I am new to this board and am saddened by most of what I've red. Most of you seem so pathethic and loss over your life. I believe the site is called marriage builfer. How can you build something by 1( doing it yourself 2) Acting so imature 3) Just plain manipulation.<BR>In reading hundreds of your posts, I find you slamming wives and husbands, OW Oh and everyone , but yourselves. You made your life exactly as you wanted it. I saw you gving kudos to a woman who did mean and imature acts to an OW "You sure scared her" Is this what you want to teach your children? Is this rebuilding your marriage?<BR>I hope to never be that kind of person for my shildren, even if they can't understand. <BR>Yes, but your mad, so are muders, and thieves, is it o.k. for them to do what they do? Grow up!<BR>Youa ll talk about the plans A&B, lets call them what they are _ MANIPULATION- this is what you use when you discipline your kids, not what you use on someone you supposedly love. It is for todlers, not for adults. Is that how you want your spouses back? Through tricks?<BR>I have been both W and OW and have never seen the truth in making soemone be in a marriage or relationship that they did not want to. I have seen you all write about vows and commitments. I agree.<BR>On the other hand, you can't make someone feel some way they do not. Why would you fight for something that is not there?Are you fooling yourself about wht was there in the first place?<BR>Is denial better than the truth? What do you get out of it? Fathers for your children? Mothers for them? How about true relationships for them instead. Do people really leave relationships that are good? In my little knowing...no.<BR>Why do you so desperately want to hang onto something or someone that does not make you a better person? Is it better to be with someone than no one?<BR>Are all of you so insecure that you need to write to people you don't know and can't possibbly know everything in your life to make a true and honest opinion about what you tell them?<BR>Anything can be given a spin. It's always only your perception.<BR>Like my name says, I'm just a person, one voice, I just wanted to share that I was looking for discussion, not judgement, hypocracy, hatefulness, and ill informed opinions.<BR>Are you all being the person you truly want others to see you as, or are you just hurt, angry, and unable to take your life in your own hands, and live it with dignity. I have seen none of that here, especially those of you who blame others for the end of your marriages. Affairs and other people are not your problems, they are the result of your problems. Look at your marriages. You are cowards, who write into space rather than confront your own mistakes.<BR>I can take whatever you can give. No God Bless, I'm sorry or anything. <BR>E

JAP:<P>Sorry you feel that way. But to set the record straight:<P>(a) no one is "going it alone" ... MB is built upon spelled out principles about building marriages (don't lurk the posts: read the literature here as well);<P>(b) the purpose of this forum is to:<BR> (1) provide advice to one another, and<BR> (2) provide a place to vent (so we don't love bust on spouses);<P>(c) applying the MB principles through Plans A and B is not manipulation, it is an attempt to restore what is rightfully theirs: the sanctity of marriage;<P>(d) beyond the recovery of a marriage, the MB principles build a far, far better marriage than originally existed, indeed, even for those who have not had the misfortune to have an affair occur in their marriage, the principles spelled out in His Needs, Her Needs and How to Affair-proof Your Marriage are tools to elevate one's marriage to a higher plateau ... and;<P>(e) In summation, I find it hard to believe, that in your lurking and reading, you had not the wit to perceive that Plan A and B are plans of ACTION, and to act is not to be a coward.<P>Come out of YOUR fog: as an OW you inflicted grievous pain ... from out of ambush, no less, most assuredly an act of cowardice as any that could be named.<P>Beyond that ... welcome to MarriageBuilders, where, rest assured, your voice--as those of countless others--is heard.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

My guess from your post:<P>You are currently an OW.<BR>Your "boyfriend" won't give up his wife and/or family and you are mad. <BR>You wonder how could anyone hang on to a "dead marriage" when you are out there pining away for someoneelses husband.<BR>You manipulate people to get what you want but when it doesn't go your way you start throwing stones.<BR>You wonder why we are here writing to people we don't know who don't know everything about us to give a true and honest opinion....yet here YOU are writing to people you don't know.....<BR>You say you are looking for discussion, not judgment etc...then again, here you are doing exactly what you don't like us doing. You name call and insult and then want to have a discussion. <P>These are real people here dealing with very difficult issues. Most posts are compassionate. Yes. there a disagreements and angry words traded now and then, but that happens everywhere.<BR>There are many OW, OM, and WS on this board. Most are here because they honestly want to do the right thing. Their input is appreciated. You, I believe, are here for reasons other than that.

just a person,<BR>why are you so down on this site??? If you have read as much as you claim, you would certainly see that people who are trying to rebuild their marriages get a lot of support and feedback here, from people who are going through the similar situations.<P>I don't understand your hostility! You don't say anything about what brought you here, or what is the situation with your own marriage. Did your husband have an affair? Have you? How did you come to this site?<P>If you explore the MarriageBuilders site further, you will learn more about the unique philosophies of Dr. Harley, the creator of this site. He has written several insightful books which cover the same subjects as this website. If you take the time to read the books or even just look at this site, you will see that Plan A and Plan B are not at all about manipulation. They are about offering spouses a chance to save their marriages.<P>People have affairs for many reasons. While each person's story here is slightly different in the details, many of them share common elements. Many married people who have affairs still love their spouses, and when given the chance, will end the affair and work to save the marriage. Many spouses look back after the experience and see that it was a mistake. There are many recovered couples here who have survived affairs and gone on to have better marriages than ever before. Even in cases when it seems like love is lost, with the right actions, it can be rebuilt. People who have "fallen out" of love can fall right back in with time and work; it has been proven time and time again.<P>The people who post here are not "insecure." They are looking for others who have had similar experiences they can share. Very often, a spouse who has had an affair or whose mate is having an affair has no one to talk to. They may be embarrased or ashamed to tell family or friends. They may not want those close to them to get involved in their marital problems. This forum offers a safe, comfortable and very uplifting way to get through a difficult life experience. I have met many people here whom I consider to be friends.<P>I hope you give MarriageBuilders a chance. There is a lot of good here to be gained...skills for building better relationships, skills for handling life crises, not to mention caring people who will reach out to you. Who knows? Post your story and you might make a friend yourself.<P>Wishing you success and happiness in your marriage,<P>calla

Hmmm ...<P>Princess? Is that you??? lol<P>This post is a waste of time to address, Folks. This person is not here to be supported or to help, but to cause trouble and simply disrespect us.<P>Shooo now, Just A Person .... shooooo!<P>And BTW Just a Person, we have several success stories from the MB princpals. Success as in happy marriages, where BOTH (WS & BS) spouses are elated they are recovered and rebuilding their love for one another DUE TO THE MARRIAGE BUILDERS PRINCIPALS.<P>Perhaps do some more reading here before you pass judgment.<P>Adios!<BR>Jo<BR>

I really take offense to your post. For most of us here, what has happened in our marriages is a tragedy. Many of us have kids and for the most part, good family units. A little insanity comes into the picture and all hell breaks loose. <P>Marriages all have their ups and downs. And a lot of times spouses don't know how to handle the down times and will often do something such as have an affair... and then things get out of control. It takes more effort to try to stick with your marriage and make it a good one then to file for divorce. I for one don't want to become a divorce statistic---for myself and especially for my children. I will hang in there until I can't handle it any more. <BR> I teach special service kids at our local middle school and I have one class of "normal" kids for homeroom.What I have seen over the years is sad. The rampant disintegration of our families is hurting our next generation of kids. It is so sad. We are very much into the "me" generation---with little concern for the welfare of our children. These kids come and talk to me about their parent's boyfriends, girlfriends, new husbands, newer husbands, newest husbands, mothers having affairs, being beaten up by boyfriends, having to move 5 or 6 or 7 times because of relationships breaking up. It is pathetic...and this is in an upper middle class neighborhood. <P>Do I want that for my kids...absolutely not. Am I pathetic because my husband has affairs....maybe. But if I can put my marriage back together again, I will try to. Divorce is too devastating for all of us emotionally, financially and physically. <P>Are there times in my marriage that I don't want to be married...yes. Have I ever had an affair...no. But I have thought about divorce at times. But for the most part, I enjoy being married. I like being there for my family and creating this family unit that will be carried on to the next generation. I hate to see that fall apart. <P>I may not have a choice this time..who knows. I think I am a strong women for the most part...and I will survive this one way or the other. I have a profession, I have 4 wonderful kids, and so far I have a husband that I still love. I don't view myself as being pathetic, but I can tell you this is some of the hardest emotional experiences I have ever had to face. Perhaps there comes a time when you do call it quits, but from what I have seen--it often doesn't seem to make families happier. <P>I really don't think this is what God had in mind when he created the institution of marriage.

My dear Just a person,<P>I am so sorry for your pain. You are obviously lashing out at the world for your unfortunate choice of being the other woman and probably a wayward spouse. I assume that you are, like you describe others. What was that? A coward, who writes into space rather than confront your own mistakes.<P>RE: “I just wanted to share that I was looking for discussion, not judgment, hypocrisy, hatefulness, and ill informed opinions.”<P>Are you feeling insecure? I that why you were looking for discussions with people you don’t know and can’t possibly know everything about?<P>Why would you assume that there is nothing there in my marriage? My husband and I are helplessly in love and very happy. His affairs were an unfortunate blip in our lives. Nothing that we cannot recover from. We have used this pain to grow our love and our relationship.<P>Are you aware that the people on this board are BSs, WSs and OP? Those here are from all sides of the triangle.<P>And tell me? How are the relationships in your life and what wisdom do you have to impart on me that will improve my life? Perhaps your contributions here could turn us all around. I will not take as an example the ranting anger that you flung at us. I am sure this is not who you want your children to know you as. Do you have anything of use to offer? Do you have anything positive that will improve our lives? Or do you only have anger?<P>Again, your pain is so evident, so thick a knife could cut it.<P>Could you tell me one thing? I am curious. Every few days some OW/OM shows up on this forum and calls us names and insults us. Do you have enough insight into this very strange phenomenon so that we will understand why a person who is a perpetrator feels further need to attack those who have already been harmed? I am most curious. Please do share.<P>I hope that you find the peace in your life you so obviously seek.<P>Zorweb<P><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Well, Just a person (Hm...shortening your user name may be insulting to some), <P>Anyway, you are a writer? You have expressed your thoughts well... You have read 'hundreds' of posts here. Why? <P>Have you every been a mother or had to fight to save someone from diaster? Were you ever willing to put yourself in harms way to save the life of another? If not, well you may not understand what drives many of 'us' here. <P>I know that before I learned of my H's As, I was judgemental. Not as expressive as you but judgemental none the less. Now you claim to have been a W and an OW. Which one felt better? Which would you encourage? Which one are you proud of? Hm....? <P>Take this as you may, those were not sarcastic statements. They were given to make you think. That is one of the purpose of this site. To share viewpoints, to ask questions and make us think, vent and understand. Not many out there in the world know how to handle the variety of issues raised here. Before you get way up there in your assessment of this entire board remember we are just everyday people struggling against great odds to save our families. <P>I hope someone out there thinks enough about you to fight for you in the same way, if your life was in jeporady. <P>Sometimes we get angry, mad and frustrated. Guess what not just OW's have feelings. Everyone does. Do you like to be a punching bag of insults? I have been and it doesn't feel nice. Yet, now my H has apologized for his bad conduct. Was it worth enduring that torture? I would like to think so. You have caught me at a very vulnerable time. So I could possibly be easily 'manipulated' to come over and see your viewpoint but let's be realistic. I just lost a baby, H's OW claims to be preg., H wants one more chance to prove he can bring value and worth to his family. He has asked that I work with him on dealing with the OC if there should be one. Ready to give up? Could be. May be. But will I? No, not yet. Why? You go research the basic concepts here at MB. Then come back with more of your opinions. We will read them and comment. Fair?!?!?<P>L.<P>

Just A Person, I feel sad that you find us so disappointing. I feel sad that your anger is so loud but know what? Mine was really bad at the beginning. I took it out on my church and my extended family until I began to heal. I was so completely furious with myself for falling into the trap I never ever intended to fall into.<P>I hope you will heal and begin to see that most of us WS are deeply grieved and wish more than anything we never ever screwed up our lives. Sorry, honey, but not too many of us planned it and if we did, and we are here now, we want to change.<P>It's OK to express your anger but please don't love bust us-even though we are strangers..no disrespectful judgments...<P>We don't know what all is at the root of your pain but we hear it. If you are willing to give us a chance and afford us the dignity we are striving to gain (whether WS or BS), we may be able to help you toward healing and you may teach us valuable lessons. <P>I felt very threatened when I first came to MB as my filter said there was far too much WS bashing here and I misunderstood people's comments to me. One person I took exception to was patient with me and now he is really my mentor. I was just so fresh with pain and shame and self-loathing I assumed I was being mocked. I gave it a chance and this place is a haven I try to visit as often as I can for now. In a few more months, I hope just to post updates or help others but this is a place for people in need. We can't tidy up our messes overnight. We have to be honest to get through this. We are working hard to recover.<P>Please find a safe way to vent your anger and come back and talk to us calmly if you can. If you find us too upsetting, give it some time. I hope you don't reject MB because you will find it a significant support in time.<P>I hope you will choose healing and love and life.

It sure sounds a lot like princess...otherwise why would she quote a response from one of my posts?<P>You get to vent to each other about your 'miserable' lives. You get to walk away from your marriages and your commitments and justify your actions by saying you are in love with someone else and 'it just happened.'<P>You get to say "me, me, me, what about me?" just like my 5 year old does....<P>This is a place for us to 'vent' and to share stories and to support one another...people who believe in marriage and commitment and lasting love...love of imperfect people. Nobody's perfect and storybook romance doesn't last long...<BR>Otherwise, princess, why would you have to marry 4 times?<P>His Wife, Cali<P>BTW-Did he share with you our 'last' night's activities?<P>

Just a person,<P><B>I just wanted to share that I was looking for discussion, not judgement, hypocracy, hatefulness, and ill informed opinions</B><BR>Most of this is not “discussion.” It is people trying to save a marriage using proven techniques.<P><B>Youa ll talk about the plans A&B, lets call them what they are _ MANIPULATION- this is what you use when you discipline your kids, not what you use on someone you supposedly love. It is for todlers, not for adults. Is that how you want your spouses back? Through tricks?</B><BR>How is it “tricks & manipulation” by treating someone you love with kindness!<P><B>I have been both W and OW and have never seen the truth in making soemone be in a marriage or relationship that they did not want to. I have seen you all write about vows and commitments. I agree.</B><BR>What exactly do you agree with? You obviously do NOT know much about “vows & commitment.”<P><B>On the other hand, you can't make someone feel some way they do not.</B><BR>Then no matter what we do will not influence them. If they decide to come back into the marriage, then it wasn’t “tricks & manipulation“, was it?<P><B>Is it better to be with someone than no one?</B><BR>That is a proven fact!<P><B>Like my name says, I'm just a person, one voice, I just wanted to share that I was looking for discussion, not judgement, hypocracy, hatefulness, and ill informed opinions.</B><BR>Then why do you post and say we are a bunch of losers? Why don’t you post something worth discussing. Like the relative merits of marriage vs. singlehood. The merits of marriage in general vs. the merits of interfering with a marriage (via an affair.)<P>Do you want to discuss something or just stir up a pot of wrath? People here are hurting & you are NOT doing them or yourself any good.<P>Perhaps if you would not cut people down because of a decision they have made (which is NOT illegal, immoral or wrong in any aspect) then you may cause something good to come from your contribution to this forum (& society in general.)<P><B>I can take whatever you can give.</B><BR>So? What do we care? No. We feel sorry for you ‘cause it sounds like you got & gave as good as you got (screwed over by a spouse) and learned absolutely NOTHING from it except resentment, bitterness, hatred and a vile attitude towards youself and everyone around you.<BR>If you just wanna cause trouble, go elswhere.<P>If you wanna discuss, then discuss.<P>But learn how to use a spell checker, ‘cause as an adult (if you are), your spelling is crap! (At least 14 errors)<BR>Now go ahead & call me names.<P>You’re clueless but we got recipes!<P> Torta Montezuma, Montezuma's Sandwich<P>Recipe By : James W. Peyton, El Norte, The Cuisine of Northern Mexico<BR>Serving Size : 4 Preparation Time :0:00<BR>Categories : Cookbook Mexican<BR> Chicken<P> Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method<BR>- -------- ------------ --------------------------------<BR>6 tablespoons olive oil<BR>1 pound chicken breast -- boneless and skinless<BR>1/4 cup dry white wine<BR>1 onion -- chopped, about 1 1/2 cups<BR>2 cloves garlic -- minced<BR>3 poblano chiles -- peeled, seeded, and thinly sliced or coarsely chopped<BR>1 pound tomatoes -- peeled, seeded, and<BR> finely chopped<BR>1/2 teaspoon salt -- or to taste<BR> -- Cooking oil to fry tortillas<BR>12 corn tortillas<BR>3 eggs -- beaten<BR>3/4 pound asadero cheese<BR> -- or mozzarella cheese, grated<BR> -- Shredded lettuce and chopped tomato for garnish<P>Preheat the oven to 425 degrees F. Heat a skillet over medium-high to high heat, add 3 tablespoons of the olive oil, and saute the chicken until it is turning golden brown on both sides. Turn the heat to low, add the wine, cover and simmer until the chicken is cooked through, about 3 to 5 minutes or more, depending on the thickness of the chicken. Remove the pan from the heat and when the chicken is cool enough to handle, shred it, reserving the pan juices.<P>Heat a saucepan over medium heat, add the remaining 3 tablespoons olive oil, and saute the onions until they are just golden brown, being careful not to scorch them. Add the garlic and continue cooking for 1 minute. Add the chiles, reserved pan juices from the chicken, and the tomatoes. Cook until the chiles are soft and the sauce has begun to thicken, about 5 minutes or more depending on the water content of the tomatoes. Then, add the salt, remove the pan from the heat, and stir in the shredded chicken.<P>Pour 1/2 inch cooking oil into a skillet just large enough to accommodate the tortillas. Heat the oil until a drop of water sputters immediately One at a time, using kitchen tongs, dip the tortillas into the beaten egg, drain well, and fry to soften the tortillas and cook the egg, turning once. This should take just a be seconds on each side. The tortillas will be very soft so be careful not to tear them. Drain the fried tortillas on absorbent towels.<P>To assemble the tortas, place one cooked tortilla on each of 4 ovenproof serving plates. Top each tortilla with a little of the chicken /vegetable filling, then sprinkle on some cheese. Add the second and third tortilla and fillings in the same manner so that the third tortilla is topped with the remaining chicken/vegetable filling and cheese. Bake the tortas until the cheese is melted and turning golden on the top, about 8 minutes. Serve garnished with shredded lettuce and chopped tomato. <p>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited July 02, 2001).]

This is STL from ringside in a tremendous heavyweight bout ... Cali in the light trunks, circles left ... jab, jab, jab ... stiff right cross ... seems Princes Jap, in the dark trunks, is rocked back on her heels and is clinching (cliche-ing?) ... <P>Ding Ding Ding ... saved by the bell ... we will be back after these commercial words for round two ...<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Folks,<P>I think that this is another "drive by posting". <P>Just a person, we'd love to hear more from you.<P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Z:<P>And here we thought only Roswell, NM has drive by postings from the Mothership. Area 57, anyone ... or is that Heinz 57? Area 51? Car 54?<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL<BR>[Dang, girl, we've got to start looking at who's name is in the UserName box]<p>[This message has been edited by zorweb (edited July 02, 2001).]

You are a writer in LA?<P><B> red </B> read<BR><B>pathethic </B> pathetic<BR><B>builfer. </B> builder<BR><B>imature </B> immature<BR><B>gving </B> giving<BR><B>imature </B> immature<BR><B>shildren, </B> children<BR><B>muders, </B> murderers<BR><B>Youa ll </B> You all<BR><B>lets </B> let's<BR><B>todlers, </B> toddlers<BR><B>soemone </B> someone<BR><B>wht </B> what<BR><B>possibbly </B> possibly<P>Diva<P><p>[This message has been edited by Diva (edited July 02, 2001).]

Diva:<P>Most assuredly they are:<P>red ... as in reddin' ritin' an' rithmatic, of course<P>pathethic ... yes, the spelling is surely that<P>builfer ... dyslexic dingers?<P>imature ... I mature too, but don't brag none on it<P>gving ... is the v silent?<P>imature ... and you are redundant, too<P>shildren ... slurring when drunk is not uncommon<P>muders ... hello muders, hello faders, here I am at Camp Granada<P>Youa ll ... a lengthy southern LA drawl, I take it (Compton, perhaps or Bellgardens?)<P>lets ... four letters that follow toi<P>todlers ... who needs the extra d anyway?<P>soemone ... Sulaemon?<P>wht ... perhaps this comment was directed at WAT<P>possibbly ... possibly, just might be, a typo<P>But this is just my opinion, after all<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL<p>[This message has been edited by SeenTheLight (edited July 02, 2001).]

seen the light:<P>thank you so much for your humor, it has done so much to brighten my day.<P>i haven't laughed so hard in a long time....maybe it was<BR>time. <P>even though i do not especially like the content of Just a person's letter, it has brought a little happiness to someone who needed to laugh. <P>See? and we thought she didn't have anything to offer!!!!<P>truthfully, though...we are like an extended family. I get much comfort from coming here and just being able to vent and share my problems...just like i do with family and friends. from being on both sides of the fence, you sure don't act like you know what it is to be a betrayed spouse.<BR>did your H have an affair and you said "okay. i don't want to be a miserable loser so i will let you go. <BR>okay...bye bye now. bye bye."<P>I hardly think that was how the movie played. i think that now you might be OW and want MM and want MMW out of the way. is that your story?<P>to most of you out there, my extended family and friends:<BR>(and that is what most of you are) thanks for the laughs and thank you for your support. (now i sound like an old wine commercial....thank you for your support!)

bluegirl:<P>In all things there is a potential silver lining (although many times you have to REALLY dig to find it): glad that the humor herein gave you a much-needed boost.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Just A person, should be JUST A OW! Spoken like a true OW. Her post just screams it.

STL, you have a great sense of humor! I just think it's also kind of funny that they come on here, badger us and then doesn't come back to reply to any of our post. I guess they think that it hurts our feelings when they come on here and say those things to us. In all reality we laugh hystericaly. They really don't give marriage builders a chance. They just read what they want to read and then put us down in there lame terms.