SNL,<P>RE: “I know the psychological issues here, that one wants to stop the ws from contact with another person”<P>No you do not know the psychological issues here. Your wife is not trying to control you. She is trying to rid her own life of the pain you are inflicting on her. What of her right to have a home where she is not having emotional garbage rubbed into her face at every turn? Though you see your actions as a way of expressing your freedom. They are actually a way of controlling your wife. <P><BR>RE: you do absolutely no good, and just encourage us to pull further away from you. You are making aggression and control part of your relationship (for her own good of course, yuck).<P>Actually it is good for the BS to set some limits. Sometimes this means more to the BS then saving the marriage. Sometimes having self-respect when one’s spouse is showing none is the best thing a BS can do.<P>I bet you love the part of the MB concepts where your wife is supposed to not love bust and plan A you to death. It does appear that many WS take great advantage of this. <P>You are right SNL, you are a big boy now and can do anything you like. But your wife is a big girl and she will tire of your games and rhetoric and eventually do what she needs and wants to do. <P>Grrrrrrr<P>Z<BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Z- Correct. This Cell-phone is causing pain on a day-to-day basis. If I'm paying for the house, car, Life style and everything else should I not have the right to be in my home with out the pain of the cell phone. I understand SNL point, but it’s a very selfish point. If he has any love for his wife or sensitivity for his family then the cell phone should be left in his car or office. I have no need to neither control my wife nor push her away from our children and me. She has done an excellent job of that on her own. The Cell phone represents her right to decide who she chooses to love; yet it is also taking her away from us. I choose not to live like this.

