Sad_n_lonely said:<BR>*** Heretofore I had never lied about anything (except small forays into conflict avoidance lies, which IMO blame is equally shared with the spouse when they use anger too much). The reason for being a denier is simple, I valued the developing relationship, and telling would have ended (or seriously impeded) it. In my case I didn't think my w would be hurt so much as mad, and I wanted to avoid her anger and interference. I didn't think she loves me, and would simply have had something else to use against (and control) me with. I suspect this is a not uncommon reason for denying. It felt like survival, one of my imageries was we (ow) were in a lifeboat together, and telling would dump us back into the ocean to drown. I am not sure bs fully appreciate how much an A feels like survival to many of us. If something is life and death behaviour changes. Yes, spouse may be hurt, but they are still alive, and don't need us anyways, whereas we are dieing. Hope this helps understand. It wasn't that I didn't care exactly, it is just that her feelings never really appeared on my radar. I guess you can call that rationalization, and self-interest, seems to be what it looks like I guess.***<P>SNL,<P>Can I ask you a couple questions?<P>First, what is so wrong with your wife being "MAD" over those *small* lies you told her? What is so scary about someone being "MAD" at you for something that is your responsibility? <P>If your wife would have simply demonstrated "HURT" as opposed to "MAD", would it then have been safe for you to tell the truth instead of lieing. And if so, WHY???<P><BR>I'm really trying to understand...<P>Jo<P>

Wow, some really good stuff here. Everybody makes sense, even the opposing views.<P>Ishy, welcome back. We need you to weigh in on another thread, my "On informing the OP's spouse." OK?<P>And Ishy, I share your wish - to hear my wife say she did it, now let's put this behind us. I don't ever expect that to happen. Similar the STL's quote, she is the sum of her pathologies.<P>WAT

resilient.... It is hard to squish 28 years with someone into little posts. I am willing to argue and get stuff out, but my w and I have a long history of dysfunctional problem solving, she uses anger alot. Whether right or wrong I have been habituated to avoiding conflict with her as much as possible, and that is accomplished by conflict aboidance type lies. This has a negative impact on me cause I am essentially a confessor, Emotional honesty is my number one EN, and it is very strong. But I don't do well with anger (feels like I am not loved, and that hurts alot), I think this is a common pattern in many dysfunctional relationships. I do not avoid consequences, that is not what I meant, my wife gets mad whenever you don't agree with her, and push your position, do you understand now? It is a control issue.

I do understand, SNL. Thank you for responding. Is it okay to ask more questions, I hope so.<P>~ During your marriage, was there ever a time you felt safe to be totally honest with your wife (no lies, no secrets)?<P>~ Knowing that control is an illusion, and knowing Emotional Honesty is your numero uno EN, and since there have been so many unsuccessful years of conflict avoidance lies, wouldn't trying to be totally honest with your wife be something you may want to explore? <P>Jo<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited July 15, 2001).]

SnL, <P>May I ask a question also? Please explain what you mean by your wife's "anger and interference". <P>RE: I have been accused of showing anger and trying to control H. Yet, it was H that got arrested and hold he needed anger management counseling. The marriage therapist we had been going to said the same thing. Now either I am good at fooling these professionals or the blame and focus is being put in the wrong place by my H. <P>Your wife & I seem to be running in a similar path. Yet you seem to be able to relate to me better than her. Therefore, my question. <P>Thanks,<BR>L.<BR>

res...~ During your marriage, was there ever a time you felt safe to be totally honest with your wife (no lies, no secrets)?<P>snl...no<P>res...~ Knowing that control is an illusion, and knowing Emotional Honesty is your numero uno EN, and since there have been so many unsuccessful years of conflict avoidance lies, wouldn't trying to be totally honest with your wife be something you may want to explore?<P>snl..yes, and it is what I am doing now, one last effort so to speak. But plz understand, is not just me. She is unhappy too, this works both ways. Mostly I can only talk about myself, but I am trying to hear and understand from her eyes too. <P>orchid..May I ask a question also? Please explain what you mean by your wife's "anger and interference". <P>snl...Anger would be over my percieved misbehaviour in an inappropriate friendship with ow. Interference would be in trying to stop/end it. This would all be perfectly normal behaviour on her part.<P>orchid..I have been accused of showing anger and trying to control H. Yet, it was H that got arrested and hold he needed anger management counseling. <P>snl...there is a difference between angry and control, vs physical altercations...a big difference. <P>orchid...The marriage therapist we had been going to said the same thing. Now either I am good at fooling these professionals or the blame and focus is being put in the wrong place by my H.<P>snl..Obviously I cannot address the particulars without a lot more info. The issue in re to anger in conflict resolution, is that if one party is ready willing and able to use anger and the other person really really dislikes anger, and prefers peace, to the point they will not go nose to nose, you have a problem. IMO anger is never ok in conflict resolution, and the responsibility lies with the one projecting it, not on the recipient. Interestingly MB principles agree with that. I am not all that intimidated, I went the distance more than once with my w, but she clearly would never give in. So when she did "go along" it was pretty much grudgingly, that destroys feeling emotionally safe with someone. I suppose she felt the same. But since her feelings were more important to me than mine, I would avoid conflict, and stuff my feelings, figuring peace was better than anger......needless to say it didn't really work, but there it is, a common pattern. <P>orchid...Your wife & I seem to be running in a similar path. Yet you seem to be able to relate to me better than her. Therefore, my question.<P>snl....well, hard to say. I am by nature quite forthright, and I don't do "defensive" much, so am willing to take my lumps here. But my w and I have a lot of history to deal with, not to mention my leaveing the marriage. <P> <BR>

uh hem, *cough cough** <P>quite frankly at the point that i gave up on my marriage i had struggled along raising 5 little babies...all 18 mo to one yr apart, putting up with a man who thot his every problem was MY fault, putting me down with every damned word he had to say. did i care i was goign to dump this man on his [censored]?? NOPE. it was ALL ME. FOR ME, selfish ME. wow...feelings were there...lust, lust lust. JOY JOY JOY.<P>at the time that it was happening, the OM and i talked about this "attraction" and "what WE were going to do about it". "stay away from each other, ect ect...kinda hard since were (us four) were all friends. <P>i konw that I THOUGHT (wasnt thinking with a brain filled with blood) i could keep this quiet. i could NOT say anything. did i feel safe to tell my H about anything?? NOPE! i realize my situation is abit different considering the abuse that came with my marriage and my situtaion. But when i finally did come clean..all it did was relieve me of the guilt to go back for more. <P>In my post......betrayers...opinoin please...there was a post that asked me when my affair first started. It has appalled me that it started back in aug. of 1998, ended in Feb 1999, rekindled in dec of 1999 and physically ended in May of 2000, all contacty has quit since Nov of 2000, and here we sit in July of 2001........ and expect him to move on??????? i think not.......bu tanyway.....back to your thread.......<P>i know that during affairs...NO ONE thinks clearly. and my theory also went....." if you are going to screw up. do it bad....make it worth your time and the punishement that will follow." wish i hadnt thot that way.<P>mercy