Hi all - <P>I have used the search feature of this forum to try to find threads relating to the fantasy aspect of an affair. I am looking for perspectives/comments on what this addiction is like and what I can expect. I have not yet found a thread addressing directly what the addiction is like and can use some help.<P>W is presently deep into her affair. She has COMPLETELY alienated her entire family, all her friends, risks her career (had some costly errors last week on the job), and has spent about $15K since she left me in June.<P>These are all completely uncharacteristic behaviors for her. Besides devastating me, she has horrified her family. Last time I saw her, she WANTED to describe her life with this creep to me. I had to remind her that I was not some disinterested third party and that any description of her and this guy would hurt too much.<P>Can betrayers please help me understand the following:<P>1. Describe the addiction/fantasy aspect of the affair.<P>2. How long did it last for you?<P>3. Did you exhibit any bizzare or uncharacteristic behavior as the result of the addiction during your affair? If so what was it?<P>4. What else can we betrayeds expect - what is the normal progression of this fantasy/illusion?<P>Thank you for your assistance. I'm having a real hard time imagining my wife with another man, doing things we never did. Please help!

Shattered1 -- I think I'll try to answer some of the questions you are asking.<P>The fantasy for me was to be with a person of another race. I am a white female and have always wanted to know what it was like to be with a black man. I didn't so much want to try different postions with the man I had a physical affair with, I just wanted to find out if the things I had been told about black men were true. I had friends tell me that black men were bigger than white men were and that they were better lovers. They would tell me once your with a black man you'll go back (to a white man that is) I wanted to find out for myself.<P>I did get to find out for myself. Yes the OM was black and he was a little bigger than my H. He didn't make a better lover than my H though. All the OM was wanting was an easy woman to get "laid" so to speak. He was very rough on me and had no sympathy for me when he hurt me. He was a wam bam thank-you mam type of person. That fantsey was over after the first time. I didn't want to continue with it further to try one more time to see if it got any better. I had found my answer in that my H is defintely by far a way better lover than OM ever was or could have been. Now if I want to try something new I know that all I have to do is suggest it to my H and we may try it we may not, but I know that he is willing to try anything as long as I ask.<P>I don't know if I showed any bizarre or different characterics. My H and I were separated at the time of the physical affair and my parents weren't around all that much. I don't have a great relationship with my parents, step-parents, and sisters so I don't know if they would have even seen if I was different or not.<P>As far as how long the fantasy/illusion goes on I think depends on the person with the fantsay or illusion. I had the fantsay while I was working with a friend who was dating a black man but never really thought I would ever find out. But once I did I never had that fantasy again. I had my answer. For me the fantasy was in the back of my mind I just never acted on it. Now if I ever hear someone talking about something different sexual I also fantasize about doing it with my H not someone else.<P>Let me know if I didn't answer something or if I didn't answer something fully. Hope this was what you wanted by asking the questions.

Hopeful 1771 - <P>Thank you for your reply, it was really informative. However, I'm looking for a discussion on what the "illusion" of an affair is all about.<P>I keep hearing and reading about how people who enter into affairs get this "romantic" love feeling, that euphoric high that has a tendency to "lower their IQ's". Having never been in that position, I can't really understand it. I do remember, however, that feeling when my W and I were single. BUT, I never treated anyone else like sh*t. My W is treating me and everyone else like sh*t, and emotionally I'm a wreck - even 3 months into this mess.<P>I was looking for perspectives on this emotional "high" as a way to perhaps partially explain my W's behavior toward me and everyone else. As you can probably tell, I'm desparate and perhaps grasping at straws here. I'm looking for answers where there probably aren't any. (I'm an engineer...it's not in our nature to not be able to understand things.) Since affairs are almost totally emotionally based, applying an engineer's logic is fruitless. I really need help!