ok ok, yes I am not an ogre, I understand it hurts. What the bs may not fully appreciate (since we all have our own filters) is that the ws has needs too, and the contact fills that need. Being told your need to not be "hurt" is more important than our need for emotional support (which is what this is essentially about for everyone bs and ws and op), does not compute. If anything it makes us feel devalued, especially if accompanied by coercion (such as taking phone away, or actively interfereing with it's use). IMO adams very real pain, is still being used as an emotional weapon (tell me that is not true adam, if you have the slightest feeling of righteous indignation you are guilty), and/or manipulation. <P>WS are very very sensitized to this, and is one of the main points I try to make all the time (and did so often to cali). While on a human level we (like most decent people) do care about others pain and such, at the same time we really don't care whether our behaviour hurts you, we figure that is your problem, deal with it, we have enuf hurt of our own to deal with. Now that came across as very harsh, and makes me appear lower than dirt, but it is the unfortuneate truth, and I don't like it any better than you do. <P>I have tried to understand this, why do I care, but don't care too, and I think it has to do with the taker thing. In a ws the taker has taken over serious control (whether justified or not, which is a whole nother issue), and while the giver is still resident, has absolutely no power over the taker's choices. And when the taker is confronted directly, and in a controlling fashion, the bs might as well just shoot themself in the foot, probably be less damaging. Don't confront us, don't try to set boundaries on us (unless very very reasonable, and taking phone away does not qualify). A boundary would be like, don't talk to op in my presence... or don't have op over to house (while bs gone I assume, while there is hard to imagine anyone doing), and so forth.<P>SNL,RE: “I know the psychological issues here, that one wants to stop the ws from contact with another person”<P>z...No you do not know the psychological issues here. Your wife is not trying to control you. She is trying to rid her own life of the pain you are inflicting on her. <P>snl...not completely true z, that is the ostensible justification, cause it is true too, but what she really wants is to stop all my contact. I don't know about adams wife, but I am not in your face, I am discreet, the only time my wife has ever seen me on the phone was a couple times when she came into a part of the house silently, knew I did not see her, and attempted to eavesdrop, that is hardly avoiding pain. The phone does not ring, and I sleep in a different bedroom (have for 5 years). She literally does not know how little or much I may talk, she just does not want me talking at all, and chooses to make the physical presence of the phone an issue. It is just a phone, a tool, has nothing to do with anything in itself, she wants control, plain and simple. And right or wrong this is america, and anyone can talk to anyone they want. No matter how painful that may be, trying to resolve the marital issues by controlling free speech is the wrong approach.<P>z...What of her right to have a home where she is not having emotional garbage rubbed into her face at every turn? Though you see your actions as a way of expressing your freedom. They are actually a way of controlling your wife. <P>snl...now you sound like my wife, your logic is flawed. By exercising my own freedoms I am controlling nothing but myself. I don't force her to be involved (as I said above), but her pain is hers, I am not responsible for her feelings. Nor is she for mine. It is popular (it seems) for bs to argue that cause all this upsets them and they can do nothing about it, that they are controlled, that is a self-serving mangleing of the notions of control. You have options, don't put up with it, divorce us.<P>RE: you do absolutely no good, and just encourage us to pull further away from you. You are making aggression and control part of your relationship (for her own good of course, yuck).<P>z...Actually it is good for the BS to set some limits. Sometimes this means more to the BS then saving the marriage. Sometimes having self-respect when one’s spouse is showing none is the best thing a BS can do.<P>snl...I agree, one has to decide for themselves what battles to fight, and what strategy to use, both ws and bs.<P>z...I bet you love the part of the MB concepts where your wife is supposed to not love bust and plan A you to death. It does appear that many WS take great advantage of this. <P>snl....you are right, we love it ALOT.<P>z....You are right SNL, you are a big boy now and can do anything you like. But your wife is a big girl and she will tire of your games and rhetoric and eventually do what she needs and wants to do.<P>snl...as will we all <P>Grrrrrrr<P>snl...I know I am annoying, but I really do try to be completely forthright, warts and all, for whatever good it may do me and/or others. And I am not a bad person, I don't want anyone (including me) to be unecessarily hurt/injured. I am doing my best to find the right course through very confusing (and dangerous) waters. I appreciate yours (and all) comments, unflattering or not, I do seem to raise your hackles some though, I wonder why.<P><BR>adamsol Z- Correct. This Cell-phone is causing pain on a day-to-day basis. If I'm paying for the house, car, Life style and everything else should I not have the right to be in my home with out the pain of the cell phone. <P>adam.... faulty logic adam, the one (paying for all) does not imply the other, it is self-seriving rationalization, your w won't buy it, nor should she. If you buy into that it reduces your ability to reconcille (assuming you want to at this point). I am not defending your wife, who may not be worthy of you at all, just addressing this narrow issue of cp. If you want that to APPEAR to be the issue, than do so, but the real issue is whether you have given up (IMO), don't use this as a red herring, just tell her you are done, and get on with it.<P>adam...I understand SNL point, but it’s a very selfish point. <P>snl....And yours (and my w) isn't?<P>adam....If he has any love for his wife or sensitivity for his family then the cell phone should be left in his car or office. <P>snl.... emotional MANIPULATION, says my feelings don't count, only someone elses and by the standards YOU make up.<P>adam....I have no need to neither control my wife nor push her away from our children and me. She has done an excellent job of that on her own. The Cell phone represents her right to decide who she chooses to love; yet it is also taking her away from us. I choose not to live like this.<P>snl....exactly.."represents".... so rather than make that the issue (physical possession of an inanimate object), address the real issue, her behaviour everyday, all day, in a myriad of ways. If the sum total is unacceptable, do what you have to do. As for the phone what would work best with me (and no gaurantees) is to express your hurt (in your terms NOT what she is doing to you), politely suggest it would really be helpful if she did not use phone in your presence, and better yet use it only when you don't even know. That way you are empowering her to choose her own way of caring about you, and that reveals something. When you make this specific (and unreasonable) demand, you accomplish nothing voluntary, and LB as well. Only the most crass of ws would subject their spouse to the actual contact with op, if that happens or continues, IMO more drastic action is justified, and any mentally healthy ws would understand that (not be a LB in other words).<P>

adamsol:<P>Getting to the root of your cellphone problem, you state: "I choose not to live like this."<P>You have made that choice; I am dying to see how Steve helps you resolve the actual implementation.<P>IMHO, there is a point where Plan A, non-lovebusting, has a finite limit. The cellphone issue is yours. Nothing I have read in Dr. Harley's material suggests that the one doing the Plan A be a doormat.<P>As WAT said, you are entitled to your self-respect and dignity. Since she has repeatedly refused to get rid of it of her own volition, I would feel that you are justified in removing from your home.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

