Wow, ironic timing, or the Big Guy trying to reach me. No sooner did I take a chance on trying to reason with snooping WSs (To Strongerincali's H and OW - or any other snooping wayward spouse) that I tried to do it in person. What a dumb, but revealing move.<P>Just a while ago, I went out to get some lawnmower gas. On the way, I noticed that there was a swim meet in progress at our pool. My son was on the swim team for several years until he got burned out.<P>On the way back from the gas station, I decided to stop in on the meet to say Hi to some swim team parents I hadn't seen in a while. As I was looking for a parking space, I came upon OM walking through the parking lot - his youngest daughter is apparently still on the team.<P>A conversation was unavoidable. The details aren't important, we both pretty much kept our cool. He gave me the classic story of how "our" marriages were already over by the time he and my wife decided to run, and the failure of my marriage was all my fault because of my abusive and controlling ways - how my wife had tried to save it years ago, but I wouldn't cooperate. (Can you say "revisionist history?") He advised me to get a hold of myself and move on with my life - don't try to blame any thing on him. In addition to the statement above, he said some things that confirmed my suspicion that my wife had sold him a bill of goods in describing the state of our marriage. What really hurt was his description of my "hidden money" that I shielded from everybody to avoid having to spend it on my deceased son's care and ultimately to avoid spending it on his funeral.<P>I remember this "hidden money" story coming up months ago when I had to provide all the details of our financial picture to my wife's attorney in her preparation of our legal separation. I simply printed out a report from Quicken where I keep track of everything financial that we either jointly held, or individually held. This included IRAs, taxable investments, mortgage details, etc. This also included my 401(k) and my wife's 403(b) accounts.<P>Soon thereafter, I heard through OM's wife something about my hidden money. She said OM said that my wife was really pissed about it. I had no idea what they were referring to, but soon, my wife asked me about my 401(k) that showed up on the Quicken report. She said she had no idea that I had so much in that account. Keep in mind that she didn't have the stomach for investing and taking risks and left all the financial stuff to me. I explained to her at the time that this was my 401(k) and this other account was her 403(b) - both from pretax payroll deductions similar to IRAs. She acknowledged she misunderstood and further acknowledged this was the source of the "hidden money" stories. She of course didn't tell me what my advertised reason was for "hiding" this money.<P>Now it's obvious she let this story live. I always assumed the existence of revisionist history. The item about me not wanting to cooperate with saving our marriage years ago also hurt - it was ME who tried this.<P>In a way, I'm glad I heard these things, even though they hurt. The story about hiding money to avoid spending it on my son cuts to the bone. Can you say "big Love Bank withdrawal?" But it also confirms to me that revisionist history was alive and kicking - and that the marriage was not "already over" at the time of the affair because rewriting the facts is central in a WS's justification.<P>This gives me more resolve to implement Plan B. See you soon, Rick.<P>WAT

Good Morning Dave,<P>Like you said, you knew that she had said these things. It is quite another thing to hear them (especially from that pigman).<BR>This is, afterall, the same man that tried to run you down.<BR>He probably put a little extra spin on it to make it sting even more. He hit you where it hurt and he did that on purpose. What a crappy way to start the day. I bet if your wife knew of the encounter she wouldn't feel that good about it either (despite her ideas of your marriage). This man has proven to you time and again that he is just and angry vendictive person. You can chalk that conversation up to an attempt to cut you down with words rather than the car this time.<P>I know and everybody else around here knows that you would not spare a dime when it came to saving your son or anything else regarding your children. I bet she did clarify the hidden money thing to the pigman but that he decided to say it anyway.<P>When you get to Plan B, I am sure that you have the strength to go through it. I am also sure that your wife will be in for a MAJOR wakeup call.<P>have fun mowing......<BR>cleo

<B>WAT - </B> I think that "hidden money" suspicions are just a another symptom of the "moose brain worms" infection. Just a couple of months after d-day, W was talking to her mother...or actually, dear sweet "Mum" was talking to her. Mumsy told W to be careful if she tried to leave me because I would most probably cause her dire, physical harm. W at least gave me some credit, because she told her she didn't think that was a possibility and she wasn't going to concern herself about that.<P>Next, Mumsy said, "You don't think he's hiding money from you, do you? I'll bet he is.". W responded "I don't know, but he could be".<P>Well, for our entire marriage, I have kept all of my financial doings stored in Quicken. I've even shown W how to use it to find out anything she wants, where the cancelled checks and bank statements are kept as well as encouraging her to keep her financial records there as well. I've got everything there, mortgage, 401(k), checking, savings, credit cards, investment accounts and so on. The only monies that I couldn't produce paper for would have been the spending from the ATM cash, but we were eating out and ordering in so often, that W knew where most of that money went, too.<P>It just drove me crazy that she could entertain such a possibility when she had the means to know for sure. It was just easier to not check anything out and be able to use that against me.<P>It's definitely not nearly as bad as the story your W entertains, but it is mildly related....<P>--DeWayne--

WAT........I don't believe you bud (no offense), will not defend your wife (who I don't know obviously). But I do believe she "feels" that you kept the money secret, and that she has justification (from your own "explanation" in this post). It was classic obfuscation, something controllers are good at.

SnL--<BR>pullease...<BR>Let me reveal how quickly 'revisionist history' can occur...<BR>This week H overdrew his acct. When i showed him how to reconcile it (something he has never done in 15 years) two errors came to light...he forgot to write down a $300 transaction and made a $100 subtraction error. <P>Now I had an ATM card and used it twice. Once to purchase a present for one of his students at his request...we were in a hurry that day and i forgot to tell him how much it was --$24...also I mistakenly used it to purchase something else (I also have an ATM for my acct and both cards look exactly the same...they are actually ATM/Visas) using it as a Visa...for $30.<P>Later that night he got angry with me that his account was overdrawn and pointed out that I had 'taken' his money and now he was overdrawn....<P>I simply pointed out, in controller fashion, that he had made $400 worth of mistakes to my $54 and that as soon as he pointed it out to me, I replaced the money....<P>Revisionist history is alive and well and exists because of moose brain worms that twist time and memories so that WS's can justify their own anger.<P>Cali<BR>

sad_n_lonely, are you trying to say that you thing that WAT really did keep money a "secret" from his wife? A 401K is a retirement fund... it grows or doesn't based on the stock market and the economy. It is not hidden or secret - but isn't part of every day life. And there are substantial financial (tax) penalties if you withdraw any of it prior to retirement age.<P>I hope I am misinterpreting you here.<BR><P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>WAT........I don't believe you bud</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What don't you believe?

WAT,<P>Man, how did you keep from either crying or punching the guy's lights out when he came out with that "hidden money" story? Heaven's that must have hurt.<P>Did you notice what great human being he is, takes no responsibility for anything. Puts all the blame on you. Doesn't own up for his own choices.<P>There are times when you *do* begin wondering about yourself, and I find remembering what I just wrote helps me out quite a bit during those times.<P>Additionally, I wanted to say that I heard the same Revisionist History about our marriage from my WS. That *she* had tried and I had been uncooperative. I think this is one of the standard motifs that the aliens put in their heads.<P>And all this in front of his daughter, eh?<P>Ish

What a jerk!!! <P>

Terri, not a secret secret, cause is a paper trail. But that he (for whatever reason) acted in such a matter as to keep his wife ignorant, she interprets that as secretive, and she is right. Now WAT is backpedaling with a bunch of logical sounding stuff.... I could be wrong, but I have been the recipient of this kind of stuff for years, and am very in tune to it. The word is dissembling. His wife is overreacting, but it is not revisionist. If you BS would listen more and accuse us of fog et al less, it would be more helpful to all. BS also have their own agenda, and I see regularly (here) a BS slant of dismissing the complaints of WS (cause we are just dishonest, temp insane, losers, so why listen), while at the same time self-justifing themselves. This is perfectly understandable, we all do it, but not only WS suffer revisionism.<P>Cali....Your H was obviously out of line (from your comments), and by now you know what is going on. Your husband has issues (whether legitimate or not) with feeling you "see" him.....so he is fighting back every way he can. He is a little more nutso than I am, but I understand him (and what is driving him) very well. The only difference between he and I is I am more analytical, so can be reasoned with (to an extent), and have an over-developed sense of fairplay. I know it seems hopeless, and so hard to understand, but really cali, quit arguing with him, and showing him he is wrong (even when he is). Just do it girl. Is ok, to explain stuff, and yourself, but the small subtle difference between doing that, and projecting judgement is extremely important when one is hyper-sensitized. Yes his angry outbursts and unfair behaviour seem incomprehensible, and hopeless, but they are not. You are an intelligent woman cali, you know everything we (all of us) do has an explanation, cause and effect. Crazy as any of this is, it can be figured out, their is method in your H madness (well, unless he is actually mentally ill, then all bets are off). Now it may be that the "truth" revealed will be unacceptable in a marital sense, but you can't really decide till you know, and it has not been long enough to unravel yet. Hang in their cali, you will be a better person in the long run regardless of outcome. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, I really believe that, and it keeps me going...... Now I must go fight some more with my wife, we are having a verrrrrrryyyy bad few days. From my view, she is trying to manipulate me in the ways that I am weak (essentially guilting me with her angst), and I am resisting (and very angry) the effort. The upshot is non stop critizism from my wife (we are talking hours on end of this), she isn't listening to me at all (as evinced by her responses) IMO, and that is um....... a problem for me, it makes me feel unimportant....just a possession to be used to fill this role of husband/father in the image she thinks I should.

WAT....... Don't believe you are completely innocent of your wife's ignorance of this money. If it is a significant ammount, (and not a triviality) then you could have made a point of appraising her (and being sure she understood) the sums (and conditions) involved. True, she may have little interest, etc. etc. and that makes for good excuses. But it could also be true you enjoy having um..... position, power over your wife (and this can take many many forms), certainly having a superior knowledge of your family finances could meet such a desire. Then when called on it, (albeit "unfairly") you (the general you) can then throw up a smokescreen of "justifications", but that belies the fundamental issue, she doesn't trust you, there has to be reasons for that. This is one way she may have communicated it to you. Only you know whether you deep down seek power over your wife (and thereby were less motivated to appraise her), and whether this money thing was one of those ways, and you got called on it, but have plausible denial. Just my thoughts, and if I am wrong, or out of line, my apoloigies, but the way you wrote your post spoke this to me. Course I have the same moose worm infection as your wife, so what do I know.<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited June 30, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ishmael:<BR><B>And all this in front of his daughter, eh?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually, it wasn't in front of his daughter. He was apparently arriving late to the meet.<P>In all fairness, he did acknowledge being partly responsible for the problems in his marriage, as I did about mine. What he refused to accept was that it was wrong for both of them to handle their marriage problems outside of their respective marriages. He kept saying the marriages were already over, "Why can't you accept that?" The other thing he aluded to was that there was nothing "going on" until long after the legal separation. He's using the same logic my wife used about an "affair" needing to be sexual, and a legal separation making that OK.<BR> <BR>I didn't try to argue with him, just soaked up the revisionist history info. It really helps my resolve to go to Plan B. I don't share Cleo's optimism about its effectiveness on my wife, but now I will be doing it almost fully for my benefit - to begin my process of renewal.<P>WAT<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>WAT....... Don't believe you are completely innocent of your wife's ignorance of this money. If it is a significant ammount, (and not a triviality) then you could have made a point of appraising her (and being sure she understood) the sums (and conditions) involved. True, she may have little interest, etc. etc. and that makes for good excuses. But it could also be true you enjoy having um..... position, power over your wife (and this can take many many forms), certainly having a superior knowledge of your family finances could meet such a desire.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>SNL - you have a rectal-cranial inversion.<P>I could have been more wordy in my original post and explained in detail that I frequently attempted to show my wife the state of our finances - particularly when it came time to pay medical bills - but she always declined, not wanting to count unrealized gains. She entrusted me with ALL the financial decisions - including those involving HER IRAs and 403(b) as well as our joint accounts, and I entrusted her with all the day-to-day medical decisions regarding our son. We were a team because it's impossible for any one person to stay focused on all the tasks at hand when dealing with a child with a life-threatening illness.<P>The reason I didn't make such a long explanation is that I was naive that some jerk like you was out to find hidden meanings due to your own psychological projection.<P>WAT

Dave/WAT:<P>Two thumbs up! For handling the situation as you did. Every day you show the mettle of which you are made.<P>Yes, alas, Plan B looms. Know that my thoughts and prayers will be with you.<P>(But only after Monday, I must profess zorweb and I are off to enjoy some US time, as the kids are all away).<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

SNL---I am appalled at your response to Dave. His W even admitted it was a misunderstanding. As Dave explained, there was no way that one person could handle everything involving their sons illness. His W handled the medical decisions, and he handled the financial end of it. Her saying that it was "secret" was just another justification for her to do what she was doing.<P>Dave, you handled the situation wonderfully. Kind of like my phone call from OW this week. I refuse to give her the upper hand in this, and you proved yourself to be much more of a man than OM is.<P>It is definately time for Plan B. Take care of you!!!

WAT<P>rectal-cranial inversion?? I LOVE THAT! I will be borrowing that soon. Maybe even today <P>I am sorry that you don't share my "optimism" about your Plan B. I do hold out hope for you. My H did a complete 180 and he is one of the most logical people on the planet. He had already gone through the complete thought process of ending things. Here he is one year later.<BR>It's not over till the fat lady sings......

Hidden money? Spewing from the OM and OM's W mouth? Whatever secret or family only info it may have been, now the WS has given it to the rest of the community. <P>Why was this necessary if they weren't having an A? Now that Dave's finacial status is now known to the neighborhood, how do you expect him to feel Snl? <P>The A, pretending to be a marriage but doing all their 'private business' out in the open. Hmmmph.... Now exposing even family business to 'strangers or worse yet just plain strange people'. You think WAT should have knowlege of the OM's secret money also? HMmmmmph.....<P><BR>Come on, it goes both ways. The stupid one here is Wat's W (sorry Dave). For spilling family info with some one who is NOT family. Get it???? NOT family!!!!! All the wanna be's, pretending to be a family doesn't cut it. <P>Sorry Dave for sounding off like this but this really irritates me (blame it on my raging hormones or something but I am steamed). My H did the same thing, told OW that I took all his money, I hid money by buying stock and keeping my own stock portfolio, stock purchase plan, 401k etc. Not making him accessible to those accounts. Wrong, those accounts are setup not to be touched by anyone, ever heard of planning for retirement? Planning for our children and their education? Planning for a future? <P>Ahhhh, but when the foghead logic rolls in and times get tight, those airheads change that logic into 'hidden money' and then claim they are being misled by their own 'families'. <P>This is wrong. OM was stupid to open his fat big mouth. Now Dave, as hurt as you may be, you will need to get past this and consider the fact that whatever you share with your W can become public knowledge. All bets off on this one until she gets into some clear thinking. Sorry pal, this is going to be one bumpy ride. <P>Take Care and be brave. <BR>L.<BR>

Thanks all for your encouragement. Let's forgive SNL for jumping the gun with his assumptions.<P>Cleo - your optimism means a lot to me - please don't stop it just because I need to keep my expectations in check. Did you see that tremendous catch Rafael made the other night?<P>Orchid - thanks for your support. I have no secrets. I'll never forget that NSR once "accused" me of having unabashed honesty. Look at my profile and see how many posts I made since last September - every single one with the expectation that one day my wife may read them. Sure, some may make her cringe, others may make her mad - but every one is honest.<P>WAT<p>[This message has been edited by worthatry (edited June 30, 2001).]

Hey there Dave,<BR> As justification for his affair, my H made that exact same statement. Whenever I asked him "why?", he replied with, "In my mind, the marriage was already over." He'll still give that as his reason, 21 months later, completely out of the fog and totally in love with me again. In his mind he was CONVINCED of this. There was nothing I could do to unconvince him (Plan A). He had to change his mind on his own. What I could do was,change what "I" was doing, so that he was forced to decide if the marriage was really over ( most of us boldly see the signs and even hear the words of indecision,but we don't grab onto that and use it to our advantage). Enter Plan B. WS gets Plan B letter, all of a sudden their is real time risk involved in continuing the behavior. All of us sudden there is a consequence to what they have been doing, all of a sudden there is something to lose. They become a bit unnerved to say the least.<P>Plan B guarantees you relief. You get it in two ways. You are unleashed from the burden Plan A, which let's be honest, is tortuous. You are also assured of the fact that this will bring an end to that suffering. You will know one way or another( by how your wife responds) which direction YOU need to take with your life. There is no more limboland.

Thanks "Mother."<P>I plan on posting my revised Plan B letter tomorrow.<P>I could use some advice regarding how to adapt it for the situation that I believe currently exists - OM #1 is out of the picture and there may be a new OM #2. I was thinking of simply taking all references about an affair completely out of the letter and just emphasizing that I've been hurt by the collapse of our marriage etc, etc, etc.<P>Ideas?<P>WAT