Although my affair was short lived I'll try to answer your questions...<P>1. I agree with the addiction part of an affair. It was really like a drug for me. I NEEDED the OM...couldn't live without him. I think the reason for that was that he made me feel SO good that I wanted to continue feeling that eurphoric high that I did. I've come to realize that the "high" would end at some point and I would have to go back to making myself happy. It's much easier to have someone else make you happy than to look inside yourself.<P>I guess the affair was also a fantasy although I didn't look at it that way at the time. I was serious about the OM...both good and bad. I realized that life with the OM wouldn't be "happy" all the time. What was fantasy about it for me was not taking anybody elses feelings into account. That may be part of the reason your wife is treating everyone like sh*t. She might be embarrassed and ashamed about the whole thing that it's easier to leave everyone high and dry.<P>2. My affair never "ran it's course", so the addiction lasted the entire time. It took about 2-3 months for the feelings of withdrawl to diminish. They're still there, but not nearly as strong.<P>3. I guess my behavior was bizarre...mostly because I was sneaking around. I also would have given anything up for the OM. I also didn't ask my husband for anything...we had just moved into a new house and I didn't even put curtains up for 2 months. <P>4. I don't know what you can expect...every situation is different. All I know is I was very depressed during withdrawl and wanted to "cry" to my husband about it. I wanted him to comfort me because I was hurt by another man...but knew I couldn't expect him to comfort me. So, basically I wallowed in my own depression...which made him feel bad.<P>Why does your wife feel the need to describe her life with the OM? Does she expect you to be happy for her?<P>By the way...I used to work with engineers, the OM is one, and my dad is one, so I understand where you're coming from.<P>

shattered1 --<P>Well, here's a male perspective for ya, although I have alot more in common with Holly and the other female betrayers on this board than most male betrayers.<P>1. The OP is an addiction because you can't get enough of them. When you are not around them, you want to be around them. When you are with them, you have a feeling of euphoria. You think about them all the time. Not being with them is painful.<P>The fantasy aspect is pretty much thinking that life with the OP will be so much better than life with your current spouse. I, like Holly, was well aware of the faults of my OW. But that didn't mean anything to me. I knew that I could work around anything.<P>2. I'm still in withdrawal, so I guess you could say I'm still addicted. But it's wearing off slowly but surely. It's been about 2 1/2 months (with the exception of a few cave-ins by me) since I stopped seeing OW. I imagine it will still take a while longer until I'm completely over her. My affair was completely emotional (no physical aspects), but even so, it's been very difficult to get over.<P>3. I can't say that I didn't anything overtly bizarre. Before my wife found out, I was very very distant to her. I also told her that I didn't love her like a husband should love a wife, and that I felt that way for a long time. But those are fairly typical things for a betrayer to do.<P>4. As far as what to expect next, I have no idea. It's different in all cases. But if your W is currently living with the OM, there is a very good chance that they will not survive as a couple. But through that time, it's gonna suck for you. I would suggest looking into Plan A and Plan B as a way for you to cope.<P>--andy

Hi Holly - <P>Thank you for your reply. This is EXACTLY the type of information I seek. If your affair did not "run it's course", what made you stop? Was your entire affair undisclosed and so you had to be sneaky the entire time?<P>As a matter of fact, YES, my wife, during her last visit home (unexpectedly despite my plan B letter), DID expect me to be happy for her!!! It was unbelievably CRUEL! I was completely speachless when she told me..."Shattered, why can't you just say you're happy for me since I'm so happy now?" Although I maintained my composure at the time, this exchange haunts me night and day. I would have NEVER believed that someone I was once so close to could be so callous.<P>I have been reading your posts for quite some time Holly. I am beginning to understand withdrawal too, although I don't think I will ever get a chance to try to work with my W through it. She filed for divorce last week. My self-esteem is completely and totally gone. I am so proud of your progress Holly. I pray that my W returns home like you did.<P>It's ironic that it seems that this board is filled with either:<P>1. betrayeds who give up who are married to betrayers who want to rebuild OR<P>2. betrayers who want to quit who are married to betrayed who want to rebuild (my situation) OR<P>3. betrayers and betrayed who want to rebuild. (ideal situation)<P>There doesn't seem to be a lot of messages where there is a mutual agreement from the betrayed and betrayer to quit. I guess neither would join a Marriage BUILDERS forum!<P>Again Holly, thanks for your insight. I look forward to anything else you may have to say.

Airheart - <P>I have been following your story too for quite some time. Although I am new to posting, I have been lurking since mid July. Things have gotten so bad for me that I just had to join this wonderful support team! I just PRAY that someday I will be giving advice here as a successful "infidelity veteran" instead of just seeking and taking advice. Time will tell.<P>Your perspective on the addiction/fantasy is absolutely fascinating. Although I can't imagine it, what you described from the betrayers point of view is almost exactly what I experience from a betrayed point of view. I'm in a beat the clock situation now that my W has filed for divorce (here in MN it only takes 3-4 months). I figure she has been with this cretin since June...December makes six months. If she hasn't given him up by then, I will be in a better mental and emotional position to move on myself.<P>As a male, one of my most important emotional needs is sexual fulfillment (surprise, surprise). As a result, I haven't been intimate with anyone (wife) since May. I'm getting lonely, and pleasuring myself is starting to get old. I can easily see why individuals in my position are extremely vulnerable to affairs. Don't worry, I will not have an affair myself, I'm just extremely lonely.<P>Any other thoughts you might be able to share?

Shattered1,<P>Yep, engineers logic doesn't work on this one that is for sure. So sorry for the pain you are experiencing.<P>I am not sure how much by way of clear explaination I can offer but I will try. This is definately one of those topics that is even hard for the betrayer to understand.<P>If you ck my profile you'll get the gist of my situation so I won't ramble on specifics here.<P>1. Describe the addiction/fantasy aspect of the affair.<P>I have never been addicted to anything in my life (that I am aware of ) : ) except when it came to the OM. This person was not at all who I made him to be in my mind. Someone who in the normal course of things I wouldn't not have been attracted to for more than a pleasent aquantance. How do I know? Because I knew him a year before anything changed. Didn't really ever give him a second thought. Nice guy..but honestly my mind just never went any further. But a year later I had changed..I felt so differently about myself and even my relationship with my H. I won't go into the details so I don't ramble, but strangely I was attracted to him now. <P>The pull was so strong it is difficult to explain it. I did not act exactly like your W but I hid this second life from my H so in reality I was treating him like s%$# as you've said. <P>Selfishness ruled me. I liked his attention so much, I thought I needed it. I even deserved it. If he was talking with me I was almost out of it (high). If we were trying to stop communicating (which happened several times) I was a low as you could imagine. His actions ruled my emotions. What a mess. I know it sounds pathetic, but I can honestly say I don't know who I was then. See I have gained some perspective and the high of the 'love' feeling has faded. Just a day ago I got some more info on the OM and it is once again adding to the realization that what I saw in him was something that I made up in my head, not based on real life.<P>2. How long did it last for you?<P>The majority of it was there for 3 or 4 months after the affar ended. It has gradually diminished from there. <P>3. Did you exhibit any bizzare or uncharacteristic behavior as the result of the<BR> addiction during your affair? If so what was it?<P>I don't know about bizzare, but my attitude changed. Things that I would never had said I would say, I was so wrapped up in selfishness that I wasn't thinking at all about the affects that my actions would have on my H. I became an expert lier. So sad.<P>4. What else can we betrayeds expect - what is the normal progression of this fantasy/illusion?<P>What Dr. Harley says on this site was true for me. Eventally I began to see that there was no way that this relationship was going to go anywhere, and I began to see I wasn't willing to give up my H for it either. <P>So sorry I have to run...if I can I'll add more tommorow.<P>Hang in there Shattered, there is hope. <P>-janet<p>[This message has been edited by rjr #2 (edited September 09, 1999).]

Thanks rjr#2. I look forward to any additional insight you have. This forum is a blessing...I already feel close to so many of you.<P>I can only post from work (I don't have a computer at home yet) so I will check back tomorrow morning for any additional replies. Everyone, have a great evening...see you tomorrow!

Shattered1--<BR>I stopped my affair (which only lasted a month or two) because I either wanted one man or the other...not both. I pressured the OM to make a decision because I didn't want to have an affair...he originally was going to leave his wife but then changed his mind.<P>I was ready to leave...I'm sure if I did I would be regreting it now.<P>The It sounds like your wife is in big time fantasy land...vacationing and spending money so extravagantly. Hopefully she'll come back to earth!<P>I hope your wife comes home to you as well...you deserve a chance at making the marriage work...you deserve to be happy.<P>

Okay, here's my turn:<P>1. I have an addictive personality about many things, and the OM was no exception. I thought we could rule the world, change the rules and live through it all with a smile and a kiss. WHAT AN IDIOT! Now that I'm out of the fog, I realize that I have never been so embarrassed about ANYTHING in my life - EVER!! At the end, before everyone knew about it (it was very short lived, 3 months) we did really ignorant and stupid things out in public (getting in each others cars, going to lunch together every day, parking within eyesight of people) and said we didn't care who saw us. Talk about a fantasy!! <P>2. Like I said, it lasted 3 months. But the fantasy part lasted about 2 out of the 3, because the last month was spent in deep agony.<P>3. Bizzare? Uncharacteristic? The whole thing was bizzare and uncharacteristic! I did all the stuff you read about... new underclothes, lost weight, looked like I had the world on a string... gee whiz, I hate to even write this stuff.<P>4. Here's what you can expect from my experience and what I've read... the withdrawl lasts at least as long as the affair did. In my case, 3 months. There are still very rare days when I think of the OM fondly, but usually I go days without thinking of him THAT way, although he still crosses my mind almost daily (I still work with the OM, so it's difficult not to...)<P>One thing I want to say about what you wrote in your last statement, you said "doing things we never did"... I think most betrayers will agree that they never did much of anything that they haven't or couldn't have done with their H or W. In my case, I didn't do anything new or exciting. I thought I was in love, and I grabbed it selfishly. It was never mine to have, and I wasn't his to have. At this point in my recovery, I can't even say it was pleasant. Just horribly humiliating and hurtful all the way around.<P>Hope this helps!

I am trying to think of things to say to you that will be comforting. What I think I can say is that the statistics are on your side, most councelors find that the betrayer usually makes an attempt to come back. After reading your posts and your profile, I would think you could be reasonably assured that at some point your wife will try to return. The reality of the situation (a foreignor) and all the kids has not taken its toll. <BR>But you asked about the fantasy and I can speak to that. I was involved in an affair for about a year and felt that I loved this man completely. I felt that I had missed the boat by marrying my husband, in my head, this person was everything that I had ever longed for. He wasn't but that was what I projected on him. I can only tell you that it is the strangest thing that ever happened to me. People say that it is like temporary insanity and that is so true although I also realize that I was sick and it has taken me a while to "get better". If you can, let this thing play out a little bit.....use your friends and your faith in God to keep you strong. As to being bizarre, absolutely, totally, I was not at all the person I was before.......mean to my husband, not caring about anything that I cared about before....saying strange things... I don't know if this helps.

I have to thank all of you for your posts on this topic. I haven't been here in days with school starting,but I missed all of you. My h is still deciding what he wants even though he moved out last week. He has been here several times and goes back and forth about his feelings for me or the ow. Everything said here makes me want to keep praying and waiting for this insanity to end. Most people just don't understand what I'm trying to do. Thankfully, you all realize how important marriage is.

Dear Shattered,<P>I'm so sorry for your pain. I'm still in withdrawal from a 2 yr. which ended about 5 wks ago. After the OM told me for 2 yrs. how much he wanted us/me, when I finally said yes, he changed his mind.<P>The OM was perfect to me, though now I'm seeing things differently, he could do nothing wrong. I dreamt of him, his touch, and had to be near him, which I think was fueled because we had so little time together. I hung on his every word, his voice, laughter put butterflys in my stomach. He always knew exactly what to say. I felt when he looked at me, he could read my mind, touch my soul. Nothing my husband did was good enough, or was right.<P>I tend to be unrealistic and I'm a dreamer at heart, so fantasy world is easy for me. The OM was so romantic, my night in shining armor, my Romeo. I truly felt in my heart that we were made for eachother and truly meant to be together. Our love was a once in a lifetime. Our "world", our life together would be filled with happiness, always kissing, cuddling, filling eachother's needs completely without being forced or asked, everything would come naturally. I was born to be with him and vice versus. <P>My behavior was bizarre because I never, ever thought I would be the OW. I never understood how people could affairs, it would never happen to me. If my marriage was so terrible, I would leave first. Sneaking around was aweful and the guilt was overwhelming at times. Many times I wish it was all a bad dream.<P>Withdrawal has been hell on earth for me, this forum has helped tremendously, I cryed constantly the first 3 weeks, couldn't eat or sleep. I couldn't understand how the OM could say goodbye to his soulmate, when I gave him what he was asking for for so long. I missed him so much. <P>The fog is lifting and I hope and pray my marriage will survive. I'm giving my husband and marriage the chance it deserves. I now I'm thankful the OM ended it, I would of made a big mistake. The faults in the OM are coming light. I still think of him though and it's still hard.<P>I hope this helps alittle.

Holly/new_beginning/Bonny/Hummingbird - <P>Thanks SO much for the terrific insight. I just checked in and was pleasantly surprised to find all your wonderful posts. What you describe in the previous posts is EXACTLY the information I am looking for.<P>It seems that there are many common elements to this addiction. Is is safe to generalize that:<P>1. the addiction can and aften does make the affected individual do or say ANYTHING to ANYONE to keep the feeling alive?<P>2. the draw to this addiction can even jeopardize your career, financial stability and make you want to end your marriage?<P>3. the addiction is short lived (I pray to God that this is true) and that sooner-or-later, the affected individuals will "come to their senses".<P>To all the female betrayers - what could possibly motivate my W to want to stay in a relationship with a foreign guy 15-20 years her senior who has stated categorically that he cannot divorce his wife who still lives in Europe with their four kids? A female colleague of mine speculated that maybe my W thinks that she can "make him change his mind" about not divorcing his wife. Can you add any credibility to this theory or are there any others? Are there women who might be content knowing that they will only be a mistress?<P>Airheart was right...this waiting SUCKS! I waffle between extreme anger at my W (calling her every profane and vial name imaginable at the top of my lungs) to breaking down and crying out for her to return to me. I am so confused. One minute I hate her...literally the next I love her. Whoever said that there is a fine line between love and hate was SPOT ON!<P>Is there anything else I can do? I'm on Zoloft (wonder drug - thank God for Pfizer), I exercise, I'm plugging back heavily into my faith, I talk to family (her's and mine), friends and am now finally eating regularly again (I lost about 20 pounds). I read in Dr. Harley's material that there isn't anything that I can do to speed up the end of the affair; it has to run its course. THIS SUCKS!!! The imagery is killing me too. What can I do?<P>What might spell the beginning of the end of the affair? Is there anything I should be looking out for in particular?

Shattered1--<BR>I'm trying to understand the OMs situation. He said he won't divorce his wife? Are they living together? Does the OM spend any time with his wife or does he spend all his time with your wife? I think this OM has a major problem! He needs a big slap in the face that he can't have his cake and eat it to.<P>Why would your wife want another man who said he will not divorce his wife? I'm guessing that this will get old real fast. <P>Maybe you should get some advice from some more "educated" people about whether or not you should contact the OM. I think he needs to be told that he can't go galavanting around with your wife when he has no intent on leaving his own wife. I would say confront him...but that would probably be a HUGE lovebuster. Maybe as a last resort?<P>I believe your wife does think she can change this OMs mind about divorcing his wife. She probably thinks (like I did) that since the OM "loves" her most he will have no other choice but to leave his wife. I guarantee if your wife gave him an ultimatum...either her or me, that he would choose his wife. Eventually she will have to ask that question...I can't imagine her being happy just being the other woman. Real life will have to happen at some point and then things will change for her.<P>Continue to take care of yourself...

Holly - <P>Thanks so much for the reply. Yes, unfortunately, W is living with him, although NOBODY (even her family) knows where that is. She was living with her brother and his wife for a few weeks right after she moved out of our house, but her brother and she got into a HUGE fight over what she is doing. Apparently, her brother (who recently accepted Christ into his life) bellowed..."Thous shalt NOT commit adultery!" to my W. W got p*ssed of and moved out of brother's house that night. We all speculate that she went to OM's house, but nobody knows for sure.<P>I don't have too many details on OM othee than hsi name is "Fred" and he is a Dutch executive recently relocated to the US. His W apparently lives in Germany with the 4 kids. I don't know if/when they see each other. Maybe they have an "arrangement" of some sort in their marriage. I don't know.<P>What kind of things did your husband do during your affair that helped you see that HE was the one you should be with? Did he just stay out of the way? That's kind of what I feel like Holly...that I just need to stay clear until this all winds down. I HATE THIS!!!<P>I agree with your thought on the OM. He is a pig and everyone knows he is using my wife for sex and sex only. I just pray that W wakes up soon and sees this @sshole deciever for who he really is.

Dear Shattered,<P>She will see him for what he is, I just wish I could give you the exact date and fast-forward for you but it will happen...<BR>"The power of unmet emotional needs explains why people are willing to give up their spouse as well as their children, career, and beliefs to have their emotional needs met."<BR>That is the quote from Harley's book on affairs that stopped me cold in my tracks and even started me reading his books and going to the website. I had not heard of him before I just picked up the book in a bookstore. It mad soooo much sense to me and explained to me my behaviour and affair.<P>So, you need to wait out the affair and in the meantime be thinking hard about the unmet needs of your wifes that you can meet when she wants to come back. Somehow this guy met some unmet needs and she fell hook-line and sinker. But the fantasy will end and then you can be there to meet her needs, she will wonder why she ever did what she did.<P>In the meantime I think you are doing the right things:anti-depressents, physical exercise, God , friends and family.<P><BR>

Bonnie, thank you so much for your words of encouragement. You know, I keep hearing from just about everyone that the affair will end sooner or later, but from where I sit, it just seems like an ETERNITY. Dr. Harley stated in SAA (I think...I've read 12 books on the subject so far) something to the effect of..."for the betrayed, the waiting is unbearable..." Boy, is that the understatement of the year!<P>I don't know your story Bonny, but if I may ask - how did you finally approach your H regarding reconciliation? My W has been so CRUEL to me in her words and actions that I cannot imagine her approaching me EVER for reconciliation. Maybe it just won't happen. If it does, do you suppose she will be absolutely crushed, go through the withdrawal, not really want to be with me and all that? Do I get to look forward to additional rejection even if her affair ends?<P>From what I read from those who have returned and their spouses, the recovery is almost as painful as the affair itself. My question then is...exactly when DOES it get better for the betrayed? I HATE THIS!!!

shattered,<P>I'd like to comment on the beginning of the end...<P>The first sign to my H that the affair was ending was when I wasn't floating around on cloud 9 anymore... you see, when I told you that the last month was hell, what I meant was this: prior to that, I and the OM honestly thought we had everyone fooled, and those who weren't, well, so what! we are in love! blah, blah, blah. In the last month, I was miserable because I KNEW how stupid it all was, I was embarrassed, and I hid and cried, and cried some more, and didn't eat and didn't sleep and basically fell apart! I defended the OM and the relationship still, but not with the vigor I had before, and definately was quieter and more subdued.<BR>Look for the "not so happy anymore" signs. For me, that's what came first.