SNL,<P>SNL: "I do seem to raise your hackles some though, I wonder why."<P>Yes you do raise my hackles. And I would say that I raise yours too.<P>It appears to me that you have managed to turn Plan A into a situation you exploit. If there were any one situation that screams that Plan A is not a good tool, it is yours. You do more than anyone I’ve seen to show that perhaps Dodson is right. He says that affairs are the ultimate insult and disrespect and that then only way to handle them is to tell the BS to leave. <P>One point you have missed in AdamSol’s posts is that he has asked her to be discreet about her cell phone usage. Yet she continues to do things like accept phone calls from her OM while she is conversing with Adam. So her behavior crosses even the bounds you consider acceptable. But your advice to him is that he should just suck it up.<P>In my previous marriage I found that Plan A’ing a person for too long becomes a lifestyle loved by the WS. I cease to be an affective tool after a point. <P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

SNL<P>I think your mail tells more about your mindset than that of all BS. When a BS like me demands No Contact, than that is not controlling, or mothering, but the only absolute rule you need to work on the marriage. It is not possible to have a friendship with OP after the EMA if you want to work on your marriage, because your friends should be part of both your lives, and because everytime the spouse contacts OP, it hurts the BS more than death itself. <P>It is extremely selfish with regard to both the W and the OP to sit on the fence like that. I don't think being an adult is about being allowed to do what you darn well please, but to realise other people exist besides yourself, and drop the mememememe attitude. Your insistence on not wanting to be mothered gives me more ideas about the issues behind your EMA - perhaps your W is very controlling and nagging and you understandably got sick of it. Its enough to drive any man away. But this is just not the same kind of thing. It causes pain which you clearly can't imagine, otherwise you would not be continuing a "friendship" with OW. <P>A W's demand for physical control of the thing is also understandable. If you want to win back trust, you will have to make some concessions. Like not taking vm in the house. Otherwise you are just increasing the damage. <P>I get from your post, however, that that may be what you want. If you want to continue the contact with OM and object to your W so much, why don't you just leave the marriage.<P><B>What the bs may not fully appreciate (since we all have our own filters) is that the ws has needs too, and the contact fills that need. Being told your need to not be "hurt" is more important than our need for emotional support (which is what this is essentially about for everyone bs and ws and op), does not compute.</B> <P>You are right, BS often see everything from their point of view. Their biggest mistake is to ignore their contribution to the deterioration of the marriage. The needs of the WS also need to be fulfilled. It is, however, impossible to fulfill your emotional needs by keeping in touch with OW AND saving the marriage. Looking for emotional needs outside your marriage got you in trouble in the first place.<BR>You are in fact still continuing the EMA. And when you want to work on the marriage you cant just horse-trade your needs. You have to realise they are both part of the same parcel. What you are doing is forcing your need to conduct an EMA on your W, who is supposed to live with the (btw excruciating) pain of betrayal in her own home. <BR>If you can't accept this and dump the OW as a so-called friend, it is perhaps better for all if you follow your needs and leave the marriage alltogether. Condsidering you have already lived in separate rooms for 5 years that suggests to me that your affair is of a different kind than most here anyway. Perhaps your marriage is beyond salvation. But maybe you are just the kind of person that thinks his W should accept his errant behavior while he does whatever he likes. <P>You are right about one thing, though. You do have to decide on your own and no-one else can make you what to do. That doesn't mean a BS has to take all kind of BS! In cases of such unrepentant WS who insist on continuing the EMA under the very nose of the BS, I myself would not give WS a chance but kick them out right away. No marriage is worth that.<BR>

Listen. She wants the divorce and I do too. She is in the thick of another relationship with a man that is now going through a divorce himself. From what I understand they met several weeks ago. He helped her find an Attorney gave her a cell phone and confessed his "love of the Ages for her". She on the other chooses to enter into this A, #2. And put her family on the back burner. She is very trusting and puts her trust in him, not me. I asked her to have dinner with me and she thought it a bad idea. I told her I love her and she looked into my eyes and said that she cares for me but can't live with me. OM calls her repeatedly all day on the cell. Last night I came home late and found her reading " 5 ways to restoring your relationship". What goes?

adamsol:<P>The fog is what goes. You will encounter rationally contradictory behavior. That is a given in all WS (in fact, the expressions they use are almost identical).<P>You state "she wants a divorce and so do I." If that is the case, adamsol, why are you here? From your other posts, it would seem that you very, very much want your marriage to recover. That is what Plan A is all about. It also lets you work on you. It is a win-win approach. If the marriage begins to recover, you win. If it does not, and you take to heart the MB principles and learn from them and become a better person, you win.<P>Divorce is a lose-lose proposition. There is no self- and marital-improvement in Plan D. It is a reality that is to be considered, yes. But as an individual, you owe yourself the growth that Plan A and Plan B provide.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

STL- OK I hear you.

adamsol-<P>I'm glad you hear STL. He is so right.<P>I can't remember if I've posted in this thread, but let me say that my W and I have almost the EXACT same problem. I LB'ed bigtime the other night because the OM called her cell during one of our talks, and she took the call. I was furious and made it a big deal. It got thrown back in my face that just this sort of "smothering" behavior is one reason that our marriage is failing. I managed to withdraw, realign myself to Plan A with vigor, and it's working.<P>I can so relate to your conversation... I've almost had it word for word. I say I love her and she says she knows and that she thinks I'm a wonderful person but that we have to separate. This is the fog. It is infuriating and so inexplicable that they go to the OM when they used to come to you for support and trust. And this is why you've got to Plan A to the hilt... Make her see that you are safe, and will not judge her but will only love her unconditionally. You'll be there for her.<P>Letting the WS do what they want can be a way to avoid LB'ing... and thus preserving the Plan A enviroment. Stack yourself up against the OM... See? Who is the better choice, the greater person? If you Plan A and B consistently and truthfully, when the fog clears, she'll see the answer. "When the fog clears" is directly affected by how well you've Planned A and B, but there is no guarantee for her... Only for you. If you Plan A and B to the best of your ability, you will be an even stronger and better person than you can know right now.<P>Best to you. Hang in there. I sure am.<BR>-zen<P>You may want to read Redon's excellent Plan A post here:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/010345.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/010345.html</A>

Zen,<P>Very well put.<P>Z

z...Yes you do raise my hackles. And I would say that I raise yours too.<P>snl...not at all z, I am generally a pretty even tempered man, and I value more than just about anything, truthfullness and forthrightness (ok, I did leave those values for a while).....you don't raise my hackles at all, but you do raise my curiosity.<P>z....It appears to me that you have managed to turn Plan A into a situation you exploit. If there were any one situation that screams that Plan A is not a good tool, it is yours. You do more than anyone I’ve seen to show that perhaps Dodson is right. He says that affairs are the ultimate insult and disrespect and that then only way to handle them is to tell the BS to leave. <P>snl...no z, not true. I realize I am not that easy to understand, over my years on-line and thousands of posts on discussion boards about everything you can imagine (politics, religion, feminism, homosexuality, racism, abortion, sexuality, and so forth and so on, there has been a regular percentage of people I rub the wrong way. Despite (for the most part), good manners, civil discourse, and rare flaming (on my part), I still annoy this percentage (seemingly by my very existence). On the other hand, there is a comparable percentage that disagrees with me almost on every point, yet still defend me (when attacked etc.) and regularly state they enjoy and respect me...go figure. Everyone else falls in between. I have one goal in on-line interactions, and that is seeking the truth, an elusive animal. One of my tools is to range the discussion as far as possible, this is partly what seems to garner me some illwill, but I don't really know. This forum is different of course, in that the issue is terribly personal and very real for all of us, I will admit I am floundering about, trying to understand myself and my marriage and my feelings for another, I don't have it all figured out, but I am getting there. For the record, I would never deliberately, or with any malice whatsoever, hurt someone. My problem is in that being honest with myself, I am hurting someone, it is very difficult. The reason I said I like the plan A, is that my wife has always attached conditions to me, she was nice (loved me) if I "behaved" and punished me if I did not (according to her rules of course). <P>z...One point you have missed in AdamSol’s posts is that he has asked her to be discreet about her cell phone usage. Yet she continues to do things like accept phone calls from her OM while she is conversing with Adam. So her behavior crosses even the bounds you consider acceptable. But your advice to him is that he should just suck it up.<P>z....In my previous marriage I found that Plan A’ing a person for too long becomes a lifestyle loved by the WS. I cease to be an affective tool after a point. <P>snl...absolutely, there must be a timeframe, then B.<P>grr..I think your mail tells more about your mindset than that of all BS. When a BS like me demands No Contact, than that is not controlling, or mothering, but the only absolute rule you need to work on the marriage. <P>snl.... agreed, but first the ws has to decide they want to work 100%, along the way to that decision you will have to accept 10%, 50% etc. (or file for divorce).<P>gr...It is not possible to have a friendship with OP after the EMA if you want to work on your marriage, because your friends should be part of both your lives, and because everytime the spouse contacts OP, it hurts the BS more than death itself.<P>snl...I disagree with this as an absolute principle, there are bs who have become friends with op after reconcilliation with ws (although I am sure this is rare). The hurt the bs experiences (forever) interests me, it says more about the bs, then it does about the A, the ws, or the op. It fairly screams self-esteem issues (albeit understandably so).<P>gr...It is extremely selfish with regard to both the W and the OP to sit on the fence like that. I don't think being an adult is about being allowed to do what you darn well please, but to realise other people exist besides yourself, and drop the mememememe attitude. <P>snl....no it isn't, it is real life, real human behaviour, is pointless to bemoan it, or condemn it. However, the clock does tick, and good mental health (not to mention splinters) means getting off the fence in a reasonable timeframe. And yes being an adult is about one thing and one thing only, doing exactly what you please, to do anything else is dysfunctional. Hopefully doing what you please does include an interest in including the impact on others as part of the decision process. Everyone is mememem, your admonition is made regularly, and I never understand it. What you are doing right now is mememem, you are advocating for an outcome you want, you could care less (so to speak) whether that outcome works best for everyone else. Personally I think it is more honest, and far more useful for people to be as mememe as possible in relationships, rather than try to disguise it as something else. Every bs (and ws of course) is all about one thing, what they want...mememe.<P>grr...Your insistence on not wanting to be mothered gives me more ideas about the issues behind your EMA - perhaps your W is very controlling and nagging and you understandably got sick of it. <P>snl...that is partly true, but it is a sympton, it is not the underlying problem.<P>gr...But this is just not the same kind of thing. It causes pain which you clearly can't imagine, otherwise you would not be continuing a "friendship" with OW.<P>snl...I will grant that having never walked in the bs shoes, I cannot properly assess this "pain", nor were my comments directed toward that. The issue is black and white, and what I was saying is as annoying as it may be, this pain is irrelevant to the ws. If it were important, they would never have gotten involved with another in the first place. There is regret for the pain, but it will not be a reason (usually, although some ws say that motivated them to reconcil, personally I don't believe it for a second, it just sounds nice), to stop the friendship. <P>gr...A W's demand for physical control of the thing is also understandable. If you want to win back trust, you will have to make some concessions. Like not taking vm in the house. Otherwise you are just increasing the damage.<P>snl...I have no interest in winning back trust. I was trustworthy in the past, am still now, and will be in the future. My issue is trying to decide whether this marriage should be saved. I (maybe not so commonly) was estranged and emotionally divorced from my wife for some time, in what the harleys refer to as withdrawal (and very deep withdrawal it was). While my actions were ill-advised (and will never happen again, it was the wrong action to take), my motivations were honorable, albeit out of place. I should have divorced/reconcilled first. That is easy to say in hindsite, much harder to apply/understand in the midst of emotional turmoil. My wife has a great deal of emotional trust to restore as well, I don't believe she loves me, have never believed it (with good reason), and would leave now, cept she has said she will change, and wants this to work.<P>gr...I get from your post, however, that that may be what you want. If you want to continue the contact with OM and object to your W so much, why don't you just leave the marriage.<P>snl....I may. But my sense of fairplay requires I make this effort. I realize the contact must end, and in fact it is, that was not the point of this post about cellphone. But since you ask, I am ending it in my way and in my time. If I did it any other way, I would resent the MB efforts, so if my willing participation is required, this is how it had to be. I am sorry my wife has to suffer, but is her choice, she could just divorce me, I am not doing this to hurt her.<P>gr...You are right, BS often see everything from their point of view. Their biggest mistake is to ignore their contribution to the deterioration of the marriage. The needs of the WS also need to be fulfilled. It is, however, impossible to fulfill your emotional needs by keeping in touch with OW AND saving the marriage. <P>snl...yes, I agree.<P>gr...What you are doing is forcing your need to conduct an EMA on your W, who is supposed to live with the (btw excruciating) pain of betrayal in her own home.<P>snl....That would be wrong, what she is having to accept is how I end it, not that I can continue it indefinitely.<P>gr...But maybe you are just the kind of person that thinks his W should accept his errant behavior while he does whatever he likes.<P>snl...nope, not at all. <P>gr...You are right about one thing, though. You do have to decide on your own and no-one else can make you what to do. That doesn't mean a BS has to take all kind of BS! In cases of such unrepentant WS who insist on continuing the EMA under the very nose of the BS, I myself would not give WS a chance but kick them out right away. No marriage is worth that.<P>snl...I agree. And if I were going to maintain this, she would not have to kick me, I would do the respectable thing and leave.<P> <BR>

AdamSol,<P>Are you around? So how's it going today? <P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Communication with the OP while living at home in the house or outside is still disrespectful. H used to talk to OW in the driveway (claimed better reception). Still disrespectful and looks stupid. A man sitting in his truck for hours on the phone. Even falling asleep in his truck. So looking like a fool is OK? Is this an addiction or what? Like those who sneak a smoke outside in the cold or bad weather? <P>If talking to the OP is that important to 'abandon' the family for any amount of time in lieu of the OP, then expanding it include more time (like moving out seems to be the way to go). A bit of plan B here to preserve the respect for your household. Think about it, what kind of message does this send your children. Oh, it's ok to be disrespectful to your parents as long as you can to do it in the driveway, patio, sidewalk? No that sounds dumb and we would not allow our children to do that. So what makes our Ws different? <P>JMHO. <P>L.<P><BR>

Orchid,<P>You have a very good point here. I guess that's the answer I've been looking for. When the WS's behavior is so disrespectful as this cell phone thing, it is time for Plan B.<P>Someone here said that most people couldn’t make it two weeks in Plan A when there is an on-going affair. When it is as blatant was this it would be hard to make it one week.<P>Just MHO<P>Z <BR>

An aside to SnL:<P>In seeking truth, we seek only the truth we wish to find. Truth is generally a compromise (other than ascertainable fact falling within the realm of demonstrable science).<P>Remember the story of the three blind men and the elephant? Whose view was any less true?<P>We perceive only that portion of the truth that we can see. That does not mean that someone else's perceptions are any less true. So, then, it is a matter of relativistic truth.<P>Finally, there are truths to which we are blind. Because of preconceptions, because of lack of knowledge, because of our prejudices ... and on, and on. These factors restrict the totality of truth from us.<P>So when you speak of truth, you speak only of truth as you see it or wish to see it.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

<P>I am the wife of Sad_n_lonely. He has not stated the cell phone correctly. I have seen him talk to his lover when I was not being sneaky. He sleeps in another room upstairs (his choice - talks to her while he is in bed). I will climb the stairs and yell Joe, and he doesn't hear me. I go to the room and there he is talking. That is not sneaking it is blasting me in the face, cause he was too busy listening to her. I at one time came up to his room to ask him if he wanted pancakes for breakfast, caught him talking to his OW. Also, when we were to go to a marriage encounter for the weekend, I went to the bedroom to get a sweater out of the closet, there is a window and it is cracked open about 1 inch, I heard someone talking. I looked out the window and there he was talking to her again and it was very graphic with I love you, kisses, and hugs. Talk about hurt. These were not spied on just because he talks to her openly in the home. The worst part is he goes balistic when I catch him, and yells at me, call me names, and the body language is so fierce, and he says he wants a divorce and all the things that a psychotic-manic-depressive would do. I have told Jennifer how he acts, and she has told H that is uncalled for. He is the one making the call in the home and acting irrational.<P>Talking to Jennifer, she has asked and I have asked him to keep his calls outside of the home. It is hard, when you see him looking in his left hand pocket of his shirt all the time to see if there was a call coming in. He keeps his cell phone in his left shirt pocket. Many times, he would get up and leave and I knew it was his phone. I have also heard the phone go off, it is on vibrate, and I can hear the vibration. He is not caring and protective of me, only his OW.<P>Like tonight, he said I am tired. I don't know if he meant this next statement to be hurtful or not. But he told me he is tired because of the voicemails he does to her at night. He said he doesn't sleep well, and will have to stop the voice mails at night. Husband, I would love for you to stop the voice mails, for your health and for our marriage, please.<P>He can go out to the woods, go take a ride in his vehicle, but he still communicates to her in our home. Is this a WS who just cannot stop communicating to his OW? Tonight he said he doesn't want to stop the communication with her. But he doesn't really care about pushing me away. He said he doesn't care and protective for me while he is in this situation. Jennifer has finally put the two of us in a situation that we have to talk about. She asked him how much longer will it take to get rid of her? We have been talking to her for about 2 months or more. Mostly me, cause she doesn't want to talk to him while he is still talking to the other woman. H said 4 more weeks, I definitely said no,no,no. He said 3 weeks, I said no,no,no. Jennifer came in and asked how long. I said maybe 2 more weeks. H came back with 2 weeks and a chance for an extension. This is what I am dealing with. Husband does not want the marriage with me, he wants his Debi. We still have not talked about the two weeks, he spends a lot of time on the computer talking to the boards.<P>My husband loves the OW, and not me. I know. I asked him if the OW still wants him for her husband, and he said I guess so. But according to the husband, she will never leave, she is committed to staying with her husband and making her marriage work. Would be nice if my WS would make the commitment, but he is the one still talking to her and ruining her chance of making her marriage work. Sometimes I wonder if he is smart or not, he is a very intelligent man but the last 6 months has shown him to be quite stupid, and uncaring to his wife and family. <P>Husband, I know you will read this, but I had to correct your statement on the cell phone. Please do not get upset with me, but things needed to be cleared. Otherwise everyone will think I sneak around all the time. Like I said on other posts, God is helping me see you do the things you do. I feel he has helped me see these cellphone calls, when you were telling me you were not talking to her.<BR>To those who are interested, I have the phone bills to show that he is talking to her all the time, during the night and everything. <P>I am praying for you husband, that you will come to your senses quickly. I am tired of the hurt, which you stated that you don't care. But a human can take so much and then they wear thin. I don't want a divorce, and I feel just like Jennifer feels, that we will have a wonderful marriage if you were to contribute yourself to the actions necessary to make this a go. We are still sitting on block 1 and have not moved off of it yet. The path is beyond the block and it is waiting for the 2 of us to follow. I want to follow with all my heart, and love and caring and protectiveness to you. I LOVE YOU, even if you don't think so, someone else recognizes the love I have for you.

thinker<P>If the OW is trying to make her marriage work, why is she still talking to SNL? Her husband does not know of this affair does he? Perhaps he needs to be told. You may be the one who needs to do this.<P>And perhaps it is time for SNL to experience life without you. It sounds like Plan B might be right for your situation. SNL seems to be too comfortable with you bending over backwards to meet his needs in Plan A. <P>In some of your posts I recall you talking about your being controlling. Indeed SNL seems to bring it up a lot too. Actually it seems to be an issue with many the male WS. What amuses me about it is that one adult cannot control another with out their cooperation. If a person feels controlled it is because they do not know how to be assertive in an effective manner. I know this from experience because my XH is a very controlling person in every aspect of life. In the first couple years of our marriage I let this occur. But then I realized what as going on and I changed my behavior. I took his attempts to control as suggestions. So when a grown man accuses you of being controlling you might want to contemplat how he benefits from being “controlled” . Perhaps he is not controlled at all but uses the accusations as a way to hurt and conrol you. <P>Just a thought from al I’ve read her,<P>Z <BR>

