I just got back froma mini-vacation to DisneyWorld with my daughter. My W picked us up at the airport and was in a very good mood, which had me worried.<P>When I got home, I checked my W's voice mail and there were 2 from OM. A is still going strong. OM was concerned that my W called him from our house because he thought I still may be using the recorder (which I'm not) and that would jeopardize things (his words). He's paranoid that I had someone sitting outside his house watching him (I didn't). Not the news I wanted to come home to, especially on my b-day.<P>I'm tempted to tell my W I know A is still going on and ask her to move out. I realize that would be a big LB, but maybe it's time my W pursues this relationship and D, and sees what life without me is like. I've been plan A'ing as best I can, but maybe things need to be shaken up a bit.<BR>She has all the comforts of home and me meeting whatever needs I am (financial support, family support, domestic support, etc). I can't believe this is the same woman I was so in love with less than a year ago and was trying to have a baby with me. <P>sad dad

sad - First, cherish the times spent with your daughter.<P>I can't remember, how long have you been Plan A'ing? Also, please refresh my memory about OM's family status.<P>I know that you know the Plan A/B drill.<P>Other than your wife still living with you, is it time for Plan B?<P>I have often wondered what I would have done if my wife didn't voluntarily leave. If yours doesn't, you could end up like LAN/OOOO.<P>Ask Steve, but maybe a gentle push for counseling?<P>I will share my recent emotions when I discovered that my wife's affair was still in orbit despite her subtle attempts to convince me otherwise: I was relieved.<P>No, I don't think I'm a masochist.<P>Knowing her affair was still going strong, vs it being over, with her STILL resisting counseling explained the later. Further, her recent hypocritical statements (see my recent thresd to WSs) confirmed that she still won't or can't see the absurdity of what she says.<P>All this contributed to my conclusion that I'm not the crazy one. To top it off, after describing to Steve that the A was still going strong (I had previously discussed with him my suspicion that it might be over), he returned to his practice of using the word "when" instead of "if" in reference to her realization of things.<P>Enough rambling.<P>WAT

WAT,<P>I loved being with my daughter these past few days and having her all too myself. She is my world and my inspiration.<P>I have been plan A'ing since December, even though I didn't find this website until 6 weeks ago. The A was exposed at the end March. My plan A efforts have had little affect.<P>OM is is divorcing or recently divorced. No kids. I wish I had a way to contact his W, but I don't.<P>I understand what you mean about being relieved. As long as A is going strong nothing will change between us, but it's obvious she's planning her "escape" to be with him. <P>I know if I ask her to leave, she won't. She will never leave our daughter, if she could she would have already. I will not leave unless a judge tells me I have to and I will not give her the opportunity to charge me with abandonment. I just want her to know that I'm well aware the A is still going on, in spite of her improved efforts to conceal it and deny it. It may not be time for plan B and it may not be possible to do as long as we are still living together. But I feel my love for dying a little bit with each passing week.<P>sad dad<BR><p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited July 29, 2001).]

saddad,<P>I am so glad you had a great time with your daughter!! You deserved it, and so did she!! Its interesting that your W can love your daughter so much, but tear apart her world without so much as trying. I have a funny feeling, if things dont change, you are going to be the rock in your daughters world very soon.<P>I dont really have any advice here. I will leave the Plan Bing to other BS and situations closer to yours, but being a WS that has been on the comeback trail, I guess I just want to give you my support in letting her know that the A is ongoing, despite her efforts to hide it. I mean, what does she think, you are stupid? It is obvious, at least from my perspective, that she intends to change nothing. The Taker in her has taken complete control, and as you said, she has nothing to lose. She wont leave, she has you taking care of everything...I do agree with WAT, in that a call to Steve may help, if she has no plans to leave. My guess is that she is waiting for you to get your fill of the situation, and she thinks you will walk out.<P>Hang in there!! Be strong...for you and your daughter...and W, if she comes around!!<P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*<P>Trueheart

Trueheart,<P>Thanks for your support. I didn't know if mentioning that I know A is still going on is an LB. She may be puzzled that I know even with her best efforts to conceal it. I haven't mentioned OM or A in 3 months, and she probably thinks I'm clueless about it.<P>I have an appointment with Steve tomorrow. I will talk to him about asking her to leave. I know she won't, but I want her to use the opportunity to let her know how I feel. <P>I know plan A is about working on myself and showing my changes, but I've been doing that for 8 months and it just doesn't seem to matter. Hopefully Steve will be able to help.<P>sad dad<P>

sad dad- I have unfortunately been in the same spot you are about 4 mo ago. I can see you have talked to an attorney since you know the spouse that moves out can be charged with abandonment. My H moved out for a month since he refused to give up his A and I wouldnt put up with it being flaunted in my home but after talking to his lawyer he moved back in to avoid getting charged with that. Fed me all sorts of song and dance about wanting to reconcile but really didnt want to at that time. Slept on the couch for 6 wks. Would sometimes go to therapy with me but sit on the couch saying, " I dont know if my feelings will come back' and " I dont know if I can ever be happy in our marriage' etc. ! I refused to move out like you do and I wouldnt file first due to my religious beliefs and the fact that we have 3 kids. It gets to be a stalemate like in chess. One thing works in your favor though- OM will eventually get impatient and put pressure on your W to be with him and this will probably lead her to file on you or move out. If she does file I suggest you file back by telling her you are going for main custody and are going to start your life OVER! That was the only thing that truly GOT my H out of his selfish selfabsorbed FOG! ( well in addition to prayer!) H thought we could have a 'friendly cheap divorce' that we could share custody, work things out without much lawyers etc! NO WAY! I told him he would be NO EXAMPLE for our kids to follow and so I would contest things and plan to move away eventually to be near my own relatives. I know in my case OW was pressuring H to divorce me even though she had MOVED and taken a job transfer to another state. She came back to pack up her stuff and the pressure was on! H seemed to do whatever SHE asked him to. These emotional affairs are very hard to break up. but eventually something WILL happen. Let me know what Steve tells you. Just try to get YOURSELF strong while all this plays out and it will.lifeismessy

lifeismessy,<P>When it comes to custody issues, it's a woman's world. My case may be different. We both work and I spend more time with our daughter than she does because of our work schedules. We are equally the primary caregivers, but I don't know what my chances would be in a custody battle. I would want joint custody, but with my daughter living with me.<P>It is a stalemate like you said. I've been so quiet about the A hoping it would die out after being exposed, but that's not the case. I feel the need to let her know I'm aware it's still going on. That may push her over the fence towards filing for a D, but maybe that needs to happen for her to realize what a monumental ordeal divorcing is and the emotional toll it takes on all involved. I am not morally or ethically opposed to D, but I think every conceivable effort should be made before that step is taken. D under these circumstances is goes against everything I believe in.<P>I just wish she would leave. I'll let you know what Steve says.<P>sad dad <p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited July 30, 2001).]

I spoke to Steve this afternoon and told him I was thinking of asking my W to leave. He said that before doing that, I should contact a lawyer to get info on the terms of a legal separation in my state, my chances of getting custody and some other general questions just to be prepared.<P>He advised me continue to plan A until I talk to a lawyer. <BR>He said that if I decide to ask her to leave (whether a legal seperation or not), make sure I am clear that I am only doing it to keep from getting hurt any further. Anything else will come off as controlling and manipulative.<P>sad dad

Hi sad dad- yes definitely look at the legal pros and cons. Filing for separation can block her from filing for a quickie D on you- that can be strategic. And it could knock her off the fence quicker. I am like you though in that I dont want to file for divorce first. That said though, you can't indefinitely ignore an A that is being flaunted in front of you without suffering emotionally. That is disrespect of the highest degree from your spouse. Even my pastor who agreed with me that God hates divorce- ( Malachi Chapter 2) told me that God also wouldnt like me to totally lose my sense of self-respect by putting up with ANYTHING. Something to think about. I got a good lawyer when I thought my H was about to file on me- and he said that family court judges in OH take a very dim view of affairs when it comes to deciding custody agreements. What state do you live in? Be sure to check into that. My H was also under the mistaken notion that he could continue to sleep on the couch during our whole long divorce process. Au contraire according to my attorney- my lawyer said he could MAKE H move out within wks. Check into whether your wife could refuse to move out and what it would take to make her. Good luck! We both deserved better out of our marriages dont you think? One attorney I spoke to said he was so impressed with my strong commitment to staying married he said if H and I separated he'd love to take me out for a drink! lifeismessy

lifeismessy,<P>I live in Illinois. I will contact a lawyer soon before I plan my course of action. I don't want to contest D and fight for custody just to make things harder, but I don't believe a D should be easy. It's a decision that will affect the lives of 3 people forever. I don't want a D, but if it happens I truly believe I am every bit the parent my W is. Why should I concede the custody issue? Even with joint custody, I don't believe a child should spend 3 days with one parent and 4 with the other. Children need a place to call home.<P>My W has threatened D but done nothing about it. Maybe a legal seperation will push her off the fence one way or another. Someone has to break this stalemate. Can it backfire on me? Sure, but if we go on like this my love for my W will continue to diminish and the net results may be the same for my daughter. Steve told me I can't plan B while we are still living together, and I'm not ready for it anyway.<P>I spoke to my BIL today and he said both his W and our MIL have asked my W if she is having an affair. She denied it of course, but I'm sure they suspect something. The truth will come out eventually. I'm sure they're wondering why she has been so mum on the subject. She is very close with her family and it is not like her to keep them in the dark.<P>My W stayed at my BIL/SIL's house for 5 days last month to watch their son while they were on vacation. I asked him to request an itemized copy of his phone bill to see how many calls were made to OM. He agreed to do that. That info may be helpful in any divorce/custody proceedings. It might not make a difference, but it can't hurt to have it.<P>For now, I'm just going to sit tight and see if my W follows through on D. I'm not giving up. My daughter needs her daddy to be strong for all of us.<P>sad dad<P><p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited July 30, 2001).]

saddad, I don't have a lot of advice for you, but want you to know that you are doing a great job being strong for your daughter. I have lived through my h's affair being flaunted in my face for 16 months now, and know exactly what you're going through. <P>Aries55 (another poster here at MB) and I both live in Naperville, so we're not far from you. We have become very good friends through the situations that we're dealing with. Whether it's posting at MB, or a real live friend, please know that we are all here backing you up and are here to help you through this difficult time.

HIL,<P>Thanks for you support. I'm trying to be a rock for my daughter, but it's getting harder each week. I've tried so hard not to let my W see my pain, but I don't know how much longer I can do it. It's eating me up inside and I want so badly to ask her to leave, but I know she won't. Maybe I need her to see what this is doing to me, not to make her feel guilty, but just so I can get it out.<P>My W isn't flaunting the A in front of me, in fact she's lying about it to everyone. To protect me? Maybe. To save face? Definately. Because she knows deep in her heart it's wrong? I can only hope. <P>I don't know how some of you can handle it as long as you have. I take my hat off to you. <P>BTW, three couples that I'm very good friends with live in Naperville, near Washington & 95th. Beautiful area!<P>sad dad<P>

sad dad- Yes I think legal separation may be the best route for you to take. Unfortunately cheaters will avoid facing the music as long as possible to continue getting their 'fix.' These emotionally involved heavy duty affairs are similar to an addiction. The high they get off it just makes them want to continue indefinitely as long as there isnt definite consequences. There ARE consequences for you though as she continues to be selfish and self absorbed it is eating away at your self -respect and love for her. Her refusal to talk to her family about what she is doing is typical of a conflict avoider. My H was the same way- I had to tell his own brother that he had moved out to be with OW because he refused to. I know if my H had continued on and on with OW and not moved out I would have filed for a separation eventually.Sometimes the cheater actually will first be angry with the spouse for taking action to bring an end to the A but then come to ADMIRE the spouse for putting an end to the status- quo and it can change the power imbalance that is at the root of the marriage problem.Have you read James Dobson's Tough Love book? It talks about this very topic.Another good book is The Passion Paradox- it also talks about this- its out of print now but available at the library. Take care- lifeismessy

lifeismessy,<P>I will be calling a lawyer today. It's time for me to put myself and my daughter first. I have read "Love Must Be Tough". <P>sad dad

95th and Washington????? I'm at 95th and Naper/Plainfield. Very close to where your friends are.....<P>Your daughter is very, very lucky to have a dad like you. Always remember that!!! Believe me, I know how hard it gets to handle things. Sounds like you are passing with flying colors!!!

Nice to see some Illini!! I grew up in central Il and lived many years in NW burbs! Saddad, the Il courts are pretty pro-mom (sorry to say), but they are big on joint custody, from my experience. They want what is best for the kids. If you are in Cook County, you will be required, by law, to take a parenting class, TOGETHER. The courts can really give two hoots about the adults and their problems, they want the kids to be ok. The phone bill from your BIL house wont really do much in the court battle, but along the lines of your lawyer building a case, depending on what you are going for, it cant hurt. <P>A legal seperation actually is a good way to go, since it gives you as much time as you need to do a solid Plan A and see what you really want. Take the time for you to grow, get closer to your daughter, and let your wife come out of the fog!<P>Have a good day my friend.<P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you have imagined.*<P>Trueheart

I made an appointment with a lawyer next week and have calls in to 2 others. I've read some stuff on line about Illinois divorce laws and I don't believe I can file for a "legal" separation unless we are separated. I don't know what defines separation. Does it mean living apart or sleeping in separate rooms or not being intimate? My W's been sleeping on the couch for a month and we havent been intimate since November (ouch!).<P>As far as custody, I know a have little chance of winning, but I've got to try. If nothing else, it may shake things up a bit.<P>The bottom line at this point is, I don't know how much longer I can keep this pain inside. The past 2 days I've had uncontrollable fits of crying and terrible headaches. I've got to let it out for my own physical and emotional well being. I'm going to wait until I get legal advice, but I need to let her know that I'm well aware that the A is still going on and that I think she should consider leaving. A big LB? I'm sure it is, but I'd rather LB than continue on like this while my love for her slowly dies. <P>sad dad<p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited August 01, 2001).]

hurtinginil,<P>I don't feel like I'm passing with flying colors. I feel like I'm failing miserably. All my efforts have gotten me nowhere, although I guess I should look at it as a positive that she is still at home and hasn't filed.<P>I really don't know what I'm going to do. I guess hear what the lawyer(s) has to say and then do some thinking. I really believe we need a separation, but legally I don't believe it's something I can force. I know that flies in the face of MB principles, but plan A hasn't worked and plan B can't work if we still live together.<P>I am doing better today. No crying or headaches. What a roller coaster.<P>sad dad<P>

sad dad, I really am feeling for you. I know how difficult it is to make the decision to ask your wife to leave. I'm contemplating the same decision with my H, and it hurts like hell. Unfortunately, I let it go on for so long, that it will probably just push him to OW and to file.<P>How old is your daughter? Depending on whether she understands at all what is going on, that can make things really difficult, too. My almost 10 year old has pretty much figured out what's going on, and it sure makes things hard.<P>As for the bouts of crying---yes, you do need to get your emotions out. Even if your wife has to see it happen, it is necessary for your well being.<P>On a roller coaster??? Oh, yeah---I feel like I'm on that new ride at Great America---Virtual Velocity, I think it's called. Up and down at such a rapid pace that it is going to make me sick.....<P>We're all hear for you, so please let us help you through. You'll be in my thoughts and prayers.....

hurtinginil,<P>I just got an email from my W. She said we need to start talking about things (divorce). I guess I may as well ask her to leave. No point putting it off. Will it push her to file? Probably, but it least it will end the stalemate.<P>sad dad