after shock and L, thanks a bunch for the support. It really means a lot.<P>Here's a revised e-mail based on K's input. For the record, I don't have K's address, so I didn't send the original to him yesterday when the forum was on its butt.<BR>************<BR>I apologize if I appeared controlling. This was not my intent. I understand your frustration, so I ask that you please understand mine. None of this is easy. Any time you need to vent, you can yell at me on voice mail or type messages WITH CAPITAL LETTERS THAT MAKE IT LOOK MAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! : )<P>We absolutely need to have a policy of joint agreement on all issues, especially those associated with <son>. I share your desire that he looks and feels good. I think part of the problem the other morning was the rush that occured because Taz was not expecting you. We usually talk each morning before she takes <son> to camp about the day's activities, clothes, brushing teeth, etc. Some mornings they run late; it's just camp. We hadn't talked yet that morning because of my normal early meeting on Mondays.<P>We will be leaving for the beach on Monday, so early church is OK with me.<P>The easiest way to communicate is to leave messages on the answering machine for us at home or on my voice mail at work.<P>Please do not use Taz as an intermediary. It is not her job and creates an opportunity for misunderstanding. Please communicate to me as I requested in my letter. It is simply too painful for me to do otherwise.<P>The separation agreement specifies that you will pay me for childcare expenses, therefore, please do not pay Taz directly.<P>As far as dividing our belongings is concerned, please make a proposal about specific things. I am uncomfortable with not being present when things are moved, so I want to be present when this occurs.<P>I will have an itemized expense list for you before we leave for the beach. Thanks for the $2K. I will integrate the list you provided so that we both have a more complete understanding of what's what.<P>We're trying to arrange for <son's friends> to go to Busch Gardens with us on Friday. Please tell me your desires for Saturday and Sunday. If you want, we can start the weekends with you having him the 1st and 3rd instead of me since this is where we are at the moment, but I would still like to have him on the 18th. <P>Dave<BR>*****************<P>Better?<P>Dave

Any time you need to vent, you can yell at me on voice mail or type messages WITH CAPITAL LETTERS THAT MAKE IT LOOK MAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! : )<P>Plan B is NO CONTACT (except with kids involved), but this invite to vent will be taken as an invite to email and/or call whenever she wants. Keep it short and simple, no invites of communication other than issues regarding your son.<BR>

I'm sure you'll get a lot of great input, but I'll start with agreeing with taking out the offer for her to vent with capital letters.<P>I also agree with short and to the point (facts).... for some reason, these ws's can only handle one or two issues at the most. (fog????)<P>You may also simply want to state that you agree with wanting to have son look and be ready...and leave it at that... (as in, don't bother with any excuses... ).. I suppose you could instead add that her input re: this issue with son is appreciated. <P>I've had to do that also.. Apparently, my H told someone in his family that he couldn't "parent" with me because I wouldn't let him, aka "controlling". (don't get me started on that one)... I conceded and welcome his input re: kids... because to do otherwise is the biggest LB there is for him. <P>Good luck.

Dave:<P>The opening paragraph would probably be best as:<P>I apologize if I appeared controlling. This was not my intent, and I'm really sorry that I came across that way.<P>(and that's all).<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The separation agreement specifies that you will pay me for childcare expenses, therefore, please do not pay Taz directly.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Another sentence about how you would like to be paid is appropriate. Mail, direct deposit into an account? Don't leave it open to her interpretation---you're setting yourself up for more misunderstandings.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am uncomfortable with not being present when things are moved, so I want to be present when this occurs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Instead, just state that you'd like to be present when the stuff is moved, to help the process go smoothly. The phrasing that you have gives the appearance that you're worried that she'll come in and loot you (which might be a very appropriate fear). <P>Yes, much better! <P>

