Posted and saved to my machine years ago... how it helps..<P>In the book Private Lies by Dr. Frank Pittman, he has a very good summary of reasons why second marriages between persons involved in an affair very seldom succeed. <P>Generally he notes that disasters are only inevitable when people use romance to jump from marriage to marriage without a rest stop between. He says that there is something inherently doomed in those marriages that begin as marriage-wrecking affairs. <P>He noted that in his practice while over half the people who get into romantic affairs end up divorced, only one-fourth marry the affairee. It is likely that over three-fourths of these affair marriages end up in divorce. He says that there is a greater likelihood that the divorcing partner will be back with the original spouse in five years that that the romantic affair will be a stable marriage at that time.<P>He gives 12 reasons for this phenomenon: <BR>· Intervention of reality<BR>· Guilt<BR>· Disparity of sacrifice<BR>· Expectations<BR>· General distrust of marriage<BR>· Distrust of affairee<BR>· Divided loyalties<BR>· The nature of infidels<BR>· The nature of affairees<BR>· Romance<BR>· Scapegoating the betrayed<BR>· Unshared history<P>Out of 100 couples, (Pittman’s sample in his book private lies) <BR>He said 50% of affairs couples divorced.<BR>But, only 12% (12) actually married OP.<BR>And then 75% of those failed (12*.75)= 9<BR>Thus only 3 married betrayers are left<P>These are the defects he lists for marriages between the spouse and the OP.<P>1) The intervention of Reality: Divorce in these marriages tends to take place very early in the marriage. During th affair, the infidel and perhaps the affairee are in a state of intensely stimulating unreality. The second marriage itself seems to be a swithc that throws the lights on and illuminates the mess that has accumulated. It is as if the romance had seemed real, while the divorce didnt. Only after the remarriage did the divorce become real enough for the lovers to see that it was all a horrible mistake. The affairs that become marriages typically were so intense they were never questioned at all. During the divorce, reality never set in sufficiently to let the romance be evaluated and questioned. The romance was so romantic on one ever got around to asking if it was sane.<P>2) Guilt.. People who have wrecked a family have inflicted much pain, and they have a lot they could feel guilty about. As reality sets in, they see many things they were overlooking. They may have felt no guilt during the affair and divorce, and the guilt they feel after the romantic marriage may come as a suprise to both of them. It is generally assumed that people who dont permit themselves to be happy must be feeling guilty about somethingm and are unhappy as a way of punishing themselves for their misdeeds. One aspect of guilt is the rluctance to enjoy ones ill-gotten gains. Another aspect of guilt is the urge to return to the scene of the crime and in some way make amends. As a romantic newlywed resists the joys of the ex-mate who was deserted so blitheyly, the new mate can feel disoriented and betrayed.<P>3) Disparity of sacrifice... Divorces are expensive luxuries. Whatever the financial cost, the emotional cost is far greater. Anyone after losing that much, will be drained, exhausted and depressed. It is particularly difficult when the exhausted survivor of a debilitating divorce marries the triumphant winner of the struggle. If the romantic partner is marrying for the first time, and especially if the courtship has been treacherous and insecure, the new mate will be ecstatic. A new couple may feel a disparity in what had to be sacrificed to bring them together. The partner who has never been divorced may have difficulty understanding the complexity of emotions toward the previous family.<P>4) Expectations.. Then there is the feeling that anything that cost this much emotionally had damn well better be worth it. The greater the sacrifices, the greater the expectations from the new marriage. Now that the promised land has been reached, it should flow with milk and honey. But instead, the new couple are just 2 tired warriors with no fight left in them. Whatever these people were expecting, the best they are likey to find now is the ordinariness of real life, the dubious peace between glorious battles. The more people enjoy the battles involved in wrecking and escaping marriages, the less they are likely to enjoy the business as usual of the new marriage that was the destination of it all.<P>5) General Distrust of Marriage.. Of course, anyone who has been unhappily married is likely to develop a strong distrust of the institution of marriage. People whose marriages fell apart during affairs are likey to end up distrusting marriages rather than distrusting affaris. People who distrust marriage have a vey hard time being in one.<P>6) Distrust of affairee..It might seem appropriate for someone to go out with them, or even to marry them, but not quite appropriate for someone to have an affair with them. Affairs are considered dishonerable acts, and peope who feel guilty for having affairs believe that they are dishonorable and their partner must be dishonorable too.<P>7) Divided Loyalties..During the affair tnd the divorce, the romantic couple isolate themselves. It is not only the betrayed spouses who are erased from awareness, but also the children, the families, friends, anyone who attempts to pull the romantic couple from the quicksand of their affair. But after the remarriage, there may be a longing to reestablish connections with families and friends and this may be more difficult than expected. Each close relationship and some that were amazingly casual may have to be renegotiated in view of the hurt caused to others.<P>8) The nature of infidels.... People who get themselves into affairs have some specific characteristics that must influence the course of their subsequent marriages. Each kind of infidel is different. Most of those who end up marrying an affair partner are romatics who drift hypnotically through this romantic high without taking much responsibility. Romantic remarriage seldom works, not only because of th unrealistic nature of romance, but also because of the reality-avoiding nature of romantics.<P>9)The nature of affairees.... Affairees want whatever they want from a relationship, jsut as everyone else does, but what makes them unusual is that they seek their goals among the married rather than the single. They choose partners who are not in position to marry them, and who are engaging in the relationship at great risk. People like this are clearly angry with marriage, and perhaps with the opposite sex. They believe marriage doesnt work, and they demonstrate that by breaking up another marriage as they find a partner for themselves.<P>10) Romance.. People who believe in the chemistry of romance dont bother to learn much about the physics of relationships. When the romance begins to fade, romantics know little about how to solve those problems that they have relied on romance to transcend. It is painful to watch a romantic relationship dissolve. It happens so suddenly, and so totally. These people have alredy demonstrated that they would rather get divorced than learn physics, so it is far easier for them to follow the same pattern.<P>11) Scapegoating of cuckolds... During the affair and divorce, the romantic couple conspired to convince each other that the defective marriage was the fault of the cuckold. To acknowledge otherwise, now that remarriage has taken place, seems a betrayal of the rescue fantasies that fed the romance.<P>12) Unshared history... Even if the new marriage survives all of these obstacles, there is one further characteristic of all second marriages: The absence of a shared history that brings familiarity torelationships that began earlier in life. If a romantic marriage has wrecked a previous marriage or two, the history of the relationship is painful to both partners, and possibly somewhat embarrasing to others. The new partners keep thinking about it and justifying it, but it is hard to talk about lightly, in the familiar, safe manner of people who can tell their old war stories without guilt. However intense their commitment, people who share a guilty past arent totally rpoud of their new marriage.<P>------------------<BR>Husband2You<BR>*****<BR>Don't make me promises <BR>Baby you never did know how to keep them well <BR>I've had the rest of you <BR>Now I want the best of you <BR>It's time for show and tell<P>'All or Nothing' © 2001 O-Town

h2u,<BR>Haven't read Private Lies (yet), I have it, glanced at it - actually I am looking at The Male Stress Syndrome, and the McGill Report, just finished How to Save Your Marriage from an Affair, Ron Edell.<P>Trying to figure out, figure out, figure out. He loves me, but he's not "in love" with me - trying to really sort that one out.<P>If I'd spend half my time on domestic needs, instead of reading and here, I'd probably have it made. At best, I am serious lacking on domestic needs.<P>How far have I gotten since the MRA - I'm letting myself down, I could be doing better. I'm hitting too much time on MB.

After Shock..<P>Yep.. look at us.. both up after 2am.. I can't sleep.. not that I'm upset or anything... but I hate sleeping alone.. So I'm here, as always.. all the time.<P>------------------<BR>Husband2You<BR>*****<BR>Don't make me promises <BR>Baby you never did know how to keep them well <BR>I've had the rest of you <BR>Now I want the best of you <BR>It's time for show and tell<P>'All or Nothing' © 2001 O-Town

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by after shock:

I'm hitting too much time on MB. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm spending ALL my time - except sleeping and eating and visiting my W - on MB. It's terrible.

-AD

<small>[ June 30, 2002, 02:37 AM: Message edited by: AD ]</small>

I can't sleep either. Of course it doesn't help that I'm having to live in a stupid hotel right by the interstate (loud) while my W frolics with OM. Sorry.<P>Man, a lot of that post is right on the money. I need to pick up a copy of that book. H2Y, did you know that my marriage started as an A? Check this out:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/010313.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/010313.html</A> <P>My post is about halfway down. I can vouch for a lot of the items on the above list.<P>I do think that the relationship that we developed after the A and out subsequent marriage are real enough to be saved and be worth saving. But I guess we'll see!<P>zen

Bumped for HumbleFish

duplicate post <p>[This message has been edited by Faith1 (edited July 27, 2001).]

Thanks for bringing that to the top. It's really good. I didn't read it the other day. I wonder if I should send it to my WS H? We don't talk much, and he doesn't like it when I "preach" or anything - so I try not these days (LB). BUt he reads my e-mails and e-cards... I wonder if he will read this or if it will help.

Bump

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Bump for the New Members<P>------------------<BR>Semper Fi,<P><B>Husband2You</B><BR>*****<BR><I>···In the valley of the blind the one eye'd man is King···</I><P>· E-mail: <B> husband2you@petroleum.org </B> · ICQ: <B><A HREF="http://wwp.icq.com/1206499" TARGET=_blank>1206499</A></B> · Formerly: <B>E m p t y</B> ·

bump<P>------------------<BR>Semper Fi,<P><B>Husband2You</B><BR>«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»<BR><I>···In the valley of the blind the one eye'd man is King···</I><P>· E-mail: <B> husband2you@petroleum.org </B> · ICQ: <B><A HREF="http://wwp.icq.com/1206499" TARGET=_blank>1206499</A></B> · Formerly: <B>E m p t y</B> ·

bumped<p>[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: Husband2you ]</p>

Bump

/\/\/\ [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>You all gotta take some time and digest this. <p>excerpt from H2Y's post: "The intervention of Reality: Divorce in these marriages tends to take place very early in the marriage. During th affair, the infidel and perhaps the affairee are in a state of intensely stimulating unreality. The second marriage itself seems to be a swithc that throws the lights on and illuminates the mess that has accumulated. It is as if the romance had seemed real, while the divorce didnt. Only after the remarriage did the divorce become real enough for the lovers to see that it was all a horrible mistake. The affairs that become marriages typically were so intense they were never questioned at all. During the divorce, reality never set in sufficiently to let the romance be evaluated and questioned. The romance was so romantic on one ever got around to asking if it was sane."<p>What does this mean? Hm..... IMHO it is like dreaming you won the lottery then wake up and find out the ticket with the winning numbers on it are on your parking ticket. Fantasy vs reality. It seemed like a real dream. Even spent the $$, now the reality is that the creditors are calling and the bill is due. Oh yea, you actually bought that surround sound home entertainment center but it doesn't fit in your home and you can't afford it. But in your dream you had won the lottery so why not?!?!? <p>Thanks H2Y.<p>L.

Bumped for Blah34

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Thanks for posting that!

Pittman's Private Lies was by far the best book I have read so far regarding affairs.

And coming from experience as one who lived and was engaged to a man who was married when I met him, I can vouch for almost every single one of those points.

The years after his divorce were among the worst I have spent with, I consider it my time in hell, he simply had to much unresolved baggage. He didn't seem to be able to separate me from his ex-wife. For instance I love kids and I adored his, but whenever we would plan a visit with them he would get very, very stressed out. If anything at all would go wrong he would start accusing me of not wanting him to have a relationship with his kids which was absurd. In his mind he kept confusing me with his ex-wife.

Although he had already started the separation from his wife when I met him (separate rooms, told his children who were from a previous marriage, etc) we still experienced almost all of the problems Pittman describes. He would have divorced his wife anyway because his children hated her and she them but it still destroyed the relationship we could have had, had he done the honorable, wise thing of divorcing before he started dating and dragging innocent parties into his mess. And not lying to me about his marital status.

This is why I am a firm believer in divorcing, then waiting a good long while before you become involved with someone else. A newly divorced or separated person just has too many issues to deal with which must be addressed first before they can have a good relationship with someone else, whether they be the one who leaves or the one who doesn't want the divorce.

My opinion only.

<small>[ March 16, 2005, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: weaver ]</small>

Yep, Pittman is a must read, second only to SAA if one is a BS.

Private Lies was my inspiration and primary resource for my Guidelines thread.