Peppermint,<BR>"Please share your special thoughts and memories from your MB past on this thread. Make some suggestions for ways to get this forum back to the safe haven that it used to be. Share some ideas for returning this site to the focused supportive place that it was for us."<P>Back to your original request........<P>I found this site in approx Mar 1998 after discovering my H's long term affair in Jan 98. I only wish I had known the MB principles prior to discovery (I would have handled things much differently) but heyy,,I had no reason to research "infidelity",,Not my H,,right?? I did research "infidelity" when I realized I was having a real problem with the pain, hurt and anger. Thanks to MB principles and concepts, the many useful suggestions and advice, and the support of positive friends, I have managed to survive and we have saved our marriage. Equally as important, I am posting this from the safety of my home, not in a jail cell which is where I was heading with that anger and desire for revenge. ( )<P>I do post infrequently, but read often. You are right in that the number of new posters daily makes it extremely difficult to keep up with everyone's story. Now, I must confess, (as many of you already know )I am not a computer genius. Getting from place to place, cutting and pasting etc, is not my specialty. Remember when we had "our story" attached to the sunglasses profile attached to our names? I realize with the new and improved formats, we have the capabilty to find each posters stories but it's alot of paging and jumping around for me,,and I'm easily lost. I wonder if we could get that back. Just a VERY short synopsis of our situation,,not a book. And also get the email address (for those that chose to reveal it) on our sunglasses profile. I often hesitate to answer a post for fear of sticking my foot in my mouth when I realize I have no clue of the posters situation. I don't know if this is possible but it sure would make it easier to research a poster. Just an idea...<P> <P> <P><BR>

Sweet, sweet Peppermint,<P>I wrote a looooooo-ng response and it was lost! And now I don't have time to recreate it! <P>Honey, how's this: I understand. I've written the same thoughts, as you know...<P>...and yes, it's sad... and yes, it's frustrating... and yes, it hurts my spirit to see the infighting (even on this very thread! Sheesh!!).<P>I love MB, been here for 2 years and counting... my FRIENDS are here, and I use the concepts in my new marriage to avoid the problems my first marriage encountered. I believe it works, even though my first marriage was not salvagable. <P>This place saved me for awhile. Now, I work on leaning on God, my H, and heck, even myself.<P>Love to all,<BR><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino

Reality check, what you just did is what peppermint was trying to avoid. I am new and I see a lot of negative things in here. If you have nothing of any great importance to the particular thread, do not post. If you feel the need to flame, slam, be mean to another, make your own thread and let the person deal with you as they wish too.<BR> For the more experienced on the board. I have read SAA, give and take, His needs her needs, and have discovered some great advice. Do you have any recomendations of other books, I am 10 months from D day and my spouse and I are doing all the right things, but I can always use more ideas. We did not have to plan A, and will never have to Plan B. Is that normal?? Or are we still in a honeymoon phase of recovery? It seems that most things just re fit once we figured out where we made the biggest mistakes. I think that to anyone getting married, you should give them a copy of Give and Take.

alexy,<P>I can't recommend many books, I only read Surviving an Affair. But it did help. (Well, it helped me but not my marriage. I'm divorced!) It sounds to me like there is a possibility that you and your H are doing well. Just be prepared for some bad days. Sometimes they just like to sneak up on you! Hope all continues to go well!<P>Mitzi

zorweb:<P>thanks for the link.. but I won't click on it. I refuse to read that stuff. I think it's more that I don't trust me for what I may want to post. I am assuming it's a link to her stuff, right?<P>I don't doubt that the anger and frustrations that anyone has posted is validated... I just want to stay away. <P>Just like what's been mentioned in this thread, I have a hard time reading some things, because it only brings me back to the hurt I don't really want to experience again. For now, I think of it as healing (because it hurts a little less each time I see or help someone else through a similar experience).<P>I see myself as many of you so called 'old timers' (I don't like that term... wise ones fits better.. but that also implies 'old'... can you tell I have age issues? LOL - I'll be 30 in 2002, I've been dreading that number my whole life! ). <P>I have a natural instinct to want to help people, it's just me. And I have to assume that those of you that have been here for so long have the same instinct. For now, I still need to be here, to ask questions, and to try and help others. But it's not something I'll want to need at some point. I just wish you all the best in 'breaking free' of this site if you need to, and can already feel how difficult a decision that will be, should you decide to do it.<P>Karen<BR>

HI alexy, and all,<BR>Torn Asunder is another good book. Helped me stay focused on the goal in the earlier months. <BR>Then I moved onto Smedes books to try to learn that elusive art of forgiveness. <BR>ANd, I am still working on it! That is not to say Smedes is not a good teacher, I am just a poor student in some areas. <BR>My h was a serial cheater and I found books by Carnes to be quite helpful during recovery. <BR>I think Chris has a book list on his website? We have posted some reviews in the past and seems he collected them?<BR> cl<BR>

I wish I had more time, but I have a couple of minutes...If this thread is still current tonight or tomorrow I will return(your greatest nightmare, right??)...<P>Peppermint and Dylan, I'll go out the door with you, but we are just going into the front yard for a breather, right??? I'm a veteran of 25 registered months here, a couple more as a lurker....<P><B>STL - </B> "humbledorkfish"?? Let's see what does that resemble?? ... A ... disrespectful judgement?? Yeah, that's the ticket...And this <I>before</I> knowing she was also posting on gloryb...Also the "attack" on Peppermint was uncalled for. I told you this before, but you take all this stuff too personally. You and Z seem to want to "lead" here, and I salute that effort because you bring perceptions and experiences here that we all need. However, you seem to be having problems with the difference between "leader" and "boss". As for HF's presence coming to a "head", why not just ignore her instead of engaging in a "battle of wits". A battle, by the way, which compared to you, she was entering unarmed.<P>When confronted with the "friction" you mention, there are <I>two</I> alternatives. Strike out against the source, or distance yourself from the cause. Seems that given the nature of this board, option 2 is always preferable.<P>Please don't use this thread to get into one of your "patented" wars with rc(even if deserved)...you are better than that...<P><B>Dylan - </B> Thanks for acknowledging my efforts to bring this issue to the table...Didn't think anyone was paying much attention to me on this...<P><B>Topie -</B> If you are giving me a choice between "old-timer" and "wise one"...guess I have to choose the former, 'cause I don't feel very wise...just lucky to have found this board and my friends on it....<P>--DeWayne--

Hi, Old Friends (and new ones)!<P>Well, Peppermint, I'll bet you didn't realize this thread was gonna be a landmine did ya?????? <P>I know what you're trying to say. Tell you the truth, I pop on a few days a week to look for old friends. I agree with motherboard (I know I spelled that wrong) there's much more commiserating than learning these days...I stop on threads talking about WS behavior and here a blast of "What disrespect! I wouldn't put up with it!" and on and on. Heck, when we posted the same things, we were met with "Now you've read the material, you KNOW this is waffling, you KNOW this is normal, you KNOW you can't control your spouse, you KNOW you need to expect this, stop reacting to the things they say and do and stay the course." <P>As to why we don't post. Heck, I'm no expert. Only have my experiences to share. Don't even agree with ALL MB principles, though I do most of them. And, like Lor said, when I seriously answered a post using principles I was ignored or, better yet, e-mailed that I didn't know what I was talking about 'cause things had been too easy for me since Robert only lived with PT for 7 months! More than once. OooooooKKKKKKKK! Not a big deal, but I come here to give back..if it doesn't help, I'll keep my trap shut, know what I mean? <P>With a good marriage now, I don't have all the time in the world (amazing how much more posting you can do when you're not sleeping at night, huh? ) I'll see a thread I think I can help and I'll search for background and try to read all I can about the couple. I know for a fact that a couple of other MBers do the same - oldies I mean. Sometimes, we just give up. Sometimes, we don't feel welcome.<P>For all the newer members...we're not experts, don't pretend to be. We're farther along on this ride and have made so very many mistakes that we know them all by heart. We try to help. Don't mean to sound patronizing either. I remember my first post. Robert had left and I wanted to die. Bozo's Deb wrote to me that it would get better, I would FEEL better. Of course, I was sure that she never felt about HER husband the way I felt about mine!!! LOL She was right. And she was offering comfort. So many "oldies" when I first came on in '99 came on and gave me the best advice in the world. And I appreciated it, even when I didn't understand it, before I even "got it", even when I disagreed. Now, I don't post because sometimes I'm made to feel as though I'm intruding. <P>Your "call to arms" for all of us to help current members was misinterpreted and met with the same sort of thing that I've found more and more often. So, I stop giving back. On the board. I keep in touch with old friends. I email new ones who email me that they WANT to hear what I have to say. Every now and then I'll stick it out there again 'cause I just want to ease someone's pain, give them hope or say SOMETHING to make them stop destructive behavior. But, most of the time, I keep my mouth shut.<P>Good to see everyone here. Hey, there's one thing I'm very proud of. Judging from the responses, no one's forgotten MB, just being quiet.<P>Love,<P>Lori

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heartpain:<BR><B>Topie -</B> If you are giving me a choice between "old-timer" and "wise one"...guess I have to choose the former, 'cause I don't feel very wise...just lucky to have found this board and my friends on it....<P>--DeWayne--<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Nope, not giving anyone a choice.. but in a screwed up way, perhaps trying to come up with a term that doesn't imply age! LOL. I don't like the term 'experts' either. IMO, there's no such thing as a life expert, so that term is inappropriate for here.<P>Does anyone have any suggestions? Actually, scratch that... I'm going to put a post on here for some... and stop taking peppermints thread off course.<P>Karen<BR>

Alexy:<BR>I'd like to say I'm sorry honey, but I'm not.<BR>STL is a pompous [censored] (and a serial cheater, too, by the way)He needs a taste of his own medicine once in a while. He's like the little brat in the playground. If he doesn't get his way, or if someone disagrees with him, he screams and yells and throws his toys at people.<BR>And the fact that he can copy things out of a dictionary "don't impress me much", as Shania Twain would say.

To mthrrhbard:<BR>I agree with you 100%. Most people here spend too much time sending <<<<<<<<<HUGS>>>>>>>>>, justifying poor behavior, and enabling each other, which just feeds on the "poor me" mentality. <P>(You wrote:<BR>"At the risk of being flamed myself, I will say that there is too much commiserating going on here. Commiserating is helpful in small doses but it can also help to keep people stuck in the same old rut and victim role if not tempered with constructive ideas on how to move up and out of the misery we all share/have shared. Sometimes posts of this nature will go on for 2 pages without the benefit of contructive ideas on how to either change the situation or view it in a different light. Commiserating at great lengths also keeps the mood of the board depressed and hopeless and I think that contributes to the lack of posting by the more experienced members. I know it does for me.") <P>

Experience People (sounds better than Old Timers, doesn't it):<P>First, what I post is <I>opinion</I>, as is much of what is posted here. The difference between opinion and judgment is in the degree of expertise one can apply to the topic at hand. If what is said stems from experience in a particular arena, then that sort of "opinion" is backed by knowledge and is therefore what is termed a "considered judgment".<P>People give credence based on performance. People are free, after they post, to take what they will from the responses, weigh it and chose what to do with the information.<P>MB has grown enormously in the past two years. As it has grown, the diversity of people here has changed. And while the overwhelming majority come here seeking aid, misery also seems to draw predators. Which is a major factor in the "breaking down of civility" that you see.<P>Also, due to the population increase, the likelihood of one's words, as set to pixels, being misconstrued increases. As I said above, most are here posting honestly: but in posting, they are posting in various emotional states, and with varying degrees of linguistic skill.<P>Most who respond to posts are doing so for one of three primary reasons: (a) to share their experience with someone expressing a condition which they have, (b) to seek deeper understanding themselves, and (c) [in a small percentage] to rabble-rouse. The previous list of motivations are necessarily broad, because each persons brings unique permutations of these categories.<P>So, invariably, in the course of the human interaction posted here, it comes to pass that even with <I>discernment</I> intent in posts can be misconstrued. (Everyone give a round of applause to WAT for again hitting the nail on the head in the beginning.) In that case one trots out one's thoughts honestly and forthrightly, as I did, and the differences in interpretation can then be settled amiciably. This is called dialog.<P>OK, so much for generalities. Now some thoughts and comments specifically.<P>Kam hit on a facet that is certainly germane: access to the boards is excessively easy. Good site navigation generally follows this sort of design. In this case perhaps (and this is a <I>considered judgment</I>), navigation to the boards should be via various main topic areas within MB itself. Certainly something the Web administrators can give some thought to. Ease of nagivation weighed against the bypassing of important information for newcomers. A possibility here is the use of cookies to track progress through the site. Get enough cookies accumulated, and the general site navigation is replaced by navigation similar to what is now there. Easily enough done (Web-designer tongue in cheek <smile> ).<P>Burn out (several mention it): Yes it is hard to post day after day, to the same sorts of questions, etc. That is why in my judgment, site navigation and tracking should be looked at. If newcomers (i.e., those without cookies) are forced to navigate in certain areas <I>before</I> the ability to post is enabled, many of the common topics will have been seen <I>before</I> they post. Which would, hopefully reduce that sort of traffic on the boards, thus giving members (junior and full) more time to respond to items of specificity. Less burn out by experienced members, more direct discussion of issues, etc. A win-win situation for everyone involved.<P>It does take tremendous energy to keep posting, particularly when one wants to devote the rule of time to one's spouse. Life intrudes at every turn, the shear numbers of posts are daunting. The number of repetitive topics about MB basics make responding a chore at times. Even just <I>reading</I> all of the threads is very difficult. Honestly, I wonder where my current zeal and energy will be in two years. Combat fatigue is ever a factor. A break from the action is often required.<P>WAT: Thanks for the striped shirt and yellow hankie.<P>RC: Congratulations, you hit 33% today. One positive, two negative. Keep up on the upward trend. Remember the previously expressed axiom on engaging in a battle of wits: (a) this is not the forum and (b) you need to better arm yourself for such an engagement.<P>Commiserating: It is an axiom that misery loves company. Again, due to the medium, reading a person's current emotional state is sometimes difficult. Deciding what course to take is not always easy. Hold their hand? Give 'em the ol' "tough love"? Something in between? If someone reads a thread and feels that there is too much of any particular approach, it is beneficial--generally--to give voice to one's opinion. Remember when so doing, however, the rules of care and protection should be balanced against the rule of honesty. <smile><P>HP/DeWayne: Just to straighten out one misconception--my posts were made knowing <I>in advance</I> that HF was posting on gloryb and has been for some time. References in the current thread(s) to her posting on gloryb reflect her <I>current</I> posts.<P>I beg to differ with you on the two options. Distancing from a controversial topic because one has differing opinions should be weighed against what one can impart by responding. None of us always makes the right choice in that regard. In any response I try to bring something unique to the discussion. If it goes counter to what others are saying/thinking, so be it. That is how dialog is established. (As we have done in the past, my friend.) When in disagreement, it can (as we have done) be settled amicably and with dignity.<P>As for differentiating between leader and boss: I am well-qualified to distinguish the difference, given my military (and civilian government) background. One leads by choice and ability, one is boss by virtue of position. We are all coequals here, so there is no "boss" syndrome. I "laid down a gauntlet" to lead, follow or get the hell out of the way. An old axiom. I would <I>hope</I> that such a statement is a motivational tool to re-energize the experienced people on this site. But again, as in any post, it is <I>my</I> opinion, albeit one backed by extensive training in leadership.<P>As to responding ascerbically to posters: I only do that when I <I>perceive</I> a fundamental injustice. If <I>my</I> perception is skewed, it is the right of other posters to so state. I have a thick skin, my feelings very, very seldom get ruffled.<P>In parting, thanks for your input, it serves as a real "reality check" in examining <I>my</I> motive(s).<P>Godspeed to all,<BR>STL

I've only made it through the 1st page and feel compelled to post - regarding greeting newbies, and people's confusion to what they are suppose to do - so if this thread has taken a turn in direction, please be patient with me.<P>I was taught by my parents and school to do research, read, figure out. I find in generality that maybe it is a generation thing. (But we all remember the panic and pain we were first experiencing, and how eventually our pain began to subside.) For some reason, people like to ask a question to get the answer - they don't want to do research, read and figure out. When we give advice we don't know the background of that person, education, social, developmental, etc.<P>I enjoy going to the library to do research - on many different topics, I am working on ADD/ADHD, child education, as well as what has been going on with my marriage. I spent 2 1/2 hours on the library catalog last week on research. I have found it is much deeper than just the man/woman relationship. I am reading books written on male psychology - (this does not make me the authority on any of the subjects listed above I am just trying to figure stuff out). People give advice/2 cents here, but the problem may be much deeper with the spouse, and only a counselor may be able to figure that out - so we have to take it with a grain of salt.<P>For you other old timers (age wise) - I miss the old card catalogs - for some reason the doggone computer research can leave you high and dry, and you have to keep digging to get the answer. <P>I understand the real old times on MB have alot of history and expertise behind them. I stayed on Just Found Out, until someone advised me I should be in In Recovery. We are all part of a phenomenon - the computer, and this marriage site helping us out with our problem. <P>I can only encourage you to reach out - reach out to help other people. It amazes me how several of my good friends are being attacked on this site, I don't know at this point, but I can only [censored] u me, they might be very hurt and decide not to return. That won't be a problem for me, because they will remain my friend, as I know how to contact them. No one here should have to "fight", I am only waiting for the time where someone attacks me (I feel like my day may come too), but I hope not.<P>I just don't understand what all of a sudden is making alot of people antagonize. I only pray that it is OP's that are trying to invade and make problems.<P>That's my cents right now.<P>((((((((((((((((((( hugs )))))))))))))))))) aftershock

It digresses from the thread ... but yes <sigh> the joy of card catalogs.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

I feel such a sadness every day when I check the boards and read some of the advice and support that is given to people here.<BR>I agree with Mthrrbrd and Lori and so many others that there is so much coddling and not enough directing or gentle reminders of the goal at hand.<BR>As for why we don't lead others to post and make things here what they once were I (along with many others) have tried and been ignored or blasted for judging newbies.<BR>I often feel compelled to post but then don't because I feel I don't have anything to offer that will be taken seriously anymore by so many new people on the boards.<P>And so I will quietly bow out like many before me, peppermint, soulloss, heartpain, Lostva...just to name a few. I will miss this place but then again I already do miss MB even though I have been here daily for going on 2 years now.<BR>It just isn't the same anymore and there isn't much we can seem to do about it.<P>Much love to all<BR>and to those friends who do have my email account please write from time to time and let me know how you are all doing. <P>God Bless<P>------------------<BR>Love and Prayers<BR>Nicole <P><p>[This message has been edited by Patient Love (edited July 28, 2001).]

<small>[ June 30, 2002, 02:40 AM: Message edited by: AD ]</small>

Well, I've thought about this all day. <P>I mainly stay away from this board and stick to the D/D board since I am divorced. No, I'm not a failure, quite the contrary! I am definately a survivor!<P>BUT, I had been coming here and reading and trying to get back into the swing of posting and giving back what was given to me when I first came here. Not anymore. <P>The rudeness, cruelty and almost total lack of respect that I've seen here in the past few days really turns my stomach. In the "good ole days", we had WS that posted here and were met with open arms. If you don't believe me, do a search for posts by Inamess. She was having an affair and was trying to stop. Did she back-slide?? You bet! But we didn't verbally attack her. Instead we treated her with love and compassion. There was none of the name calling and childish non-sense! Did it help her? Yes!<P>So, I think I'll stick to my friends at D/D where the most controversial thing we discuss is dating after a divorce! (Plus we have killer parties! )<P>Mitzi

Mitzi:<P>There are many here in the GQII who could benefit from your experience because their Plan A/Plan B path or their circumstance has them on the brink of divorce.<P>While road to recovery perspectives supply hope, the fact of surviving should equally provide hope.<P>Please post frequently. Many on the brink of divorce in this forum can benefit from your insights, I believe.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Hello All,<P>I have noticed something in myself lately. I have been reading here for over 2 1/2 years, and posting 2 years. What I have noticed is that I generally only post to people who ask questions. <P>Now this seems obvious, but there seems to be more posters who really only want comfort. Not a bad thing, but...<P>In fact, the ones I have posted to the most lately seem to be WS's. Why? They seem to be willing to listen and often do do their homework. Very strange don't you think??<P>As for the good old days, well we only had one site not the many choices now, so it was easier to keep up with people, read other stories and learn. However, with the volume of people coming here, the "good old way" is not really practical.<P>I do also think that people come here after hearing about this site from other people ( a good thing). However, it would seem that they have been told if they come here WE will help them. But reality is that only the knowledge found here and they themselves will help them. They are not so ready to believe that the hard work is theirs to do.<P>Just an opinion.<P>Interesting post and you are right there did seem to be more of a bond, but I suspect that had more to do with the number of people posting.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL:<P>Great insight and perspective on prep work, etc. Thanks!<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL