HF, doesn’t it torment you to come to this board? Even though I was the WS, it torments and angers me sometimes. Its painful to hear of all these sufferings. Going back to your original post about ‘fog’ and ‘fantasy’, I feel the same way. Although I admit for some it may well be the fog but it doesn’t necessarily apply to all. I think it’s something most BSs need to hold on to, it gives them hope and meaning to all this pain. It makes my insides churn when for example – the WS does or say something hurtful or just simply unacceptable by any stds and have to listen to others saying ‘don’t worry, that’s not him talking’ or ‘his deep in the fog’ or ‘just go on being nice to him’. Of course these words come from someone else who’s exactly in the same shoes. While being supportive, some of these words are delusive. I am not criticising Harley’s concepts, I think Plan A and Plan B are very sensible and are in principle practised everywhere since way before they had a name to it. But most of the time people are in Plan A for far too long. But it’s hard to let go, I know.<P>The other thing is, how can you compare or measure love of others? I know now, perhaps more than I knew then, that I really loved the other woman and given the chance I could easily fall back in love with her again. I feel ok now, 5 mths ago, when it first ended, I was almost inhuman, as if I couldn’t function correctly, kept breaking down in tears and practically felt dead. But because my kids, I had to pull myself together. With my W, my feelings haven’t changed much, that feeling I had for her 5 to 6 years ago is officially dead and once again I am more convinced now than before. About reality (in the version in which most of you see it), I wanted so much to share it with OW. I wanted for her to meet my kids, get along with them as well as the rest of the members of my family. I even wanted my W to meet her. Maybe my circumstances were different but none of you can convince me that what I had was merely a fantasy. It was very REAL. But here I am, this is the choice I made. It wasn’t about love, it wasn’t a realisation of what I did wrong, it was out of duty. This is my situation. Can my W ask for more? This is all I can give at the moment. <BR>

PF:<P>What do you owe your wife? Are you sure you are out of the fog?<P>You returned out of obligation?<P>Damned right she has the right to expect more. You are lamenting and suffering pain (see my response above): YOU inflicted that pain on yourself by indulging YOUR self-gratification ... conversely, YOU and the OW inflicted pain on your W.<P>So don't return "out of obligation" and then do nothing to improve the marriage. Sounds like you lost out on five months of applying Dr. Harley's methods. All is not lost however, you can start today.<P>If you are not willing to give it 100-percent, you are inflicting an even crueler, longer-term pain on your wife. All you have to give? Well, reach deep then, my man, and find that deeper, inner reserve. There is a saying: fish or cut bait.<P>Sorry if this sounds harsh, but as a former BS and WS, I have seen both sides. And as I stated above, my deepest pain is the knowledge of the pain I inflicted on my wife. So, to her I have an obligation and duty: to give the salvation and restoration of our marriage my 100-percent best shot. For her. Not for the kids, not for me ... but for her (well, OK, I do derive satisfaction in that striving: a redemption, if you will).<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

STL :<P>I have pushed myself to try, I have had no-contact, I am here and I think that’s a start. Would the still WSs to most of the BSs on this board even be here? When it first ended, I never posted, only read because I knew I’d be just too bias. I was very angry & would resist any advice totally at all expense. I just read and read the stuff in here. Believe it or not, I tried to put some of it in practice. We’ve talked to the cows come home too but there you go here I am. <P>I am trying to figure out now, what path should I take, what alternatives do I have. I am well aware though that 5 mths is too short a period to see any progress. I am searching inside. While some of the WSs here profess to still love their BSs, I do not. Tell me when does a marriage end? Not looking for till death or until you sign the divorce papers answers here. I was a BS too at one point, but we reconciled then because me and her wanted to. I don’t get that desire now, it’s not because I don’t want to loose her. It’s because she and the kids desperately wants it. Why? I have changed, I was separated for over 2 years, I was in Plan B before I met OW. Marriage and rebuilding was not something I toyed with in that period, I concentrated on a new life. Except for my children, I wasn’t hanging on to anything, I didn’t need to, I was happy, I was contented. We hardly argued in that period, there was no need toThat’s why it is so difficult for me. I feel as if its too late to save me and her. But something inside me screams I need to try for the kids. Is this still the fog?<BR>

<<< You talk about "fantasy" and "real life" - Have you ANY Idea what an affair out in the open does to you?????? - >>>><P>Umm, I think most of us do. The "fantasy" is what sets in in an undiscovered affair. Even when an affair is doscovered it can still continue on in secret moments between the affair partners. In our case the "fantasy" started to crumble in a very short time after my H moved in with her (which he lied about). "Buyers remorse" set in very quickly when he realized his new toy wasn't at all what he expected (and nothing like the fantasy). Once he had to deal with her on a day to day basis she wasn't so fun anymore. Then when he ended the relationship she decided to make it her life's mission to make our lives (mostly MY life) a living hell. H's initial fantasy became our worst nightmare.

HumbleFish,<P>I promissed you a reply. You asked so many questions that I'm going to make several posts here in reply. Handle one or two at a time between doing dinner, etc. I got, well a little distracted last night.<P>You asked what is the Fog. <P>I would define the WS’s fog as follows: <P>The WS is not behaving in a manner consistent with the person the BS knows them to be. And very importantly they are not acting in a manner consistent with whom they have represented themselves to be in the past. The inconsistent behavior is called the “Fog”. For the most part, when one marries, they choose a spouse whom they believe has a certain set of moral values, beliefs and behaviors. When the WS starts behaving in a manner that goes against everything the WS themselves said they believed in, it is called the “Fog”. <P>For some period of time prior to the affair (some times for years and years) a husband tells his wife that he loves her more then life itself and that he pledges his love to her until death do them part. He tells her that they are soul mates and that he has never known a love like theirs and knows he could never find another love like this one. (You know, like the things the MM tell the OW, too). He behaves this way for years. For years the WS lives his life according to strong convictions. And then one day the BS suddenly finds out that he was been telling someone else that he loves them too. He has been living in a manner totally out of the character for the man his wife knew him to be. The BS sees her husband as being in a FOG. As being someone other then the man she married. <P>And of course this holds true if the WS is a woman too.<P><BR>Now I see the Fog for the OP this way.<P>The OW WILLINGLY enters into a relationship that she knows is not legitimate. She knows that the MM is not truly available. He tells her things like he loves her more than life itself and that he pledges his love to her until death do them part. He tells her that they are soul mates and that he has never known a love like theirs and knows he could never find another love like this one. (You know, like the things the MM tells his wife too). <P>The OW somehow convinces herself that her love and the MM’s love for her is more real than the love that he and his wife have shared. She convinces herself that she is the special one that the MM will not cheat on and will not lie to. That is her fog. The OW chooses to believe in this fantasy.<P>And then the affair’s fog.<P>The affair exists in a fog because both the MM and the OW believe that their sexual attraction and emotional attraction to each other is true love far beyond anything ever experienced in this world by anyone else. They forget that love, in its early stages is exciting, but that true love grows over time with nurturing and shared experiences. They come to believe that their love is more important then anything and anyone else in this world. They forget that love is fragile and it seldom flourishes on a foundation of deceit, treachery and hurt. That is the fog of the affair.<P>RE: like It was all a ”fog” and that we will all get passed it - So I listen!!!!! - and I try to believe you!!! - But after over a year I still ”hope” It’s still just a fog????<P>You have not been really tried to get over your MM for a year. I say that because you saw him many times over the last year. You will not be over him until you have not seen or talked to him for a year. That is the time it takes your body to stop responding to him with “love” chemicals every time you see him or hear his voice. There is no magic to this. It is simple chemistry.<P>Time will heal your pain. A pain you choose for yourself. Nurture youself, stay busy search your soul and grow during this time.<P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Humblefish,<P>I just have a quick note to answer a q you asked about the "fantasy" of an affair.<BR>Nobody denies that the OW has a normal life with bills to pay a job, family problems and whatnot. What is meant when it is said the affair is a fantasy is that the WS does not share in this in the same way he does with his wife.<BR>The OW's bills are not his concern and if he does "help her out a bit" it places him in the "hero" light - kinda like a knight in shining armour if you know what I mean. It's not expected of him or taken for granted as he may perceive things to be at home.<BR>I hope this sheds a little light on this for you.<P>God Bless and Take Care<BR><P>------------------<BR>Love and Prayers<BR>Nicole

PF:<P>Partially in the fog. The reason you feel as you do, is that your love bank is depleted, as is your wife's. That is what Harley's rules of care, of time, of protection, and of honesty are about. Combine those concepts with fulfilling emotional needs, and ka-ching go the love units depositing. Also read Gregory Godek's book 1001 Ways to Be Romantic. Ka-ching. As he states: love is an emotion; romance is a physical manifestation. There are lots of options left to you still. Explore them.<P>Until you give it that 100-percent, you cannot honestly make the claims you are making: those are fog tendrils that remain.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Now before I start my reply - I HAVE not spellchecked!!!!! so sorry if I'm not doing well on my English!!!! - And I am not drunk :)<P>Z : couldn't take your Q's with my replys - sorry, I have a alow modem - It couldn't handle a toooooo long post puuuuhhhhh - but I think you know what you wrote ....<P><BR>Hi Z - thank you for your reply - <P>And thanks to everyone else that replied!!! - much food for thought!!!!<P>And *wink* back on all the ”European remarks” - Made me laugh - no offence at ALL! - Thanks H for explaining the PM/AM thing :)<P>As for the ”fantasy/fog” it is all a real tough thing. But I have learned here that what you//all on this board are talking about is the ”Harley-guys” interpretation of the above things. Perhaps that is what led me astray in all my questions. I took the words as the wore ”fanyasy - fog” and didnt really understand that they are a part of the MB language. You know a word can be interpretated in a million ways depending on who reads it and what they put in it. Fantasy and fog are as blurry words that you can get - UNLESS you see it through the eyes od MB’language. I have understood that now.<P>Just to be a bit on the philsospical path - aren’t we all in some kind of ”Fog” even though it doesn’t concern ”affairs” - I think it’s a bit of a human nature to ”fog in” sometime. Perhaps I’m wrong.<P>I’m probably still so much inlove ...Hmmmm......I mean ”infogged” so I can not see straight - even though I try. So I’m so sorry that I don’t buy the whole consept but as much as you make sence to me don’t I at least make a tiny sence to you? Or is everything I say ”fogged” so to say?.<P>OK - to be specific - Z (Hmmm Z ...sorry for taking your example - but it was a good examle you gave ....)<P><BR>WS’s fog: <P>My reply:<P>I have no doubght at all that the H loves his W - but you are saying that a person can not change - or more correctly that once a person feels something for another person those feelings can never change?<P>I as I said have never been married but I have lived together with 2 men. the last guy that I lived together is my best friend today. We meet once or twice a week we have dinner we go to the woods and look at birds (his hobby:) - we chat and get along grate - NO attraction more then friends and we split up 9 years ago. WE are friends - just friends!. And yes once back then we thought that it would be WE forever and we pronounsed our unduying love to one another just as you state above - but we grew apart - and we desided that we wore better of as friends as lovers. - Is that soooo strange? - Or are you trying to tell me that just because we didn’t get married we didn’t promise eachother out love at the time?<P>This is what buggs me about marriage (and i’m not alone on this - people put to much on the ”paper” so to say - It’s like when you say yes in church or in court (not everyone is religious) - you all of a sudden OWN the other person. That is not love - you can not own another person.<P>Some of you speake in anologies like ”would I steal your car or your house or you whatever” - all of those things are material - tou can never own a person neither can you steal a person - human beings are not things to own or steal - Just my opinion! - I won’t go into a philosophical mood today and start another debate - even though my fingers are itching toooooo...... <P><BR>OP's fog:<P>My reply:<P>Now - here i’m bound to agree with you Z <P>Although I have to say in my iniminy defence that I did beleive him when hie told his W and his family that he was getting a divorce and even made it open to his collagues at work - asking them if they knew of any free appartments - I bought it - I beleived it - Major FOG - OK - I perhaps can see it now - but I will nor argue with you on this point.<P><BR>So for the last one:<P>”<BR>And then the affair’s fog:<BR>My reply:<P>Can’t completely agree there. I agree to the point where we kind of wore ”we against the world - thing” - But when that passed after as you call it D-day - we struggled like hell. That was what I was trying to say that It’s not just merry-go-lucky - we live in a fantasy world. No we had to deal with all the outside parties. He more then me. Always questionned not only by his W but with his btother his brothers W his parents - everyone telling him he was destroying his life ...etc..etc...- and of course I was the big devil (you have no Idea what stories they manufacured about me - If I was to beleive them myself I would kill myself) - he had to deal with himself and his turmoilt and protect me at the same time. (Protect me - because they wore all talking behind my back and they made a chicken out of a feather). This almost killed us. We broke uo of course (officially) but we grew stronger on a friendship at first level and then back again..... - Then you know the storry - It didn’t end now did it - well now it has for a week and counting - GOD give me streanght!!!!!....<P>I know love in the early stages - I have been inlove before - and so has he. I beleive I know what love is but I also know how it is to feel ”forbiden love” - perhaps I’ll burn somewhere in the eyes of some - but I doubght it. I have my hell right here and right now.<P>Not only Love but life is more fragile then we think Z!<P>I’m happy for you - I really am!!! - both for you and STL (was that ”Saturday Night Live” *LOL* - read someone thought about that everytime he read your name - Made me LOL - Keep those roses blooming ;)<P>Over and out :)<BR>HF<P>___________________________________________________________<P>....And thus the native hue of resolution<BR>Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought....<P> - Shakespeare’s Hamlet -