<p>[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: LonelyAtNight ]</p>

OK, we had a bunch of simultaneous posts going on here. Let me try to catch up with those who posted after Orchid. <P>SNL - thanks for your input. I take all input seriously and I actually always read yours to others and consider your point of view. Let me say that I believe your suggestions are valuable. This forum should not be just a cheering section.<P>I hear you, SNL, and you're probably right about the power struggle. In fairness to myself, I probably come across worse on this forum than in the flesh with regards to the "controlling" thing. This was never a complaint of my wife's. But I have an idea to factor it into my response to her (see below).<P>JB, trueheart, thanks for your input.<P>Ok try this:<BR>****************<BR>I apologize if I appeared controlling. This was not my intent. I understand your frustration, so I ask that you please understand mine. None of this is easy. Any time you need to vent, you can yell at me on voice mail or type messages WITH CAPITAL LETTERS THAT MAKE IT LOOK MAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! : )<P>Input from you about my faults, like "controlling" is very important to me. I can't fix things I'm not aware of. This is exactly why I've asked you in the past to talk to my counselor. He hasn't lived with me. I have been trying hard to overhaul my self so I can be a better person. This is vitally important for <son> so that I can be the best father I can be and it's important for me so I can be the best I can be.<P>We absolutely need to have a policy of joint agreement on all issues, especially those associated with <son>. I share your desire that he looks and feels good. I think part of the problem the other morning was the rush that occured because Taz was not expecting you. We usually talk each morning before she takes <son> to camp about the day's activities, clothes, brushing teeth, etc. Some mornings they run late; it's just camp. We hadn't talked yet that morning <BR>because of my normal early meeting on Mondays.<P>We will be leaving for the beach on Monday, so early church is OK with me.<P>The easiest way to communicate is to leave messages on the answering machine for us at home or on my voice mail at work.<P>Please do not use Taz as an intermediary. It is not her job and creates an opportunity for misunderstanding. Please communicate to me as I requested in my letter. It is simply too painful for me to do otherwise.<P>The separation agreement specifies that you will pay me for childcare expenses, therefore, please do not pay Taz directly.<P>As far as dividing our belongings is concerned, please make a proposal about specific things. I am uncomfortable with not being present when things are moved, so I want to be present when this occurs.<P>I will have an itemized expense list for you before we leave for the beach. Thanks for the $2K. I will integrate the list you provided so that we both have a more complete understanding of what's what.<P>We're trying to arrange for <son's friends> to go to Busch Gardens with us on Friday. Please tell me your desires for Saturday and Sunday. If you want, we can start the weekends with you having him the 1st and 3rd instead of me since this is where we are at the moment, but I would still like to have him on the 18th. <P>Dave<BR>*****************

OK, one more time.<P>Thanks for the additional suggestions.<BR>******************<BR>I apologize if I appeared controlling. This was not my intent. I'm really sorry if I came across that way.<P>Input from you about my faults, like "controlling" is very important to me. I can't fix things I'm not aware of. This is exactly why I've asked you in the past to talk to my counselor. He hasn't lived with me. I have been trying hard to overhaul my self so I can be a better person. This is vitally important for <son> so that I can be the best father I can be and it's important for me so I can be the best I can be.<P>We absolutely need to have a policy of joint agreement on all issues, especially those associated with <son>. I share your desire that he looks and feels good.<P>We will be leaving for the beach on Monday, so early church is OK with me.<P>The easiest way to communicate is to leave messages on the answering machine for us at home or on my voice mail at work.<P>Please do not use Taz as an intermediary. It is not her job and creates an opportunity for misunderstanding. Please communicate to me as I requested in my letter. It is simply too painful for me to do otherwise.<P>The separation agreement specifies that you will pay me for childcare expenses, therefore, please do not pay Taz directly.<P>As far as dividing our belongings is concerned, please make a proposal about specific things. I prefer to be there so the process goes smoothly.<P>I will have an itemized expense list for you before we leave for the beach. Thanks for the $2K. I will integrate the list you provided so that we both have a more complete understanding of what's what. I think it's appropriate to send lists/payments back and forth via <son> or Taz as long as they don't have to communicate anything verbally. Do you agree?<P>We're trying to arrange for <son's friends> to go to Busch Gardens with us on Friday. Please tell me your desires for Saturday and Sunday. If you want, we can start the weekends with you having him the 1st and 3rd instead of me since this is where we are at the moment, but I would still like to have him on the 18th. <P>Dave<p>[This message has been edited by worthatry (edited August 01, 2001).]

Dave, <P>Outstanding!! To the point, concise, non judgemental...damn what a great group of proofreaders....hell of a group effort huh? <P>Trueheart

WAT,<BR>Sorry to drop this on you - meant to mention it in my previous post & FORGOT it.<P>Your mention in your e-mail about making a proposal about "what she wanted". I am only drawing on previous experience in my D (85/86). Since (x) H left . . . he really was not entitled to the stuff until after D was final. He wanted me to give up "stuff". Ended up being a bone, but I did not split up stuff until the very end (I finally knew it was a losing battle, and I gave up the fight). (note: no children from that marriage). Still, property can be a heated battle, and like my dad always impressed upon me - that possession is 9/10's of the law. It winds up a bargaining tool somewhere in the end.<P>This is just a clue - you are working on that Plan B stuff - why open up the discussion to have her tell you what she wants). Plan B is suppose to be - either/or, but in this case you are adding another dimension.<P>Hope you haven't hit "send" YET. aftershock

Wow Dave,<P>Everytime I leave town, I come back to find that you posted a topic for assistance and I missed returning the good support you have given me.<P>Let me just say that the final draft looks good. I agree with the good advice K has given you.<P>You are a real trooper.<P>take care,<BR>cleo

Is better, but I have issues with it. I am writing a longer post if you want to wait a while for my additional thoughts.

Ok Dave, here's some more, and maybe of use to others in similar circumstances, again remember that I am only one kind of ws, and that this is my first and last A. And that both ow and I concluded on our own that we had to give up our relationship although we still feel very much for each other, sort of ethical ws I guess (is that an oxymoron?). I am more focused on the whys of human behaviour, and what to do about stuff. So I am proceeding into the MB stuff (after a 4 month rocky start), and intend to give this (and my w) a good faith effort.<P>One thing I have been doing a lot of (and pestering all of the bs here about), is trying to figure out what the heck all of this is about (love, marriage, vows, committments, duty, behaviour, psychology, etc.). One thing I harp on, and see alot of, is controlling behaviour. This is difficult to talk about for two reasons, one is that we all control, we all have an agenda, so if we make the accusation too broad, everyone is guilty. But the converse is true too, if we hide and say well everyone does it, then we excuse ourselves. It is easy when we think of the abusive controlling monster that watches their spouse like a hawk, and requires permission for every breath their spouse takes, who would defend that? No one, run em out of town on a rail. What is less clear, and far more common, is the "nice", hard-working", "reasonable", likable person....who also "needs" to have things go the way they want them too. How do we tell? Well the harley's have the answer, if YOUR spouse feels you are being angry, disrespectful, annoying, controlling, etc.......then YOU are GUILTY. <P>As a ws I must tell you I absolutely love this. For the first time in years my wife actually must listen to me, and act on my feelings, it is positively euphoric. She has never been abusive, or anything, but she always used anger, and emotional coercion against me, and I hated it, and eventually hated her (or more accurately hated her behaviour). Was I a saint? Heck no, were her complaints justifyed, yes quite often, but she also made it clear I would never measure up, would never be "right" enuf. So eventually I do what many ws do, I ran away, it was emotional survival, and I ran into the arms of another ws who had similar difficulties, that is a powerful match. We "took care" of each other. IMO that is what those of you in similar circumstances must do, recognize if that defines your relationship, and STOP. It took my wife a while, but she has stopped, the silence is deafening, and in so doing I am looking at her again as someone I may want to spend time with, rather than avoid, or only transact "business" with (kids, money, stuff). But the moment she reverts (as she does a bit, heck no one is perfect) I feel myself close up, and my feet start moving....away. Ya see dave, we are not objects to be "won", persuaded", "coerced" back, we are people who need to be heard, by someone we trust. Your wife clearly does not trust you, that is not her problem, it is yours. Not to say that maybe she doesn't want to hear, or won't give you a fair chance etc. But if you keep acting in ways that remind her of why she left (if that is relevant), to escape the "control" then she may never feel safe enuf to give you the chance you want. I hear you re coming on stronger here, and I see that, but unless you have multiple personality disorder (do you?), you are not 2 different people. So what we see here, is what your wife (who knows you far better than we do) sees between the lines...ya know?<P>Plz keep in mind I am not diagnosing you (or your wife), I am just responding to what I see and feel, as straightforward as I can, and I can be completely wrong.<P>re your latest rendition of the email....<BR>what um...... sends negative vibes trough me is your choice of words, many imply you have the answers, you know whats what, you have this figured our...... and even if you are "right" the rightness gets lost in the feelings you invoke. <P>wat...I apologize if I appeared controlling. This was not my intent. I understand your frustration, so I ask that you please understand mine. None of this is easy. Any time you need to vent, you can yell at me on voice mail or type messages WITH CAPITAL LETTERS THAT MAKE IT LOOK MAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! : )<P>snl....Why should she understand you, and why do you tell her too (and it felt like tell to me, not ask). She is an adult, you don't think her capable of recognizing you are frustrated? Why do you speak to her like she is a child dave? Ditto the yelling, if she wants to express anger, let her decide when and how, you are limited to how it makes you feel. To be frank, that whole paragraph made my blood boil, and I am not even married to you <P>wat....We absolutely need to have a policy of joint agreement on all issues, especially those associated with <son>. <P>snl...Lose the absolutely, again you are projecting power. Maybe she disagrees, maybe she doesn't want a poja, maybe she wants you to do what she tells you..I dunno, but maybe you should ask. The key to this kind of abuse (and it is verbal abuse dave <A HREF="http://www.verbalabuse.com" TARGET=_blank>www.verbalabuse.com</A> ) is when you make categorical statements implying the other party must agree. Instead, I think it very important we have a poja re son, what do you think w?<P>wat...I share your desire that he looks and feels good. I think part of the problem the other morning was the rush that occured because Taz was not expecting you. We usually talk each morning before she takes <son> to camp about the day's activities, clothes, brushing teeth, etc. Some mornings they run late; it's just camp. We hadn't talked yet that morning because of my normal early meeting on Mondays.<P>snl...The share part was good, went downhill from there. Why not just say sorry w, I screwed up, and will try to do better in future, any suggestions? Instead you spent a whole paragraph excusing yourself, which implies she shouldn't have complaints about you.... do you see? It gets real old when the spouse always has some well thought out and reasonable explanation refuting the other spouses complaints.....you may be intellectually right, but you have completely missed the emotional boat.<P>wat...We will be leaving for the beach on Monday, so early church is OK with me.<P>snl...under normal circumstances this would probably be fine. But under hypersensitivity circumstances it does not. She made a request, instead of having the opportunity to say sure w, if you want him for church I will adjust, you instead showed how since it wouldn't inconvienience you you would be the nice guy and comply....big deal. Not trying to be mean, but do you see what you are projecting, this whole email is about you, is that what you want? And if so, how in the world do you think she is going to come to believe what she wants is important to you, just because it is what she wants? She doesn't want acceptance on your terms, your vision of caring, reasonableness, or anything else. She wants to know she is important to you because she exists. <P>wat...The easiest way to communicate is to leave messages on the answering machine for us at home or on my voice mail at work.<P>snl....That is ok to a point, but should ask if that meets her needs, or does she have any other suggestions, you are open to all ideas.<P>wat...Please do not use Taz as an intermediary. It is not her job and creates an opportunity for misunderstanding. Please communicate to me as I requested in my letter. It is simply too painful for me to do otherwise. The separation agreement specifies that you will pay me for childcare expenses, therefore, please do not pay Taz directly.<P>snl....More orders!!!!! Plz doesn't cut it. You may have to be firm on this, and is your right to do so, but if you do, make it less demanding. Was ok to mention is painful, but be careful, we ws are very very sensitive to emotional manopulation, it better be darn painful to you dave, or she will see through it.<P>wat...As far as dividing our belongings is concerned, please make a proposal about specific things. I am uncomfortable with not being present when things are moved, so I want to be present when this occurs.<P>snl...K addressed this (and had so other good ideas).<P>wat...I will have an itemized expense list for you before we leave for the beach. Thanks for the $2K. I will integrate the list you provided so that we both have a more complete understanding of what's what.<P>snl...Ask her if she wants the list integrated. The goal is to empower the other spouse (if they feel controlled) as much as possible. <P>wat...We're trying to arrange for <son's friends> to go to Busch Gardens with us on Friday. Please tell me your desires for Saturday and Sunday. If you want, we can start the weekends with you having him the 1st and 3rd instead of me since this is where we are at the moment, but I would still like to have him on the 18th. <P>snl...sounds good.<P>Hope I am not too much of a pain in the butt here, but now having something from your w (the email), I have a better sense of how frustrated she is with you. If you want I will comment on what I "heard" in her words to you. The hardest thing to come to grips with is when you are trying to be nice, and caring, and reasonable, but think somehow the other person does not get it, it is really hard to accept that maybe you are still the one not getting it. I see this regularly here, some of the bs observations and comments positively make me cringe, this is indeed hard stuff, and every situation is unique (but also the same). Hopefully my observations re the issues I feel as a ws are of some help to you all.<P><BR>