Z - I don't know why the OW is still talking to my husband, I know my husband is talking to her cause he loves her. If he loved her he would let her go and do what she really wants to do in her life, and stay with her marriage and make her marriage work. Husband has stated that she has dumped him, but she is still talking to him. Does that sound like she dumped him? Not to me, it sounds like a lie to me so I will feel better. Well Joe, it didn't. Her husband does not know. My husband told me about a month ago that her husband asked her if she was having an affair. She told him no, cause husband said it is almost over, so it is not a lie. See how he protects her all the time. It amazes me that he loves this woman that is so deceitful and lies. I have never lied to my husband like that. Jennifer told me to not tell her husband. I don't know if he stated, but the OW this is for sure her second affair. I had her investigated. But I feel there was another one.<P>Jennifer and I and husband talked this past thursday and asked husband if it is over. As posted earlier it is not. Therefore we will probably end up going to plan B. I will not endure much more. Like Jennifer said a human can take so much until their skin runs thin.<P>Well, now to tell you what happened tonight just a little while ago. I was still up, haven't slept (what is sleep now adays). Our 17 year old son was out and husband told him to be home no later than 2. Well, son came in at 3:13 am our time and was sneaking into his room. I watched him, my door was open. Being a concerned parent, I went up to where husband sleeps to tell Joe that our son just came in, and guess what, he was talking to the OW. This happens everytime, I was not being sneaky, just a concerned parent. He said f*** you, can't have any privacy in my home. I told him that our son just got home and wanted to tell you cause I was concerned about our son. He said why couldn't you tell me in the morning, does that sound like a father that is concerned about his son or about talking to the OW. He got so mad and angry. So I guess I am at fault for telling him at the exact moment that our son defaults a rule and wanting to tell his father. I don't get it, I feel he was very rude to me and uncaring. It again was only what husband feels, mememememe. Husband is really mad now and I guess I will see his anger tomorrow. Do you think he is being fair to me, to go so balistic with words, body language and all when he is the one talking to the OW and I am a concerned parent telling him about son? I don't get it, the BS seems to have to endure so much pain that the WS puts on the BS. The pain is so severe that my husband does not comprehend what it is doing physically to my body. I have lost about 20# and still am losing because situation he is still in and the uncaring unthoughtful manner he demonstrates to me. I still love him, will probably always love him if we divorce or separate. Plan B will come into effect soon if he does not get rid of the other woman.<P>To my husband, I would like an apology for tonight. You were out of control and I feel what you said and did to me was not acceptable. I am concerned about our 17 year old son and I know you are, therefore that is why I told you as the action took place. Please be kind to me today.<P>I am posting on the board to tell you exactly what happens and that I am not sneaking, just God tells me to go to husband and tell him about our son, or God puts me in places at the time when husband is doing something unfaithful.

Thinker,<P>SNL is in another world right now. He is going to do whatever this is he is doing. For your own sanity and health, you need to separate yourself from him. Perhaps you can start living as though he is not in the house for right now. Just be kind and respectful to him while he is around. Yes he is being disrespectful of you, horribly disrespectful. But this is no surprise to you now. Protect yourself. Do not go to his room again to tell him anything ever… ok, well, if the house is burning down then you might want to but not for any other reason. Just assume that anytime he is in his room he is on the phone with her. So stay away.<P>You are going to have a really hard time with our son. He sees his father treating you this way. I’m sure he has little to no respect for his father at this time. So you can pretty much expect that he is going to act out and disobey any rules either of you try to put forth. Perhaps you need to take some tough love classes in handling a teen-age boy by yourself.<P>If your husband was on the line with OW when you went up to his room tonight, then she must have heard him speak to you in that manner. Why on earth would a person continue a relationship with one who speaks that way to their spouse? If my husband ever spoke that way about his XW I’d not have continued my relationship with him. A person who can treat and speak to one spouse in this manner will do it to any spouse. People floor me.<P>Work on yourself and plan A as much as you can under these circumstances.<P>Z<BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare