I posted twice, I am not thinking clearly this morning. I am so SORRY to have said all I said. I don't know how to edit yet. Please ignore all my statements until I can think clearly and know how to edit. SORRY - thinker<P>Garage sale is going well, try to downsize to move on. Yes this is another way I am helpful to our family, maybe H realizes this too, who knows with the deep fog he is in! I will get back on the computer tonight. Yes my H is emotionally unstable. Wish last night talking to Jennifer would of had a better outcome, but this is life with a wayward spouse that doesn't want his paper wife. See you all tonight.

Hi Thinker:<P>Don't know when I'll get back to the computor today so I'll leave this little note for you now.<P>Please read over the link that Orchid left for you...I reread it and there is some good advise there.<P>You are still trying to educate your WS...take Jennifer's example...she will not deal with him until he has made some indication that he is willing to stop his obsession with OW and begin some effort at restoring your marriage.<P>You are as obsessed with this situation as your WS is with OW...not to say that this isn't understandable but it's not doing you any good. Please...Please...understand that you cannot convince him he needs to give her up...he has to realize that himself....and he very clearly has problems with people trying to tell him what to do. Don't you want to do what is most likely to have some effect?<P>Jennifer will most likely be wanting you to begin to address what is wrong in your marriage...by getting you to do some reflecting on what might be happening in your marriage that has resulted in your WS seeking contact with OW. This is something you can do that might yield some valuable insight...a starting place to begin the process of rebuilding...first yourself and then the marriage.<P>Maybe you're not ready...maybe you're hurting to much...right now you are angry and trying to hurt him...we've all done it...but it never makes you feel any better in the long run...just worse. <P>Faye

Thinker:<P>No need to apologize for what you posted: an honest expression of your current emotional state. Your pain, anguish and love were plainly evident.<P>Alas, until SnL can emerge from the fog, this will continue to erode and eat away at you.<P>Two choices when one reaches that point: Plan B ... no contact and he moves out. Or Plan D, the final and heart-wrenching severance from which there is no return. It is your call to make, for no one can measure the hurt you have borne and how much more you can bear. Plan B allows you to distance yourself and for him to see what life without you is like, while at the same time letting you work on YOU; Plan D is an immediate severance from the pain; but will it provide emotional healing you need and the possibility of salvaging your marriage?<P>No matter what your decision, know that there are those here who are thinking of you and praying for you both.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL<p>[This message has been edited by SeenTheLight (edited July 06, 2001).]

I am reluctant to post this, but nothing to lose I guess, and maybe all this stuff somehow does some good. It is very difficult to communicate with my w on this basis. This kind of interaction pushes me away, and makes me more convinced we really don't get along. It feels like being coerced, browbeat into submission. She knows I don't want to hurt her, and she knows how to make me feel guilty. She also knows I avoid her anger by giving in, it is a toxic pattern between us, but I am not doing so now, and I think it is hard for her to deal with. Making all those comments re the ow are uncalled for, she is not faultless, or without blame (obviously), but she is not the issue, our marriage is. It is frustrating to have that deflected. We have talked about divorce for several years (neither of us wanting to live like this), in hindsite we should have got off our lazy behinds and did so, saved a lot of anguish.<P>W has not disclosed that both marriage counselling and pastoral counselling has cautioned her repeatedly about critical behaviuours. Nor has she disclosed marriage counsellor told her she is emotionally abusive. We have a long-term highly destructive emotional relationship, have been in a state of marital withdrawal for many years. My W had serious family of origin issues which interferred with her bonding to me, and she typicaly takes the woe is me victim role. None of this is my fault, it is her stuff. So yes, I have my issues too, but on the whole she got a whole lot more than she gave (emotionally), she always knew she had a husband, I never knew what I had, or whether I was worthy of her (or anyone) loving me. According to her, and everyone she knew, including my own mother, my kids, and anyone else she could quote (most recently jennifer), I am just a flat out loser. Her criticisms may not been the in your face kind, she always had her "legitimate" reasons for showing me the error of my ways, and should you dare to defend yourself, she could trot out as much evidence as she needed, even make up some if really pushed. She rarely apologizes for anything (can do no wrong), and my idea of a good day at home was one where she didn't get mad about something. But of course this is all moot, cause I the defective husband caused it all, and she was the poor overworked victim. Interestingly she calls me the controller, neglecting to mention the flat-out (when gentle hints failed miserably) confrontation with counsellor (who saw us dozens of times) who told her in no uncertain terms who the controller was (and I STILL, had to restrain myself from jumping to her defense, and that I qualified for battered wife syndrome, except I was male). I have excused my w for years, trying to keep peace in the home, and sheild the kids from this kind of interpersonal role modeling, but ultimately I failed. There is a psycholgocial truth in relationships, that the one more willing to wield anger has the control (you have seen a small sample today), and boy is that true. As stubborn, and analytical as I am, and thinking I had learned to deal with this (emotionally), I was soooooo wrong, and had no idea how vulnerable I was to someone who cared, and was not angry, and found me of value. This is not about an A, no it is about a lot more than that, it is about emotional survival, and trust. MB requires you to open up and be vulnerable, I am finding myself extremely reluctant to do so, it hurts too much when it is used against you, as it has been throughout my wifes posts here. So rally around her, is ok, she is hurting, but realize when you belittle me you are giving her more ammunition, and believe me she uses it.

Hey SnL:<P>Yes, for almost the first time I can see some vunerability in you. And that actually is a good thing because it makes you seem more real. I really didn't see that much in your wife's post that should have upset you...it was mostly a rant about OW....and I myself have said similar at times...and certainly you can understand how left out and alone she feels now.<P>Now, I always think there is a little truth to what the WS is saying when he is discussing the A...not necessarily the OW herself but the reasons for the affair....and try to point out to the BS that they need to listen to what the WS is saying because usually the trouble can be found there.<BR>As of yet your wife is still seeing OW as the problem and you are right...she is not the problem....she's just a product of the problem. Now you apparently are saying that you have felt undervalued in your marriage and been a victim of emotional abuse. There have been desciptions of events that have taken place (the shorts sewed up wrong...the salad in the bowl) that seem to indicate that you also have control problems. Is this true?<P>You both brought up the subject of your being a failure...your wife referred to your failure to fix up the house...you referred to her unspoken criticisms of you...there appears to be an problem in this area...you know of course that being financial taken care of is sometimes an EN for women...do you feel like you have fulfilled this need in your wife. If not, then do you feel she has resentment about this and you have picked up on that. This is a tricky area, since it's not always possible for the husband to fulfill the financial needs of the wife. Do you think her expectations were excessive?<P>I ask you these questions because right now you seem to be more capable of dealing with them....but by exploring them maybe your wife can get some insight into what has happened in your marriage. It's a start and she needs to start somewhere...since you are tending to write off the marriage right now.<P>Faye

For Thinker and SnL:<P>The rule of honesty, the rule of care, the rule of protection, the rule of time. 100 percent in all areas: without that sort of commitment, all the intellecutal arguments in the world, all the he-saids/she-saids are not going to save your marriage.<P>It sounds like emotional needs are not being met as well. Time to sit down with the Emotional Needs questionnaire, don't you think?<P>At least if all of this is about saving your marriage.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

SnL & Thinker,<P>SnL, you certainly are wounded, both you and your wife are wounded. Yet you choose to heal your wounds by inflicting greater wounds in your W. Does that make sense? <P>You say your wife is demanding and demeaning. Could be. I have been accused of the same. I challenge you to this: Write down all your positive qualities and accomplishments you have made within the last year. Then do the same for your W. Be honest now. <P>Ask your wife if she can do the same for herself and you. Then take a look and see how much you can do to remove some of the stress from your wife. Even paper wives need some stress relief. Do 1 nice thing for your W each day. <P>Thinker, what part of your responsibilities can you give to your H? Remember you don't have to be a perfectionist. <BR>I understand that you have a lot of anger at your H due to his betrayal. My H used to say similar to me. That is why I told him he could go to his OW. As much as they claimed to have in common, it did not last through the real life that we all have to live each day. <P>I have asked your H to prove himself. Wonder if he will do it.? In the meantime prepare and and strengthen your support groups. <P>For you, try to do 1 nice thing for your H each day. <P>Take Care and keep posted. <P>Hope your garage sale goes well.<P>L.<P>

Yes, this last counselor says that I am a controller in sorts of ways, but needless to say H has been told he is a conroller by using his psychology on me. He uses mental behavior control over not just myself, but others. He manipulates people mentally. But past counselors have said he is a controller. Whatever you want to decide from statements said is your to choose.<P>Yes, my EN were not getting met, as well as his. Financial needs were not a real problem. Yes at one time we were pretty low in income, I am a good supporter of money and made the food bill stretch and clothing stretch while we were in bad shape. The kids were fed, clothed, and medically taken care of. I took in babysitting to bring in more income. So financial was not a problem. I knew we were in this together, and I did my part to help.<P>EN were a problem. I am one that likes to take walks and be in country settings. I am not a subdivion person. Having family around is nice too. Also, to have animals is wonderful for the kids and ourselves. I love music, which is one of the things H used to listen to while we were dating. But now he says it iritates him. Just to give you a few examples. But like Jennifer Harley said, there are things you are willing to give up. As long as some of the EN are being met. I listen to music when I am home without H and enjoy the notes. When he comes home I usually turn it off. I would enjoy having a completed home to decorate with my artistic ability. Maybe someday that will happen. I have artistic ability that has been stifled. <P>I have talked to God pretty extensive last night. I decided that H is not going to change to protect and care for me. There is no way he can share between myself and the other woman. So I will try Plan A and have asked God to give me guidance and support and I have actually set a goal of days. And the goal is to surpass the goal. <P>I don't know if Husband thinks I am crazy when I talk to God and this setting a goal just popped in my head, I know God put it there. But I feel God is working with me. Like I told my husband, I was laying on the couch resting with a headache, Something told me to go downtown to pick up my subscription, while I was waiting in line to pick up my subscription I was looking out the door across the street at the bank and I saw my H carry the big white bag with all of the stuff from his lover to put it into the safe deposit box that I couldn't get into. I needless to say, took and walked into the bank and watched him. But I was told by someone to get up off the couch. Now tell me that was not a gift of God, or what?<P>Anyways, you can all decide for yourselfs the conclusion of both Sad_n_lonely and thinker. But hopefully with all your prayers and prayers of others things will work out. Thanks for all your help. I will post some, but things have to get done around here too. I am more energetic in getting household things done, financial, and organizing.

Hi Thinker:<P>You sound better...in a way it's better to get on with the things that need to be done...it helps you from obsessing about WS and OW. I'm glad you are going to try Plan A but if SnL is willing please try to do the EN questionaire.....there might be a few surprises in doing that that you don't expect....we all think we know our mates so well and sometimes we really don't know them as well as we thought.<P>Let us know how things are going and if we can help. OK.<P>Faye

Buffy, thanks for the encouragement. Today I am just sort of in a OK mood. Nothing exceptional, just kind of living. I did get irritated at my H, who spends too many hours on the computer. He has stated this to Jennifer. We have so much to accomplish and I get bent out of shape when I am working all day and he sits on the computer too many hours. <P>His mom questions me if her son (my husband) has called the window people and roofer. H told me the beginning of this week he was going to get that done. I asked him at dinner if he did it this week, and he said no that he will have to do it this coming week. I feel the reason is too many hours on the computer trying to decifer his affair. H mother and H do not speak to each other very much. Conflict has caused them to build a wall between them. Therefore I am the mediator for the 2 of them. It is a big mess - Husbands mother bought land with a house that we gutted, cause she sold the land she is in now with the house and she is getting letters to get out. She has no where to go. The other house we gutted last year and not much has been done to it. It is not liveable by any standards. <P>H mother keeps asking me to tell H to get going. So I try to encourage her. Like this week I told her her son said he will make the call this week. Did not happen. She asked me today if he called, and I said I will find out. I am sure she will ask me tomorrow. What am I to do. H has asked me to talk to her, cause he cannot do anything with her. He gets bent out of shape when his mother expresses her concern that she will be evicted out of her house she is living in now. H has good ability to make things happen, but he is procrastinating on this job and I can't figure out why. He has good skills in getting jobs done, but this house has been sitting idle since november of 2000. <P>All I can do is try to talk to his mother and hear her complaints and try to bury the hurt that this causes. I hate being in the middle of a situation that could of been solved quite a few months ago. His mom and I met window people and roofer people about 2 months ago. His mom selected the windows she wants, and Husband has selected the roofer. Why are we waiting - who knows.<P>Like I said, I am going to try to do Plan A. Today is not a good day, have not really LB just expressed to my husband that I am getting irritated that things are not getting done. Hopefully, he will get moving soon, this is July and there is not that much time left till snow will fly.

Dear Thinker, <P>Watching your story unfold is like watching a piece of me out there where the names and events changed a bit (to protect the innocent) yet the plot is very real and similar. <P>Your H sounds like a major conflict avoider with low self esteem and a non-motivator. Has he always been like this?<BR>Is he helpful towards others but not his own? Is it be cause he harbors bad feelings towards his family (you and his mom) and this is his conscience or unconscience way of making you both pay? <P>That is a lot to answer. You don't owe me those answers but maybe yourself. For me it did not pay to stay in plan A. My H was too willing to continue the A as long as I tolerated it (which is what plan A makes some think). <P>No to shake up his fantasy world, I had to move to plan B if I wanted results. H is a complacent man, more than willing to let me 'control' or do things for the family while he sat back and watched, benefitted and had an A on the side for entertainment. Oh and at the same time say that I was stifling him, controlling him, manuipulating him, not allowing him to do what he wanted. <P>I guess that is what I see from both your stories. What I don't clearly see is that the OW is really committed to working on her marriage. How could she be if she is still communicating with SnL? Both my H and the OW persued each other. OW is still trying and right now I think my H has finally stopped, but not after trying to get her pregnant. OW has since claimed to have miscarried so I hope we are out of the woods on that one. <P>The point is that with all this going on in both your lives, everything else is on hold. All the things you both want and need to do are not being and not going to be done. Your MIL probably should find someonelse to help her, your H seems incapable of helping even himself. Addicted to the computer. That is what my H was and still is. <P>I told my H that I needed to see him making the effort to help out around the house. I went to work today and came home to find that my son had been fed breakfast but that was all. H had over 4 hours to do something but he did not. Now H is at work and I have all the housework to do. We both work so household chores need to be shared. H keeps saying that he needs time to be movtivated, I say no he needs to do some of the work and pace himself to do more, but to just wait for a miracle, it is just not going to happen. <P>NOTE: My H claimed he was/is waiting fo rhis heart to change all the while communicating with OW. I told him why should it change you keep associating with someone who wants to keep you out there away from yur family at all costs? So either you choose to change yourself or it is not going to happen.<P>There all said and done. Now it is up to H. Thinker IMHO, I think you should be in plan B. Your H may be an intelligent man but he does not have common sense, empathy, loyalty or compassion for his family. Neither does he have respect for himself or you. How can you expect a good reaction to plan A under those circumstances?<P>Just my thoughts again. <P>You take care, <BR>L.<BR>

L - Husband is depressed and has brought quite a bit of disharmony into this home. He is an intelligent person, but I agree with you no common sense. He is in a DEEP FOG. He can and would be a good husband and a compassionate father but he is absessed with this OW. Go to Cellphone thread and you can read a little there.<P>I don't know why the OW is still communicating with my husband. I feel the same as you, she really doesn't want to work on her marriage, she wants my husband. That is what appears to be the truth. Of course, we all that my husband wants her to be his wife and I an ex. I feel that the OW has some screws loose and needs to get phycological help from a professional. My husband is so protective and caring towards her. But do we get it at home, very little. He says he cannot give it while he is in this situation.<P>Plan B is coming next. Jennifer we talked to her this past thursday, and Husband told her he needs more time to communicate with the other woman. So Jennifer said this is not good, husband will get rid of OW in his time and his time only. Jennifer told both of us that if husband started on path when she asked him to, we both would be happy and seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. But we have not gotten off of block l, until husband does hurdle l (get rid of the other woman).<P>Tonight husband said, why doesn't everyone leave the 2 of them alone. Why does society want the 2 of them to stay in their marriage and why do they have to not be friends. Jennifer has told husband this many times, but husband doesn't believe her or what, I don't know.<P>

thinker i have also been reading, and frankly it has made me So grateful that my H's A was not an emotional attatchment. ( well as happy as i can be about it) I have one question that is just bugging me. You keep saying that she lives far away right. HOW did they meet and WHO do they still have such intense contact? Does he go to meet her?? Was it a PA?? I probably missed it in some post somewhere, but your H posts so much it is hard to keep up. I commend you for being so strong inthis too. ((HUGS))<BR>Maine<P>------------------<BR>IN the words of BOB the BUILDER!!" WE can fix it, yes we can!!!"

maine, yes she lives far away. We are on the east and she is on the west side. My husband loves her, they were talking about dating and marriage. Like I said, my husband keeps telling me he made a committment to her while married to me. (Marriage). <P>They met on the computer. Then it went to private e-mail, and then they went to the cellphone starting in Dec. of 2000. The phone got very lengthy in January when husband decided to get new cell phones for business I was told. Well I found out the phone is 9/10 calls to her. They talked for probably 6-8 hours a day. <P>Husband is quite mad at me today. He came down to my computer which is in our bedroom and sat down and read my posts, was not happy. He argued that he feels I was being sneaky with the cell phone, and I stated it just how it is. <P>We will see how today turns out. I will probably be very unhappy today.

Thinker, so he has not had a PHYSICAL affair then, ALL this is over an emotional attatchment. WOW sweetie! I truly did not think that an EA could be this devastating. ((((((((HUGS TO YOU))))) Do the have plans to meet?? I am being really nosey i KNOW. But your H seems very self righteous, and seems to think he is doing no harm no foul here. WHY is he still there with you?? Does he want to FIX the marriage, or go to the other woman?? You are very strong!<BR>Maine<P>------------------<BR>IN the words of BOB the BUILDER!!" WE can fix it, yes we can!!!"

maine - We are not sure he has not had a physical affair. In February when husband and OW were so involved with each other, our family went out to see husbands dad which he lives pretty close to the OW. He is not doing well, health going downhill by the abuse his dad has done to his own body. Husband does not have a close attachment to his father but does love his dad and shows concern to his dad. Anyways, the kids and I left to come home on the plane, and he stayed the one day. He goes to the airport to come home and calls to tell me the airline is buying him out, they pay for his hotel and food vouchers. He will be home the next morning. I get the cell phone, and there is a period of about 3 hours where there is no phone cell use. He says he was not with her. But after that period of time, the cell phone bill shows about every 3-5 minutes short minutes being sent out to her cell#. Husband has told me he has not had physical contact, but I am not sure. I am placing this in Gods hands and have not seen an aswer yet. Maybe God is saving this for a good reason.<P>Today is not a good day. Husband is cold to me, went past the bedroom about 3 times, did not turn towards me to say hello, good morning. He is talking in a mean manner, and the posts he is about to post I read, and asked him to delete and change. I am trying to be respectful and caring to him, which I want to be. I don't understand why he is so mad at me when I wanted to tell him the circumstance of our 17 year old son. I went to the computer room this morning to say you are mad at me and not wanting to talk to me, he said yes. I asked him why. He said I took the opportunity last night to go upstairs to tell him about our son to just see what I was doing. I only went up there for concern about our son. I just realized this, what if I got a call from the police stating our son was in an accident, and went upstairs to tell him and found him on the phone with the OW, would he go balistic and unthoughtful towards me at that time? I don't know my husband as he is now. Jennifer told me that he is not normal. So I guess I will just have to bear with it, and care and support him, as he does not to me. <P>As mad as he is now, he says there is little chance for reconcilation. I do not love it when he says he is working on the marriage. I do not see the work when we are stuck on block 1 and not moving towards the path to follow to marritable bliss. Why is it he sees only his view and no ones elses view? The marriage is on hold, he has controlled this hold because he is still talking to OW and has not broke the ties he has with her. If she has dumped (husband uses the words) him then why is he still after her and wanting her. Makes no sense to me. <P>Today he says, what I am doing (I guess on boards and raising my voice and all) just justifys why he wants out. He says there is nothing drawing him to me. I only asked him this morning for an apology for his behavior last night which was way out of line. And I also gave him an example that I think Jennifer would of used. She has such good language skills to use in relationships. So I gave the example to my husband. I would of loved it if he would of said "I am sorry that you caught me talking to her, I would like to hear what you have to say about our son." I would of been totally estactic with that reaction and totally forgotten that he was caught talking to her in his bed. <P>Anyways, he is posting about not listening to each other. I feel I hear him quite well, he seems to not listen to me. It is the mememem syndrome. Jennifer says I am doing good in listening and talking to him in a caring manner. <P>Anyways, he is going to post and do with it in what manner you want. I just want to clairfy some of the posts he writes. A marriage takes 2 to make a beautiful harmoney. It is a sour note when only 1 makes a beautifual note and the other plays off key.

Thinker,<P>What I am about to say may hurt you a bit. Understand this is a voice of experience on this, a stubborn one but someone who has been there done that and survived. <P>NOTE: I am NOT saying I am right, just want you to hear this.....<P>Give your H some space. <P>1. He will either hang himself (go with OW and eventually lose his family by staying with her) or,<P>2. He will go with OW and see the futility of their and relationship and ask you to forgive him and come home or,<P>3. He will retract his bluff and work on recommiting himself<BR>to your marriage or, <P>4. Do a combo of the above choices or,<P>5. Something else?.......<P>The fact that he doesn't want to leave may mean bad timing for him and OW (my H did that). Ow was not ready for him until April (due to her H was still in their home - off and on due to his business trips). Yet H moved out 12/31/00. Forced to face reality before his planned time. Oh yes, he wanted his freedom he could have it, not at his convenience but because I could not tolerate his using us to have his family comforts while he was having the A. My H knew that and so he moved out. <P>I told my H that I only had enough energy and love for those who lived in our home. Yet those who lived in our home needed to respect each other and in turn show love, care and loyalty. If any of those qualities were in question, then the right for that person to stay was in question. On that basis, it became difficult for H to continue to stay here. <P>Oh, that messed up Ow's plans and she was mad. Less money but more time?!?!? She replanned her efforts but eventually ended up 'loaning' money to H. Ha!!! So much for her 'gallant' white knight (OW is an oriental woman who prefers white guys). Go figure!!!! This is not a racist statement just a fact (you see I am oriental also but that was not my reason for marrying my H). <P>So my take on this is if your H is screaming for his 'freedom', then Mr. SNL needs to go find it. Like a spoiled child throwing a tantraum, your H will not stop until he falls. Thinker, your H wants to crash and fall. <P>Hard as that is to know and watch, your efforts to save him from that detriment may not work. Hon, you need to let go. But you don't have to let him continue to disrespect you. <P>Hurt it will, the pain is strong, long and intense. But you have retained your respect and dignity. He will have lost his and if he is too stupid even his family. That is his choice Thinker. Is it his right? Yes and so are the consequences. <P><BR>SNL, if you are reading this, I am not condoning your A, your reasons nor your logic. You are a man that has been hurting and you have spread that hurt to 2 families. Many can see this. Your selfish desire to continue to steal what is not yours is setting a bad example for all that know you. You are with your family in body and you think it gives you the right to leave them emotionally, morally and spiritually, that is not your right. If you leave your family in these manners the rest of you will need to follow suit. You can no more continue to do that than you can leave your physical heart in one home but your body in another. Physically possible to do but you have to be dead. Is that the outcome you want? Sorry for the graphic illustration, trying to get the real picture across to you. <P>L. <P><BR>

Orchid - yes I realize I am beating a dead horse. Husband is dead to the family and alive to the OW. I have talked to Jennifer this past week about Plan B. I will let him go and get hurt, that is basically what will happen. Husband told me today, if he leaves he will never come back. So that is his choice. <P>At least we will all not have to succumb to his efforts with the OW, staying on the computer for hours and hours. I find that today being on the computer has totally wrecked the day of trying to accomplish things necessary. I am one trying to be responsible for our lives and continuing in a somewhat normal fashion. This is not my day of having fun, being a loner on the computer by myself, not interacting with the kids, not getting things done and just being here. But this is what my husband seems to enjoy the most. Therefore, I still find him to be a loner and wants to stay that way. There could be so much more fun and adventure if he would just move off that block and start working. Life is full of wierd choices, his choice is by far wierd.<P>His OW doen't seem to be a loner. I wonder how she would feel if he was doing this in their family? Choices ones make shows what type of person they are. I am a sociable person with many friends, that I have limited the conversation with them for various reasons. Husband wants to know, but I will not tell him for now. It is not substantial to the marriage. My contact with them will resume at the right time, this has been discussed with each one of them thoroughly by phone or e-mail.