This'll probably be lengthy again. That's why I don't post much anymore, they always are! LOL Oh, well, you don't have to read it all.<P>Nahhh....I'm nothing special. And I learned this could be done from role models here....Kat1, Samantha, SHA, tons and tons, I just can't remember the names. In fact, I learned that that's HOW it was done! You're right tho. There aren't as many now. It seems folks quit a lot faster. It's so strange you should say it seems like if doesn't often work. When I lurked here, one of the very FIRST things I learned, hearing it from posters over and over again, is that, BS or WS, most of the time you MUST be prepared to do the bulk of the work on your own for a while. Go figure.<P>I guess I figure from your post that you don't think my advice is applicable to you. That's ok. But I'm talking one more time. (I know, I know, you're now thinking "Won't this crazy woman EVER shut up! )<P>If you don't know what's wrong, you find out. To tell you the truth, I'm not particularly fond of the EN questionaires. I filled one out a couple of years ago. I looked at it while Robert was gone adn realized I chosen an order I wanted, not one that was real for me. So I did it again. As I grew and became a little better person, I review this stuff in the last year or so. It's way off base. I realized from friends doing it that they reacted much the same way. It's hard to be honest with yourself if one or more of your needs seems "shallow". How could you be such a person? What would your spouse think? So they fudge it - for themselves as much as others.<P>Honestly, Calla, I think you can discover much more by observing, TRULY listening, to the feelings behind the words even more than the words and examining your life on your own. I know if I had listened to Robert and did what HE said, I wouldn't be as happy now, with or without him.<P>I agree with you about children. My daughter is the greatest blessing of my life. I cannot imagine what these last 17 years would have been like without her. But with blessings come sacrifices. Just, to us, we get so much joy and pleasure from being mothers, it doesn't FEEL like a sacrifice. Maybe, for those who feel negatively, like your hubby, there was more sacrifice than joy somehow. Perhaps he caused it through his behavior. Perhaps he didn't know any better. Who knows. Maybe he needs someone to show him the joy. <P>Or maybe, just maybe it's a crock. When Robert left me, he sat me down and said "I want more children and you're too old to give them to me." Well, I'm not and I wasn't, but that was his thing. He was adamant. He told me that Kristin didn't love him, had never loved him and would never love him and he didn't want to be around anymore. Now, for years, these two were joined at the hip. She was, without a doubt, daddy's little girl and his princess. He told his family the same thing and they looked at him as if he were crazy! He hardly ever called her or spoke to her while he was gone....I mean not even once a month. His angel. He didn't love her, she didn't love him, that was it. But he wanted another one?<P>Once he came home, he was still in healing mode. And he hated children. Not her, all of a sudden she was wonderful again, of course, but all other children. Huh? This man is a child magnet! Always has been. He's like a pole with neices and nephews hanging from every limb. And now he's "going off". Children are a pain. I certainly never want another one. Too much work. Tie you down. Can't live life. What a CHANGE in 7 months, huh? And Calla, he's just now getting past that part. He's just now learning to sometimes appreciate the little ones again (not Kristin, after just a bit, they were once again joined at the hip). And the venom still pours every now and then when he's tired and a little one's getting on his nerves. But mostly, I see the love for them again.<P>Healing takes so very many paths. And the pain comes out in so very many ways. For us and for our spouses.<P>When I told you to stop obsessing, I just meant that what was coming out of his mouth was probably not the truth....not the whole truth anyway. You mustn't let his words determine your actions or your feelings about yourself. "For fatter or thinner"??? LOL Good, get the anger out. Maybe I should have said for younger or older, huh? I sure got a thousand "old" comments along the way. (I'm not 23, but I'm not an old hag either - quite honestly my hubby says I'm cute as a button! See what I mean.) You're smarter than that. You are capable, even in your pain, to see beyond the words.<P>You've proven my point when you said that you told him over and over again what was bothering you.....and he didn't hear you. Or think it was important. Wonder what you didn't hear. I only say that 'cause I've been there and I've learned so much that I could have done differently as well. That didn't CAUSE Robert's affair, he made that choice, but I helped break down the marriage as surely as he did. Without meaning to. While doing what I thought was my best.<P>I'm sorry you guys don't like each other anymore. I think that's reasonable. Heck, Robert told me "You have no idea how many times I wished you'd die in an accident so that I could be released from these pits of hell!" Oh, and, "You've ruined my life for all these years, I'm NOT going to let you ruin it anymore." How's that for not being fond of someone????? I wasn't crazy about him for a while either, I must confess. I thought my wonderful husband had permanent brain damage from his alien abduction. Thank heavens I was wrong.<P>Calla, I'm not anything special. What I tried my best to do was to look deep inside myself and become the person I wanted to be. I plan A'd and tried to make my husband happy, but there were boundaries and I didn't really sacrifice myself or my values to do it. But that doesn't mean I was selfish either. I was becomnig the person I wanted to be. Still am. It's a wonderful balance and it's worth the effort. For yourself.<P>Only you can decide what's best for you. I would never presume to tell you otherwise. I've read your posts. Even as a mostly lurker these days, I take a day a week or so to read posts, especially if I'm gonna respond. I can see how much you've hurt. I understand how cruel your H can be and how deeply it cuts. I've heard cruel things here too in the past. But I also know that much of it here was simply pain and confusion. And once I realized that, it didn't hurt quite so much and I was able to carry on.<P>For me, and only 'cause it was best for me, I tried to be a better person. I forgave, loved, trusted, respected, and believed in long before I had reason to. And he did the things he should do to earn that AFTER the fact. It happens that way sometimes....a lot of times, actually.<P>You guys decide for you. I just took the time to write 'cause I hate to see you make life altering decisions when you're both so obviously in pain. It may not be your best decision.<P>I wish you much peace. and I'll try not to write any more lengthy posts! (Hush, NB, or NY, or whoever you are now! )<P>Love,<P>lori<p>[This message has been edited by lostva (edited July 02, 2001).]

Calla,<P>First, please do listen to Lori. She is unique in that she is able to articulate so well what she did, how she thought, and what it all means. BUT she is not unique in terms of people who make it work out. <P>If you marriage is to work, you have to see the good things and work on them. Lori did that. You have to minimize the the bad things; categorize them, yes, understand them, yes, work on them, yes, focus on them, no. She did that. Lori, is the poster girl around here because she understood the basis of the EN questionaire, it is to get you to think, not follow it slavishly. It is to get you to look at the other person as a hurt individual, no matter whether you are WS or BS.<P>Calla, I think you have slighty misunderstood what I have said to you, and the one that concerns me the most is the children issue. You asked about why men don't respond as many women do to the presence of children. I responded honestly, Lori responded honestly, and if you look we are saying the same things.<P>If there weakness in a marriage children don't heal them, you and your H must. Children bring on demands for women as well. Have you really read these boards, and female magazine and seen how much gripping there is from females about diapers, feedings, and generally raising children? How it is H's fault because he doesn't help as much as SHE thinks he should?<P>Does that give you a good picture of motherhood? Well, just as I was explaining to you how men see children and how it does represent the change in a marriage, it doesn't mean that children aren't worth while or rewarding to a man. They are. Men know as do women, that their children are their legacy to the world and the legacy is largely dependent on the type of job we do raising them.<P>They are a gift Calla, almost everyone realizes that. Your H realizes it as do you. But they can cost a marriage if the individuals in the marriage don't pay attention to each other. <P>Calla, you can make a hugh difference in your marriage, focus on the good things, rejoice in them, and talk to your H even if he isn't talking with you.<P>Calla, listen to Lori.<P>God Bless,<P>JL