it, and I bet every betrayer can. Sorry, I guess I don't sound very uplifting tonight.

NB - <P>I'm so sorry to hear about what your H did last night. Keep in mind, however, that he did tell you about it...I think it's a big RED FLAG! My (novice) advice to you, go to him and tell him that you love him. He's just lashing out...if he told you then he's crying out for help; help that only YOU can provide. If you can, go to him and hold him and tell him over and ove that you love him. Even if you don't quite feel like it, remember that Harley says that you must fake it until you make it.<P>I must not become tempted. The biggest thing for me is the lack of sexual fulfillment (I'm a guy...what can I say?) The last time I made love with my wife was in May. We enjoyed a varied and frequent sex life, so this is VERY difficult for me. Please don't be offended but pleasuring myself is getting very old!

shattered, <P>not offended, don't worry. That's a really long time to go without. My H gets nuts after 3 days, so I can't imagine how you're feeling.<P>I'm sorry I dumped my problems on you. I feel like an idiot so often because I go back and forth, back and forth. I love my H, but I'm not in love with him... to... I am SO IN LOVE with him. I know the term fake it till ya make it and I've tried to get my H to do the same. I just spoke with my H (he works nights and is NEVER home, which was part of the problem) and told him to make a choice. Stay with me and try, or go. Who do I think I am, giving HIM ultimatums? (spelling, egad! ) I go from happy to sad, happy to sad. One of my co-workers told me today that I have helped her so much because she never understood the pain the OW feels. I was, uh, not happy with the label, but hey that's who I was. God. On the other hand, I'm doing the best I can to put my marriage back together. It isn't easy. That part you'll never forget. But it is WORTH it when it happens, don't you think??

NB - <P>You are NOT dumping your problems on me. I'm flattered that you tell me the things you do so that I might be able to offer you my opinion. I'm finding that giving opinions/advice is as rewarding as receiving meaningful replies to burning questions I have.<P>I have a lot of respect for you for trying to rebuild your marriage. Please keep your nose to the wheel (did I mix my metaphors there?) From what I read, the feelings will come back. Has your H read any of Harley's material?<P>I'm certainly no expert, but you might want to back off on the ultimatums (I think that is the right spelling NB). In the parlance of Harley, big lovebuster. You might want to instead try the "most important emotional needs" approach. Have you two filled out Harley's questionnaire? I haven't yet, but i've heard that it's pretty good.

shattered,<P>yes, we filled them out. Yes, we've read quite a bit of Harley's materials. My H lovebusts all over the place because he thinks he can - after all, I'm the bad guy this time. He stopped sharing the results with me right in the middle because he said he didn't want to go through all that. We'd done the love busting one and another one, an emotional needs survey. <P>Feeling very negative all the sudden and I DON'T LIKE IT A BIT! I'm an optomist, by nature, and H isn't. That's been part of our problem all along. I honestly (honestly!) don't know if we're gonna make it. I've been playing the fake it till ya make it game for about three weeks now, and he won't play along. I'm just tired, I think.<P>Thanks for listening. I'm really okay, and I will continue to FIGHT for what is right. I believe that is to be WITH MY H AND FAMILY. <P>Again, I really am sorry that you're going through all that you are and can still reach out to someone who cheated. That says something wonderful about you... you have the capacity to forgive your W. I hope she comes around soon and realizes it.

NB - <P>You are too kind. I get the ambivalent feelings too, I have to believe that they're normal. Please don't give up on your H. Just chalk it up to a bad day/week/month. I can tell you that he is feeling bad now and is just lashing out. Earlier in this thread I lamented about how, according to Harley, the betrayed must pick up the slack if there is to be any hope. I became irate at the thought that even if my wife returns, I'm going to have to eat sh*t for quite a while during her withdrawal and resentment stage. When do the betrayeds get their "day in the sun"?<P>I definately see why your H is acting the way he does. Projecting my W's return, I too might want to decompress by withdrawing...after all, my W abandoned me!<P>Don't give up hope NB. Please keep on course!

don't worry, shattered,<P>I haven't given up hope!<P>I guess I just expected my H to be better by now. Stupid, huh?<P>I'm hangin' - I am!! honest!<P>You too, okay??<P>

NB - <P>Yes, I'll stay the course...at least for now. Well, I'm going to turn in...I'm a morning person and my bedtime is 10PM. I like to read in bed for awhile to unwind. You have a good night - sleep well.

Yes, Shattered you are probably vulnerable to an affair. Mine was not consciously out of revenge, however I am sure it was part of it. After H's affair I didn't want to believe in fidelity. It was too painful to believe it was important to us because that meant I had to be vulnerable and trust him again. His affair just shattered everything I thought I believed in about him, about us, about fidelity and about marriage. Part of me lost respect for him and for our marriage and I think that opened the door to an affair. Also, I was hurting and very alone before I met OM. I had a small voice inside that said, "he did it to me, why not level the playing ground. He did it and we 'recovered' why not see if we can 'recover' again." Well, recovery from a short term affair (as H had) is a whole lot different from recovery from a 2+ year love affair that produced a child. Anyway, I suppose this is a long way of saying, yes. While I didn't intend to seek revenge, I think my H's affair was PART of why I had an affair (definately not the only reason and I'm not blaming him). In fact, my 2 best friends first response to learning of my affair was, "you never would have done this if H hadn't done it to you first." While not entirely true, H's affair sure did a lot of damage to our marriage and changed my feelings about affairs (in a very damaging way). Not that they became okay to have, but the entire foundation of our marital fidelity was altered (at least in my heart, temporarily). Sorry about the rambling, it is 5am where I live and I'm tired!

FC - <P>Thanks for the reply, it made a lot of sense. I think as I start to emerge from the depression and devastation to my self-esteem and venture outside again, I might really struggle with temptation. As I stated earlier, I'm very lonely and I, like most everyone, need affection, love and bluntly, sex. I just hope and pray that God can see me through this "in tact" and that I'm able to repel any thoughts of infidelity myself. Fortunately, I haven't had any opportunities, although that's largely due to my holing up in my house most of my free time.<P>I'm going to ask you to speculate now for me. I realize the danger in this line of questioning but I really need some reassurance. Given what you do know regarding my situation, and what you experienced from yours, how likely do you think it is that my W's affair will end? I'm not asking you whether you think she will return to me for you don't know the dynamics of our marriage but, I'd really like to hold out hope that this will end.