Sheryl,<P>It's ok, really! I'm not mad at anyone.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nyneve:<BR><B><BR>It is NEVER my intention to belittle someone's emotional need. Refusing to take a particular need seriously being tantamount to abuse? I'm not sure I agree, but I can agree to disagree on that one.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>I said this poorly, what I really had in mind was belittling the way another feels about things. My underlying emotion was probably a reaction to other things my wife has said, rather than so much about this thread. OTOH, if the shoe fits re the way anyone is treating their spouse...<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>See, I guess I just happen to take issue with certain of the EN's that Harley has listed; including, I might add the financial support need.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well, taken to extreme, such as marrying solely for money, it would seem to be a concept difficult to support. I think some balance in our thinking is key here. To some degree I think it involuntary, though. I think it would be shortsighted to not love someone just because they weren't wealthy, but OTOH someone who didn't care enough about their spouse to try to address their concerns about the need for support would risk a major loss of admiration from their spouse.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Steve, </B>you will be horrified to know (and possibly angry too) that I am sick about the idea that your W is losing weight <B>for you</B>.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well, I don't really think it's primarily for me, it was a one time comment. I had gotten accustomed earlier in my marriage to the idea that if I expressed attraction or enjoyed seeing her nude, at a time when she felt overweight, my attention would be angily rejected. I was pleased that we had gone from anger if she thought I was looking at her to where she had both enough self-acceptance and concern for me that she wanted to lose weight for us both. Maybe that clarifies things.<P>Bottom line is to not do things just for ourself or just for our partner. POJA says we should negotiate to arrive a decisions and lifestyles which are good for both. This necessary involves a willingness to consider your partner's needs and perspectives at least potentially as valid as your own. To do otherwise risks indulging in disrespectful judgments.<P>Keep in mind that attractive spouse, like other ENs, is subjective. All don't have the same body type or desire the same body type in their spouse. The intent was not to say all women must look like models. OTOH rejecting the concept out of hand won't make the validity go away. We don't make lifestyle choices just to please our partner or ourself, we POJA to make things better for both, which should eliminate resentment. Well, that's the theory and what I'm shooting for, anyway.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I am in my second marriage. So, maybe that makes me unable to grasp the concepts. (Is that what you meant, Steve?)<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Heavens no!<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I am sorry for the pain my words have obviously caused some people. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>All your words or anyone else's did was help me get in touch with things I was already feeling. I'm someone who grew up almost unaware of my feelings due to FOO patterns. Now I'm learning to both feel and express them, in person and here as well. I don't, however, wish to do so at the expense of others.<P><B>Sheryl</B>, nothing I wrote was intended to be personal or to denigrate your opinion or anyone else's. I just felt strongly, as you do, but with a different opinion.<P>I hope you don't really go away mad or sad. We really do like you whether we agree about everything or not .<P>Steve<P>[This message has been edited by StillHers (edited June 30, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by StillHers (edited June 30, 2001).]

Thanks Steve.<P>Does that count as posting?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nyneve:<BR><B><BR>Does that count as posting?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I won't tell anyone if you don't .<P>Steve<BR>

This is an interesting discussion. And I think it comes down to this: There are many reasons why we fall in love with a person and many reasons why affairs happen.<P>Emotional needs are definitely different from physical needs. We cannot survive if our needs for food, water, shelter, etc. are not met. We CAN 'survive' if none our emotional needs are not met, but we will not be happy or fulfilled. The word "need" is very much relative to its adjective in this case...<P>Communicating the issues that make us feel <B>badly</B> in our marriages and respecting that communication process is really what it's about. Studies have shown that virtually ALL happily married couples list something like 10 <I><B>irreconcilable differences</B>!</I> These are issues that they <I>cannot and never intend to try to agree on</I>. The key is in how they deal with those differences.<P>I bring this up because I think that all emotional needs are valid to a point. If a person says "I had an affair because you are fat" and truly MEANS those words, then I believe that person is truly a shallow and selfish individual and probably isn't worth the heartache. However, most of the time if those words or similar ones are said, the real meaning is something more like "I had an affair because ... well, because I worry about your health, and your weight was a health problem. When you reacted with such anger whenever I would bring it up, no matter what the message was I was trying to convey, I felt as if you didn't respect yourself or me, and it made me feel distant toward you. The OP came into my life when I was feeling as if you didn't love me enough to stay healthy."<P>What does it tell your spouse if you don't take the time to dress nicely when you are seen in public with him? Honestly, this happened to me during my husband's affair, and it hurt like someone stabbed me with a knife. He would come home from work, change from his work clothes, take a shower, dress up all nice, put on cologne and go out with his "friends"... but when he went out with me, he would wear the dirty work clothes. If he did put on cologne, it was a kind that gave me a headache and smelled like bug spray to me - I had told him that and he still put it on. What message do you think he conveyed to me? "I don't care what you want, I don't care what you think and I don't care what you feel. I don't respect you as much as I respect my friends and I will treat you disrespectfully if I so choose." Of course, that was at the height of the affair, so I understand that he may even have been subconsciously TRYING to convey that message. But ... it makes it easier to see how the things I did in the marriage damaged it badly.<P>It is not so much that there is a need for an attractive spouse, I don't think - I believe it is more that there is a need to feel cared about and respected. As so many "relationship" books point out, people fall in love NOT so much because of how they feel about <I>you</I>, but because of how they feel about <I>themselves</I> when they are with you.<P>It all boils down to one thing: <I>how you feel about yourself.</I> If you respect yourself, others will respect you... if you love yourself, others will love you.<P>Of course, there ARE people who are shallow enough to think that we should look exactly like THEY think we should look and will discard us if we do not. But I'm betting that they are far fewer than we might imagine. And I'm betting that those people do not TRULY feel good about themselves.<BR><P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Nyneve<P>I am SeenTheLight’s wife. He and I discussed at length the issue in this thread so I know where he is coming from. He’s over there sleeping right now so I’m going to respond to the following.<P>RE: You and STL obviously agree, and support each other, and that is great. You are both here, on FIRST MARRIAGES. I am not. I am in my second marriage. So, maybe that makes me unable to grasp the concepts. (Is that what you meant, Steve?)<P>STL and I are both in our third marriage not first. His first two wives left him for other men and “alternate” life styles. My first two husbands were physically and emotionally abusive. STL is very much aware of the problems that occur in marriages when emotional needs are not met.<P>The point here is that a physically attractive spouse is a need for all people. The degree of that need and the definition of “attractive” differ for each person. It is a simple fact of life. You and I may not like that many men prefer women who look like 12 year olds with boobs but that is a fact of today’s culture. (I say 12 year old here because most of those very sexy models you see on the front of magazines like Cosmopolitan are 12 and 13 years olds. <P>They have been painted and tucked and taped into position so that they look very good and provocative. But they are children.) Most women cannot live up to this standard. <P>Heck most men cannot live up to maintaining the body had as teens or in their early 20’s. <P>STL is not saying that he thinks it is right to loose love for a spouse because of weight gain. He is agreeing with the point that if a person says that attractive to them means slender and attractiveness is very high on their emotional needs list, then by golly their spouse should pay attention to it. <P>If a wife is meeting all of their husband’s emotional needs, then, even if weight is important will probably be able to look past a weight gain at least for a time long enough for their spouse to learn how to loose it. But if the other needs are not being met, the most obvious one is going to become the center of attention. <P>We can argue all day about what causes weight gain, whether or not people who gain weight are lazy, depressed, etc etc. Research is proving more and more every day that it has less to do with psychological reasons then it does with physical reasons… like the bodies over production of insulin, vitamin & mineral deficiencies, brain seratonin (SP) and dopamine levels, etc etc. No one is going to win this argument. <P>The truth is that some people have a very high emotional need for spouse to be slender. And it is not only men. I know women who feel this way too.<P>And yes it is abuse to not meet a spouse’s emotional needs. That is what emotional abuse is. If a spouse does not meet another’s needs they are neglecting that spouse… neglect is abuse. Sometimes we would prefer that our spouses prioritize their needs differently. But that is not our choice. We have to accept our spouse’s feelings and needs. Not second-guess and discount them.<P>And no.. I am not a perfect size 6 here preaching. <P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Wow...obviously there are some strong feelings out there on both sides of the weight/physical attractiveness issue. I sense that it's an issue that we'll never reach a consensus on.<P>In my own situation, I don't know what to say anymore. I do have a confession to make, though: As dunZ suspected, I do still have some contact with OM at my job, since we both still work there. I realize this is against the Harley principals for ending the affair. But there again, with the prospect of separation looming, I can't go quitting a good job when I may need to begin supporting myself at any moment. Sure, I can look for another job, and I have been. But no prospects yet...not a good job market right now.<P>In going back and reading my journals (I've kept journals for years, great tool against revisionist history) I realize that our declining sex life was a problem WAY back...it was slacking off before we were even married. Although at that point, it wasn't bad enough that I ever suspected it would become a serious problem. Following is an actual excerpt from my journal, just two months before we got married:<P>"I wish (H) could be more interested in sex. Some mornings I wake up wanting it so much that it's all I can think about. He doesn't want it as often, which seems odd to me. Have I become so ordinary or uninspiring to him, or is he not craving sex for some other reason? I can't ask him about it, because he always takes it as an insult and gets defensive."<P>I don't think I mentioned this in my other thread, but the evening of our conversation, my H admitted that his loss of attraction to me started that far back--before the wedding. And it just got worse. Between the time we began dating and the time we married (three year span), I had gained probably 10 to 12 pounds. I guess I had already tipped his acceptable weight threshold even then, before pregancy and thyroid issues complicated matters. His admission and my journal entries both seem to confirm it.<P>dunZ, No, H and I don't work out together, I do it on my own and so does he. I run several times a week, he lifts weights. I've gone down almost two sizes since all this began, but I realize I have further to go before I'm the size I was back when my H loved me. He doesn't want to exercise with me. He doesn't want to spend time alone with me. He won't even participate in family activities with our son. <P>I realize I have put a lot of blame on him. I know I decided to have the affair, but I feel angry because I feel that he could have prevented it had he responded when I told him I needed more love and affection. He couldn't though, because he didn't feel it enough to give it to me. Harley doctrine apparently says I can't blame him for that...I wasn't meeting his need, so therefore how could he meet mine?<P>If Im honest with myself and with all of you, I feel (especially in the last couple of weeks) that sometimes I wish he would actually go ahead and move out. He hasn't once said ONE THING to tell me that he values our marriage or feels like it's worth working for. This just kills me. I can understand him being angry/hurt/betrayed etc, but he won't even say our marriage is (or was) even worth the effort necessary to save it.<P>The OM in my situation not only accepted me for what I looked like, but was actually drawn to some of the very features (full hips, etc) that my H finds so distasteful! It's very hard to give that up: being loved/admired as I am without having to radically alter my physical being to be accepted. I don't know if any of you can appreciate that or not. When I was with OM, for the first time in soooo long, I felt comfortable with my body, not feeling like I had to hide or cover anything up. I felt feminine, desirable, and beautiful. He made me feel that way. I can't tell you what power that has to make me happy...it's tremendous. I fear that my H might never be able to feel the way about me that OM did. H dated a bunch of skinny models before me. I feel that's the only physique that really inspires desire in him.<P>Some of you may disagree, but i don't think I'm all "foggy" over the OM. I don't think he's perfect, I don't think we wouldn't have problems, I don't suffer from the blinding "soulmates destined by fate" illusions that so many WSs seem to feel. OM is as human and imperfect as my H (and me, for that matter)...but...he liked me for who I am!!! Not who I was or who I might be someday, but who I am NOW.<P>My H and I have a long shared history. We've seen each other through deaths in the family, unemployment, bailing out of debt, and all manner of large and small successes and failures in the life that we built together. I will always know and believe that once, he loved me absolutely. I remember it, I remember how I felt and how happy we were. But those times are gone now, and I seem to be the only one interested in bringing them back.<P>And everyday that I look at the phone and pick it up to call OM and put it back down instead, or everytime I stop myself from driving to his house, I wonder why I'm doing this. Why am I depriving myself of happiness when my H doesn't want me anyway? This is so hard. "Doing the right thing" doesn't even help to make me feel better these days. Do I wallow in self pity? Yeah, I guess some days, I do. Is it so wrong to want to be loved???<P>calla

Zorweb,<P>I'm not really here <P>Thanks for coming back and explaining -- even though I honestly did understand where your hubby was coming from. <P>Heck, I understand where most folks are coming from... <P>Listen, I've said this before, but hey, I'm a repeater: My ex is drop-dead gorgeous... he always was. Did I appreciate it? Heck ya. But... and this is the point... when he gained some weight, or lost some weight, or lost some hair, I **still** thought he was gorgeous, because I saw BENEATH his exterior. When we first separated, he lost a LOT of weight: about 25 pounds, and on his already-slim body he looked ill -- like Rock Hudson, the aids years. Honestly... he looked very sick. Everyone said so. But, to me, he was still beautiful to look at -- it was his insides that were ugly. If his looks and good sex were enough, we'd still be married. But it wasn't, obviously. Two big needs, wouldn't you say?<P>My current H is completely adorable to look at... a real cutie-pie... a teddy bear with a light inside... a LIGHT inside... and that's what I love about him... he's a GOOD, MORAL, BEAUTIFUL PERSON who has NEVER even cheated on his taxes, let alone a spouse. He's shown me that I am worthy of love ~~ I'd forgotten.<P>There is NOTHING to compare to that.<P>So, I guess what we're ALL trying to say is that it is about a combination of emotional needs that WE need to have met (us and our spouses) and that we need to respect those needs.<P>How's that?<p>[This message has been edited by Nyneve (edited July 01, 2001).]

Nyneve<P>You are so right.<P>You, and all of us, are worthy of love. Some people, my XH being one of them, cannot love in an open and free way. Heck, he does not love himself. So they pick at their spouse, till the confidece and selfworth is torn away.<P>You and I are lucky, we have met men who can love us as we are. Others are not lucky. I have found that even the most beautiful among us can have a spouse who deams our appearance picking on every detail making that person feel insecure. And you are also rigth that being accepted as you are is one of the greatest loves another can give us. <P>Appearance is important. But as I said, beauty is subjective. <P>And yeppers to:<P>"So, I guess what we're ALL trying to say is that it is about a combination of emotional needs that WE need to have met (us and our spouses) and that we need to respect those needs."<P>Z<P>(Gee this is great... we have solved on of the worlds great problem. Should we move on the Middle East Peace? lol)<P><BR>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare<p>[This message has been edited by zorweb (edited July 01, 2001).]