Dave,<P>I liked the last rewrite. As always take K's advice. He's a wise man. glad that you have reworked it. <P>funny how you can see both sides to the issue when it is not you.<P>My H freaked when I tried to stop him from having OW around boys (did stop the night thing), he threatened me with the witch lady shrink report & tons of other stuff. Now that he has been servedd I think things are going to get nasty, he hate to lose. I will most likely roll over, I always have, unless my lawyer won't let me.<P>Good luck, there has to be a bettr way.<P>

SNL - by all means, tell me what you read in her message.<P>I had aready made a few changes you suggested, thinking pretty much along the lines of trying not to be so "right" about my statements.<P>I am trying to be open minded about the control issue. Maybe it doesn't matter, but she never raised this issue before. I honestly don't know if I'm over bearing or not. My initial reaction would be that she's the controlling one. She had the strong will and the way of treating me like what I did was never good enough. I could never please her in the later years. Anyway, maybe you're right. How can we tell?<P>Dave

Dave,<P>I liked several of snl's suggestions as well.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Input from you about my faults, like "controlling" is very important to me. I can't fix things I'm not aware of. This is exactly why I've asked you in the past to talk to my counselor. He hasn't lived with me. I have been trying hard to overhaul my self so I can be a better person. This is vitally important for <son> so that I can be the best father I can be and it's important for me so I can be the best I can be.<P>We absolutely need to have a policy of joint agreement on all issues, especially those associated with <son>. I share your desire that he looks and feels good.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Maybe change this to:<P>Input from you about my faults, like "controlling" is very important to me. I'm trying to work on improving my behaviors, and the feedback from you is really helpful (both positive and negative). This is a reason that I've asked you to talk to my counselor---he hasn't lived with me. I have been trying hard to overhaul my self so I can be a better person---both as a husband to you and as a father to <son><BR> <BR>I would like to work with you to establish an agreement on all of our issues, especially those associated with <son>. I do share your desire that he looks and feels good.<P>It's shaping up very nicely.

Seems I copied the wrong letter into post, here are some additional comments on your updated letter.<P>wat...I apologize if I appeared controlling. This was not my intent. I'm really sorry if I came across that way.<P>snl...that feels good.<P>wat...Input from you about my faults, like "controlling" is very important to me. I can't fix things I'm not aware of.<P>snl...good.<P>wat.. This is exactly why I've asked you in the past to talk to my counselor. He hasn't lived with me. I have been trying hard to overhaul my self so I can be a better person. This is vitally important for <son> so that I can be the best father I can be and it's important for me so I can be the best I can be.<P>snl....I can't say why exactly but your usuage of words, like exactly, vitally, absolutely etc. send shivers down my spine.<P>wat...As far as dividing our belongings is concerned, please make a proposal about specific things. I prefer to be there so the process goes smoothly.<P>snl...Why not just say you would like to be there, and would that be ok with her? (you can always still be there even if she does not agree).<P>I will have an itemized expense list for you before we leave for the beach. Thanks for the $2K. I will integrate the list you provided so that we both have a more complete understanding of what's what. I think it's appropriate to send lists/payments back and forth via <son> or Taz as long as they don't have to communicate anything verbally. Do you agree?<P>snl...Don't like appropriate, you do seem to use alot of power words dave, why not just say useful, and is good that you asked if she agrees.<P><BR>

Wow! Missing one day here, and I missed out this almost completely! We've got such good help on this board! I hope I never get to Plan B, but I know you guys will help me through it!<P>wat, I just have one thought - hit me if you want, and I may be wrong... what's that sandwich technique where you put the meat of the message in the middle of two soft peices of "bread"... you know what I mean? Your latest draft starts out humbly and welcomes any reader to keep reading. Can you end it that way too? To leave the reader (your W) with a healthy feeling about the message? I don't have any specific suggestions - just maybe think about. I think it's a great e-mail like it is, and you are working so hard to make it good! It would turn a grade A letter into an A+ perhaps.<P>hugggzzzzz.. Good for you! Maybe if we all took such care in our communication methods, we would all understand each other better!<BR>

Hi Dave ~<P>I just want to put in my 2 cents! <P>I think SNL's take is absolutely right on target.<P>I found that when I made exactly the type of adjustment to my H as SNL describes, that he became much more encouraged about trying to rebuild our marriage.<P>I had to let go of being "right". Once I stopped treating him like a small child that had to be tolerated and taught to do better, and once I started treating him and his opinions, feelings and desires with respect, that's when the turn around happened.<P>I started asking him what he thought about what "we" should do, and started LISTENING. Instead of jumping in to argue MY side of any issue, I swallowed my pride and my "rightness" and all of a sudden, my own attitude towards him changed. Because you know what? I was so busy being right, that I hadn't seen or heard the many valuable suggestions and advice that my H did have for me. I suddenly found that he was a man that I could respect in many many ways. He became much more in my eyes than just my WS alcoholic spouse.<P>It's rather subtle change in attitude, and not always easy to point out. But I think SNL has got it exactly right.<P>--BR<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

I just wanted to tell you that I think K's suggestions for your e-mail were great. SNL was right on in many things he commented about. The control thing.....funny.....when I think way back to my divorce my ex made comments about my trying to control him or my always having to be in control and I remember feeling like he was using the moment of our divorce to finally try and gain control. Yuck.....nobody should try to control anybody because it backfires. One more thought......when I first read your post my initial thoughts were that her e-mail was from a woman that really was finished and moving towards a divorce. Very business like (although attorney's suggest this attitude). I'm not convinced that the two of you will ever be together again as man and wife but I think the two of you could co-parent very well. Both of you, despite your stubbornness, anger and control issues, really care about your son. If anything during your Plan B were to maybe bring her around it would be how you handle your son and your conversations with her in regards to your son. For the record, I do not believe that no communication when you have children is a good thing. Best of luck to you.

WAT:<P>Keep it as short and succinct as you can. Keep any statements as unambiguous as you can (re: receiving childcare payments: be specific in how it will be accomplished).<P>Try, as much as possible, to set a neutral tone. Some of the comments here border on Plan A implementations ... and while it is important to project your self-improvement for (a) the marriage and (b) your son, explaining it in the context of a communication with Plan B invoked is perhaps stretching the Plan B. Your call on that.<P>As much as possible, use the "I" approach instead of the "you" approach. It sets a less accusatory tone. Use "you" if it is something about your wife that is positive and that you wish to highlight, but see above re: thoughts on Plan B and boundaries.<P>Just some random thoughts, really, that occurred while reading your posts and the responses therein.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL