Fairdyst...It seem like you are desperately looking for validation to end your marriage and justification for your affair. <P>snl....I have been accused of this, maybe is true, but don't think so. I don't need validation or justification, I just need to understand all this stuff....and be able to reconcille my feelings with my cognition.<P>"You made a commitment, you have children, you need to go home and MAKE it work." She was steaming mad when she left.The last thing she wanted was to make it work. Then she said she suddenly realized he was right. <P>snl...yes, cause she had children. And not knowing rest of issues is hard to say, but sounds like she was just angry, that is not what it is always about. In any event, she decided it was what she wanted, so the feelings where there.<P>But none of this "Woe is me, I now have to live in a passionless, joyless marriage boo hoo." She was determined to make it work and make it happy and good. She said the first few months were really hard, and then the love started to come back. She never regrets for one minute going back to her marriage. <P>snl...of course no regrets, cause it worked, and if it hadn't?<P>fd...Marraige shouldn't be about living a miserable life just because you got married. It should be about making it better so that you can be happy. That of course sometimes takes a tremendous amount of effort which the majority of people arent' really willing to expend.<P>snl...How do we decide how much "work" is enuf, one could literally devote the rest of their life (max work) to something that never works... is that the standard? You see, that is the problem. We all have our notion of where the line is drawn, and depending on which side someone else falls, we condemn or validate them.<P>To me fog is seeing someone you have known for years suddenly become an alien person. Their behaviors change, their personality changes. My H's own brother said of my "fog" H, "I have no clue who this person is, but he certainly isn't the person I have known my entire life." A person in the fog tries to convince himself of anything that fits his current state. LOTS of revisionist history goes on. Also lots of grasping at straws. When my H first started his A he was desperately trying to pin something on me to absolve his behavior. The best he could come up with is "Remember that time when we were dating and you told me to F off?"<P>snl...yes, I see lots of fog about, enuf so I worry a bit. But I think my perception is no more tainted than my wife who seems to think now it never was too bad, and all her threats to divorce me, and how useless I was were just minor bumps in the road, and I should have known she wasn't serious, just upset........uh, hello in bs fog land.<P><BR><<We often marry in youth, people regularly misrepresent themselves (called putting best foot forward), have unresolved psychological baggage they bring, have our own ignorance about who we are, deliberately omit imformation about ourselves (particularly if we think it will cost us the relationship), and so forth and so on.>>><P>ROFL. Can't you see how affairs fall into this statement? Talk about misrepresentation and putting the best foot forward! Boy oh boy did my H learn the hard way from his OW (after he moved in with her) exactly how much people really do misrepresent themselves.<P>snl....true enuf, and probably why many affairs are not about love in the end. But same is true of marriages, so if we say affairs lead to bad outcomes, then so do marriages. <P>Faireydust...I'm really sorry to see how you feel about marriage. It's depressing, but not surprising. We do live in a throwaway society where marriage is nothing more than a piece of paper to so many. Fixing a marriage is hard work. <P>snl....You seem to have the attitude I am trying to get a handle on. What is it about marriage that makes people think it must be preserved at all costs? Why should it be hard work, clearly it is not equally hard for all, and quite enjoyable for some, why celebrate it requiring hard work. If the work is very hard, perhaps that means it should end? Maybe it is such hard work, cause so many marriages are poor matches? Maybe it is not a throwaway attitude at all, but a consequence of poor mate selection.<P>fd....Much harder than jumping into a new and exciting relationship. <P>snl....Another thought is that if one learned from the first marital experience they are much better equipped to make a better second choice (and their exspouse likewise, could be a blessing for all...right?). <P>fd.,...I don't think you will find the justifications you seek on this site, but I do hope you will find some food for thought. If you are determined to end your marriage then you will do so. Hopefully you will do a lot of soul searching as to what went wrong, why you were morally able to consider adultery as acceptable, why didn't you try to fix things before it got to that point etc. People are often doomed to repeat their past mistakes and the grass is usually not greener.<P>snl....true enuf, and a lot of fixing has been attempted over the years. Lots of soul searching going on now, adultery is not acceptable (just inevitable often enuf). And hopefully anyone at this point is doing their homework so will not repeat past mistakes.<P>zorweb.....OK, so your main thread here is why should you and your wife remain married.<P>snl...yes.<P>Z...Did you feel passion for your wife when you married her? If not why did you marry her? <P>snl....No. To make a long story short she was the first woman I ever slept with, I did so intending to marry her. We subsequently did not marry for 3 years, and had a strained relationship (broke up several times), but I felt responsible for her (she also had low self-esteem). I felt obligated, and I am a "fixer" as well, so although I was far from passionate, I figured somehow it would work out.<P>Z...While I do believe that it does matter whom you are married to, I assume that your wife is a person who is some reasonable fit for you or you would not have married her in the first place.<P>snl....True, she has traits I admire (and need), and a kind of vulnerability that triggers my protective circuits. <P>Z....You will never know if you wife is your true “soul mate” unless you allow her into your heart (read love bank).<P>snl...I tried early on, and she trashed me (so to speak), I am very reluctant (if not incapable of), emotionally trusting her. That is part of the problem.<P>Z...Remember that the “fog” or as you call it “temporary insanity” is because the WS is lying, cheating, and behaving in a manner inconsistent with the person we thought we knew. It is not because they are having an emotional struggle. I is because they are behaving in a manner we believed they were incapable of. <P>snl....That just means you did not know your spouse very well. There are no aliens, or worms, or anything else. Everything we all do is perfectly consistent and predictable, if you know someone well enuf. And it is an emotional struggle....(or maybe a giver/taker struggle as I am learning).<P>Z...According to Harley love in a marriage is conditional. We only love our spouse while there is a positive balance in our love bank. I believe that to be true. I believe that what I promised is that I will do everything in my power to make our marriage and my love last a lifetime. I only hope I have the strength and fortitude to do this. I also hope that STL can too. I feel that I can because in the 20 yeas I was with my XH (living together and then married) despite all the terrible times, I know that I could have loved him again if he were willing to work on things with me. The capability is there. It only needs to be nurtured.<P>Z....Until you make a cognitive CHOICE to recover your love for your wife and the both of you work on things together you will never know if it is possible. From what I’ve seen of your posts, you are out to prove that you are right; that you cannot feel passion for your wife. As long as you take that stance you will not be able to.<P>snl....I am often misunderstood. I seek truth, and I seek it vigorously. That means I will ask any question, pursue any theory, and folks often think what they see is how I will choose, that is often not the case. Careful with assumptions. Further I do not need validation, rationalists care little what others think (of them), they care about truth, then they act on it. I am now in the midst of making decisions that will affect the rest of my life, my wifes life, and various other people, I intend to get it right.<P>Z...I’m curious, have you shared the MB material with your wife? If not please do so that she can grow emotionally and move on with her life.<P>snl....Yes, I did so immediately. She does not like posting to strangers much, but has a few posts, she is "thinker". We also have talked with jennifer 1/2 dozen times, and I have asked her the same things I do you here.<P>Z....One thing I keep asking myself when I read your posts it "why is this man holding on to his professed lack of love for his wife so strongly? Why is he bought into it so strongly that he cannot see the light of day? “<P>snl....I am not holding onto it exactly. I just know we have been unhappy a very long time, and I don't want a bandaid fix. Nor do I want to give hope to my wife if we will never have that passion, so I am looking at all this very hard, before making any permanent decisions. And yes, that is an inevitable consequence of my feelings for ow too. <P>z....The only thing that comes to mind is that people will hold on to pain as long as they are getting a benefit from it. It becomes a tool. <P>snl....Ah, Dr Phil would say the same, we do nothing without a percieved benefit. I agree, not sure what my tool is, perhaps keeps the distance I need to assess where I want to go.<P>Z...Perhaps a tool to punish your wife for all the things you are angry with her for. <P>snl...I am not angry at her. And I have tried to tell her my issues, but she has a hard time listening, one of our problems. But the harley's are good at refereeing that, and the process has interested me, she has changed some, just not sure it will be permanent.<P>Z...You are not the victim being forced to stay in a loveless marriage. Now you are justified in your cold position towards your wife. What power you get from this. You can control her by keeping her on emotionally unstable ground. <P>snl....Yes, a sociopath could use this to their great advantage. I am not a sociopath, and her unhappiness grieves me deeply. In fact it takes all my willpower to keep trying to find the truth, when 1/2 the time I just want to give in and do whatever she wants so I won't feel guilty (and make her happy), but that would be a bad choice.<P>

Yes, I am the wife of Sad_n_lonely. I am in turmoil.I have been reading my H posts, and it saddens me. I married my H with passion and love. He did not, he should of been honest from the start, more lies. This is not the man I married and it causes me great discernment. We have not been really counseling with Jennifer, cause H has not got rid of the OW yet. Jennifer told him at one time, to not talk with her until he has done hurdle one (get rid of OW). Last Wednesday he told me it was over, we had an appointment with Jennifer Harley that night. I was hoping this was true. He talked to Jennifer for 40 min. and I talked for 20 min. Then we talked together with Jennifer. She asked him if it is over and he said a little bit more to do. H has been saying this for 2 months. Jennifer was not happy with the outcome and talked to me privately. I needless to say had a tough time living, I wanted to die. We have not done the books and tapes together, Jennifer said not until H is ready to get rid of OW. So counseling with Jennifer is just talk on H part and that is about all. He doesn't protect me like he should, poja has not been followed through thoroughly, but he will protect the OW, she has not told her H of the affair. The affair started in June 2000, and I guess her husband asked her very recently if she is having an affair and she said no. This is her second affair she has had. OW H needs to know, that his wife is lieing and having an affair. My H protects the OW by not telling himself to her H that he is having an affair with his wife. My H says give her time to get herself together and hopefully she will tell in due time. H said 2 to 3 months. What about the year plus months they have had the affair? H has to protect the OW. I sit here in turmoil and the OW husband just sits there and know nothing is happening. Will my H just be OW dirty secret and her H will never know?<P>Yes the marriage was not good, but there was love and careach other. I feel we would have a good marriage, but H does not open his heart and want me in. He has only room for Debi. Jennifer told us to not talk about H statements about marriage, cause it does upset me. But H still talks and sort of got angry with me last night cause he said, who am I to talk to, you won't listen (he does not protect me), I said Jennifer told us not to talk about this subject at this time, cause of the effect it puts on me. My H is so in love with this OW, they were talking of dating and marriage. H does not want to date me now, says we have nothing to talk about and nothing in common to do. We did fill out the activity questions and there is a lot we have in common. We dated for quite awhile and found many things to do that was really fun. One he was active in keeping in shape, we met each other in a Run For Your Life Class. It consisted of running, excersizing, playing volleyball afterwards. It was a lot of fun, and H seemed to really enjoy it. We used to walk in the park alot, visit friends, watch TV, go to movies, listen to music, read. H sits on the computer many hours a day, not only I don't care for it, but the kids say dads on the computer again. H tells me he needs the interaction with all of you, I hope he gets the help he needs. <P>I am committed to this marriage, and know it would work if H would open his heart and put a full effort into it. Jennifer has repeadedly told us that it would work, but we both have to put full throttle forward. H is sitting in idle deciding which way to go. I asked him the other night who does he want me or OW. He doesn't know. Therefore, I am about ready to leave. It should be the WS that leaves, but I am so stressed out. We had a family meeting with kids the other day, and our 19 year old daughter told dad you yell at mom a lot, and make her cry alot. She is very sensitive and is rebelling against her dad. But she does love her dad very much! This is not a happy home or one that anyone wants to be here. Yes I cry a lot, I am under a great amount of stress with this marriage, H affair, the OW, and my dad is quite ill. Father had 4 mini strokes about 2 months ago and is causing my mother to be stressed out. I am very close to my father, and he now criticizes people for doing things (myself included) and he was never like that. The Dr. said the stroke causes this. So I get critized and rejected by my father and my husband. <P>Where does a human say enough is enough. I am only human and have feelings that are not getting met. H gets his EN met by the OW and some by myself. Where do I get needs met, I take care of our business, do the paperwork, take calls, dispatch service calls, and do the business papers plus the financial papers. I was a nurse until I injured my R arm and had 2 surgeries on it. I am limited to 10# of lifting and therefore am not able to return to the profession. H does give me some EN, but I know he is fulfilling OW EN and wanting to give it all to her. <P>I am the organized person in this family, keeping all the records straight, appointments kept, putting up charts for chores, banking, books, and etc. H has repeadedly told me I do a good job. But when something does not get done because I overlooked it or forgot, he belittles me and tells me he is not capable of keeping these things straight and tells me to not let it happen again. Where is the protection to me (his wife). Why couldn't he say in a nicer manner that Honey I know you are doing a good job, this (whatever) needed to be done by whatever time. Maybe we could troubleshoot to find out how this can be corrected. Jennifer told us to talk to each other in a protective caring and thoughtful manner. It is hard, but I am trying very hard. I also want to talk to Husband and call him a intimate name (Lil Bear) to tell him this is the husband that I married and that is what he reminds me of. A little bear who needs lots of hugs, kisses, love, caring and protecting. He is my 'Lil Bear' and I would love to be there for the rest of our lives to take care of him. <P>As far a religion, we don't agree. I married with vows to God to cherish and take care of each other till death does us apart. H does not believe in it and that also hurts me. I am a christian and I believe God has put me in the path to find out about the affair. H has even said, why do you seem to be in the right place at the wrong time? God is helping me to protect my H. <P>There is much you do not know about our marriage, but I will end here. Yes I am reading the books on MB with Jennifer counseling me. I am trying to do plan A, and I am seriously thinking of leaving so H can decide what to do. He has flat out stated he will not leave. I am going to talk to Jennifer this Thursday appointment to tell her my feelings. I am so stressed out and can feel the toll this experience has put on my body. Therefore, I think I am about to leave to get unstressed. Talking with Jennifer is much needed this Thursday. Unloved and Lonely and depressed wife of Sad_n_lonely.

Hi there Sad n Lonely's W,<P> You could have been me 2 years ago.....it hurts to even read your posts. It's good to see the "other" side of Sadn Lonely's posts. I ,like you am a RN, a fixer, very organized with the finances, etc.<P>The only thing that worked for me was Plan B....(I was in bad shape like it sounds you are) and it really helped me and also my H to see what life without me would be back.<P>The good news is we are together and things are getting better each day. Once contact with the OW was cut (we moved, my stipulation for recovery) things changed. Hang in there , I know how you feel.....your H is deep, deep in the fog(sorry Sad n Lonely, that's how I see it)........LU<P><BR>

<<<snl...yes, cause she had children. And not knowing rest of issues is hard to say, but sounds like she was just angry, that is not what it is always about. In any event, she decided it was what she wanted, so the feelings where there.>>><P>She was angry, but she basically MADE herself angry to justify her affair. Her H had done nothing to deserve her anger. She was similar to my H in that she was later diagnosed wiht depression and she was having her own life crisis. Although she was young she decided she was too young to be married and wanted to be out partying with the single people and have no commitments.<P><<In any event, she decided it was what she wanted, so the feelings where there.>>><P>You are missing my point on this. It was NOT what she wanted. It was the last thing she wanted. What she wanted was a divorce. But she made the decision to make it work even though she didn't want to. She told me that walking back into that house after making that decision was the hardest thing she ever did, she just wanted to run away. But she started putting in effort (her H was already doing his own Plan A) and things soon started to click again.<P><<snl...of course no regrets, cause it worked, and if it hadn't?>><P>If it hadn't worked they would be divorced..<P><<snl...How do we decide how much "work" is enuf, one could literally devote the rest of their life (max work) to something that never works... is that the standard? >><P>That is a hard question. I don't know how long is "long enough". For people who dont' want to expend the effort a day is too long.<P>>>snl...yes, I see lots of fog about, enuf so I worry a bit. But I think my perception is no more tainted than my wife who seems to think now it never was too bad, and all her threats to divorce me, and how useless I was were just minor bumps in the road, and I should have known she wasn't serious, just upset........uh, hello in bs fog land.>>><P>I really dont' know what to tell you there. It sounds like you have a point IF what you are saying is the honest truth and not revisionist history. Many, many wandering spouses come up with stuff that isn't necessarily true, even though they often believe it. My sister found out her exH told his OW that my sister had pushed for marriage which was TOTALLY untrue. She wanted to wait and he literally begged her to get married sooner (and she has the countless letters to prove it!) because he "couldn't live one more day without her being his wife." My best friend and my H both practiced revisionist history. Funny thing is that when the "fog" cleared so did their memories. So that is why I have to take the word of WS with a grain of salt. It may be true, maybe not... If what you say is true your marraige has been in deep trouble for a long time, many of our experiences are quite different. But that still doesn't excuse adultery. <P>>>snl....You seem to have the attitude I am trying to get a handle on. What is it about marriage that makes people think it must be preserved at all costs?>>><P>Not at all costs. But I did make a commitment for life and when I make a commitment I will give my all to keep it. If my children turn out to be delinquents I won't stop loving them. I will do whatever I can to help them and will love them regardless. When my pets becoem ill I get treatment for them. Lots of people say "Why not just put him to sleep and get another one?" Kind of like adultery lol. <P><<Why should it be hard work, clearly it is not equally hard for all, and quite enjoyable for some, why celebrate it requiring hard work. If the work is very hard, perhaps that means it should end?>>><P>Putting a marriage back together is hard work. That only makes sense. After that it does take conscous maintenance to keep things going strong. It is extremely easy for people to take each other for granted in a long relationship. Bills, kids, errands, work all get in the way and can become the focus of life if you don't realize what is happening. Then the couple start to drift apart. Then all of a sudden it's like "Uh oh, what happened. Who is this person?" Then there is hard work to be done. The rest is daily maintenance, but you still have to work at it. H and I schedule a weekly date night. It would often be much easier to either not go out or take the kids, but we need that time together as a couple. We always email each other during the day just to say "I love you" even though it would be easier not to stop and do that, but just got about our daily routines. I always remember to thank him for things like taking out the trash and he thanks me for cleaning the kitchen. These are things we have to do anyway, it would be much easier not to think about it and not to show our appreciation. That's what I mean about work in a marriage. To keep things going well you have to make a conscious effort every day. It wasn't always like that with us, but once we both learned to put in a little work it has become really wonderful.<P><<Maybe it is such hard work, cause so many marriages are poor matches? Maybe it is not a throwaway attitude at all, but a consequence of poor mate selection.>><P>Sure people make poor mate selections. That should become pretty evident in the first 2 years you are married. Unless your mate later decided to become a drug addict, abusive etc. I just don't buy people saying "I knew 20 years ago that we shouldn't have gotten married." But yet he/she is still there 20 years later. I always start to have "revisionist" suspicions. In many, many cases it is a throwaway attitude. There is very little stigma attached to divorce nowdays, therefor little incentive for people to figure out what went wrong and how to fix it. Easier to bail, and today's society is all about what is easy. One woman told me (after her third divorce). "Anymore for me getting divorced is like running an errand" and she laughed! When my sister got her dissolution she said there were tons of couples herded like cattle into a huge courtroom. Then the judge would say "Do you both agree that this marriage is irretrievably broken?"They would say "Yes" and he stamped the papers. The day she was there 3 of these cattle drives were scheduled. <P>>>snl....Another thought is that if one learned from the first marital experience they are much better equipped to make a better second choice (and their exspouse likewise, could be a blessing for all...right?).>><P>Lol, come on, admit it. You got this from the "Cheaters Official Handbook to justifications" right. I have yet to encounter a WS who didn't say this exact same thing! Also popular on OW boards is the old chestnut "His wife should just set him free so we can be happy and she can find the love she deserves." Ah, such concern for the BS. Twist things to make the affair beneficial for the BS! Though it can be a blessing. I know a man who divorced his W for an OW. She lost an alcoholic, neglectful husband. She got almost everything (she made ridiculous demands, just hoping for half, he gave her everything because he didnt' want his dirty laundry aired in court since he was a corporate attorney). He married his OW, they were divorced in less than a year. The W met and married a wonderful, kind and loving man and they are very happy, years later. In her case it was a blessing.<P><<<snl....true enuf, and a lot of fixing has been attempted over the years.>>><P>Then why didn't you get out before? Why try to use cheating as an exit? If it was really so bad, and you tried so much to fix it then why didn't you leave a long time ago? BEoing betrayed is so much harder on the BS than it would be if the WS said (WITHOUT cheating!) "We have really worked on things and it's not going to work spo we need to go our separate ways." If it is that bad why do you need a backup person to leave?<P><<Lots of soul searching going on now, adultery is not acceptable (just inevitable often enuf).>><P>That is like saying "If someone makes you angry enough it is inevitable that eventually you will murder him." The fact that you are not repentant about your infidelity means that in your mind it is acceptable, and you are definitely justifying it to yourself. So why woudl it not be acceptable in your next marriage if the going got tough?<P>And now my questions for you - Do you really think that 2 adulterers can build a good marriage on the foundation of the beginnings of their relationship? Lies, deception, causing pain to others, secrets etc. What will happen at the first sign of trouble? Who will run to the arms of another first? How can there ever be trust? What happens if things aren't always perfectly easy breezy? Wouldn't you be embarassed to tell other how you got together? Just curious.<P>I wanted to add (since I am so long winded this mornign lol) I saw in another of your posts you mentioned couples you know " whose passion never wavers over the years". What romance novel do you live in? ALL relationships wax and wane somewhat over the years. Sometimes maybe it's just a day or two here and there. I used to work with a woman who had been married for many years to her HS sweetheart. They seemed like the "perfect" couple. I mentioned this to her once and she laughed and said "It really is wonderful but everyone has their moments. We have fights occasionally, we have our days where we just want the other one out of our hair, days where we get on each others nerves. Anyone who expects marriage to be perfect is in for a big letdown." I'll never forget those words. Now I know she was right. If romantic perfection is what you seek the only real solution is to just be in a series of 1-2 year relationships. Then, when the limerance chemicals start to wear off (proven scientifically) and the "passion" seems to be waning (as you enter the "attachment" phase) then move on.<P>[This message has been edited by fairydust (edited July 04, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by fairydust (edited July 04, 2001).]

I agree with the last post 100%!!! Why is that so hard for the WS to see?

faireydust.......Thank-you so much for sticking with this, I appreciate your no nonsense replies (although I am not in complete agreement with you....obviously). As I mentioned elsewhere, this is how I do things in my life, I investigate, talk, think, try on different stuff (no I don't mean the A), and gradually I come to a course of action, that is what this is all about. I know I may have used up my allotment of your time so will try to just reply with any new thoughts (not rehash), and summarize...<P>fd...(about sister) Her H had done nothing to deserve her anger. She was similar to my H in that she was later diagnosed wiht depression and she was having her own life crisis. Although she was young she decided she was too young to be married and wanted to be out partying with the single people and have no commitments.<P>snl.....clearly circumstances vary for folks, your sister had other issues, including unreal expectations about life that impacted her choices. The crisis she precipitated was sufficient to get her attention, and had a happy ending. I agree many, probably vast majority of what we label affairs are not about developing a real relationship. Therefore the response of MB, yourself (and what I would say too), about responsibility, honest self-appraisal, a reasonable good-faith effort at marital repair, and so forth is the correct way to proceed for ws (and bs).<P><<snl...How do we decide how much "work" is enuf, one could literally devote the rest of their life (max work) to something that never works... is that the standard? >><P>That is a hard question. I don't know how long is "long enough". For people who dont' want to expend the effort a day is too long.<P>snl...and for people who are fixated on marriage at any cost, will never give up, condemning themselves (and the people around them) to a lifetime of anything from misery, to depression, to simply not being happy, and the psychological consequences of that. One can live a life malnourished too, and we would be upset, everyone needs proper nutrition, but somehow we think the marriage itself is all that counts, and if someone is not flourishing, they must just need an attitude adjustment. The truth lies somewhere in between, and I think probably a hard look at self (dr. phil), along with a hard look at marriage (MB), is a reasonable and healthy standard. Both correct the problems with self, while giving the marital situation a good faith chance. But, IMO the final standard has to be happiness, passion, you should want to be married to this person more than anything else you want, cannot live without them, etc. You may like someone, care about them, respect them, but if you are going to be in an intimate relationship with someone more is required. True, people may settle, and is their choice, security, comfort, and so forth are enuf..... vs the unknowns of being alone, and maybe never finding the passion, but it is clearly a choice, and a legitimate one, hard as that may be for the other spouse (who may feel different). No one thinks sacrificial marriage is a proper solution, the risk we take when we marry is that someday our spouse may have to look us in the eye and say they are sorry, but they just don't want to be here. The policy of radical honesty requires that be expressed, but many will not say it, they will just endure, cause they cannot stand the pain they will cause, and that makes the marriage a lie. Hence my intial question about whether anyone would accept a spouse who cannot say (with enthusiasm) they want to be married to you (regardless of reasons).<P>>>snl...yes, I see lots of fog about, enuf so I worry a bit. But I think my perception is no more tainted than my wife who seems to think now it never was too bad, and all her threats to divorce me, and how useless I was were just minor bumps in the road, and I should have known she wasn't serious, just upset........uh, hello in bs fog land.>>><P>I really dont' know what to tell you there. It sounds like you have a point IF what you are saying is the honest truth and not revisionist history. Many, many betrayed spouses come up with stuff that isn't necessarily true, even though they often believe it. So that is why I have to take the word of WS with a grain of salt. It may be true, maybe not... If what you say is true your marraige has been in deep trouble for a long time, many of our experiences are quite different. But that still doesn't excuse adultery.<P>snl....Yes, it is true, we have not been happy, thinker verified that.....the issue isn't so much revisionism, as it is the future. I understand the grain of salt, but IMO that applies to all parties under stress. And I don't condone or excuse adultery, it is really not relevant one way or another, it is simply a human consequence and a predictable one. The point is it precipitates a crisis<P>>>snl....You seem to have the attitude I am trying to get a handle on. What is it about marriage that makes people think it must be preserved at all costs?>>><P>Not at all costs. But I did make a commitment for life and when I make a commitment I will give my all to keep it. If my children turn out to be delinquents I won't stop loving them. I will do whatever I can to help them and will love them regardless. When my pets becoem ill I get treatment for them. Lots of people say "Why not just put him to sleep and get another one?" Kind of like adultery lol. <P>snl....In other words, as long as it works for you (your beliefs, your line in the sand....right?). The trouble with analogies, and comparisons, they can never match the real thing. The relationship with kids is commonly used, but the dynamics are completely different, and we are hard-wired to support (love if you will) our kids....so our DNA survives. The pets is a new one though, perhaps you will be happy to hear our pets (4 dogs, 2 cats, 1 parrot, 2 guinea pigs, 5 horses) live like royalty for the most part.<P><BR>Fd....Putting a marriage back together is hard work. That only makes sense. After that it does take consciense maintenance to keep things going strong. It is extremely easy for people to take each other for granted in a long relationship. Bills, kids, errands, work all get in the way and can become the focus of life if you don't realize what is happening. Then the couple start to drift apart. Then all of a sudden it's like "Uh oh, what happened. Who is this person?" Then there is hard work to be done. The rest is daily maintenance, but you still have to work at it. H and I schedule a weekly date night. It would often be much easier to either not go out or take the kids, but we need that time together as a couple. We always email each other during the day just to say "I love you" even though it would be easier not to stop and do that, but just got about our daily routines. I always remember to thank him for things like taking out the trash and he thanks me for cleaning the kitchen. These are things we have to do anyway, it would be much easier not to think about it and not to show our appreciation. That's what I mean about work in a marriage. To keep things going well you have to make a conscious effort every day. It wasn't always like that with us, but once we both learned to put in a little work it has become really wonderful.<P>snl....This is the confusing part. Yes, any relationship unattended will suffer, and yes, a polite civil one will do better than a conflicted critical one. But the issue is not this kind of work, it is the motivation, it is the difference between a comfortable accomodation, or "oneflesh". I have become convinced now that marriages come in many flavors, and many are accomodations of one degree or another, and that many of the arguments are contactual in nature. You married this person, they are trying to meet your needs, have cleansed themselves of LB, therefore how can you say you don't want to be married to them. You just are being selfish, in a fog, lazy, have too high expectations, all negative appraisals of ones character. The fact is (I think), people have differing notions on what they expect, and when those expectations differ too much, you have marital disharmony (not even talking here about marriages where one or both have serious personality disorders on top of everything else). The one who wants to leave is always cast as the bad person, and if the precipitating event is an attachment to op (whether they act on that or not), they have no credibilty at all, and are just discounted. Then everyone has their own set of standards re marriage, when you can leave, when you cannot, but no one is right, cuase is about freewill, there are no standards. That leaves only one truth, interestingly it arises out of POJA. A marriage should only continue as long as it is "enthusiastically" chosen by BOTH parties. There needs to be no reason to leave, no fault-finding, no analyisis, just simply one (or both) being radically honest, does not want to be married.<P>fd...Sure people make poor mate selections. That should become pretty evident in the first 2 years you are married. Unless your mate later decided to become a drug addict, abusive etc. I just don't buy people saying "I knew 20 years ago that we shouldn't have gotten married." But yet he/she is still there 20 years later. <P>snl....why don't you buy it? People have reservations about all sorts of things, where to live, what job to take, whether to go to college (and what to study), whether to marry someone, and often years later regret it, and know they chose not with enthusiasm, but to other criteria. Plus with marriage factor in kids, one can be committed to parenting, but not being married forever, they are not the same. So you raise kids, then you can't leave cause now have this long history that says you are just in a fog if not happy, and why did you stay married, catch 22.<P>fd...I always start to have "revisionist" suspicions. In many, many cases it is a throwaway attitude. There is very little stigma attached to divorce nowdays, therefor little incentive for people to figure out what went wrong and how to fix it. <P>snl....I agree, and divorce (and marriage) should be much harder to enter/leave. But I am seeing to it, it is plenty hard enuf (doing the work), so am not a jerk (hopefully).<P>>>snl....Another thought is that if one learned from the first marital experience they are much better equipped to make a better second choice (and their exspouse likewise, could be a blessing for all...right?).>><P>Lol, come on, admit it. You got this from the "Cheaters Official Handbook to justifications" right. <P>snl.....Ouch, I may have erred, but I don't think I my motivations were dishonrable (I truly thought my marriage only existed on paper), but they were ill-advised. Nor will I ever let myself be in such circumstances again.<P>fd....I have yet to encounter a WS who didn't say this exact same thing! Also popular on OW boards is the old chestnut "His wife should just set him free so we can be happy and she can find the love she deserves." Ah, such concern for the BS. Twist things to make the affair beneficial for the BS! <P>snl....ok, ok, even if true (as per example you provided of friend), still is not real useful as part of the process (well, unless bs wants to think so, not appropriate for ws to act on for sure). I accept your chastisement, and will purge that from my fogbank.<P><<<snl....true enuf, and a lot of fixing has been attempted over the years.>>><P>Then why didn't you get out before? Why try to use cheating as an exit? If it was really so bad, and you tried so much to fix it then why didn't you leave a long time ago? <P>snl....cause we had children, and cause I didn't think God allowed it.<P>fd....BEoing betrayed is so much harder on the BS than it would be if the WS said (WITHOUT cheating!) "We have really worked on things and it's not going to work spo we need to go our separate ways." If it is that bad why do you need a backup person to leave?<P>snl....I admit it is difficult to seperate the two events, leaveing and an attachment to op. But life is often messy. In my case (and I think the same for any responsible people), I and the ow, are trying to understand what happened to us, we did not seek this, we were friends first. And both committed to the notion divorce was not allowed. Now we are trying to reconcille our feelings with the reality of our marriages. The future is unknown, but neither of us has asked the other to leave if they don't think it is right...but what we are doing is trying to find the right path in our lives, that is all any of us can do.<P><<Lots of soul searching going on now, adultery is not acceptable (just inevitable often enuf).>><P>That is like saying "If someone makes you angry enough it is inevitable that eventually you will murder him." <P>snl....Hmmm...., true, if you feel threatened enuf.<P>fd...The fact that you are not repentant about your infidelity means that in your mind it is acceptable, and you are definitely justifying it to yourself. So why woudl it not be acceptable in your next marriage if the going got tough?<P>snl....the problem with rationalist is we deal in reality. It serves no useful purpose to focus on repentance, remorse, guilt, or anything else, the event is done, such things happen, even if you never thought would to you. I regret my wife's unhappiness, but does not change the 23 years of marriage and it's state. My feelings were honrable, I was not using the ow, nor I think she me. And no infidelity is not acceptable, and will not happen again. I have learned that even though the emotions may be valid, the consequences of stepping outside societies expectations of behaviour are extreme. After a certain point the emotions will not be denied, and you act on them, knowing that is how you can now be sure would never happen again.<P>fd...And now my questions for you - Do you really think that 2 adulterers can build a good marriage on the foundation of the beginnings of their relationship? Lies, deception, causing pain to others, secrets etc. <P>snl...yes. People have all sorts of things happen in their lives. I think demonizing people who find each other while married is self-serving. However, people who do not do the work to be emotionally honest with existing spouse (and themselves) are no more likely to fail than anyone else.<P>fd...What will happen at the first sign of trouble? Who will run to the arms of another first? How can there ever be trust? <P>snl....If one can never be trusted for acting untrustworthy in past, then no one can be trusted, cause everyone has lied, acted self-serving, been emotionally deceptive at one time or another. Character is composed of many things, one of which is learning from your mistakes. I am personally aware of folks in 2nd or 3rd marriages that are so averse to another divorce they will literally do anything to solve problems (and do).<P>fd...What happens if things aren't always perfectly easy breezy? Wouldn't you be embarassed to tell other how you got together? Just curious.<P>snl....no, not embarrassed at all. I don't expect to be perfect, and though I am reluctant to be thought ill of and will do some avoidance of stuff at times, ultimately I favor truthfullness. Regardless of my future, I expect to be able to say I did the work to insure it was honorable. That means I am resolving (hopefully with integrity) my current marriage first, but the outcome is not pre-determined, it will arise out of the things I have been discussing here.<P>fd....I wanted to add (since I am so long winded this mornign lol) I saw in anothe rof your posts you mentioned couple you know " whose passion never wavers over the years". What romance novel do you live in? ALL relationships wax and wane somewhat over the years. Sometimes maybe it's just a day or two here and there. I used to work with a woman who had been married for many years to her HS sweetheart. They seemed like the "perfect" couple. I mentioned this to her once and she laughed and said "It really is wonderful but everyone has their moments. We have fights occasionally, we have our days where we just want the other one out of our hair, days where we get on each others nerves. Anyone who expects marriage to be perfect is in for a big letdown." I'll never forget those words. Now I know she was right. <P>snl....the word passion gets misused a bit I think, oftentimes people think of the chemical hormonal kind. I don't mean that, I mean you cannot imagine living life without your spouse, they literally become a part of you, and you they.<P>Thx again for your participation.

SNL<P><BR>Snl: yes I have a romantics temperament<P>Zorweb: I would argue that you do not have a romantic/passionate temperament. A romantic/passionate person brings these characteristics to every aspect of their life. A person whose temperament lacks romance/passion sits on the sideline waiting for others to create the romance/passion in their life. This is one of the ways an affair fills the need. An affair is new love, a situation in which even the most stonehearted can temporarily find romance and passion. This is a distinction I have learned thorough years of living and two failed marriages.<P>From what I can you, what you call a romantic temperament is a brooding, melancholy temperament.<P>If you do not have the skills and temperament to sustain an acceptable level of romance and passion in your current marriage then you do not posses the skills and temperament to have these in any relationship. If you do not develop the appropriate skills then any relationship you enter into will eventually suffer the same death. YOUR passion and romance comes from you, not your wife. <P>Snl: “I now understand that simply being safe and comfortable is enuf for many”<P>Zorweb: We all feel love on different levels at different times. For some “safe and comfortable” is enough. It is a good life. I have known people who do not revere passion and romance as it seem an unstable state. I prefer to have it all: safety, comfort, passion, and romance. Why not?<P>Snl: “In one sense marriage is a calculation, settle for the best you can find at hand, or keep looking”<P>Zorweb: All of life is a calculation or compromise if you will. When we choose one road we lose the choice of everything down the other roads. Such is life. No matter what choice we make in life, we could spend plenty of time and effort lamenting all that we gave up. It is your choice to spend your mental and emotional efforts in this great lament you have sunk into. It is of your own making and you stay there of your own choice.<P>If you leave your wife for the OW you will be giving up the things that you get from your wife. There is another loss. And the "passion" will die in time. Your wife seems to be the one in this triangle who can create and maintain passion in herself. Your OW cannot, as evidenced from her current marriage. What you and she have now in your current marriages is what you will have together. Happyness, passion and romance come from within.<P>SNL: “I think this in part is what makes bs so despairing, they were good enuf at one time, now being told they are not (of course much more complicated than that, and most of time bs played a negative role as well).”<P>Zorweb: So this is what makes “bs” so despairing? And what makes you so despairing? This may be news to you, but you are no longer good enough for your wife. She may not verbalize it, but that is part of what she is “despairing” about. YUK…. The way you said this is disgusting. I can feel how you make her feel “thrown away, discarded”. Shivers over this. It is hard to describe to someone who is doing he “throwing away” what it feels like. Perhaps some day you too will have the pleasure of feeling this way. Nothing like experience to teach empathy. You wife is dealing with the reality of her marriage just as you are. She, like most of us, has had no training on how to handle it when a spouse of 23 years says, “I just don’t love you any more. You are not good enough of me anymore.” When you said your vows you promised to love and honor her and to forsake all others until death do you part. We all know that in today’s society divorce is an ever-present option. You did however promise to love and honor her. I am sure that on some level you still love her. We all know that love can and does exist without passion. I believe that you have every intent of leaving your wife. That you will do it as soon as you can find right hook to hang your hat on. You can still show love for her by helping her to develop her own life, to become a better person, to move on.<P>Of course, on the other hand you may be hit with the lightening of passion and love for her again before you actually leave. Since you are not open to that, I doubt it will happen.<P>SNL: “I have seen it in some, a deep passion for each other that never wavers, they literally become one. All else is a settling, an accommodation of sorts. This does not mean it is bad, but it is the reason for affair proofing marriages, cause if you do not have that passion, and become aware of it with another, you will leave. If you have the passion, no need for affair proofing, will never happen, anymore than you would cut off your arm or leg.”<P>Zorweb: You say that you have seen marriages with great passion that never wavers. I believe that if you speak to these people you will find that they have hit on a formula for themselves that keeps that passion alive. They will tell you that their relationship has taken great work. They will also tell you that there have been ebbs and flows. The difference is that they have stumbled on to “the formula” somehow on their own. Their marriages are passionate, romantic and affair proof because they are meeting each other’s emotional needs, not because they are ignoring each other. The MB concepts were built from studying those who had good, passionate marriages.<P>You start out by saying the society and bs use “vows, guilt and other coercive type efforts to keep people in marriages.” Then you go on to say that “..we often are not married to such a person, yet do not leave for the unknown (to risky).” Now which is it? Is it society and your BS who is keep you in your marriage? Or is it fear of the unknown risks? I would venture to guess that it is your fear, and not the other things. The reason I say this is that you have already shown that the vows, guilt and other coercive efforts did not stand in your way. So why do you not leave? It is not others who keep you from leaving. You keep you from leaving… your fear of the unknown keeps you there. Your wife meets some of your needs. If you were to leave her, you do not know if those needs will be met I the long run. She is a known. Just as you blame your wife for the lack of passion/romance you are blaming her for “forcing” you to stay. You have already proven that you will do what ever you dammed well please, that she cannot control you. Oh what power that must have been. Does she have physical chains on you? Are you duct-taped to the bed? Didn’t think so. She cannot keep you in a marriage against your will. Perhaps you need to learn to take full responsibility for the state of your life. Passion, romance and the bravery to act on your convictions will not fall out of the sky and hit you on the head. <P>You seem to have a way of speaking in broad terms, invoking all of society and all of the miserable marriages. This is rhetoric. It has little to do with you and your marriage. That some people would leave if a marital amnesty day were declared is of no surprise. But it also does not justify your passive aggressive and/or conflict avoidance behavior. It’s the old “would you jump off a bridge if your friends did”? Are you going to accept misery and not work on your marriage because so many others chose this route?<P>Z<BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

<P>SNL<P>Thinker says that you will not move out. Why?<P>Since you cannot give her love, respect and protection why will you not at least give her peace?<P>Are you trying to just drive her insane so that some day she will leave you with all of your joint worldly goods? So that you loose as little as possible at her expense?<P>I would hope that if you continue on your current path that you would do the honorable thing and leave, giving your wife peace so that she can get on with her life.<P>Z<P><BR>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare<p>[This message has been edited by zorweb (edited July 04, 2001).]

thinker<P>My heart goes out to you in having to deal with this rhetorical hogwash.<P>I can understand your wanting to move on with your life and protect yourself. SNL is not protecting you, he is not loving you. Someone needs to and I guess at this point it needs to be you. <P>It may very well be Plan B time for you. Why on earth will he not move out? He is the one who no longer wants the marriage. Do you have children at home?<P>My previous marriage was much like yours. I understand the pain you feel.<P>I really do wish you would come here for support. There are many here who understand what you are going through. It is often hard to talk to our friends and family about these things so this I a safe place.<P>Z<BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Dear SNL and Thinker, <P>I give the both of you credit for meeting with Jennifer. But as the old addage goes, you can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink. <P>SnL, you & I have had our opinions shared over these threads before, you know how I feel about someone who chooses friends needs over families. Thinker, you hold a legal, moral and scriptural status and appear to be wanting to hold onto your marriage. <P>I am trying desparately not to take sides. But you see, SNL you are very much like my H. Remember I said that in an earlier post? Thinker, you & I are in very similar situations. <P>Based on the above, I have questions:<P>To SNL: What value or worth do you have to bring to your wife and family?<P>To Thinker: If your H can not be 100% committed to you, will you settle for that or less?<P>To SNL: Would you settle for your W to be less committed to this marriage like you? Is that better for you?<P>To SNL: What can you do more to help your W? Chores, finances, etc.? <P>To Thinker: Can you handle it, if your H did more for you and you did less? Big Giver/Taker question here. <P>To both: Have you read the Giver/Taker book by Dr Harley?<P>I am not asking that you respond to us. Some of those answers are personal. But please consider them among yourselves. <P>You see, that is what H & I are doing right now. I wish you the best in working things out. <P>L.<P><BR>

Zorweb: I would argue that you do not have a romantic/passionate temperament. A romantic/passionate person brings these characteristics to every aspect of their life. A person whose temperament lacks romance/passion sits on the sideline waiting for others to create the romance/passion in their life. This is one of the ways an affair fills the need. <P>snl....think this is a difference of definition, just refering to my temperament, which is also borne out by various psych type tests. No temperament is good or bad, we just need to understand how we each process info, and that also impacts how we interract with each other (for better or worse).<P>z...From what I can you, what you call a romantic temperament is a brooding, melancholy temperament.<P>snl.......nah, I am a happy go lucky sort mostly, but deeply introspective, and compulsively needing to understand stuff in excruciating detail.<P>z....If you leave your wife for the OW you will be giving up the things that you get from your wife. <P>snl...not about leaveing for another, that is not an option, it is dealing with the reality of the one I have.<P>Zorweb: So this is what makes “bs” so despairing? And what makes you so despairing? This may be news to you, but you are no longer good enough for your wife. She may not verbalize it, but that is part of what she is “despairing” about. YUK…. <P>snl....I have asked her that very question. I have always felt not "good" enuf for her, so was surprised when she asked me to stay.<P>z.....The way you said this is disgusting. I can feel how you make her feel “thrown away, discarded”. Shivers over this. <P>snl....I was insensitive? Ok, will look at that, did not want to be so, and am trying hard not to be under difficult circumstances.<P>z....It is hard to describe to someone who is doing he “throwing away” what it feels like. Perhaps some day you too will have the pleasure of feeling this way. <P>snl....I know how it feels, lived with it for years, made me angry and despairing till I finally gave it up to God.<P>z...She, like most of us, has had no training on how to handle it when a spouse of 23 years says, “I just don’t love you any more. <P>snl...she has said the same to me often enuf. None of us has any training, it is indeed a mess.<P>z...You are not good enough of me anymore.” When you said your vows you promised to love and honor her and to forsake all others until death do you part. We all know that in today’s society divorce is an ever-present option. You did however promise to love and honor her. I am sure that on some level you still love her. We all know that love can and does exist without passion. You can still show love for her by helping her to develop her own life, to become a better person, to move on.<P>snl....I am trying to do that, be fair and honorable, while at same time having to acknowledge my feelings, that is what this is all about. Not surprisingly she wants no discussions about helping her be a better person, or moving on.<P>z....Of course, on the other hand you may be hit with the lightening of passion and love for her again before you actually leave. Since you are not open to that, I doubt it will happen.<P>snl....maybe, and I am trying to open up to that, it is difficult.<P>z....You start out by saying the society and bs use “vows, guilt and other coercive type efforts to keep people in marriages.” Then you go on to say that “..we often are not married to such a person, yet do not leave for the unknown (to risky).” Now which is it? Is it society and your BS who is keep you in your marriage? Or is it fear of the unknown risks? I would venture to guess that it is your fear, and not the other things. <P>snl...It is an intense desire not to hurt my wife that motivates me the most. I am not concerned in the least about being alone, I have already been alone for decades.<P>z....Just as you blame your wife for the lack of passion/romance you are blaming her for “forcing” you to stay. <P>snl....I blame my wife for nothing, but she is accountable for her choices (as am I), and the consequences arising therefrom.<P>z....You have already proven that you will do what ever you dammed well please, that she cannot control you. Oh what power that must have been. Does she have physical chains on you? Are you duct-taped to the bed? Didn’t think so. She cannot keep you in a marriage against your will. Perhaps you need to learn to take full responsibility for the state of your life. Passion, romance and the bravery to act on your convictions will not fall out of the sky and hit you on the head. <P>snl....this is a bit contentious, assume is a sore spot for you. Yes, I am responsible for my choices, and no one is making me stay (or go), and I am responsible for my feelings as well, I know that. Once my mind is made up I will act on it, I believe in proactive living. Thx for your comments, and for asking thinker to stay, she needs someone besides me to talk to about these things.<P>

SNl<P>Why don't you move out and let your wife have some peace? You live in a nofault state then JUST DO IT! You are truly insane because insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. You keep posting different versions of the same old b*s and you keep getting the same responses but you continue. HELLOOOOOOOOOOOO you are never going to hear what you want to hear at this site. NEVER NEVER NEVER Is any of that getting thru? No one is going to agree with your bizarre rambling rhetoric. There are sites for creatures like you go there and be among your own kind.<P>

Thinker:<P>First thing is to inform the OW H about the affair. He has a right to know in order to protect himself. Please see a lawyer perhaps you can get Restraining Order or something to force the alien out of the house. In some states you can just change the locks but please check with a lawyer. Maybe you need to file legal separation? Please protect yourself legally and financially because you cannot depend on the alien in any way. Please if at all possible don't you and your children leave your home.

<BR>RE the following:<P>--------------------<BR>Zorweb: I would argue that you do not have a romantic/passionate temperament. A romantic/passionate person brings these characteristics to every aspect of their life. A person whose temperament lacks romance/passion sits on the sideline waiting for others to create the romance/passion in their life. This is one of the ways an affair fills the need. <P>snl....think this is a difference of definition, just referring to my temperament, which is also borne out by various psych type tests. No temperament is good or bad, we just need to understand how we each process info, and that also impacts how we interract with each other (for better or worse).<BR>-----------<P>I suppose that when a discussion gets down redefining common terms, the discussion is over. It can spiral in any direction simply through deflecting the rhetoric. Most of this response says nothing. It’s just rambling. Fill the silent space with words so that no one has a chance to think.<P>Tell me, are you any better at this then Mr. Clinton? Have you decided yet on the meaning of the word “is”?<P>Sorry if I seem harsh here but I agree that you are just talking in circles. At this point I believe someone could tell you that the sky was blue and you’d argue whether over which hue of blue and exactly what is blue anyway.<P>Are you depressed that you are so compulsive about ruminating about this rhetoric? Actually you almost sound manic or depressed. Have you sought help? Ask you wife; she has known you for a very long time. Would she say that you are depressed or manic at this time?<BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Well, it has taken me an hour of sitting here to slog through all this verbiage and rhetoric. Three pages worth! Goodness! I hope everyone is not yet totally tired of this thread. I now have a few comments to make before I go back on the back burner of "lurking." Much of what has been stated (and restated) here is most interesting, if not somewhat troublesome and mundane.<BR>Thinker: First of all, the advice to YOU is DEAD ON. Go right now and tell OW's H about this A. He has the right to know so he can choose his direction carefully, too. None of these players has the right to keep him in the dark when everyone else is choosing "sides" and "directions" for their lives to go next. His reaction may very well make choices clearer for YOUR WH.<BR>Now to you, SnL: <BR><B>When you said your vows you promised to love and honor her and to forsake all others until death do you part. </B><BR>THIS is why we stay commited to our WS's. We MADE VOWS. We didn't just say what we were told we had to, or "felt good" at the time. We stood before "God and these witnesses" and made these vows. We meant them then, and we intended to keep them forever. Part of what's wrong with our society today is that we tell people, "well, of course you meant them THEN, but times have changed, you have changed, and we all understand." HORSEHOCKEY!! (To quote a wonderful old man from M*A*S*H)<BR>This is not just like signing a contract, then you renege and hire an attorney to get out of it. We're talking about entering into an agreement to hold up our end of the bargain with the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE. I intend to take that VERY seriously! lol<BR> Did we let some of the "passion" die from our M's? I know I did, If I had not, my WS would not be living with OW now. But I now know what I could have/should have done differently, and will in the future. I believe mistakes are not FATAL and do not have to be Lethal. I have enough self-respect to backtrack and "fix" the problems without making myself feel like a complete fool.<BR>Secondly, I would like to submit to you a statement made to me many, many years ago by a very (IMO) intelligent man. He said, "Any two people can make a happy marriage. They just have to work at it." I did not understand what he meant at that time. In fact, 20+ years have passed until I only now am learning what he meant. He meant that principles such as the Harley principles must be implemented. If ANY TWO people were thrown together to marry and have a happy marriage (a very real scenario in times past), they would have to work and respect each other in order to remain married in every sense of the word.<BR>Consequently, if you desire to make your marriage a passionate place, full of complete love and desire, you could do it. Both of you. But it would require a complete turn-around of old habits, patterns of behavior, thought processes, and lots of hard work. Not an easy task to be sure. Is it worth it? I HOPE SO!!! Because when my WS returns from his "fog" I intend to do this with him! It sounds to me like somewhere deep inside of both you and "thinker" you want this marriage to be better, but both of you are afraid to have that happen. I'm so sorry. I wish you would both just commit to THREE MONTHS of complete commitment to trying to do this. In fact, one book I've read lately is "Torn Asunder" by Dave Carder. His advice and "couples activities" in the back of the book tells couples exactly what to do to restore their marriages during that 3 month time frame. If after that time, nothing has changed, his advice changes. I'd advise you to get this book, if you have even a SHRED of commitment left to your marriage (even if it's just "for the sake of the children"). <BR>SnL, please GET OVER being SadNLonely and try harder to save your marriage. The guilt and heartache you are heading for in your relationship w/OW will make this time in your loveless (in your opinion) marriage seem like "the good old days."<BR> Thinker, please open up more to your H, try to trust his efforts, and try to remember the Plan A ideals. I think there's a whole lot of love left in there somewhere that neither one of you is admitting to.<BR>Thanks for letting me add my .02 (FWIT)<BR>Lupo<BR>

thinker:<P>I'm very glad that you've been talking with Jennifer: both my wife and I have used her as a counselor (and I used Steve for a year while my wife was having an affair). They're terrific---and she'll be able to help you come up with a plan to deal with your husband. If your depression is getting to be too much, I'd highly recommend that you start on antidepressants soon---they'll take about 2-4 weeks to kick in (you know that), but they'll be able to level out what you're dealing with. <P>I'm sorry for your father. My wife has suffered a couple strokes over the last year, and it's pretty frightening.<P>Your husband is clearly in the "fog" of the affair---and from his posts, I think there's no way that you could possibly afford to divorce him---there seem to be at least 4 or 5 people in his head right now! As with all good Christians who are in an affair, he's happy to rewrite the Bible to his own "personal" behavior book---as well as to chalk up his affair to "true love" and something that God must have given him. My wife did the same. The hope you have is that these affairs aren't based on God---they're not even based on reality. It's bound to flame out sooner or later; and if you stick with the plan you and Jennifer come up with, you'll have the best chance for rebuilding your marriage into something truly magnificant. Hang tight---and God bless.<P>Sad-n-lonely: As your brother in Christ, I'll let you know that you're so full of crap it amazes me that you believe any of this stuff coming out of your mouth (or your fingers). My wife learned the hard way how "true" her affair/love was---after we separated, and she became pregnant by the OM---her life was shattered. Three years later, she's still struggling to forgive herself; although our marriage is much better and continually improving. Take it from someone who has been there---please end your affair immediately, and start working on the program that Jennifer gives you. By continuing this affair, you'll end up hurting your wife, your OW, her husband---but you'll end up <B>destroying</B> yourself. It's not pretty---and if you think recovering a marriage right now is difficult---you don't know difficult.

Hi K,<P> Very well said!.....Is there anyway you can reply to "Hockenheim" on the recovery board(Emotional <BR>Emergency)? He needs a post like this ASAP.<P>Glad you're back among us all! LU

To K and everyone, this is wife of Sad_n_lonely. I have posted as well as my H on another thread, can't remember the title but has BS in it. <P>Yes I and H talked to Jennifer last night. Husband is still communicating with his lover, and Jennifer asked how much more time he needs. He said 4 more weeks, no no no, so we have to talk about it. Jennifer suggested 2 weeks, he can talk to his lover outside of home. Suggested, when he comes in at night, he gives me H cell phone. He takes the phone to bed with him to talk to her during the night. He sleep in different room (his choice). H got pretty ANGRY about that. Said he is being pushed into doing something he doesn't want to do. <P>Everything is on the other thread. <P>I love this man, but am ready to let go. I need to think about myself and the family. This torment is not needed anymore, life continues on. Like Jennifer said it will take 2-3 years after divorce to get through all the pain. Probably not for H, he will be in his lovers arm enjoying life. <P>Snl is a depressed man, I know I am depressed and starting on medication. SNL would never take medication, cause he is not depressed or in the FOG. Jennifer acknowledged last night he is in a deep FOG.<P>Things he has said on the board are exaggerated. Won't go through all of it, to demeaning. Husband has lied to me continuously about the boards and his lover. This is not the man I married. This is the H that is in DEEP FOG. Life goes on and I will post later on. Running a garage sale today and part of tommorrow. Will post then. Thanks for all your help.

SnL, I've been a lurker in this thread, because I haven't had anything substantive to offer. But you've got me thinking. <P>You've been married 23 years, right? So you're probably at least in your mid-40's. These are dangerous years, my friend, and I know because I am 46.<P>I recently read a book, a novel by an Irish writer named Nuala O'Faolain, called MY DREAM OF YOU. This novel was pretty controversial when it came out, because as critic Charles Taylor said in Salon ( <A HREF="http://www.salon.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.salon.com</A> ), "The book is about the unruly, inconvenient persistence of passion as played out on the landscape of the unruly and inconvenient middle-aged body...Many of the best passages deal with Kathleen's affair with a man she meets on her holiday, an Irishman a few years her elder, whose adoration helps her reconcile the sexual desire she has never ceased to feel with her own body, which is settling into the unwanted folds and expanses of middle age...O'Faolain cuts through the cant of writing about middle age, which tends to insist only on either the comfort or the decay."<P>Interestingly, the protagonist in this novel realizes that she and her lover are not Tristan and Isolde, that passion made familiar becomes passion dead, and all that's left is "a life lived wrong."<P>What's interesting about O'Faolain is that she acknowledges that just because we have wrinkles and paunches and rolls of fat encircling our waists, inside our heads there is still that young person who wants that mind-blowing passion, who can't seem to face that maybe that part of our lives is over.<P>Or not.<P>Maybe it just changes. Maybe what we experience in midlife in a long-term marriage is different, but no less rich. I think that marriages repaired using the MB techniques can enter this "different, but lovely" territory. I like to think mine did. <P>SnL, do you really think you're the only person who has trouble facing your own aging? There's a reason most romance novels are written by middle-aged women; because we see an end to that part of our lives, and it's hard to face. So we write what we can't live. The sexual desirability of men isn't as subject to time, so you seek out another woman, perhaps a younger one.<P>Another book I just read, Joe Queenan's hilarious skewering of the baby boom generation called "Balsamic Dreams", talks about the baby boomers having never devised an exit strategy from our youth, and that's what makes us so ridiculous. <P>Both these books touch on some important issues, even though one is fiction and the other humor.<P>SnL, you can follow this passion of yours to its logical conclusion. You can throw away your wife, your life, your kids, for that physical bliss you feel. But it won't make you eighteen again. You'll just be another aging guy with a failed marriage under his belt and diminishing testosterone temporarily put at bay by the excitement of a new face in the sack. Yes, you'll have some mind-blowing sex for a while, but then that will become as old-hat as what you had with your wife. Then where will you be? Will you start the cycle over again?<P>Think about it.

Dazed....... thx for the literary input, but what in the world led you to conclude this is a mid-life sexual crisis?<P>For the record I am 50, my wife is 50, and the ow is 50. So whatever effects being 50 yo baby boomers has, affects all of us more or less equally. Although I can't recall specifically saying what the actual issues are (since I have been more focused on what the heck marriage is in the first place), it is not about sex (which is a couple notches down on my EN list, and has never been a serious problem in itself in the M, more symptomatic re frequency etc.). No my main concern is we don't make each other very happy, pretty mundane, but there it is. There are ancillary emotional issues in how we relate and "see" each other, and anger is an issue with how my wife copes (I guess passive/agression is my mirror issue). Also temperament and expectations clash a lot, in short we don't fit very well.<P>btw....you (and often others) mentioned throwing away ones spouse, life, kids etc. That is highly inflammatory and uncalled for rhetoric. One cannot throw away people no matter how alluring that imagery is. What we do is choose how to behave, and experience the consequences. For me and w, and everyone else, and A and the consequences (reconcilliation or divorce) are the predictable outcomes if one knew enuf about the people involved. Neither is good or bad in absolute sense, either could be the best outcome. The problem is trying to figure that out, and if a good faith effort is done to do so, it is not about throwing anyone away, or trapping anyone into staying (a term I am guilty of using). The goal should be to find out what works best (in an emotional health) sense for the 2 people involved.<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited July 06, 2001).]